Super Emeraude IFR?

[Supermattt]

Hi All,

Piel Super Emeraude is on the LAA list of permit aircraft that are likely to be cleared for IFR. Does anyone have any knowledge of IFR equipped Super Émeraudes or the likely ease or otherwise of equipping one for IFR and getting it approved?

Or indeed does anyone have any comments on the suitability of a Super Emeraude for flying IFR? I am thinking IFR in VMC or marginal type stuff not pressing on through horrendous whether, i.e. I appreciate it is not likely to be the aircraft of choice as an IFR platform per se but would like to hear from anyone who has flown an IFR equipped Super Emeraude.

Cheers
Matt

[BoeingBoy]

Hello Matt,

The relevance of the The Super Emeraude to IFR will be related to what navigation and radio equipment it carries rather than the type. There's no reason I know of that stops you getting airborne in a bathtub so long as it can navigate according to the rules. As for whether it's a suitable mount for IFR work is down to your abilities and the work load you're able to cope with. I don't know how much IFR work you've done but single crew instrument flying with no autopilot can provide an extremenly high workload in something as benign as a spam can never mind a responsive and agile type like yours.

Whilst you say you don't want to operate in marginal conditions, that isn't the main issue. Even if your departure and destination weather are good any en route weather that provides heavy convection or icing will stop you operating. Why convection? Because even an 'enthusiastic' bit of towering cumulus will see you with the throttle closed and nose pointing down just trying to maintain the required +/-200' allowed inside Class D/A airspace. Throw in a frequency and squawk change whilst you're fighting the controls and you'll wish you'd installed a two axis autopilot.

If you have a Single Crew/Single Engined IR and your aircraft is suitably equipped then there's no reason your Emeraude cannot operate IFR and fly an ILS down to 200' and 800 mtrs but if you're planning on flying airways you need something or someone else to help with the workload. If you're working on an IR(R) then you'll be limited to 1500mtrs on most approaches.

[ChickenHouse]

Interesting question, I looked up some numbers to compare to my experiences.

A Super Emeraude has carb'ed 90-100 BHP, 871 lb empty weight, max takeoff weight 1,433 lb and is made of wood.
A Cessna 150 has carb'ed 100-125 BHP, 962-1129 lb empty weight, max takeoff weight 1,500-1,670 lb and is metal.
Flying a Super Emeraude would mean flying a wood aircraft of less than a typical C150.

I have done IFR in C150ies on single VOR and basic equipment and it wasn't fun.
Getting in the air with a lighter and less powerfull aircraft does not sound desirable to me.

[Supermattt]

Thanks for your replies BoeingBoy and ChickenHouse.

Does anyone know if any Super Émeraudes on a permit have been approved for IFR?

Cheers
Matt

[ChickenHouse]

Thanks for your replies BoeingBoy and ChickenHouse.

Does anyone know if any Super Émeraudes on a permit have been approved for IFR?

Cheers
Matt
Sure.

Never heard of any.

Wasn't there a lightning protection required for IFR cert. how'd you do that on a wooden fuselage, metallic paint?

[Maoraigh1]

Before going on LAA Permit as "Orphan" the Jodel DR1050 was allowed IFR by the CAA. I think the Robin DR400 is still allowed IFR by EASA. They are wood and fabric.
Wire conductors between wingtips, etc???
(I did the IMC Rating but never used it. I could see the difficulty of maintaining IFR accuracy in a DR1050.)

[Supermattt]

Thanks Maoraigh1,

A bunch of permit aircraft appear in this list from the LAA of aircraft that are likely to be approved for IFR/night now that this has been allowed.

http://www.lightaircraftassociation.co.uk/engineering/TechnicalLeaflets/Operating%20An%20Aircraft/TL%202.27%20Night%20IFR%20procedure.pdf

I assume, therefore, that there are some of each that are IFR and/or night equipped.

I am researching a permit aircraft that can be flown in IFR, is affordable and not otherwise unsuitable.

The Super Emeraude is possibly a good candidate (comments re its unsuitability for IFR in IMC noted)

If there are any out there, it would be great to talk to their pilots.

I have posted similar query on LAA Forum.

Cheers
Matt

[gasax]

I believe there are variants of the Super Emeraude which were certified aircraft. This is an easy starting point for the LAA to create a list from. My own permit aircraft has certified variants - but it i significantly heavier and much less reactive / twitchy than my old Emeraude. Touring in my Emeraude I recall being pretty tired after 3 to 5 hours flying a day - simply because the Emeraude is a brilliantly responsive aircraft - which will not fly straight and level without some 'damping' from the pilot. As for flying one within IFR tolerances - Skygod territory! There seems little point in spending money on equipment etc if it is effectively unusable.

[A and C]

I am astounded to hear that you think a an aircraft in current production is “still allowed to fly IFR by EASA”.

It is not the method of Construction that determines if an aircraft can fly IFR it is the handling characteristics, navigation Equipment fitted and the system redundancy that are the factors that the decision is based.

I can’t see why if the Emeraude meets the criteria it would not be allowed by the LAA to fly IFR. Go ask the question of the LAA, the guy who investigates new types for IFR certifying is a reasonable bloke and very practical in dealing with this issue.

As to the DR400, it is a pussycat IFR, I have flown ILS to the limits with aircraft on a number of occasions, the low nose and large clear canopy allowed me to get the visual reference to continue the approach even when The weather was right on the 200ft Minima.

[Maoraigh1]

I was responding to a post questioning the possibility of wood and fabric aircraft being IFR certifiable, with examples I believed were.
PS I contacted LAA Engineering almost a year ago about night flying for a Permit aircraft type which had previously had CAA Night approval. So far nothing beyond the automatic "received" response.

[Piper.Classique]

Wasn't there a lightning protection required for IFR cert. how'd you do that on a wooden fuselage, metallic paint?
Bonding with lots of braided wire. I've flown plenty of gliders in cloud. Wooden ones.

[Supermattt]

Thanks Gasax, A and C, Piper Classique and Maoraigh, very useful replies.

It is an interesting process trying to honestly define your ‘mission’ and I have realised that my main mission is a low cost, charming aircraft that is available to me whenever I want it at the closest airfield. I have rental access to IFR aircraft.

I have fallen for the Super Emeraude and accept that it is unlikely to be a viable IFR aircraft.

I will speak to the LAA and keep a lookout for something slightly heavier and more stable but still with charm, like a DR400 but in the meantime I will go and have a look at this little beauty:

https://www.ataviation.co.uk/product/cp1310-c3-super-emeraude/

Great useful replies thanks everyone.

Matt

[Crash one]

I have had my Emeraude CP301-A (the early version with doors rather than sliding canopy) for 12 years.
it is quite a docile aircraft, can be flown hands off in calm conditions, very responsive but not “twitchy”.
i don’t have an IR but I have found myself in some pretty awful weather once or twice, (vis, turbulence, heavy rain etc) and it is quite capable with nothing much more than an AI.
What it needs to make it legal IFR I don’t know but as a platform I see no reason why not.