View Full Version : No need for concessions
controlledrest
6th Jun 2020, 02:47
CX Group reports loss of HK$4.5 billon 1/4 of this calendar year.
https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/transport/article/3084514/cathay-pacific-and-cathay-dragon-report-combined-hk45
At the end of March they reported they had HK$20 billon in liquidity. They then raised another HK$5.5 billon selling some old 777s.
So if we are losing HK1.125 billon per month we have enough liquidity to last 22 months before calling on Swire or Qatar to provide additional liquidity or selling further assets.
As a signifiant proportion of our pay is only paid if we fly (hourly duty pay), we have already made big enough concessions, let alone those who have salary reductions of 20% or 50%. Any further requests by the company are unwarranted. There is even less need for long term concessions. And yes, I do know the company will love the opportunity to stick it to use.
main_dog
6th Jun 2020, 03:26
Hear hear!
To be fair I could countenance more temporary concessions, let’s face it, this is the most serious crisis to face aviation in our lifetimes. However retaining their entire workforce (with an eye to taking full advantage of the eventual recovery) whilst looking for permanent concessions would indeed be an opportunistic corporate money grab.
Fuel hedging losses....
2014 HK$3.7B
2015 HK$8.4B
2016 HK$8.4B
2017 HK$6.3B
2018 HK$1.4B
2019 HK$100M
(Google search....caveat emptor)
AllWobbly
6th Jun 2020, 06:11
CX Group reports loss of HK$4.5 billon 1/4 of this calendar year.
https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/transport/article/3084514/cathay-pacific-and-cathay-dragon-report-combined-hk45
At the end of March they reported they had HK$20 billon in liquidity. They then raised another HK$5.5 billon selling some old 777s.
So if we are losing HK1.125 billon per month we have enough liquidity to last 22 months before calling on Swire or Qatar to provide additional liquidity or selling further assets.
As a signifiant proportion of our salaries is only paid if we fly, we have already made big enough concessions, let alone those who have salary reductions of 20% or 50%. Any further requests by the company are unwarranted. There is even less need for long term concessions. And yes, I do know the company will love the opportunity to stick it to use.
2019 annual report- operating expenses 105,000 million HK$. Revenue this year? Not much.
controlledrest
6th Jun 2020, 07:23
Much of this 'loss' is a book loss, not a cash loss, so the liquidity position is even better. No reason whatsoever for concessions. Google Forbes article, things aren't aren't as bad as one would think.
Asturias56
6th Jun 2020, 08:27
I'm astonished............. do you REALLY think that's the case? that the airline isn't going to turn the screws until you scream???? CX wasn't a brilliant investment pre-covid - right now, and with the developing political rucus with the USA it look even sicker.
You're also likely to be looking at people pulling the strings who know what the other Chinese Airlines have as T&C - they're going to compare & contrast................ You have absolutely no leverage here - if CX went bust it wouldn't be noticed - the others airlines would just step in
Will IB Fayed
6th Jun 2020, 11:11
As a signifiant proportion of our salaries is only paid if we fly,
WTF?
Do you even work for CX? If you're POS18, how is it you have an opinion?
Bokpiel
6th Jun 2020, 16:49
WTF?
Do you even work for CX? If you're POS18, how is it you have an opinion?
I was thinking the same... Not significant at all. We aren’t cabin crew.
controlledrest
7th Jun 2020, 04:11
I'm astonished............. do you REALLY think that's the case? that the airline isn't going to turn the screws until you scream????
No, I REALLY didn't say that. I REALLY believe that the company will stick it to us. I also REALLY believe that in CX's case there isn't a compelling financial reason for us to be shafted. It doesn't matter what other airlines pay, with seniority most of us are stuck where we are. CX has the liquidity to ride this out without screwing us over.
controlledrest
7th Jun 2020, 04:15
I was thinking the same... Not significant at all. We aren’t cabin crew.
For those of us with families in HKG, the Hourly Duty Pay is significant.
Don't forget we were also screwed over for 13th, the profit sharing scheme is a joke and regardless of record profits in past years we haven't received a profit share and most of us have given SLS.
mngmt mole
7th Jun 2020, 15:21
It can be safely said that the company will apply the 13th month in the same way they do the profit sharing. In other words, nothing more than a laughable sentence in our COS.
Flex88
7th Jun 2020, 20:43
No, I REALLY didn't say that. I REALLY believe that the company will stick it to us. I also REALLY believe that in CX's case there isn't a compelling financial reason for us to be shafted. It doesn't matter what other airlines pay, with seniority most of us are stuck where we are. CX has the liquidity to ride this out without screwing us over.
" CX has the liquidity to ride this out without screwing us over."
What planet are you living on ? Certainly NOT the one named reality !!!
AllWobbly
8th Jun 2020, 00:28
" CX has the liquidity to ride this out without screwing us over."
What planet are you living on ? Certainly NOT the one named reality !!!
My opinion is CX as a group has expanded too quickly and at the wrong time. I think it will be a straight forward but stark choice job losses or a new contract.
mngmt mole
8th Jun 2020, 13:20
Looks like CX's window of opportunity to screw its employees is narrowing quickly...
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/07/stock-market-futures-open-to-close-news.html
SaulGoodman
8th Jun 2020, 13:59
Looks like CX's window of opportunity to screw its employees is narrowing quickly...
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/07/stock-market-futures-open-to-close-news.html
The stock market is currently only chasing emotions during this pandemic. It has actually been a long time since it reflected the actual ecobomy...
mngmt mole
8th Jun 2020, 16:10
The stock market doesn't "reflect" the "real economy". It looks ahead approx 6 months.... Therefore, it's telling you that things are getting better as we go forward.
Yonosoy Marinero
9th Jun 2020, 01:33
No need for concessions?
The problem isn't the need for them or not, it's whether CX can get away with forcing us to take them. And unless you believe the job market is hot at the moment, then yes, they can.
When they pull a BA and dismiss everyone with 24 hours to sign POS18 (or an even POS-er 20), what do you think most will do?
In fact, standby for incoming... trading has halted this morning.
This storm is only starting, and we'll all pay for it for the rest of our careers.
Yonosoy Marinero
9th Jun 2020, 03:26
Air China, most likely.
Progress Wanchai
9th Jun 2020, 03:47
No need for concessions?
The problem isn't the need for them or not, it's whether CX can get away with forcing us to take them. And unless you believe the job market is hot at the moment, then yes, they can.
When they pull a BA and dismiss everyone with 24 hours to sign POS18 (or an even POS-er 20), what do you think most will do?
In fact, standby for incoming... trading has halted this morning.
This storm is only starting, and we'll all pay for it for the rest of our careers.
Exactly.
”Need” and “Want” have been interchangeable verbs for years on both sides of the industrial table. For years each side has been able to industrially counter the other side’s wants.
I’m honestly out of ideas to how the pilots will counter management’s wants this time. I suspect the nil all draw deadlock is about to be broken.
No, it is Carrie Lam!
30 billion
fly1981
9th Jun 2020, 04:02
https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/hong-kong-economy/article/3088130/trading-cathay-pacific-hal (https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/hong-kong-economy/article/3088130/trading-cathay-pacific-halted-hong-kong-stock)
there you go( if scmp is to be believed)
Yonosoy Marinero
9th Jun 2020, 04:28
Well, I did NOT see that coming...
Maybe the 2 advisors they put on the board can prevent the next fuel hedging or cargo fine debacle.
:}
Dragon Pacific
9th Jun 2020, 04:37
That will finish off bases. Can’t use government money to keep people employed in other countries.
As long as bases are cheaper by way of whatever metrics they use, they will remain.
cxorcist
9th Jun 2020, 05:05
It’s a big, public loan that comes with board oversight. On its face, no big deal. What I’m wondering is how involved the Mainland ChiComs are in this move... They own 30% of CX and, well, 100% of Carrie Lam!
viking avenger
9th Jun 2020, 05:31
That will finish off bases. Can’t use government money to keep people employed in other countries.
when all the based pilots still pay HKIRD Taxes?
That will finish off bases. Can’t use government money to keep people employed in other countries.
What BS......you’d like that wouldn’t you!!
Bases are the cheapest Pilots in Cx bar none. A country mile cheaper....and they will take a 25% pay cut this year alone on top of their already 30% cheaper salaries....
OK4Wire
9th Jun 2020, 06:20
What BS......you’d like that wouldn’t you!!
Bases are the cheapest Pilots in Cx bar none. A country mile cheaper....and they will take a 25% pay cut this year alone on top of their already 30% cheaper salaries....
Amazing how few can see this.
BuzzBox
9th Jun 2020, 06:30
That will finish off bases. Can’t use government money to keep people employed in other countries.
You seem to forget that CX also employs a number of ground staff in 'other countries'. According to your logic, CX would need to get rid of them too!
fly1981
9th Jun 2020, 06:46
What BS......you’d like that wouldn’t you!!
Bases are the cheapest Pilots in Cx bar none. A country mile cheaper....and they will take a 25% pay cut this year alone on top of their already 30% cheaper salaries....
not cheaper than cos 18
not cheaper than cos 18
Wrong....still cheaper than Cos18......
Top increment year 17 SCN pay in Aus is still around $500,000 HKD less than HKG SCN on Cos18..
Plus based Pilots get no expat allowances at all, zip nada zilch.
Their basic wage is still cheaper than HK at current exchange rates, by a country mile, then throw in the $360,000 yr housing cash and possible up to $180,000 yr education ( up to 3 kids ) and maybe ( if you’re lucky ) 13th month........
ChrissyPrezzie
9th Jun 2020, 07:32
The fact that CL chose to save Cathay over HKA says a lot! Our pals over HKA must be bummed by this.
The fact that CL chose to save Cathay over HKA says a lot! Our pals over HKA must be bummed by this.
dunno
it appears HKA might have been saved on the QT already
time will tell
MENELAUS
9th Jun 2020, 09:12
Wrong....still cheaper than Cos18......
Top increment year 17 SCN pay in Aus is still around $500,000 HKD less than HKG SCN on Cos18..
Plus based Pilots get no expat allowances at all, zip nada zilch.
Their basic wage is still cheaper than HK at current exchange rates, by a country mile, then throw in the $360,000 yr housing cash and possible up to $180,000 yr education ( up to 3 kids ) and maybe ( if you’re lucky ) 13th month........
HKG Cn tops out at year 4. There is no
SCN decrement
Progress Wanchai
9th Jun 2020, 10:26
Wrong....still cheaper than Cos18......
Top increment year 17 SCN pay in Aus is still around $500,000 HKD less than HKG SCN on Cos18..
Plus based Pilots get no expat allowances at all, zip nada zilch.
Their basic wage is still cheaper than HK at current exchange rates, by a country mile, then throw in the $360,000 yr housing cash and possible up to $180,000 yr education ( up to 3 kids ) and maybe ( if you’re lucky ) 13th month........
The captain scales aren’t universally reflective of the comparison between bases and COS18. Look at the FO scales. Let’s face it, there are a lot more FO’s in the company than captains.
Using your Australian based scenario, an Aus based FO on the top increment is on about 10% more than his COS18 equivalent, including housing. When just basic wage is taken into account the Hkg FO is on 65% of the Aus equivalent.
It’s a big, public loan that comes with board oversight. On its face, no big deal. What I’m wondering is how involved the Mainland ChiComs are in this move... They own 30% of CX and, well, 100% of Carrie Lam!
swire is done with cx.... on its face, they are still the majority shareholder, but with 2 'party nominated secretaries' watching, if those 2 decided to provide "opinion" in board meetings, do you think the Swire management will dare to say no?
This will probably also mark the end to any kind of industrial action, regardless of group, the Government has specifically said they will 'speak out' when it involves 'public interest', so anything that would disrupt travel, that's it....
Hyg, a lot will have to happen for Swire to give up on Cathay.
It is more than just about money for the family.
Hyg, a lot will have to happen for Swire to give up on Cathay.
It is more than just about money for the family.
didn't say they will give up... just saying they don't have the ultimate call on decisions like they used to anymore
Sam Ting Wong
9th Jun 2020, 11:58
Almost all based guys are eligible for Arapa B scale on return to HK, so the COS18 comparison is a bit flawed.