Valiant Airborne Command Post

[steamchicken]

Looking for something else I came across this reference in Len Scott and Stephen Twigge's Planning Armageddon: Britain, the United States, and the Command of Western Nuclear Forces 1945-1964 (https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=WPXLoaB7VpwC&lpg=PA221&ots=_mcmSqjWpi&dq=SHAPE%20operations%20centre&pg=PA220#v=onepage&q=SHAPE%20operations%20centre&f=false):

In August 1962, the Air Ministry approved deployment of an airborne command post "to ensure an alternative means of passing release messages to the Medium Bomber Force without recourse to landline communications"....To establish an airborne command post, a flight of Valiants was transferred from the tanker squadron and fitted with UHF communication equipment. Operation of the system proved problematic. Joint exercises with SHAPE revealed that UHF transmission failed to meet required standards of reliability. However, if HF SSB radio sets were used, no such difficulties existed...

I did not know there was any effort to create a UK TACAMO. Does anyone (Pontius Navigator? BEagle?) know any more?

[Tengah Type]

I can not give any details of the Valiant days as I was not there. However on the Victor Mk 1 Tanker we had a crew on short notice standby (I seem to remember 1 hour) to launch as ACP. This was not an Airborne Command Post as there was only the standard crew aboard, no senior officer commanders. The role of the aircraft was as an Airborne Communications Post to rebroadcast go on/come back codewords to the bomber force en route to their targets.

[57mm]

Same deal on 98 Sqn E15s at Cottesmore.

[Fareastdriver]

We used to do that on 90 Sqn Valiants at about that time. Not the most serious of jobs compared with the sprinting by the Victor crews.

When the hooters went in the mess for a Micky Finn at some Godforsaken hour in the morning I could roll over and go back to sleep. After breakfast I would go to the squadron where a the first complete crew in got the job. On one occasion the Squadron Commander was worrying about the fact he only had one serviceable aircraft and he also had to provide a backup. I suggested that he nominate a nearly serviceable aircraft as the ACP and the serviceable one as backup.

That was what was done.

[Jackonicko]

98 Squadron Canberra E15s did what, now?

[57mm]

Jacko, it's double secret.......

[Shackman]

I have a vague recollection that 8 Sqn in its early AEW days had a similar task outlined; whether it was to be done by those AEW Shackletons already airborne that were to broadcast airfield states (or those stilloperational) for recovering aircraft, or whether it was one or two of the MR aircraft on the Sqn books I don't know. I don't ever remember practising it.

[Yellow Sun]

98 Squadron Canberra E15s did what, now?

I think you’ll find the clue is autocat

YS

[Tankertrashnav]

As Tengah Type has said, we did this when I was on Victor K1s. Once a month we went in the vault and revised the procedures, such as frequencies, callsigns, routes etc. I'm pretty sure this has long been declassified so I think I m fairly safe, but we had a predesignated racetrack over near the coast of Norway and that was where we were supposed to go and relay messages to the main force. Having no defences, not even ECM, I wonder how long we would have lasted on task! Not sure when the commitment ceased, sometime around 1973-74 at a guess.

[pontifex]

I was 7 years on Victor K1's and never knew anything of this TTN. Perhaps it was because I was only a [pilot and was expected just to do what my Nav told me. What a relief, it would have meant I would not have had to think.

[NRU74]

[QUOTE Once a month we went in the vault and ....[/QUOTE]

..and played Kierki !

[Top West 50]

I seem to remember our holding pattern was in the Daventry area but I may be mistaken. I do recall, however, that this particular variation of practice bleeding was even less exciting than "nav competition training."

[ORAC]

I seem to remember our holding pattern was in the Daventry area

There were literally dozens of SORBITS (Survival Orbits) in the plan. Most were out over the sea, but strangely many were overland - and overhead airfields which were seen as targets and whose own aircraft had orbits a safe 100nm or more away. Go figure.

[RetiredBA/BY]

Valiants, 207 sqn at Marham, , SACEUR assigned. Never heard of this relay function of 214.

[Brewster Buffalo]

What was wrong with this typically British idea....:)
"Lord Mountbatten faced the problem of what to do in the event of a four-minute warning if Harold Macmillan was away from his desk...The Treasury didn’t want to spend any money; Macmillan didn’t want to have any fuss at all. .....Whitehall arranged for the prime minister’s car to have a radio link – with which the AA used to communicate with its mechanics – that would tell the PM's driver that he needed to reach a public phone box, from which Macmillan would call Whitehall. It was suggested that government drivers carried four pennies, as that was the minimum sum needed in a GPO phone box.”

Can't see all the above being done in four minutes...

[ORAC]

I think the bit below was probably inserted so that if the Americans asked if we had a "recall mechanism", we could say yes......

An exchange of letters between civil servants highlights fears that the driver might not have had the change necessary to make the call. Macmillan’s private secretary provided reassurance.

Even if by “some misfortune or miscalculation [the pennies] have been expended and one is penniless”, Tim Bligh wrote, there would always be the option of “dialling 100 and requesting reversal of the charge”

[Tengah Type]

As FED intimated in #4 the ACP was rarely exercised during bomber exercises. The only one I flew was on 13 Dec 1966 - Ex Tibet 3hrs 50 night. As Top West 50 indicated at #12 a holding pattern(60 nm square ?) was used, but not on the operational location. IIRC ours was based on Lincoln. For obvious reasons "nav competition training" was more exciting for us in the back. Much better than the seemingly interminable circuit bashing favoured by others! Especially at night when the bar was calling!

[Timelord]

I think the Nav School Dominies also had an airborne comms relay war role.
t

[ExAscoteer2]

I think the Nav School Dominies also had an airborne comms relay war role.


It was known as Airborne Radio Relay and was one of two War Roles for the Dominie, the other being Short Range Maritime Patrol.

[Fareastdriver]

It was suggested that government drivers carried four pennies, as that was the minimum sum needed in a GPO phone box.”

In 1964 when the country was being connected up to the STD phone system one could ascertain the numbers to dial so that you could get connected to a number in any major city for 4d.

[tlightb]

When at Cottesmore on 115 Sqn, Argosy (70-72) looking at my logbook I see I did three trips up north doing race track orbits for a long time as a departure from our normal flight checking role. I think we had an idea what it was all about but as a Nav my job was just doing the normal routine. The AEOs down the back knew what was going off on a "need to know" basis. We were in 1 Group so an available resource for the job I expect. A bit different for us but I preferred flight checking jobs to Berlin, the Med, or Changi.

[Haraka]

In 1964 when the country was being connected up to the STD phone system one could ascertain the numbers to dial so that you could get connected to a number in any major city for 4d.,
Yup,"Tandem Dialling", Basically you dialled in to a local exchange IIRC, then out of that into the next and so on until you reached your destination exchange.
There was also another student wheeze , where , so I am told , by using a three figure prefix (175?) you were treated as a BT Service Call and not charged.....

[Fareastdriver]

There was also another student wheeze , where , so I am told , by using a three figure prefix (175?) you were treated as a BT Service Call and not charged.....

That's jogged a memory.

[Herod]

You could also call up by tapping the cradle the appropriate number of times. We were warned not to be on the line too long, as it flagged up.

[bridgets boy]

There were literally dozens of SORBITS (Survival Orbits) in the plan. Most were out over the sea, but strangely many were overland - and overhead airfields which were seen as targets and whose own aircraft had orbits a safe 100nm or more away. Go figure.
So those running the show would have independent evidence / confirmation that a particular airfield had been taken out - 'nothing heard'..?

[Haraka]

You could also call up by tapping the cradle the appropriate number of times. We were warned not to be on the line too long, as it flagged up.
My Father put on a lock to the house phone dial face, Tapping the cradle at the right rate for each number, including the pauses , worked a treat. I eventually got bored of the game and phoned him up at his work office.

[Haraka]

One final 'phone story I was told . A Scampton Vulcan crew visited the war room in Cheyenne Mountain in the 60's and were shown the American system where the duty officer could be phoned on any Nuclear base and had to reply within three rings. They were invited to select a base in the USA and this was duly demonstrated. They were assured that this system also extended to appropriate RAF Bases.
At their request this was duly initiated as a demonstration for their home station.
After a couple of rings a female voice announced:

" All lines to Lincoln are currently engaged . Please call later "

[langleybaston]

And of course the puerile [at the time I thought it funny] Met Office naughty jape of swapping the handsets of any pair of neighbouring phones, which pairs often sat on the forecaster's and also the observer's benches. We used to do it as we went off duty.
Complete disregard of the customers, and I apologise.

[salad-dodger]

And of course the puerile [at the time I thought it funny] Met Office naughty jape of swapping the handsets of any pair of neighbouring phones, which pairs often sat on the forecaster's and also the observer's benches. We used to do it as we went off duty.
Complete disregard of the customers, and I apologise.
You were a right little tinker weren’t you LB?

[langleybaston]

You were a right little tinker weren’t you LB?

Very restrained under the circumstances.
Winker perhaps?

[Dan Winterland]

The system was Automatic Airborne Radio Relay (AARR), commonly known as "Autocat" All the tankers I flew (Victor and VC10) had it fitted and it was a secondary role for the fleet. I only did one of those sorties on a Victor during a JMC exercise. Bloody boring!

[ORAC]

The system was Automatic Airborne Radio Relay (AARR), commonly known as "Autocat" All the tankers I flew (Victor and VC10) had it fitted and it was a secondary role for the fleet. I only did one of those sorties on a Victor during a JMC exercise. Bloody boring! IIRC one of the major problems was that the automatic system meant tying the radios together so they couldn't be used by the crew. The aircraft only had two VHF/UHF sets to that meant they couldn't talk to ATC or ADGE, and for radio relay they orbited above FL245.

Which meant that the usual means of operation was voice relay by the crew so they could share the comms. Tried it a couple of times attempting to use HF for control, but it proved far to slow and patchy.

[Dan Winterland]

IIRC one of the major problems was that the automatic system meant tying the radios together so they couldn't be used by the crew. The aircraft only had two VHF/UHF sets to that meant they couldn't talk to ATC or ADGE, and for radio relay they orbited above FL245.

Depends on the aircraft. The Victor had two VHFs, 2 UHFs and one HF. The problem was VHF1s and UHF1s shared the same controller as did the number 2 radios. This was limiting if not linking HF, but you could be contacted through one of the boxes being used and this meant listening to everyone else's chat. The VC10 had separate controllers for all the radios and 2 HFs, so it wasn't an issue.

[Tankertrashnav]

I was 7 years on Victor K1's and never knew anything of this TTN. Perhaps it was because I was only a [pilot and was expected just to do what my Nav told me. What a relief, it would have meant I would not have had to think.

Now that's odd PONTIFEX, because I was talking about this with my old plotter, who was obviously a contemporary of ours, and he has no recollection of this either. I am now beginning to think that at some stage I was abducted by aliens and had the whole thing implanted in my brain as a false memory. Unless someone else who was at Marham around the same time can put my mind to rest!

[Bunker Shot]

Hey TTN, being on 214 at the same time as you and Pontifex I remember the Vault and ACP study well. Wasn't it a monthly or quarterly BTR requirement? However, I also seem to remember (not so well), that it was only rear crew who did the study period. Can't remember why it was only rear crew but possibly because the pilots did flight sims without the rear crew. I certainly have no recollection of keeping the front end in the dark (as they did to us)!

[Tengah Type]

Yes we did do the ACP study periods in the Vault while I was on 214, but do not think we did them when I was an instructor on the OCU.
I can not remember if the Drivers Airframe were there or not. It was 50 odd years ago.

[Whopity]

I agree with TTN we used to go to the vault and the role involved swapping the UA60 boxes in the aircraft to allow relay between radios.

[Tankertrashnav]

Thanks chaps, now I know I wasn't imagining it, and wont be having alien abduction nightmares. Nice to hear from ex 214 types. Re the vault, I remember hearing one day that somebody had overheard a corporal in the ops block telling his mate that he had just seen a bunch of officers coming out of a cupboard. The mind boggles as to what he imagined they were doing in said cupboard!

[Top West 50]

Was "Exercise Billion" anything to do with it?

[ORAC]

And of course the puerile [at the time I thought it funny] Met Office naughty jape of swapping the handsets of any pair of neighbouring phones, which pairs often sat on the forecaster's and also the observer's benches. We used to do it as we went off duty.
Things didn’t change in the digital era.

Fun could be had in the Ops room at RAF Stanley during the night by programming each phone to forward any calls to the next desk after 2-3 rings. Great amusement was had watching a newbie chase a call around the room in circles.

[Haraka]

Re 115 Sqn. Argosies at Cottesmore. During late 73 early 74 I was holding in SHQ under OCGD. I was tasked with doing a 100% Classified document check on 115 Sqn holdings. Quite rightly IMHO certain senior members were astounded at a gash JO having access to operational information not privy to the majority of Squadron Aircrew members.

[Pontius Navigator]

One final 'phone story I was told . A Scampton Vulcan crew visited the war room in Cheyenne Mountain in the 60's and were shown the American system where the duty officer could be phoned on any Nuclear base and had to reply within three rings. They were invited to select a base in the USA and this was duly demonstrated. They were assured that this system also extended to appropriate RAF Bases.
At their request this was duly initiated as a demonstration for their home station.
After a couple of rings a female voice announced:

" All lines to Lincoln are currently engaged . Please call later "
More or less true. The Captain was the Scampton Stn Cdr, the war room was the SAC bunker at Offutt. Cheyenne Mountain was Air Defence. The procedure was the SAC Controller would send out a Comms Alert. Every SAC Unit CP would acknowledge and the acknowledge lamp would illuminate. When all acknowledge lights were lit he would pass the message. When lights went out the message was acknowledged. In this case the Stn Cdr asked for the Station Duty Officer - bad call.

[Pontius Navigator]

Was "Exercise Billion" anything to do with it?
This was a monthly 1 Gp bomber exercise. I flew my first in Sep 65. Prior to that they were simply GroupEx.

[Pontius Navigator]

ACP of course had two meanings. Only the Variant was designated with a Command function. However unlike the SAC Looking Glass which had a one or two star general on board the Variant would only have had a standard crew. Its ACP role was probably defined in the Bomber Command War SOP (1st Edn). Coincident with the grounding of the Valiant the SOP 2nd Edition was published in 1965 (that is another story).

As far as fit and practice I don't know (also another story).

I will ask a researcher I am helping.