Fedex Overshoots in Mumbai....

[MeLuvUlongtime]

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/business/india-business/fedex-aircraft-overshoots-runway-at-mumbai-airport-all-safe/articleshow/76172607.cms

[Lonewolf_50]

From the OP Link:
FEDEX MD-11.
Cyclone Nisarga mentioned as increasing crosswinds.
Landed RWY 14 "But it could not stop on time and went out of the runway by nine meters"
Would be interested to see the METAR on this one.

[ManaAdaSystem]

Ahh, runway 14! Fond memories of landing on that runway. Not grooved, very uneven and very slippery when wet. Autobrakes max and max reverse recommended.
This FedEx is not the first one go go off that runway, and will not be the last. I seem to recall an Air India 747 with the nose over the end of that runway.
Had to use it when somebody stole the localizer antenna for runway 27. That runway is also a trap. Looks like a long nice runway until you find out not so much runway is left when you subtract the underrun.

[KingAir1978]

vabb 031700z 28010g20kt 3000 hz few012 sct018 few025tcu bkn080 28/25 q1002 tempo 1500 shra
vabb 031630z 28009g19kt 3000 -dz few012 sct018 few030cb bkn080 28/25 q1001 tempo 1500 shra
vabb 031600z 29008kt 3000 -dz few012 sct018 few030cb ovc080 28/25 q1001 tempo 1500 shra
vabb 031530z 28010g20kt 3000 -dz few012 sct018 few030cb ovc080 28/25 q1000 tempo 1500 shra

vabb 031500z 29006kt 4000 -dz few012 sct018 few030cb ovc080 28/25 q0999 becmg 3000 -ra
vabb 031430z 30005kt 5000 -dz few008 bkn015 few030cb ovc080 27/24 q0999 tempo 2000 shra
vabb 031400z 32009kt 4000 -dz few008 bkn015 few030cb ovc080 28/24 q0998 tempo 1500 shra
vabb 031330z 33011kt 4000 -dz few008 bkn015 few030cb ovc080 28/25 q0998 tempo 1500 shra

vabb 031300z 30009kt 4000 -dz few008 bkn015 few030cb ovc080 27/25 q0996 tempo 1500 shra
vabb 031230z 32013kt 4000 -dz few008 bkn015 few030cb ovc080 28/25 q0995 tempo 1500 shra
vabb 031200z 30012kt 3500 -dz few008 bkn015 few030cb ovc080 28/25 q0994 becmg 4000 -dz
vabb 031130z 31015kt 3500 -dz few008 bkn015 few030cb ovc080 27/25 q0994 tempo 1500 ra

vabb 031100z 32014kt 3000 dz few008 bkn015 few030cb ovc080 27/25 q0993 tempo 1500 ra
vabb 031030z 33016kt 3000 -ra few008 bkn018 few030cb ovc080 27/25 q0992 tempo 1500 ra
vabb 031000z 33021kt 3000 ra few010 bkn018 few030cb ovc080 27/25 q0992 tempo 1500 ra
vabb 030930z 34019kt 3000 ra few010 bkn018 few030cb ovc080 27/24 q0992 tempo 1500 ra

vabb 030900z 35021kt 2400 -ra few010 bkn018 few030cb ovc080 27/24 q0992 becmg 3000 -ra
vabb 030830z 03021g31kt 2200 dz few012 sct018 few030cb ovc080 28/24 q0993 tempo 1500 shra
vabb 030800z 02021g31kt 2200 dz few012 sct018 few030cb ovc080 28/24 q0994 tempo 1500 shra
vabb 030730z 02020g30kt 2200 -ra few012 sct018 few030cb ovc080 27/24 q0996 tempo 1500 shra

vabb 030700z 02013g23kt 2200 -ra few012 sct018 few030cb ovc080 27/25 q0996 tempo 1500 shra
vabb 030630z 03011g21kt 2200 -ra few012 sct018 few030cb ovc080 27/25 q0997 tempo 1500 shra
vabb 030600z 03010g20kt 2200 -ra few012 sct018 few030cb ovc080 27/25 q0998 tempo 1500 shra
vabb 030530z 03013g23kt 2200 -ra few012 sct018 few030cb ovc080 27/25 q0999 tempo 1500 shra

[Airbubba]

Ahh, runway 14! Fond memories of landing on that runway. Not grooved, very uneven and very slippery when wet. Autobrakes max and max reverse recommended.

Amen, been there, done that as well. :ok:

Had to use it when somebody stole the localizer antenna for runway 27. That runway is also a trap. Looks like a long nice runway until you find out not so much runway is left when you subtract the underrun.

I remember that one. They stole the antenna so they could sell the metal for scrap. :ugh:

And, doing the VOR to 32, you could see folks on the veranda sipping a Kingfisher as you whizzed past Trombay Hill.

[ManaAdaSystem]

Ay! Report Trombay hill in sight! Had 1 hour of extra fuel. It was enough. Just.

[Airbubba]

Would be interested to see the METAR on this one.

The runway excursion occurred at about 0645Z.

VABB 030600Z 03010G20KT 2200 -RA FEW012 SCT018 FEW030CB OVC080 27/25 Q0998 TEMPO 1500 SHRA

VABB 030630Z 03011G21KT 2200 -RA FEW012 SCT018 FEW030CB OVC080 27/25 Q0997 TEMPO 1500 SHRA

VABB 030700Z 02013G23KT 2200 -RA FEW012 SCT018 FEW030CB OVC080 27/25 Q0996 TEMPO 1500 SHRA

[vilas]

It's long time ago but I remember RW14 has a dip somewhere around maybe1000ft from the threshold if you float past that it gives a feeling of ballooning. Need to put the aircraft down. Two Air India aircraft have gone off the other end. The first one was B747-300 which was poor piloting landing in rain with no Auto brake, idle reverse and late insufficient manual braking led to that. The second one was B747-400 landing in the infamous deluge of 2005 that had breached the boundary wall and unnoticed some oil had floated in smearing the runway and making it slippery.

[Dan Winterland]

I saw a video of the overrun. It looked very wet judging by the spray being thrown up by the reversers.

[treadigraph]

https://twitter.com/i/status/1268193040172269574

[dixi188]

Why can't the media use the correct aviation terms, a few moments to check the web.
"Overshoot" is what a "Go Around" used to be called.
Running out of runway is "Overrun".

( Becoming a grumpy old man).

[Less Hair]

Might be depending on the country you are in and if civil or military? How about overshoot of localizer and centerline?

[FBW390]

Might be depending on the country you are in and if civil or military? How about overshoot of localizer and centerline?
dixi 188 is right: this is clearly an overrun.
Let's notice that this landing, with a wind from 030°, was with some tailwind, and on the shortest runway! LDA 14 = 2526 m! Instead of rwy 09 with LDA = 3045 m...And the MD-11 is notorious for having very high approach speed, due to its wing similar to the DC'10's, with a much heavier weight! So: tailwind, short runway, high approach speed, very wet runway: the recipe for disaster! Nearly avoided!
Why couldn't they ask to land with the ILS 09? Or request it? Anybody know if they did? I know for instance, the regular LH MD-11 bound for IST old Ataturk airport, used to ask and obtain 35 L or R for landing instead of the shorter 05 used by every other aircraft...
Remark: landing 32 in BOM, headwind, was not an option, due to VIS 2200 meters, and minima 2500m, as a VOR approach, no ILS...
Let's be positive: what can we learn? With a widebody aircraft, in this heavy rain situation, either hold for weather to improve, an/or request the longest runway into the wind! Not tailwind!!!

FBW 390

[Less Hair]

I'd call this an overrun too. But not some go around an overshoot.

[FullWings]

Interesting that on the video it sounds like more reverse thrust was being applied as the aircraft comes into frame, which implies it wasn’t being fully utilised at that point on what appears to be a pretty low-friction surface near the end of the runway...

[Pistonprop]

Not easy to tell, but from what I can see, it doesn't appear to have left the tarmac.

[ManaAdaSystem]

Did he have a compressor stall on the left engine before he turned left?

[Locked door]

Two sets of compressor stalls visible on the left engine. One set as he emerges from behind the pillar and one set just before the left turn. The right engine may well be doing the same thing but we can’t see it. Probably a result of max reverse at low speed.

It sounds like max reverse was applied when the crew realised the remaining pavement was insufficient, all that water on TDZ rubber deposits doesn’t help.

[KingAir1978]

Interesting that on the video it sounds like more reverse thrust was being applied as the aircraft comes into frame, which implies it wasn’t being fully utilised at that point on what appears to be a pretty low-friction surface near the end of the runway...
I'm not sure from how far the video was shot. It would take the noise several seconds to reach the camera man. Landing on RWY 09 would seem more sensible, but knowing Indian ATC, it would be a pain in the neck to get your request granted.

[Airbubba]

ILS to runway 09 was out of service which may have been a player. Maybe the thieves stole the antennas again to sell for scrap metal.

VABB A0655/20 ILS RWY 09 NOT AVBL DUE TO REPLACEMENT OF EQUIPMENT. 13 MAY 05:00 2020 UNTIL 15 JUN 05:00 2020 ESTIMATED. CREATED: 13 MAY 05:02 2020

Not easy to tell, but from what I can see, it doesn't appear to have left the tarmac.

They may have just put the nosewheel in the mud. I had a colleague land somewhere else and find out that a runway exit he planned to use was Notamed closed on page 17 of the paperwork. He dragged a bogie through the grass trying to turn around on the runway. No damage but since it occurred before he exited the runway after landing it was declared a runway excursion and a major investigation complete with hearings and transcribed testimony was held.

[safetypee]

Remembering that videos can be misleading and that we tend to see patterns and fit events to what we perceive; left reverse cancelled before the right - if at all, visual cue from spray pattern.

Consider effect of asymmetric thrust coupled with large nose-wheel steering input on a wet (flooded?) runway, plus crosswind. Or even use of mixed forward / reverse thrust - a mistaken belief that it could help turning.


Similarities with the accident here ? https://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20190226-0

Noting that the coupling / direction of excursion was reversed, but so too the direction of aircraft travel !


https://www.skybrary.aero/bookshelf/books/871.pdf

https://www.skybrary.aero/bookshelf/books/868.pdf

https://www.skybrary.aero/bookshelf/books/869.pdf

[Maninthebar]

Similarities with the accident here ? https://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20190226-0


Contributing factors include:
"increased psycho-emotional tension of the crew members due to long dissatisfaction and emotional discussion of instructions and actions of ATC controllers. At the same time, the instructions and actions of the ATC service controllers were in line with established procedures.".

That will be an interesting report

[FBW390]

ILS to runway 09 was out of service which may have been a player. Maybe the thieves stole the antennas again to sell for scrap metal.





They may have just put the nosewheel in the mud. I had a colleague land somewhere else and find out that a runway exit he planned to use was Notamed closed on page 17 of the paperwork. He dragged a bogie through the grass trying to turn around on the runway. No damage but since it occurred before he exited the runway after landing it was declared a runway excursion and a major investigation complete with hearings and transcribed testimony was held.
That's what NOTAMs are for! See which tawiways and runways are closed or shortened! Always interesting to read the ones for departure, destination and alternate airports! It could avoid you BIG troubles!

[Airbubba]

That's what NOTAMs are for! See which tawiways and runways are closed or shortened! Always interesting to read the ones for departure, destination and alternate airports! It could avoid you BIG troubles!

Don't know how he missed it. :confused:

A short sample of the many pages of current Bombay Notams:

VABB A1348/19 REFER AIP SUP 117/2018, PART 2-NOTE, DELETE NOTE(II-ROMAN) AND (III-ROMAN) AND AMEND AIP INDIA ACCORDINGLY. 26 JUL 00:00 2019 UNTIL PERM. CREATED: 25 JUL 04:53 2019

VABB A1355/18 REF EAIP VERSION 2.0 VABB AD 2.20 LOCAL AD REGULATIONS, SIMULTANEOUS ACFT MOVEMENT TO/FM ADJ STANDS IS NOT PERMITTED. AMEND VABB AD 2.20 ACCORDINGLY. 27 JUN 12:30 2018 UNTIL PERM. CREATED: 27 JUN 12:41 2018 VABB A1372/19 BARRETT WITH XBAR AT 150M. INSERT INFO IN VABB AD 2.14 APCH AND RWY LGT RWY 27 REMARKS COLUMN 10 AND AMEND AIP INDIA ACCORDINGLY. 27 JUL 00:00 2019 UNTIL PERM. CREATED: 26 JUL 11:57 2019

VABB A1453/19 1. RWY 14/32 UPGRADED FOR ACFT OPS UPTO CODE F. 2. ACFT OPS UPTO CODE F PERMITTED FM ALL RWY. INSERT INFO IN VABB AD 2.23 ADDITIONAL INFO AND AMEND AIP INDIA ACCORDINGLY. 15 AUG 00:00 2019 UNTIL PERM. CREATED: 08 AUG 12:11 2019

VABB A1454/19 REF VABB AD 2.20 LCL AD REGULATIONS, II-TAX RESTRICTIONS, DELETE SL NR 12, 13 AND 14. AMEND AIP INDIA ACCORDINGLY. 15 AUG 00:00 2019 UNTIL PERM. CREATED: 08 AUG 12:28 2019 VABB A1499/19 1. TAX OF ACFT A380 PERMITTED ON TWY N1, N1R, N3, N4, N5, N6, W, N8, N9, N10, N11, N, M, M5, M6, M7, M8, E1, E3, E4, S1, W4, E7, E8, E9, E10, PORTION OF TWY E BTN RWY 27 AND TWY N1, PORTION OF M4 BTN TWY N1 AND TWY M, AND PORTION OF TAXILANE H BTN TWY M7 AND TWY M5. 2. UNDER FOLLOW ME SER TOWING OR TAX OF A380 PERMITTED ON TWY E5, PORTION OF TAXILANE P BTN TWY E5 AND TAXILANE H AND PORTION OF TAXILANE H BTN TAXILANE P AND TWY M7. INSERT AND AMEND VABB AD 2.20, LCL AD REGULATIONS, TAX RESTRICTIONS, PARA II AND AMEND AIP INDIA ACCORDINGLY. 15 AUG 00:00 2019 UNTIL PERM. CREATED: 13 AUG 12:18 2019 VABB A1567/15 DIRECTOR GENERAL OF CIVIL AVIATION INDIA HAS GRANTED TEMPO EXEMPTION IN RESPECT OF FLW NON-COMPLIANCE AGAINST RQMNTS SPECIFIED IN DIRECTOR GENERAL OF CIVIL AVIATION CAR-SECTION 4, SERIES B, PART IV PARA 3.1.19 RWY SLOPE: THE TRANSVERSE SLOPE ON RWY 14/32 IS NOT SYMMETRICAL ON BOTH SIDES OF CAMBERED SFC. 19 OCT 07:00 2015 UNTIL PERM. CREATED: 19 OCT 10:07 2015

VABB A1618/17 OBSTACLES FOR RWY 09/27 AND RWY 14/32 WITHIN IN CIRCLING AREA AND AT AERODROME FOR RWY 09/27 RWY/AREA OBST COORD ELEV MARKING/LGT RMK AFFECTED TYPE IN CIRCLING AREA AND BUILDING 190512.09 N 66 FT LGT NIL AT AD 0725142.05 E IN CIRCLING AREA AND BUILDING 190512.11 N 54 FT LGT NIL AT AD 0725136.44 E IN CIRCLING AREA AND BUILDING 190512.23 N 69 FT LGT NIL AT AD 0725140.38 E IN CIRCLING AREA AND BUILDING 190512.36 N 68 FT LGT NIL AT AD 0725143.41 E IN CIRCLING AREA AND BUILDING 190512.43 N 67 FT LGT NIL AT AD 0725145.30 E IN CIRCLING AREA AND BUILDING 190512.41 N 57 FT LGT NIL AT AD 0725148.63 E IN CIRCLING AREA AND BUILDING 190512.50 N 68 FT LGT NIL AT AD 0725147.00 E FOR RWY 14/32 IN CIRCLING AREA AND BUILDING 190507.30 N 88 FT LGT NIL AT AD 0725204.28 E IN CIRCLING AREA AND BUILDING 190532.39 N 51 FT LGT NIL AT AD 0725143.38 E. 14 SEP 00:01 2017 UNTIL PERM. CREATED: 11 SEP 13:59 2017

[Meester proach]

That's what NOTAMs are for! See which tawiways and runways are closed or shortened! Always interesting to read the ones for departure, destination and alternate airports! It could avoid you BIG troubles!


Yeah, try reading 50 pages of gobbledegook, in the timeframe . NoTAM system is not fit for purpose, it’s just lip service to the regs.
And of course the lawyers - the trend for US airports to notam their runway is wet, and then we get airborne reports cancelling said notam when it dries out !

[xetroV]

That's what NOTAMs are for! See which tawiways and runways are closed or shortened! Always interesting to read the ones for departure, destination and alternate airports! It could avoid you BIG troubles!
Lots of exclamation marks cannot hide the fact that today's NOTAM system is a ridiculous relic from the past and a threat to aviation safety.

https://ops.group/blog/the-problem-of-bullshit-notams/
https://fixingnotams.org/

[FBW390]

Mr Proach and xetroV: you're right, there are often 50 pages of NOTAMs, it's too much! That's why our nice FOs come early and are used to see what's important or not: Departure airport, closed rwys, twys? Dest and Altn: same...Twys closed? You will check in flight, you have between 2 and 8 hrs or more usually...5 or 10 mns will be enough, but then you know! I really don't want to go in that trouble of taxying where I shouldn't be! It's situational awareness, it's anticipation...