Lakenheath F-15 down, North Sea

[Beatts]

Reports of an F-15 down from Lakenheath in North Sea. Three KC-135R in the area now.

[ORAC]

Fingers crossed, the water will still be very cold at this time of year.

[chopper2004]

Reports of an F-15 down from Lakenheath in North Sea. Three KC-135R in the area now.

Plus Hull based S-92 and TASMAN Cobham Falcon, saw on ADSb Coast Guard S-92

cheers


https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/960x720/65741e55_c0ae_4a03_aa5e_3acb2cf47cbd_1ab2c4e3d089b7ee74f218e 4ffbe62b4b12724c8.jpeg

[ORAC]

https://www.arrse.co.uk/community/threads/lakenheath-f-15-down.300441/


https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/900x1600/eaizh3yxyaerpvz_807ba60f3c3796af08ed82b08bbcc7c50e6bcf3b.jpg

[ORAC]

https://twitter.com/bealejonathan/status/1272467210477473792?s=21

[ORAC]

One report that the pilot ejected. Humberside RESCUE912 Coastguard helicopter has been scrambled.

[hoss183]

Lets hope he/she is ok. With an EPIRB and a quick response one would hope.

[dead_pan]

Reports of an F-15 down from Lakenheath in North Sea. Three KC-135R in the area now.

Hope there is a good outcome for this.

I believe the KC-135s are there for other reasons (supporting an ongoing MYTEE B-52 flight), unless they've been called in to support the SAR effort, which would be unusual.

[ORAC]

From reports I believe the crash happened just east of Flamborough. The KC-135s were in a towline well to the east.

The four ship reportedly working D323, which means the.crash happens well west of the play area.

https://twitter.com/bledwine/status/1272487318910316544?s=21

[ORAC]

https://twitter.com/g1lev/status/1272489029754392576?s=21

[SATCOS WHIPPING BOY]

Rumours of a collision with another F15, which recovered safely to Lakenheath with a cracked canopy
unlikely. I think folk are seeing Panther's return to Lakenheath just now on a 7700 and putting 2+2 together to get 5.

Events are several hours apart.

[hoss183]

E3 seems in the wrong place (related to RNLI headings and reports) I suspect there's an exercise going on and the E3, KC135 and some of the RN further south (Tideforce and others) were doing their own thing.
Having said that, i guess it can get a fix on a EPIRB from a distance, no need to circle the crash area.

[Fortissimo]

E3 seems in the wrong place (related to RNLI headings and reports) I suspect there's an exercise going on and the E3, KC135 and some of the RN further south (Tideforce and others) were doing their own thing.

The E3 seems to be in exactly the right place for optimum use of its radar system. If it is too close the area of interest disappears into the cone of silence - the radar can't see through the fuselage or wings.

Fingers crossed for a successful outcome.

[Green Flash]

Oh, here's hoping upon hope but the SAR cab is now giving it maximum licks in the direction of Hull, fingers crossed that the POB has increased by one.

[SATCOS WHIPPING BOY]

Oh, here's hoping upon hope but the SAR cab is now giving it maximum licks in the direction of Hull, fingers crossed that the POB has increased by one.
Certainly hope. The one going reciprocal does not bode well though. Could just be a refuel changeover.

Fingers remain firmly crossed.

[Suvarnabhumi]

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/920x2000/97efd7e3_95bd_4344_9d99_f00dedcf2785_30bd4a5193664e500d911c5 0f4f091511e95adcb.png
Cobham Falcon 20 👍🏻

[SATCOS WHIPPING BOY]

From reports I believe the crash happened just east of Flamborough. The KC-135s were in a towline well to the east.

The four ship reportedly working D323, which means the.crash happens well west of the play area.

https://twitter.com/bledwine/status/1272487318910316544?s=21
Just noticed this Orac. D323 group of areas is huge and mainly comes close to the coastline. Some even inland. If they were meant to be in D323 play area then that is where they were, not "well west of..."

[medod]

In a tweet timed 1257 BST RAF Lakenheath state that sadly the pilot is still missing.

https://mobile.twitter.com/48FighterWing/status/1272498471405314048

[Kabobble]

There's a lot of gear in the air over the North Sea right now. KC-35 that was holding directly over the area is now enroute back to Mildenhall.

At least two Ospreys, two eurofighters, a C130, and another Eurofighter over Lakenheath, with another E3 (additional to the one in the North Sea) over East Anglia. This is in addition to the dozen or so seacraft and the second SAR S92 of the day in the area.

Someone is putting a lot of eyeballs in the sky, presumably before nightfall. RAF and USAF tankers are both doing laps.

Does anyone know what visibility is like in the search area?

[gums]

Salute!

In the area of the most experienced air defense radar system in the world, I find it hard to fathom not having a position for a crash or loss of contact within a mile of the event.

Maybe one of the Brits here can explain to this old interceptor pilot.

Gums asks....

[harrogate]

Rescue chopper just returning to Himberside direct from search area.
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/940x2000/screenshot_20200616_003236_chrome_6798c5d526fefe51f7641b3500 9144ca23f683c6.jpg

[Auxtank]

There's a lot of hardware and a lot people working hard out there at the moment gums.
Can't be a straightforward situation.

[Jonty]

From what I understand the vis is down to zero in places

[nowhereasfiled]

Anything to suggest he/she managed to punch out before impact?
6+ hours is a dangerously LONG time to be floating about in the North Sea of all places.

Fingers crossed the airman is found alive and complaining.

[AnglianAV8R]

Coastguard 913 (S92) just arrived back at Humberside Airport from search area.
The SAR choppers and RNLI lifeboats appeared to go to a fairly well defined area in the course of their search ops.
Not sure how it can be suggested a position isn't known ?

[Twitter]

Early days Gums... That used to be the refueling training area and then the fighters would go off and do interceptions.
A few possibilities for bumps - apart from the usual system failures.
I am sure the mil. radar station concerned had a fix if the incident was reported at the time.
Good luck to all concerned.

[mercurydancer]

Vis is fine from what I can see, 13km at least. I can see the sea as far as Redcar from where I live. Lots of activity around 10 am but not a lot since.

[harrogate]

From what I understand the vis is down to zero in places

Shipping forecast for Humber and Dogger both state 'very poor visibility.

[SAR Bloke]

Salute!

In the area of the most experienced air defense radar system in the world, I find it hard to fathom not having a position for a crash or loss of contact within a mile of the event.

Maybe one of the Brits here can explain to this old interceptor pilot.

Gums asks....

You are making an assumption that they don’t have that information. Even when you know the exact location from radar then it is not always as easy to find a ditched aircraft as you might think, a single person even harder (although presence of a parachute might help). Add winds aloft and sea current movement then the ejectee could potentially be some distance from the aircraft. PLBs/EPIRBs help but they aren’t always reliable. Once you found the person, recovery can also take some time depending on the situation. Fingers crossed that the pilot has been found and is ok.

[nowhereasfiled]

Lots of RNLI and civvie boats converging on what can only be the search area

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1326x398/4c6ff1d7_4aa2_4642_8412_74a28407c2af_e7255e40f77982c2d79ad59 6281ea460ce4c97f9.png

[wiggy]

Salute!

In the area of the most experienced air defense radar system in the world, I find it hard to fathom not having a position for a crash or loss of contact within a mile of the event.

Maybe one of the Brits here can explain to this old interceptor pilot.

Gums asks....

Not sure about the "kit" now but many years ago I was involved loosely and briefly in SAROPs (as best you can in an F4) for another wings aircraft off Skegness..( a bit to the south of the area of today's search)..we had a last known position (from Air Defence) to within a mile but sadly saw nothing..I don't think the Nimrod and then helos that took over from us fared any better..

Chuck in a bit of low viz ( sea fog/"Haar") and it can be a demanding environment for SAR.

[zed3]

I was driving along the Marine Drive in Scarborough at around 1140 and noticed that Filey Brigg and Flamborough Head to the south could not be seen due to mist.

[mercurydancer]

9 degrees sea temperature as measured at Redcar RNLI now.

[USERNAME_]

According to the BBC defence correspondent, wreckage has been found, but no pilot.

https://twitter.com/bealejonathan/status/1272537954158854144?s=21

[Auxtank]

****e vis has hampered the operation since mid morning.
Red areas denote vis < 2.5NM though has progressively cleared during the day.

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/582x499/dgfa1_ff511b555ab0d268332253d80b234efc40c81ccb.jpg

[gums]

Salute SARBloke!

I flew combat SAR two tours in SEA, and I get your point. Never worked the ocean, but in the jungle we had to get a fix within a 100 yards to get the Jolly close.


Our basic procedure was to use the ADF feature of our radio and then do a cloverleaf to get another LOP crossing 90 deg from first pass. A visual was worth a million dollars of avionics, just as it is today in the A2A arena.

I have a bad feeling about this one.

Gums sends...

[orionsbelt]

Current EGNJ 151420Z 05006KT 010V100 4500 HZ SCT007 BKN013 20/16 Q1016 and this is 10/20 Kmtr inland, Suggest that the dew point / temp and wind were perfect for thick fog this morning which must have made terrible conditions for the search.
Would suggest it was a lot worse this morning, and also take a look at the current Met Office Satellite Visible image.
***
Note the Temp /dew points
METAR/SPECI from EGNJ, Humberside (United Kingdom).
SA 15/06/2020 11:50->METAR EGNJ 151150Z VRB01KT 3500 BR SCT006 BKN010 17/14 Q1017=
SA 15/06/2020 11:20->METAR EGNJ 151120Z VRB02KT 3000 BR BKN006 16/14 Q1017=
SA 15/06/2020 10:50->METAR EGNJ 151050Z VRB03KT 2600 BR BKN005 16/14 Q1017=
SA 15/06/2020 10:20->METAR EGNJ 151020Z VRB03KT 2600 BR BKN005 15/14 Q1017=
SA 15/06/2020 09:50->METAR EGNJ 150950Z VRB02KT 2600 BR BKN005 15/14 Q1017=
SA 15/06/2020 09:20->METAR EGNJ 150920Z VRB03KT 2600 BR SCT003 BKN005 14/14 Q1017=
SA 15/06/2020 08:50->METAR EGNJ 150850Z VRB01KT 2600 BR SCT003 BKN005 14/14 Q1017=
SA 15/06/2020 08:20->METAR EGNJ 150820Z VRB02KT 2200 BR SCT001 OVC003 14/14 Q1017=
SA 15/06/2020 07:50->METAR EGNJ 150750Z VRB02KT 2200 BR SCT001 OVC003 13/13 Q1017=
SA 15/06/2020 07:20->METAR EGNJ 150720Z VRB01KT 1600 BR OVC001 13/13 Q1017=

[harrogate]

Lots of RNLI and civvie boats converging on what can only be the search area

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1326x398/4c6ff1d7_4aa2_4642_8412_74a28407c2af_e7255e40f77982c2d79ad59 6281ea460ce4c97f9.png

There's also a large SAR Response vessel on location with large heli-deck.

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1440x1039/screenshot_20200616_011152_marinetraffic_41eda44a59e13079b13 712f63c287e64a602feb0.jpg

[Buster15]

Fingers crossed, the water will still be very cold at this time of year.

Wouldn't he have a life raft.

[Clipped Wings]

Buster,
yes he would but, if he was incapacitated during ejection he would not be able to enter the relative safety of the life raft. Believe me, it is quite challenging under ‘normal’ conditions.

[Davef68]

Wasn’t there one a few years back that lost almost the entire wing on one side and it was controllable?

Israeli Air Force

https://theaviationist.com/2014/09/15/f-15-lands-with-one-wing/

[KPax]

Just announced, pilot located, RIP.

[Auxtank]

Condolences to all those affected. RIP
Posted at 18:2418:24The pilot of the F-15C Eagle which crashed in the North Sea has been located, "and confirmed deceased", a spokesperson for RAF Lakenheath has confirmed;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-england-suffolk-53051437Full Statement From The US Air Force"The pilot of the downed F-15C Eagle from the 48th Fighter Wing has been located, and confirmed deceased," said a spokesperson.

"The name of the pilot will not be released until all next of kin notifications have been made.

"This is a tragic loss for the 48th Fighter Wing community, and our deepest condolences go out to the pilot’s family and the 493rd Fighter Squadron."

[ExAscoteer2]

Oh no.

Blue skies.

[MPN11]

RIP.

Eight hours in the North Sea was not suggesting a good outcome.

[NutLoose]

:(


Blue Skies.

[Jonty]

A horrible outcome.

Blue skies and tailwinds.

[SATCOS WHIPPING BOY]

Truly sad news. Thoughts are with the pilot's family, friends and colleagues.

For a brief moment today I really thought this would have a better outcome.

[gums]

So hold your goblet steady,
for we come from a brotherhood that flies,
here's a toast to the dead already,
and a low fast pass for the next man that dies
=======
adopted from an old Brit missal and used by my treasured combat flight from so long ago.
Threw my nickel on the grass just now and hope to meet the fellow at that great pub in the sky.
======
years ago, when still flying, we lost a Hawg driver out in that cold water as well as the pararescue guy. Doesn't take all that long unless you are wearing a poopie suit and get the neck closed up real quick.

Gums sends...

[vortexadminman]

What ever happened today and before the wash up and reports etc start rolling in. Sadly one of us was lost doing what they loved to do..........RIP pilot whoever you were

[reverserunlocked]

Terribly sad. Scant comfort for the family but at the very least they can lay him/her to rest and get some closure. To go missing at sea, never to be found must be the worst possible outcome.

[55mark]

Really sad to hear the news today. I have worked with these guys and they are truly professional and great guys, Please don't speculate just think of the relatives and the Squadron aircrew and the grief they are going through in this tragic accident.

[Bill Macgillivray]

Blue skies, Sir/Ma'am. My thoughts are with you and your family.

Bill

[n.dave]

Sad to know this has happen.

We were on our way back to ABZ from SCS and was number 2 in the queue. KLM was number 1 to land and reported elt was heard over 121.5 radio, roughly around 0845z. We couldn't hear anything on our radio and couldn't figure it out what it was. Then BBC news broadcast it.

[mercurydancer]

At least they found the pilot. Far worse for the relatives if that was not possible, so credit to the rescue services.

[Tankertrashnav]

At least they found the pilot. Far worse for the relatives if that was not possible, so credit to the rescue services.

Indeed. I attended the memorial service at Marham for the four crew of the Victor tanker which was lost over the North Sea after a mid air collision with a Buccaneer in 1976, and who were never found. I really felt for the families who were there - it felt even worse than had it been a funeral with the guys being laid to rest. Unfinished business, in some sort of way.

[falcon900]

Very sad indeed.
Developing the point made by Gums earlier, would events not suggest that the pilot had not ejected? Even if he had been incapacitated by the ejection, his beacon would have brought SAR straight to him. Even allowing for the poor Viz, I would not have expected the search for an ejectee to have taken so long .

[Green Flash]

I was watching this terrible day unfurl via AIS and with something like a dozen ships searching I really thought that it would turn out good. RIP and blue skies.

[Out Of Trim]

Very sad indeed.
Developing the point made by Gums earlier, would events not suggest that the pilot had not ejected? Even if he had been incapacitated by the ejection, his beacon would have brought SAR straight to him. Even allowing for the poor Viz, I would not have expected the search for an ejectee to have taken so long .

Very sad news indeed. BlueSkies..
Do we know for sure that he did actually eject? I think everything possible was done to locate him asap, but unfortunately took a lot longer than I had hoped!

[NutLoose]

Pilot named :(

https://www.cityam.com/pilot-killed-in-north-sea-crash-named-as-kenneth-allen/

[SLXOwft]

"ROYAL AIR FORCE LAKENHEATH, United Kingdom -- With next of kin notifications complete, we can confirm that the pilot killed in yesterday’s F-15C Eagle crash was 1st Lt. Kenneth Allen, assistant chief of weapons and tactics for the 493rd Fighter Squadron.

Allen first arrived at the 48th Fighter Wing in Feb. 2020, and is survived by his wife and parents.

“We are deeply saddened by the loss of Lt. Allen, and mourn with his family and his fellow Reapers in the 493rd Fighter Squadron. The tremendous outpouring of love and support from our communities has been a ray of light in this time of darkness,” said Col Will Marshall, 48th Fighter Wing commander."

As above, thoughts and prayers with family, colleagues and friends. Blue skies.

(Crossed with Nutloose but leaving full text)

[STENDEC North]

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1440x1800/kage_allen_1e503e3271e4e8d4034d74d05b6aac1937600a41.jpg

[dead_pan]

How awful.

Thoughts & prayers to all those involved.

[Distant Voice]

I wonder how many of the 'fast jets' involved in this exercise were fitted with TCAS/CWS? I suspect that the answer to that question is NONE.

DV

[KarlADrage]

I wonder how many of the 'fast jets' involved in this exercise were fitted with TCAS/CWS? I suspect that the answer to that question is NONE.

DV
I don't follow. There's no suggestion of any coming together, is there?

[Bob Viking]

That didn’t take you long.

Whilst we all appreciate your crusade, since it is done with noble intentions, once again I need to remind you of the limitations of CWS in FJ operations. During any form of visual air combat (I mean this generically since I do not know the circumstances of yesterday’s accident) no current or conceivable CWS will ever be of any real use. There are clearly many other circumstances where it could be useful, hence I agree with your desire to see it fitted, but please don’t try to give anyone the impression that it is a panacea.

We currently have no idea what happened yesterday over the North Sea and indeed if a collision happened. I think it is a little soon to bring up this argument.

BV

[NutLoose]

Bob, I think it relates to a much earlier post, see post 11

[Bob Viking]

I’m aware of the rumours from an earlier post. However, I’m struggling to think of a scenario where a mid air collision results in a crash for one aircraft and just a cracked canopy for the other.

For me, the mid air collision narrative doesn’t quite add up. Of course, I may well be wrong but I’m not going to make my guesses in public.

BV

[KarlADrage]

The cause of the crash is currently unknown and an investigation is under way.
One would assume that had a mid-air collision taken place, the cause of the crash would have been fairly obvious.

And as was said earlier, the jet that reported the cracked canopy and depressurisation did so more than two hours after the accident jet went into the sea.

[ORAC]

And also had a completely different callsign to that of the 4-ship on the crash sortie.

[NutLoose]

I’m aware of the rumours from an earlier post. However, I’m struggling to think of a scenario where a mid air collision results in a crash for one aircraft and just a cracked canopy for the other.

For me, the mid air collision narrative doesn’t quite add up. Of course, I may well be wrong but I’m not going to make my guesses in public.

BV

I agree, best leave it to those in the know ... it will eventually come out what tragically happened.

[gums]

Salute!

Well, Bob, just so happens I have a fairly close buddy from my Viper and Sluf days that can talk to you about a mid-air.

https://www.racing-reference.info/showblog?id=3142

Sadly, I also knew one of the pilots in the same plane that went down later. He was the son of my war time flight commander, and his accident might have been prevented by the ground collision gizmo. We early Viper folks did not want a robot taking over when we were not expecting it for reasons you outlined. Our gee onset was so great compared to other planes that we lost a few where the CWS or simikar could have helped. I even had my student go la la one day and recovered as he came to.

Gums sends...
.

[NutLoose]

Gums, you get the link I sent you?

[Bob Viking]

Obviously anything is possible in aviation!

Please don’t confuse collision warning systems (ie TCAS) with GCAS. In an ideal world all FJs would have both, but systems that are properly optimised for FJ operations.

I know you know the difference but my earlier posts refer to DVs crusade to have all FJs fitted with a CWS. I think using this accident to bring up the subject may be a red herring.

Bear in mind I know no more about what transpired yesterday than anyone else.

BV

[MATELO]

And also had a completely different callsign to that of the 4-ship on the crash sortie.

There have been plenty of instances over the UK where different call signs have collided. No always a wing man.

[ORAC]

There have been plenty of instances over the UK where different call signs have collided. No always a wing man. Accepted. But if you have a 4-ship playing in D323 and an extraneous jet wanders into the fight you'd get a quick knock-it-off. Plus the fact it landed two hours later would be a powerful hint that it was nowhere near, or had nothing to do with, the accident.

[nikko100]

Terrible outcome. So sad.
But just a query....aren't F-15s usually flown 2-up? With GIB?
Just wondering.

[dead_pan]

There have been plenty of instances over the UK where different call signs have collided. No always a wing man.

Indeed - they could have been opposite sides in a simulated melee

[mercurydancer]

I seem to recall a photo published that showed 4 F15s on the day of the crash, one of which could have been the one downed, flying over N Yorks.

[Out Of Trim]

Terrible outcome. So sad.
But just a query....aren't F-15s usually flown 2-up? With GIB?
Just wondering.

Not the F-15C model but 2 crew in the F-15E.

[KarlADrage]

Terrible outcome. So sad.
But just a query....aren't F-15s usually flown 2-up? With GIB?
Just wondering.

​​​​​​​Not when they're single-seat F-15Cs.

[Rhino power]

Terrible outcome. So sad.
But just a query....aren't F-15s usually flown 2-up? With GIB?
Just wondering.
In addition to the pilot, the F-15E is flown (normally) with a WSO or instructor, the F-15D is also flown with backseater or not, depending on the sortie requirements. The F-15 that was lost was a single seat C model...

-RP

[Meester proach]

RIP to the Airman.

Didn’t realise they had C models based over here

[Kabobble]

RIP to the Airman.

Didn’t realise they had C models based over here
They are the last F15C/D's in Europe.

F15C's, F15D's and F15E's all fly out of Lakenheath.
The E's are the 492nd and 494th Fighter Squadrons (Mad Hatters, Panthers). The C's and D's are the 493rd Fighter Squadron (Grim Reapers).

48 USAF F35A's are scheduled to arrive in Q4 2021 at Lakenheath, there's been a lot of construction recently to support their arrival.

Lakenheath F15's routinely (as in, every day) train over my part of the country, but today there were a pair of RAF Eurofighters instead. I suppose the F15s may be grounded for the moment while they work out what happened.

[airsound]

Good piece on Forces Net News, including words from John Sneller of Janes.
https://www.forces.net/news/f-15-pilot-killed-north-sea-crash-identified

airsound

[Ewan Whosearmy]

Good piece on Forces Net News, including words from John Sneller of Janes.
https://www.forces.net/news/f-15-pilot-killed-north-sea-crash-identified

airsound


Hmm.

He declared the sortie routine, but he doesn't actually know what the profile was or what they were doing.

He also talks about structural upgrades to increase the fatigue life of the wing/wing box, but the F-15C has had none of the kind he refers to.

In fact, there is a known failure mode caused by control surface delamination on the F-15 (honeycomb structure in the stabs), and some years back one was lost when the nose section broke from the main fuselage.

Finally, the last F-15C (x2) to have a Class A in the UK were at low level, which sort of contradicts his assertion that they only fly up high and on interception duties.

I am sure he's a very knowledgeable guy, but I didn't get the sense that he knows much about the Eagle.

[Homelover]

Good piece on Forces Net News, including words from John Sneller of Janes.
https://www.forces.net/news/f-15-pilot-killed-north-sea-crash-identified

airsound

Great. Wheeling out another supposed ‘expert’ to speculate, when he clearly knows nothing. Yawn....

[Monty Niveau]

Great. Wheeling out another supposed ‘expert’ to speculate, when he clearly knows nothing. Yawn....

These kinds of events create a media vacuum. While I agree that learmouth et al are unpalatable, I’d ask, how many of the real experts here make themselves available to the media to speak on these topics?

[airsound]

Ewan Whosearmy and Homelover - I know that PPRuNers can’t abide anyone described as an expert, but d’you not think you’re being a bit harsh on John Sneller? He is, after all, the Head of Aviation at Janes. I don’t know about you, but Janes has always been something of a bible in the aviation world to me.

So “he clearly knows nothing” - really?

He “declared the sortie routine, but he doesn’t actually know what the profile was”. I guess he was just quoting the words of the news release from the 48th Wing Public Affairs office.

“…the last F-15C (x2) to have a Class A in the UK were at low level.” I don’t dispute that, but, as the 48th Wing website says, the task of the 493rd Squadron, the only USAF F-15C/D unit in Europe, is air superiority and air defence, which suggests mostly high level, rather than low, operations.

Cut him some slack?

airsound

[Pontius Navigator]

These kinds of events create a media vacuum. While I agree that learmouth et al are unpalatable, I’d ask, how many of the real experts here make themselves available to the media to speak on these topics?
No doubt because the real experts know to wait for the BOI. They can make an informed opinion with one or more most likely causes but know they will lose all credibility if proven wrong.

Lots of fighters have ended up on the sea bed off Flamborough and I know of 3 similar losses and this F15 might make a 4th.

[Ewan Whosearmy]

Ewan Whosearmy and Homelover - I know that PPRuNers can’t abide anyone described as an expert, <snip>
Cut him some slack?

airsound

No, I won't.

I am a former aerospace journalist, not mil aircrew. Having been asked in the past to give interviews on air accidents, I have declined... precisely because I am *not* an expert.

So, if Janes wants to put someone on camera to act as an expert, they'd bloody better know what they're talking about.

[Homelover]

Airsound. What Ewan said.

Monty Niveau. Those ‘real experts’ don’t make themselves available because they aren’t concerned with getting their 5 minutes of fame. They know that in the event of an event like this it’s better not to speculate.

[Monty Niveau]

Monty Niveau. Those ‘real experts’ don’t make themselves available because they aren’t concerned with getting their 5 minutes of fame. They know that in the event of an event like this it’s better not to speculate.

I disagree. That leaves the space open for the ones they criticise.

While I’m picky (BBC, reputable broadsheets both sides of the Atlantic), and I have the benefit of plentiful media training and previous professional experience, I have found no problem in saying true and meaningful things, while avoiding speculation, on the occasions I’ve engaged. That has kept the ‘usual suspects’ off those particulars stages, at least on the concerned topics, and I have felt the whole engagement satisfactory. It has also led to ‘long read’ involvements which have been very satisfying (MCAS, for example), where I have been able to put a true professional pilot’s perspective on a complex issue. Very few do this, but many snipe from the sidelines while staying under cover with their safety ‘on’.

[Monty Niveau]

By the way, I apologise for the thread drift. This media issue arises every time ‘a thing’ happens. My dialogue is not in any way meant to detract from the tragedy of the death of a professional airman in the course of his duties, or its impact on those around him, and I offer my profound condolences to all affected.

[ORAC]

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1080x1531/6e94f599_5fae_466f_8859_293b767b26ff_f8822cda0c2344b43aef0ab 38093a3a1ef4983f6.jpeg

[Compass Call]

When I was in training, a very knowledgeable Warrant Officer told us to be wary of 'experts'.
Because : EX = has been & (S)PERT = drip under pressure.
Met many in my career both in and out of the R.A.F.. He was right.

[RAFEngO74to09]

48 FW send off + missing man. Sad and moving at the same time.

https://twitter.com/48FighterWing/status/1274235638682980352

[Downwind.Maddl-Land]

The 'Missing Man' flypast: A contribution to Military Ceremonial that our American Allies can be justifiably proud... Always stirs the emotions. Condolences to the entire Lakenheath team - and the family in particular, of course.

[MightyGem]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5L8gasWGvTI

I will remove it if people think it's inappropriate.

[jumpseater]

https://www.military.com/daily-news/2020/11/23/pilot-error-led-fatal-f-15-crash-north-sea-air-force-report-says.html

CFIT in 6 vs 4 air to air training

[Fortissimo]

https://www.afjag.af.mil/Portals/77/AIB-Reports/2020/AIB%20Report%20(F-15C%20TN%2086-0176)_FINAL_SIGNED.pdf

"The MP was an inexperienced F-15C pilot that had 270.7 total military flying hours on the date of the MS, including 64.3 hours in the F-15C/D and 151.7 F-15C simulator hours..."

No 4 in a 4 vs 6, base height of 4000ft, multi-layers from 1000ft upwards, no discernible horizon 4000-9000. No pressure. And no organizational/supervisory factors either.

[Mogwi]

Been there!

August '85 over the Channel in murk from 1000' to FL impossible. Vectored for an inbound at 10,000' and Freddie rolled me out 1/2 mile astern but I didn't have any radar contact - which was unusual even for me! Closed to 1/4 mile in cloud without contact, so assumed the D had got the height wrong and that the bogey was actually at low level below the crud.

Aggressively lowered the nose and started a fast descent, whilst desperately bogling the scope for a return. Completely lost SA and broke cloud below 1000', 40 degrees nose down at c480 kts. Immediately snatched a load of G and induced a high-speed stall. Relaxed slightly into light wing-rock and watched in horror as the horizon came up around my ears and the altimeter kept spinning down. I clearly remember it bottoming out some 50' below zero before starting to climb again. Luckily the HUD camera wasn't running, so I will never know how low I actually was.

The aircraft was a bit bent (+9G) but the tanks and flaps stayed on and I managed to calm the heartbeat down enough to land back onboard. Still gives me the shivers.

Disorientation is still a killer.

Mog

[ORAC]

Happened with an F-4 out of Leuchars when I was an FA at Buchan. BOI assumption was that he mistook the haar for another cloud layer and that the target was below.

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/82602

Also happened with an F-3 out of Leeming when I was at Boulmer. Nav ejected in time, pilot left it too late and, IIRC, was found in the water with a deployed parachute.

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/55442

I also recall the story of the Lightning who got disorientated whilst chasing a high level evading target and found himself in a vertical descent passing M1.3. Closed the throttle and pulled the stick back and waited. IIRC he blacked out as G increased and came to with the altimeter climbing through about 300ft, recovered and brought home a severely bent airframe.


RIP to the deceased in each case.

[Fortissimo]

And another F4 accident here: https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/68261 Both this and the accident ORAC refers to above involved CFIT rather than disorientation. Sadly, both also involved friends. As did the Lightning incident -the gentleman concerned told me the squadron boss asked why the hell he had pulled 10G. "Because I couldn't f****** pull any harder!" was the reply. I also recall someone on the F4 OCU at Coningsby in the 70s getting the nose buried at high speed doing ACT and having a similar experience with a high G recovery. Again, the difference from this sad F15 event is that it was recognised early, at altitude, and not at the last minute.

I am still left wondering about experience, environment and workload...

[BEagle]

I also recall the story of the Lightning who got disorientated whilst chasing a high level evading target and found himself in a vertical descent passing M1.3. Closed the throttle and pulled the stick back and waited. IIRC he blacked out as G increased and came to with the altimeter climbing through about 300ft, recovered and brought home a severely bent airframe.

I know the pilot, (JF). He told us that he took his head out of the radar and saw the nadir star of the AI in the middle of the display slowly rotating - indicating 90 deg nose down pitch. He closed the throttles, tried to extend airbrakes, but was over the IAS limit - then pulled as hard as he could, blacking out in the process. When he came to, he was in a climb at about 300ft with the IAS rapidly decreasing. Full reheat sorted that, then he levelled off and RTB'd rather gingerly. After landing, the engineers found remarkably little damage to the jet despite the extreme overstress and that actually helped to extend Lightning fatigue life (IIRC he was in a Mk3)! But he had an interesting pattern of g-suit lace marks up and down his legs for a few days, so he later told us!

[MightyGem]

Correct link from here:
https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/637250-fatal-mishap-f-15c-north-sea-june-2020-a.html#post10941373

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOb5BzdKbPo

[jumpseater]

Correct link some bloke I follow here:
https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/637250-fatal-mishap-f-15c-north-sea-june-2020-a.html#post10941373

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOb5BzdKbPo

fixed it for you

[Green Flash]

C. W. Lemoine (https://www.cwlemoine.com/about/)

[West Coast]

Correct link from here:
https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/637250-fatal-mishap-f-15c-north-sea-june-2020-a.html#post10941373

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOb5BzdKbPo

Takes it from a clinical study of the accident to the tragedy it is when you learn even a little about the man who perished.

[MightyGem]

fixed it for you
In the word of Manual, "Que?"

[jumpseater]

In the word of Manual, "Que?"

Your original post said “correct link from here”

Just wondering where are the previous incorrect links? They all seem to go to relevant information just like yours does.

[MightyGem]

Your original post said “correct link from here”
Just wondering where are the previous incorrect links? They all seem to go to relevant information just like yours does.
The YouTube link in the first post is missing a few letters, so it doesn't work.