Training during this pandemic

[WhizKid]

I have noticed this last week that a helicopter school has commenced training In the East Midlands area. My personal understanding of the government guidelines means that this is difficult/not acceptable. If SkyWise is to be believed only GA is allowed under 3 specific rules, they must be:

solo flights
flights where everyone is from the same household
flights in aircraft where social distancing measures can be maintained - such as tandem cockpits spaced by more than 2 metres, or occupancy of separate parts of the aircraft structure

I have been in small helicopters before and don’t think two meters can be achieved! Even 2inches would be difficult. Just wanting to know others views on this?

[Mutley1013]

I saw the same traffic and wondered what sort of flights they were operating. I think, as has been said elsewhere here, going to the supermarket is probably a higher risk, but that does not mean a dual flight for GA is the right thing to do.

[gipsymagpie]

Doesn't one of the companies over that way support national infrastructure inspection flights? They were deemed essential so it might be training associated with that

[autobarnacle]

Seems like a fair amount of flying being done in that area. Can't imagine that is all training related to any essential service contracts. Could be wrong but seems unlikely. I know of two fixed-wing schools who have restarted by merging the instructors and students into 'family groups' in their own accommodation. Fingers crossed we will all be back in the air together soon.

[helicopter-redeye]

Perhaps the students in the Cabri’s are doing the solo phase of their training?

[autobarnacle]

Perhaps the students in the Cabri’s are doing the solo phase of their training?
I can't imagine a school letting a student/s go solo after 8-10 weeks of no flying.

[WhizKid]

I also heard from some people who were at the airfield this last week that a student was due to go out with an examiner for a PC/Skills Test so I’m led to believe there is definitely training being done.

[nomorehelosforme]

You may want to look at this thread, especially the later posts that discuss social distancing in commercial helicopters as opposed to HEMS operations.

https://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/630279-helicopters-coronavirus.html

[AnFI]

IF
the chance of encountering someone who is contageous is < 1 in 5000
AND IF
the chance of death on catching it is < 1 in 1000
AND IF
the chance of catching it from someone sharing your cockpit is <1

THEN
what is the risk? <10^-6 to 10^-7 ?

should training still be discouraged (banned) or is it a matter for common sense yet?

asking for a friend

[bill2b]

IF
the chance of encountering someone who is contageous is < 1 in 5000
AND IF
the chance of death on catching it is < 1 in 1000
AND IF
the chance of catching it from someone sharing your cockpit is <1

THEN
what is the risk? <10^-6 to 10^-7 ?

should training still be discouraged (banned) or is it a matter for common sense yet?

asking for a friend
Well said Friend

[bill2b]

Red Arrows have been training for weeks now

[Radgirl]

Hi AnFI

The incidence has been 1 in 850 in the UK but varies between regions. The death rate depends on age but is 1-2%. The chance of catching it in an enclosed space, inches apart for an hour, approaches 1

The issue is not the death rate to you but the risk of infecting others so I suggest all that matters is the 1 in 850. What we have seen in hospitals is that people think the risk is low but then we find the incidence is 15% because they have been together day after day. We have no data on flight training but if they do create similar clusters.....Anyhow, whilst it is legal for the instructor and the military are exempt, it remains illegal for the student so not I suggest something we should support

[bill2b]

Hi AnFI

The incidence has been 1 in 850 in the UK but varies between regions. The death rate depends on age but is 1-2%. The chance of catching it in an enclosed space, inches apart for an hour, approaches 1

The issue is not the death rate to you but the risk of infecting others so I suggest all that matters is the 1 in 850. What we have seen in hospitals is that people think the risk is low but then we find the incidence is 15% because they have been together day after day. We have no data on flight training but if they do create similar clusters.....Anyhow, whilst it is legal for the instructor and the military are exempt, it remains illegal for the student so not I suggest something we should support
People like you are the problem. they make up the rules to suit themselves and you will support it all the way. Anyone can come up with a bunch of statistics just like you have done, does not mean diddly squit. As for the military being exempt that is even more ridiculous. The Red Arrows are a flying display team, they are allowed yet civilians are not, this just shows what a nonsense the whole thing is. Why are they practising anyway if it all goes to plan and we are not allowed to be in a crowd ever again (the new normal that they talk about) then why do we need aircraft displays?

[Bravo73]

Red Arrows have been training for weeks now

The Red Arrows are single pilot aircraft.

[bill2b]

The Red Arrows are single pilot aircraft.
Strap themselves in these days then, I suppose they service their own aircraft as well

[WhizKid]

We seem to be moving off the point. Solo flight is fine as is flight in aircraft where social distancing can be maintained! I just feel that training flights in a Cabri is not acceptable and find it very hard anyone can argue any different!

[Bravo73]

People like you are the problem.

You obviously know very little about Radgirl or what she has been going through recently. I would choose your words more carefully, if I was you.

[autobarnacle]

Let us change the direction of the thread. I am sure lots of people reading this have had or are going through a tough time. Let move onto a time, hopefully, the not too distant future when we can conduct non-essential, PPL, training. ( I appreciate this is essential for businesses ££ ). Any thoughts on the hazards associated with wearing masks or disposable gloves. Even maybe some recommendations for aircraft friendly cleaning products. Let's use the knowledge in this forum to keep others safe in the future. I have been reading into a product called BacoBan, is a spray that can be used in aircraft and is antibacterial for up to 10 days. Creates an antibac layer over a surface. Has anyone used this before?

[nomorehelosforme]

You obviously know very little about Radgirl or what she has been going through recently. I would choose your words more carefully, if I was you.

Agreed,

My daughter handles the HR for the company that are contracted to to supply ambulances and drivers to many NHS trusts around the SE England and like Radgirl has had to deal with unprecedented situations at the frontline, try telling people like them and thousands of others they are the problem!

Having read some of your other posts a favourite word of yours seems to be “tosh” and On this occasion I think it is fair to say that your comments are “UTTER TOSH” And that’s been polite!

[bill2b]

Agreed,

My daughter handles the HR for the company that are contracted to to supply ambulances and drivers to many NHS trusts around the SE England and like Radgirl has had to deal with unprecedented situations at the frontline, try telling people like them and thousands of others they are the problem!

Having read some of your other posts a favourite word of yours seems to be “tosh” and On this occasion I think it is fair to say that your comments are “UTTER TOSH” And that’s been polite!
Front line? , Yes ok mr Tosh . Don;t forget to read your daily mail tomorrow.

[AnFI]

Hi Radgirl,

Thanks for whatever your efforts and involvement have been, everyone apreciates this, It sounds like you are quite immersed in it.
Maybe too much to be objective.

"The incidence has been 1 in 850 in the UK but varies between regions. The death rate depends on age but is 1-2%. The chance of catching it in an enclosed space, inches apart for an hour, approaches 1"

Incidence rate. To say is "has been" isn't now. Now its much less. The Oxford team testing vaccines on a sample of 10000 can't get results at that small sample size, because not enough people will be 'exposed'.
Most people who have it know they have it and they are self isolating, not taking helicopter lessons.
So the 1 in 5000 is a pessimistic estimate for now.
That can be reduced a little by asking a few questions, like
How do you feel?
Do you know anyone that has or has had Covid?
Have you had it?
My estimate of probability that a helicopter student who has been asked these questions is a live asyptomatic carrier is less than 1 in 10,000 right now. Possibly as little as 3 in 100,000.

Death rate 1%-2%. that's a little naughty too. Very few obese, 80 year old, asthmatic, immuno supressed Bangladeshis are training in helicopters. T'aint right to use the figure that includes them.
For sub 30 year olds its more like 1 in 1000 almost certainly less that that because death rates are against reported and tested positive, many will have symptoms so mild that they will not appear in the denominator.

There is certainly no case at all for preventing one person who has had it teaching another that has had it, is there?

Now I understand that there is an occasional strategy to minimise R0 and that exaggerating the risk is part of that campaign. So perhaps exaggeration is useful for that. I understand the idea that preventing spread is to protect vulnerables.

I am not criticising anybody's attempts at strategy.
But in aviation we have to 'stay grounded' in the fact based world, avoid hysteria, stay alert and go flying!

[Radgirl]

The good news AnFI is that if we dont get a resurgence we may be able to reopen soon. I totally agree that the risk TO a fit 20 year old student is approaching zilch, although somewhat higher to certain instructors :rolleyes: I also think that we could take lessons from some HEMS operations that have adapted reusable P3 masks putting mics inside so they can be worn whenever in the cab. Together with good handwashing and aircraft cleaning or resting it would get us training or refreshing again before we all forget what to pull and push.....

But I am afraid the government figures for incidence were 0.11% last week in the general population and much higher in hospitals, care homes and some other areas. I dont totally trust them but you cant just lop off a zero with no evidence - the vaccine testing issue is because they need someone who has not been infected to become infected in the next week or so and that would have been difficult even at the peak because you cant knowingly infect them. Equally the majority of healthy / young people (ie the students) never have symptoms, and the 3 question questionnaire is worse still as a filter. In our hospital studies with 15% of staff antibody positive, less than 3% recall any symptoms!

I would support an antibody positive instructor teaching an antibody positive student, but the government is understandably terrified of allowing immunity certificates.

We share your frustration!

[John R81]

This study (https://virological.org/t/preliminary-analysis-of-sars-cov-2-importation-establishment-of-uk-transmission-lineages/507) indicates that CV19 was brought into UK over 1,300 times, mostly in the period 28 Feb to 29 March. Most infections came into UK from Spain, then Frances, etc. Almost no infection came in from China.

Events like the football match at Anfield (3,000 came in from Spain to watch) had negligible effect (about 20,000 people came in from Spain each day in March, aside from those football spectators).

This suggests to me that the current requirement for quarantine on arrival into the UK should have been started then, when we had little infection in the UK. I don't see the logic in having those restrictions now.

[Stitchbitch]

In the spirit of providing options for some - potentially only useful if you wear an Alpha helmet in your helicopter/aircraft - which possibly won't be the majority of readers?
https://twitter.com/KeySE_Maint/status/1270397989715148803/photo/1

[helihub]

Red Arrows have been training for weeks now

And while their aircraft don't "social distance", they are solo inside each aircraft and thus OK, right?

[[email protected]]

JohnR81 - that is a very interesting study and highlights the error in the Govt position - based on scientific advice allegedly - that stopping international travel would have had a negligible effect at that time.

[Northernstar]

So back on thread, and now other flight training organisations have resumed flying in line with government regulations can anyone explain how the companies in Leicester and say Newquay were back training long before everyone else?