WW2 RAF Pensacola USA Training

[RogerRB]

I am researching and writing about a late friend of mine who, in 1943 - 1944, went to the Pensacola Naval Base and did flight training on the Catalina flying boat and subsequently flew Catalina's in the middle east in the last years of the war.
Can anyone tell me anything about Catalina flight training; I have contacted the Pensacola Naval Base archives but they cannot help.

[beardy]

I am researching and writing about a late friend of mine who, in 1943 - 1944, went to the Pensacola Naval Base and did flight training on the Catalina flying boat and subsequently flew Catalina's in the middle east in the last years of the war.
Can anyone tell me anything about Catalina flight training; I have contacted the Pensacola Naval Base archives but they cannot help.
​​​​​​My father also went to Pensacola. All of his training was on the PBY5a, the flying boat (without wheels) , not the b which was amphibious and he never flew. As far as I am aware there is only one complete 'a' in existence, it is in the museum at Pensacola and in my father's log book. It was spooky to stand near the only example and the actual aircraft my father flew. Pensacola is quite a set up.

[dduxbury310]

Sorry to have to interrupt, but the PBY-5A WAS the amphibian version of the Catalina, and in fact many PBY-5A's still survive today precisely BECAUSE they were amphibious, that is they did not have to alight on the sea or a lake if a "land" airfield was available in the vicinity. Operating aircraft off water (salt or fresh) always seems to have been more hazardous than using an airfield (for various reasons), and operating off salt water usually guarantees a shorter life for any aircraft made of metal, or containing metal parts. A good way of obtaining an idea of how pilots were trained to fly this type of aircraft (and broadly applicable to many other larger-sized flying boats) would be to obtain a copy of the RAF Pilots' notes for the type (or an equivalent US Navy booklet). Perhaps other forumites might like to suggest where such publications might be obtained for a reasonable price.
David D

[Fareastdriver]

My father also went to Pensacola though he ended up flying Halifaxs on a Met. Reconnaissance Squadron. I believe that after the war there were a few reunions and I believe that this gathering is one of them. It is an old picture that has been rolled up for decades so there are a few lines. Maybe somebody can recognise somebody.

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1418/img20200606_08113879_c4ef0574acd39f48bbbbb06019727558cc70449 c.jpg

[beardy]

Sorry to have to interrupt, but the PBY-5A WAS the amphibian version of the Catalina, and in fact many PBY-5A's still survive today precisely BECAUSE they were amphibious, that is they did not have to alight on the sea or a lake if a "land" airfield was available in the vicinity. Operating aircraft off water (salt or fresh) always seems to have been more hazardous than using an airfield (for various reasons), and operating off salt water usually guarantees a shorter life for any aircraft made of metal, or containing meta partsl. A good way of obtaining an idea of how pilots were trained to fly this type of aircraft (and broadly applicable to many other larger-sized flying boats) would be to obtain a copy of the RAF Pilots' notes for the type (or an equivalent US Navy booklet). Perhaps other forumites might like to suggest where such publications might be obtained for a reasonable price.
David D

You are of course correct it was the PBY5 that is should have been referring to as non-amphibious.

[Whinging Tinny]

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/460x480/30021314827_1468f1b5f865bb2f5e1b0b32736339a7782b6410.jpg
ISBN: 10 0 646 19079 2
ISBN: 13 9780646190792

[Fareastdriver]

I have found a photo of an earlier reunion. It was taken with a wide angle lens so I have to load it in two bits so there may be a couple of twins.

Edited to add Sidevalve has shot a couple of the twins so that they are in one picture..

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1508x614/cats_1__5efd87c5fd9fff3bf35105b8cfd1382bf6e8fdf9.jpg

[ExAscoteer2]

My Maternal Uncle trained at Pensacola as part of the 'Towers Scheme', having done BFTS at Grosse Ile near Detroit. At Pensacola he flew both the PBY-5 and the PBY-5A.

The non-amphibians were flown out of Perido Bay to the west of Pensacola itself. If you look on Google maps you can see the remains of the beaching area (it's now a car park and part of the Blue Angel Recreation Park, Battleship Row). Just to the east you can see the remains of the original NAS Pensacola from where the 5As operated.

My uncle told me that with the non-amphibians, they would taxy in towards the beach, then the groundcrew would attach the external beaching gear such that the aircraft could now taxy out of the water. Unsurpisngly the guys going into the water were all black.

[oxenos]

Perhaps other forumites might like to suggest where such publications might be obtained for a reasonable price.

Being ex- Coastal I have always been interested in flying boats, and the Catalina in particular. I even fly a radio control model of one. (R.A.F. markings of course) .
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/545x364/035_1__99f9801931a761d10e4a7c29baf3b164a705916b.jpg
I was able to buy a facsimile copy of Pilots notes at the flying boat museum at Pembroke Dock a few years ago. They may be able to post you a copy, and the South American river also has them. A fascinating read

[beardy]

My Maternal Uncle trained at Pensacola as part of the 'Towers Scheme', having done BFTS at Grosse Ile near Detroit. At Pensacola he flew both the PBY-5 and the PBY-5A.

The non-amphibians were flown out of Perido Bay to the west of Pensacola itself. If you look on Google maps you can see the remains of the beaching area (it's now a car park and part of the Blue Angel Recreation Park, Battleship Row). Just to the east you can see the remains of the original NAS Pensacola from where the 5As operated.

My uncle told me that with the non-amphibians, they would taxy in towards the beach, then the groundcrew would attach the external beaching gear such that the aircraft could now taxy out of the water. Unsurpisngly the guys going into the water were all black.
My father also trained at Gross Iles

[capngrog]

My uncle told me that with the non-amphibians, they would taxy in towards the beach, then the groundcrew would attach the external beaching gear such that the aircraft could now taxy out of the water. Unsurprisingly the guys going into the water were all black.

I have seen many photographs and videos of seaplane beaching gear crews, but never noticed any black sailors doing the work. Were the all black beaching crews unique to Pensacola?

Cheers,
Grog

[ExAscoteer2]

I have no idea I'm afraid, that was his recollection.

Being from UK my Uncle was somewhat shocked by the segregation of the time in the USA, and I think it stuck in his memory.

[cavuman1]

oxenos, I want one of those!

- Ed

[megan]

PBY manuals here.

https://pbycatalina.com/pby-catalina-canso-manuals/

When we went through Pensacola in '67 a PBY fuselage with the skin removed on the starboard side sat in the survival school classroom, room perhaps previously served as a PBY transition I guess.

[capngrog]

Being ex- Coastal I have always been interested in flying boats, and the Catalina in particular. I even fly a radio control model of one. (R.A.F. markings of course) .American river also has them. A fascinating read

The PBY has been one of my favorite aircraft ever since I can remember. When I was 5 or 6 years old and living in Miami, Florida (USA), the "Black Cats" out of Key West, would frequently be seen flying over. At eight years of age, I even got to sit in the cockpit of a PBY during an airshow at the old Opa Locka Marine Corps Air Base, circa 1952.

I have a radio controlled PBY which I fly from the lake behind my house. It's not large (54 inch wing span) and is powered by two electric motors; however, it is a delight to fly and handles like a trainer.

Cheers,
Grog

[oxenos]

oxenos, I want one of those!
Funny you should say that as I am selling one (No, I am not advertising - the postage to Ohio would be excessive) I bought two, to use one for spares, but it has proved tough as old boots, and any repairs needed are easy. I suspect capngrog has the same model, made by Dyn**, and easily available in the States. As sold, the floats are fixed in the down position, but there is a whole website devoted to this one kit, and on it I found a way to fit retracts. Mine also drops little (inert) depth charges. I have not flown it off water - with a more powerful battery it takes off from grass, and the bottom of the hull is reinforced for grass T/O and landing. With the bigger battery, retracts, depth charge mod and paint job, mine is rather heavier than standard, so the handling is not quite trainer like, but it looks superb in the air.
Apologies for thread drift.

[beardy]

PBY manuals here.

https://pbycatalina.com/pby-catalina-canso-manuals/

When we went through Pensacola in '67 a PBY fuselage with the skin removed on the starboard side sat in the survival school classroom, room perhaps previously served as a PBY transition I guess.
It is now in the museum. It was a PBY5

[M-62A3]

RogerRB,
If you have not had any success in finding what you need, here are my suggestions for possible contacts and sources:
!) RAF Museum Archive. If you do not have your friend's logbook from Pensacola, there may be some logs that would help you in the Museum's collection. From my experience there, the archive may be able to search their logbook holdings using the search term "Pensacola" to find suitable examples. An appointment for a visit may be necessary.
2) Fleet Air Arm Museum Archive. I have no experience of their archive - but RAF training at Grosse Ille and Pensacola, etc., came under the "Towers Scheme" and was funded via the U.S. Navy. The F.A.A. were major beneficiary of the Towers Scheme and may have useful holdings - Course lists, etc.
3) The Catalina Society - operators of the Duxford based G-APBYA. The editor of society's newsletter & website is a great source of Catalina information and may know something of the Pensacola training programme..
4) "British Naval Aviation in World War II." by Gilbert S. Guinn & G.H. Bennett. A very good book on the "Towers Scheme" overall.. There are several pages relating to flying boat training at Pensacola.
5) You will find there is an address of a British Pensacola Veterans at British Veterans Organizations (http://www.angelfire.com/ri/georgev/britishveteransorganizations.html)
I am not sure if this society still functions - many such veterans associations have now disbanded due to the age of the membership. Their resources may be in the hands of one of the descendants or may have been lodged with such as the RAF Museum.
Hope this helps, M-62A3

[Chugalug2]

PBY-5 and -5A Manuals can be read here, but downloading requires registration and a payment :-

https://www.avialogs.com/search-results?view=results&word=UEJZLTU

We had a USAF War Studies Instructor at Cranwell at the start of the 60's. He said that the PBY took-off at 90, flew at 90, and alighted at 90. Methinks he may be outed by close study of these manuals as having been somewhat economical with the truth...

[oxenos]

We had a USAF War Studies Instructor at Cranwell at the start of the 60's. He said that the PBY took-off at 90, flew at 90, and alighted at 90. Methinks he may be outed by close study of these manuals as having been somewhat economical with the truth..

I had heard the same figures, perhaps from the same Instructor. Having got a copy of the R.A.F Pilots notes (see post 9) , his figures were not far out. Eased off the water at 60-65 kts, but then the nose was lowered to accelerate to 85 kts - best climb speed, and above safety speed of 80 kts. Graph shows range speed as 96 kts when heavy, reducing to 88 when light, but text recommends 90 to 92 kts.
Graph suggests endurance speed at all weights of below 80 kts, but text says "lowest speed at which the aircraft can be comfortably flown; at light loads this will be about 80 knots I.A.S."

[Chugalug2]

Then I take back everything that I said. :ok:

Thanks oxenos. Like many pilots I have always admired the Catalina and the Sunderland 'boats. We had an ex Sunderland captain on 30 Sqn, who said that you needed to know as much about seamanship as you did about airmanship to operate them. The first time I had to amend QRs was at Cranwell. A whole section dedicated to hard lying allowances, spelling out the conditions required for eligibility (ie due to adverse wx having to spend all night taxying into wind, having cast off from the moorings) had to be removed. It was the end of an era. :sad:

[megan]

The Cat still holds the record for the longest non stop regular airline flight at 32 hours 9 minutes, Perth, Australia to Ceylon. Operated by QANTAS during the war with five crew, max payload was three pax and 152 lbs of mail (put onto microfiche to reduce weight). Have comprehensive details of the operation written by the then Chief Pilot should anyone want to PM.

[threeputt]

My father graduated, as a pilot, from USNATC Pensacola (Squadron 8A) on 11th Oct 1944. During his time there he flew the PBY2, 5 and 5B. In all he accumulated 45:25hrs including one operational sortie.
3P

[RogerRB]

Thank you all for the wealth of information you have provided for me.
I remember Rod telling me that he flew the non-amphibious Catalina. His daughter has promised me his Flight Log Book as she is clearing out his house, when I get that I will be able to make more progress with my research.
I will also contact The Catalina Preservation Society I tried to get a copy of Pensacola Pilot through Amazon but failed miserably...no stock!.

[Whinging Tinny]

I will also contact The Catalina Preservation Society I tried to get a copy of Pensacola Pilot through Amazon but failed miserably...no stock!.

This place has a couple of 2nd hand copies:
https://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?sts=t&cm_sp=SearchF-_-home-_-Results&kn=&an=Bernard+Young&tn=Pensacola+Pilot&isbn=

[RogerRB]

Thank you Whinging Tinny for the 'Pensacola Pilot' lead; I contacted the book shop and ordered a copy.

[ScotsSLF]

I've just seen this post (3 years after the original!) but my father was in the Admiral Towers scheme between Dec 1943 and July 1944 where he did his pilot training starting in Stearman's, then Harvards and finally to Catalinas. He then moved to the Middle East with Coastal Command (again on Catalinas) until the end of the war. I am trying to find out more about his training which appears to have included a fair amount of flying at Grosse Ile (near Michagan) and Moncton in Canada with his in addition to his main training at Pensacola.

[NutLoose]

Wohooo, I feel the need to put up a photo... :O

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52334084599_6bf8dfcae2_b.jpg

[Ninthace]

My father went through Pensacola and ended up on Catalinas and subsequently Sunderlands. He flew a Catalina PY5B that ultimately ended up ashore and now has its own website. The spooky thing was the website had a crew photograph, which I instantly recognised, as I have a copy of the original picture in a box of "treasures" I inherited from him.

[RogerRB]

Good evening to both NutLoose and Ninthace,
My late friend Rod Satchwell went from ATC; RAFVR; Canada; Grosse iLE: Pensacola: By then the war had ended and his finished up in Palestine; doing what, I haven't found out yet!
I have his complete training record from EFTS onwards.....

[dduxbury310]

A couple of "nick-names" not often seen, which relates to Catalinas. In files of official correspondence on the allocation of various PBYs during WW2, I have seen the terms "Seacats" and "Landcats" sometimes applied to (respectively) the non-amphibious and the amphibious models, merely as a handy (short) reminder of an important difference between these aircraft. Possibly just in case some file reader was a little bit fuzzy as to which model was which - might have caused some embarrassment if the wrong model was sent to an unsuspecting customer.

[brakedwell]

An RAF Sunderland was the first aircraft I flew in. We were on a two week CCF summer camp at RAF Pembroke Dock in 1952 and I flew almost every day. Most of the Captains were SNCO's and I was very impressed with their life. I did half a dozen 8-9 hour patrols over the Atlantic and earned my keep by frying egg anf bacon sandwiches! The most interesting trip was up to Short Brothers in Belfast to pick up spare parts. We landed in the harbour and taxied to Shorts Harbour Jetty, collected the spares and returned to Pembroke Dock. I remember the sea being very rough during the take-off.

[Alchad]

Beautiful aircraft, lucky enough to photograph at the Chalke Valley Air Show in 2015
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1333/gk5a4268_51d540eac5d42530bad29b90375aba8e98c60b93.jpg

[Snowbound 612]

The museum at NAS Pensacola has a great Catalina cutaway. This was originally a Lend Lease aircraft with a Brit construction number. It was damaged in 1944 and then became a display at the survival training center until being moved to the museum in 1997. Sorry, can't post URLs yet. Some nice sites if you google Catalina cutaway.

[Geriaviator]

My friend and a great instructor, Desmond Mock, trained at Pensacola and was posted to fly Catalinas from Lough Erne in Northern Ireland, where he became an instructor at Killadeas. While it wasn't done to say so at the time, the Cat crews preferred their Twin Wasps to Merlins which were considered prone to coolant leaks on 22-hour patrols. Postwar he became an instructor on Harvards and Vampires at Cranwell.

[megan]

The museum at NAS Pensacola has a great Catalina cutaway. This was originally a Lend Lease aircraft with a Brit construction number. It was damaged in 1944 and then became a display at the survival training centerRemember it well, Jan & Feb '67.

[Bucky123]

I am researching and writing about a late friend of mine who, in 1943 - 1944, went to the Pensacola Naval Base and did flight training on the Catalina flying boat and subsequently flew Catalina's in the middle east in the last years of the war.
Can anyone tell me anything about Catalina flight training; I have contacted the Pensacola Naval Base archives but they cannot help.

I realise this is an old thread but are you still looking for information? My dad trained at Pensacola and got USN wings and RAF wings (not actualy allowed) and came back to serve in WWII in late 44

[megan]

My dad trained at Pensacola and got USN wings and RAF wings (not actualy allowed)I was Oz Navy and trained to wings standard at Pensacola graduating early '68, was standard practice to be pinned with USN wings, couldn't wear them when arriving home of course.


https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1600x2000/l020_07a10b021caadd4a2404be68304dd563c27a61c7.jpg

[greyturner]

Here's another story of a pilot who trained at Pensacola. Search for this:"Finding ‘Wings’ – Reuniting a Cornish Pilot’s WW2 Documents With Their Family"

[RogerRB]

I realise this is an old thread but are you still looking for information? My dad trained at Pensacola and got USN wings and RAF wings (not actualy allowed) and came back to serve in WWII in late 44
Yes please; did he train on Catalina's?
Any information you have about your fathers training gratefully received...

[Union Jack]

I was Oz Navy and trained to wings standard at Pensacola graduating early '68, was standard practice to be pinned with USN wings, couldn't wear them when arriving home of course.


https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1600x2000/l020_07a10b021caadd4a2404be68304dd563c27a61c7.jpg

I promise I'm not being cheeky, especially having done exchange service with your lot, but do you get a lot of double-takes from French people?:D

Jack

[megan]

Can't say we had anything to do with the French, ships visiting French Pacific islands would have been about the extent of it. Understand the point you make, Nelson would have found himself quite at home.

[Union Jack]

Can't say we had anything to do with the French, ships visiting French Pacific islands would have been about the extent of it. Understand the point you make, Nelson would have found himself quite at home.

My dear Sir, As a keen reader of your posts, I was actually referring to your more than passing resemblance to the handsome young President of France.:D I went to the same school as him in Paris - albeit not quite at the same time! - and, as the only qualified French interpreter in the East Australia Area, I was more than happy to be called on as the liaison officer for the visiting ships to which you refer in view of the excellent parties they held.:ok:

Jack

[Pat Atkins]

Nothing to add re Catalinas, sorry! Just wanted to add that my uncle Don Atkins followed the Moncton-Gross Isle-Pensacola route of the Towers Scheme. He received his wings there in ‘43 but then ended up on Stirlings at HCU. He did all but one of his 36 ops with 148 (Special Duties) Sqdn flying Halifaxes out of Brindisi; the other (his first) was with 624 (SD) Sqdn at Blida.