Military Mobilization into Washington DC?

[Airbubba]

Reports of numerous C-17s and C-130s bringing troops and equipment into Andrews right now.

[Airbubba]

Here's one report, there are others on, you guessed it, social media.

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1405x1018/spots_a62a58241337e4fe54a52e92a62d5fe141d70901.jpg

[Jhieminga]

Also: https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/33802/military-helicopters-descend-on-washington-in-bizarre-very-low-altitude-show-of-force

[beardy]

I think that Trump is a frightened man. That makes him dangerous and me nervous.

[chopper2004]

Here's one report, there are others on, you guessed it, social media.

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1405x1018/spots_a62a58241337e4fe54a52e92a62d5fe141d70901.jpg

Hmmm without making light of this situation - reminds me of the plot in xXx - The Next Level (Ice Cube/Samuel L Jackson / Willem DaFoe) and this made me laugh ...


https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/443x960/fda24437_5311_479d_bc03_43618d8ee098_fc10ff01cb9c1f6b865aea1 8e2dc1ca45a52fe4d.jpeg


ok magic question how badly can it escalate, how is it gonna end ....and how coronavirus epidemic stateside has taken a step back in the media now.. Also is it worse than the anti war demos and black right demos in 60s?

cheers

[Martin the Martian]

A president that hides in a bunker and sends the troops in against his own people. I guess that's what he meant when he pledged to make America great again.

[NutLoose]

I always thought you couldn't use the military on the streets of the US...

Nothing good will come of this.... The man is a buffoon... When asked is that your bible?, he replied it's a bible.. in rather a it's a stage prop sort of way.

I wonder how SASless see's all of this..

One doubts the chances of that copper ever getting a fair and impartial trial as well... whatever the verdict, it will only inflame the situation.

Tear gassing the people, so you can walk down the street for a photo opportunity, one thinks his chances of holding the said bible again for the swearing in ceremony has just got a lot further away.

[charliegolf]

If they deploy, it'll likely be ONLY to protect HIM. Battalion around the Whitehouse. He is that much of a small garden bird! Surprised he didn't demand 'SEAL Team 6'.

CG

[bafanguy]

I always thought you couldn't use the military on the streets of the US...

FYI:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insurrection_Act_of_1807

[Just a spotter]

plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRE9vMBBe10

Meanwhile, a man walks across a road to show he has a book.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/rubio-defends-trump-after-criticism-over-st-johns-photo-op

JAS

[cxorcist]

Why be prepared when it would be so much easier to do nothing as have so many state governors and city mayors? That way, when things go TU, you can blame the violence, destruction, and looting on your political opponents and placate the criminals so they don’t riot against you.

Great idea! Let’s go with that... because at the end of the day, maintaining political power is more important than law and order in society.

PS - George Soros is laughing his ass off at how stupid and easily manipulated the ruling elites, media, and poorly educated populace are.

[madhon]

The Washington DC National Guard is the only one where there is not elected governor to command it, so it reports directly to the president. The D.C. National Guard is the only U.S. military force empowered to carry out federal functions in a state or, in this case, a district. Those functions range from limited actions during non-emergency situations to full scale law enforcement of martial law when local law enforcement officials can no longer maintain civil control. The National Guard may be called into federal service in response to a call by the president or congress

[Airbubba]

That's the new urban rooftop version of the Blackhawk with the modified tail in this New York Times report.

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/443x960/fda24437_5311_479d_bc03_43618d8ee098_fc10ff01cb9c1f6b865aea1 8e2dc1ca45a52fe4d_jpeg_34467e0264bcb48d7d1e03703bc2c59aab19b 249.jpg

[NutLoose]

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/33802/military-helicopters-descend-on-washington-in-bizarre-very-low-altitude-show-of-force

The link above shows the Blackhawk... they are missing a trick here, they need to be blasting Des O'Connor music at them..

[MPN11]

A passing thought re the helicopter pilots ... danger close to any idiots with a hand-held laser, of which I suspect there could be many.

We have friends on the other side of the Potomac, and are on chat daily. All quiet over there.

[Airbubba]

The Blackhawk over DC doing foot selfies in P56A last night was apparently a UH60M with members of the elite FBI Hostage Rescue Team. An FBI C560 Citation N557PG was orbiting overhead.

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1376x907/https_s3_us_west_2_amazonaws_com_the_drive_cms_content_stagi ng_message_editor_252f1591068114890_uh_60_259b607f83e38d49d4 26eda8980cecab774c0592.jpg

[Vzlet]

Winds aloft cause an interesting speed trace for the Citation:
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N557PG/history/20200602/0311Z/KHEF/KHEF

(No comment on the symbolic flightpath!)

[Sloppy Link]

Hmmm without making light of this situation - reminds me of the plot in xXx - The Next Level (Ice Cube/Samuel L Jackson / Willem DaFoe) and this made me laugh ...


https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/443x960/fda24437_5311_479d_bc03_43618d8ee098_fc10ff01cb9c1f6b865aea1 8e2dc1ca45a52fe4d.jpeg


ok magic question how badly can it escalate, how is it gonna end ....and how coronavirus epidemic stateside has taken a step back in the media now.. Also is it worse than the anti war demos and black right demos in 60s?

cheers
Hmmm.....didn’t know Blackhawk had skids.

[Airbubba]

Hmmm.....didn’t know Blackhawk had skids.

I've generally tried to avoid helicopters but in the Blackhawk picture above is one landing gear extended and the other one retracted?

[bunta130]

I've generally tried to avoid helicopters but in the Blackhawk picture above is one landing gear extended and the other one retracted?

No.....both mainwheels are down...

[Lonewolf_50]

Also is it worse than the anti war demos and black right demos in 60s?
It's similar but different, not sure if it's worse yet but it ain't good.
That occurred in my life time.
Yeah, I am getting a bit of deja vu.
Chopper, how in the heck did you think that's a Blackhawk? Or did you? Maybe that's just the journo being an ignoramous.
The NYT picture has a small skid aircraft, maybe a version of JetRanger?
This is a Blackhawk (https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1376x907/https_s3_us_west_2_amazonaws_com_the_drive_cms_content_stagi ng_message_editor_252f1591068114890_uh_60_259b607f83e38d49d4 26eda8980cecab774c0592.jpg).

[Senior Pilot]

It's similar but different, not sure if it's worse yet but it ain't good.
That occurred in my life time.
Yeah, I am getting a bit of deja vu.
Chopper, how in the heck did you think that's a Blackhawk? Or did you? Maybe that's just the journo being an ignoramous.
The NYT picture has a small skid aircraft, maybe a version of JetRanger?
This is a Blackhawk (https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1376x907/https_s3_us_west_2_amazonaws_com_the_drive_cms_content_stagi ng_message_editor_252f1591068114890_uh_60_259b607f83e38d49d4 26eda8980cecab774c0592.jpg).

It’s a Lakota; Mil version of the BK117 family.

Just a tad bigger than a JetRanger :p

[Airbubba]

No.....both mainwheels are down...

Thanks. Probably just the perspective but the left gear appears to me to be showing a lot more extension.

We'll get some more pictures tonight. ;)

It’s a Lakota; Mil version of the BK117 family.

From photos and ADS-B data the helo in the video was apparently 08-72054, a UH-72A Lakota assigned to the D.C. Army National Guard. Most sources seem to indicate that it is a military version of an EC145, not a BK117 but I don't claim to know. It has a red cross on the sides and a small one under the nose. I presume this designates it as a non-combatant in some situations.

From Jetphotos this picture by Mike Egan:

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1000x769/68029_1466466928_9813bc140bc144fbccb94840c3f81cc3b5c859a9.jp g

[mattyj]

This will not harm trumps election hopes..this will totally activate them for better or worse.

[Ascend Charlie]

This will not harm trumps election hopes..this will totally activate them for better or worse.

Contradiction in terms - if it will not harm=for better
WILL harm = for worse.

His posing with bibles and in front of religious statues is nauseating.

[chopper2004]

It's similar but different, not sure if it's worse yet but it ain't good.
That occurred in my life time.
Yeah, I am getting a bit of deja vu.
Chopper, how in the heck did you think that's a Blackhawk? Or did you? Maybe that's just the journo being an ignoramous.
The NYT picture has a small skid aircraft, maybe a version of JetRanger?
This is a Blackhawk (https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1376x907/https_s3_us_west_2_amazonaws_com_the_drive_cms_content_stagi ng_message_editor_252f1591068114890_uh_60_259b607f83e38d49d4 26eda8980cecab774c0592.jpg).

Of course. I know lol and was taking the p*****. Did you not see my opening line “this made me laugh” above the stupid article title??

😂

My photo of both Dustoff (think Maryland ARNG on alert with 1st HS Uh-1N) atAir & Space Expo 2019 at Andrews year ago..


https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1333/d294c5a8_ad8e_4e9a_80b6_0a877b7e3e0a_f4cb165ebd1e7c914e92c7d fcf1d7b178baf1859.jpeg

So now there are riots appearing worldwide such as London, Manchester, Paris. Also lots of my mates (including military folk ) changing their fb profile photo to a black square for solidarity.

cheers

[Airbubba]

My photo of both Dustoff (think Maryland ARNG on alert with 1st HS Uh-1N) atAir & Space Expo 2019 at Andrews year ago..


And that 1st Helo Squadron is not well known to the public but its mission is of interest in times like these:

The 1st Helicopter Squadron's primary mission is to be prepared to evacuate high-ranking personnel from the Capital area in the event of a national emergency.

The troops are still coming in via C-17s to ADW. One of the two spook C-32Bs (B-752s) from McGuire made two trips to Andrews to bring in operators.

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1080x1430/ezjaqb5wsaic8j1_cd413b0cc58da9ee8b925abf8b6a70b9023aad4b.jpg

[ExRAFRadar]

Some of them look like they would collapse after jogging 100 metres.

[Bob Viking]

That has the look of a movie to it don’t you think? Some sort of dystopian, end of civilization type deal.

BV

[tartare]

I agree completely.
Looks like some schmaltzy Hollywood movie.
Would be hilarious if the context wasn't so tragic...

[pr00ne]

chopper 2004,

"so now there are riots appearing worldwide such as London, Manchester, Paris..."

No riots in London or Manchester, can't speak for Paris but pretty sure that there are none there either. There ARE a few peaceful demonstrations of solidarity and support, I was actually on one in London, and it was peaceful, harmonious and there was friendly banter with the Police present, who were largely supportive and sympathetic.

[Airbubba]

An update from the Pentagon.

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1052x297/ezjwcxjxqae4zyn_4e1e117f5ce8886a5f9d6255ac3dd9a9a88e2669.png

[Hydromet]

Keep that last photo in mind for the CapCom.

[The Nr Fairy]

That's a disturbing picture for quite a few reasons. One of which is the complete anonymity of the individuals in uniform. Police officers - certainly in the UK and I suspect elsewhere - need to wear identification prominently so that in the case of allegations against officers in any situation they can be identified.

Take away the ability to identify people given those sorts of powers and they'll behave differently, that's almost a given.

[Martin the Martian]

I've generally tried to avoid helicopters but in the Blackhawk picture above is one landing gear extended and the other one retracted?

No, I think the guys sitting in the starboard door have just got shorter legs.

[chopper2004]

That has the look of a movie to it don’t you think? Some sort of dystopian, end of civilization type deal.

BV

Olympus Has Fallen springs to mind or likes of John Carpenter films Escape from New York .

or if anyone read the late Clive Cussler Dirk Pitt thriller adventure Deep Six with POTUS kidnapped and brainwashed under mind control, of a ruthless Korean shipping magnate and KGB (both of which double cross each other) , ends up with Whitehouse turned into fortress with V-22 type landing on the front lawn and depositing Marines etc .

cheers

[Just This Once...]

Capitol deployment plans overseen by Margaret Atwood?

[Bergerie1]

Is there a knowledgeable US citizen here who can idenitify (1) exactly what military unit those soldiers are from and (2) why they are standing on the steps of what I assume is The Lincoln Memorial?

[Lonewolf_50]

That picture looks like they are standing on the steps of the Lincoln Memorial. I think they have to wear those masks due to Covid related stuff. (A guess there, not a sure assessment).

[NutLoose]

I agree completely.
Looks like some schmaltzy Hollywood movie.
Would be hilarious if the context wasn't so tragic...


Hmmm... lets hope it does not turn out to be the film The Siege

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Siege

[chopper2004]

And that 1st Helo Squadron is not well known to the public but its mission is of interest in times like these:



The troops are still coming in via C-17s to ADW. One of the two spook C-32Bs (B-752s) from McGuire made two trips to Andrews to bring in operators.

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1080x1430/ezjaqb5wsaic8j1_cd413b0cc58da9ee8b925abf8b6a70b9023aad4b.jpg

I saw white unmarked C-32A appear at the ‘Hall size years ago, think later this airframe had stars and bar painted on and that’s it. I am led to believe this carries contingency response folks in case all hell breaks loose like with their embassies under siege etc.

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1047/3a9519cc_2c35_4184_a31a_37d6bd0ef43b_a510736feefe93eda3b70cd 06ec831e2fda836ac.jpeg
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1948x1311/7195b7f2_7ffe_42fc_978d_1a52fb783ca4_092a593adf963f9b2166b55 654aed1f87d4e8377.jpeg

cheers

[dead_pan]

So now there are riots appearing worldwide such as London, Manchester, Paris. Also lots of my mates (including military folk ) changing their fb profile photo to a black square for solidarity.


Really? There was some pushing and shoving in Trafalgar Square, but that was about it. You're right about Paris though, but then again its kind of thing they do this time every year, regardless.

[dead_pan]

It would be interesting to know how many different law enforcement agencies are currently deployed in DC. I saw the Parks Police were out and about, a pretty tooled up bunch. Do they get a lot of trouble in the capitol's parks e.g. people walking on newly sown grass or not scooping their mutt's poop, that sort of thing?

[unmanned_droid]

Is there a knowledgeable US citizen here who can idenitify (1) exactly what military unit those soldiers are from and (2) why they are standing on the steps of what I assume is The Lincoln Memorial?

I would think that those that know are a bit busy to be posting on here.

I imagine the ones with the military police tags are military police as stated by the update on deployments posted in this thread.

The rest are all probably under the direction of the military police or are also military police.

There were some more interesting folk who, when asked, told this person that they were only permitted to say they were with the Department of Justice. The suspicion is that they could be PMC (twitter.com/dfriedman33/status/1267936203522932738).

[havoc]

Lincoln Memorial, which was hit with graffiti 2 nights ago.

Secretary of Defense spoke up today against using the military contrary to the Presidents vision

[beardy]

I would think that those that know are a bit busy to be posting on here.

I imagine the ones with the military police tags are military police as stated by the update on deployments posted in this thread.

The rest are all probably under the direction of the military police or are also military police.

There were some more interesting folk who, when asked, told this person that they were only permitted to say they were with the Department of Justice. The suspicion is that they could be PMC (twitter.com/dfriedman33/status/1267936203522932738).
For info 'PMC' = Private Military Contractor

apparently footwear (grungy trainers) gave them away

[Airbubba]

I saw white unmarked C-32A appear at the ‘Hall size years ago, think later this airframe had stars and bar painted on and that’s it. I am led to believe this carries contingency response folks in case all hell breaks loose like with their embassies under siege etc.

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1047/3a9519cc_2c35_4184_a31a_37d6bd0ef43b_a510736feefe93eda3b70cd 06ec831e2fda836ac.jpeg
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1948x1311/7195b7f2_7ffe_42fc_978d_1a52fb783ca4_092a593adf963f9b2166b55 654aed1f87d4e8377.jpeg

cheers

That's a C-32B, not a C-32A. The A's have Pratt motors, the B's have Rolls is one clue.

But these spooks are happy to be confused with the VIP planes when something goes wrong.

They had a nosewheel collapse doing a landing at an outlying military field near Charleston, South Carolina, possibly lights out with night vision goggles:

Military plane of the type that carries VP, others under tight security at base in North after 'landing incident'

By LEE HARTER, T&D Editor
May 2, 2003

NORTH — A U.S. Air Force jet of the type that carries the vice president and first lady was involved in a "landing incident" at North Auxiliary Field early Thursday.

Two of 10 persons aboard were shaken up but suffered no serious injuries, according to a U.S. Air Force spokeswoman dispatched from Charleston to North as part of a team investigating what observers in North say appears to have been some kind of emergency landing.

"It's obvious the nose was down and it probably crash landed,” T&D North Correspondent Billy Robinson said. The plane, which is off the runway, is visible from outside the base.

"It's definitely an unusual sight — the sight of a solid white plane,” Robinson said of the craft that bears U.S. Air Force markings rather than the "United States of America" logo that would grace the same model used to fly government leaders.

Speaking by telephone from the North base, Sgt. Melanie Streeter, spokeswoman for 437th Airlift Wing, said the C-32A [sic ;)] was flown by the 486th Flight Test Squadron from Eglin Air Force Base in Florida.

The C-32A is the military version of Boeing's 757-200. It is the aircraft that makes up the fleet that carries the vice president, the first lady, cabinet secretaries and other high-ranking U.S. officials. The two-engine jet measures just over 155 feet in length with a 124-foot wingspan. It can carry 45 passengers and a crew of 16.

The plane that came down in North had a 10-member crew, Streeter said. After the 3 a.m. "landing incident,” two people were examined for injuries. Neither was seriously hurt.

Streeter would not say whether the plane was scheduled to land at North or what caused the incident. She declined even to call it an emergency landing.

"Command policy is that no information be released until a full investigation is complete,” she said.

Speaking later from Charleston, Maj. Linda Pepin said the plane was on a "test mission.” The C-32A from Elgin is "used for systems flight testing,” she said.

Along with the inquiry by an interim safety board is extra security at the North field, Streeter said.

That security was visible to Robinson and others in North on Thursday. Armed guards are manning the base's main gate off Slab Landing Road. A big truck blocks the Highway 178 entrance to the facility, which is used by the Charleston Air Force Base as a testing and training site.

"There's definitely something going on,” Robinson said. "The guards at the gate and the truck in obvious position to stop something from crossing and getting inside” are not customary.

"You've really got to look to see the plane out there,” Robinson said. But from the highway, armed personnel riding around the base are visible.

"The people in North get so used to hearing the planes at night, we don't think anything about it. And then you hear unusual noises up to explosions and machine gun fire, you don't think much about it because it's fairly common to have something going on. In the back of your mind, you think, 'Is there something going on out there?”'

This time there is.



And, these folks are not the same as the two former 'Comco' 'Torture Taxi' civilian 757s that are operated out of Mobile Downtown airport by L3. They visit garden spots like Rabat and U-Tapao after making stops at places like Oakland to pick up operators.

[Lonewolf_50]

havoc: what's your source for that?
Secretary of Defense spoke up today against using the military contrary to the Presidents vision
Sounds like someone is doing their due diligence.

[Airbubba]

There were some more interesting folk who, when asked, told this person that they were only permitted to say they were with the Department of Justice.

This is a standard disclaimer for FBI employees, Federal Marshals and other DOJ folks.

[Lonewolf_50]

here is a link in re Sec Def Esper's comments.
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/06/03/mark-esper-military-deployment-protests-298314
Nice Job Sec Def.

[chopper2004]

That's a C-32B, not a C-32A. The A's have Pratt motors, the B's have Rolls is one clue.

But these spooks are happy to be confused with the VIP planes when something goes wrong.

They had a nosewheel collapse doing a landing at an outlying military field near Charleston, South Carolina, possibly lights out with night vision goggles:



And, these folks are not the same as the two former 'Comco' 'Torture Taxi' civilian 757s that are operated out of Mobile Downtown airport by L3. They visit garden spots like Rabat and U-Tapao after making stops at places like Oakland to pick up operators.

Thanks, slipped typo anyhow is there something the authorities know that the populace do not . Or it’s precautionary measure perhaps ??

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/33817/nuke-sniffing-helicopter-flies-around-washington-amid-protests

2 decades ago they flew BO105 primarily based out of DoE little ops at Nellis and laughingly all the 105 belonged to EG & G according to 2003 Rotor Roster.

cheers

[Airbubba]

Media reports that the active duty military units deployed to DC with return to their bases soon.

Fire up those C-17s!

[unmanned_droid]

This is a standard disclaimer for FBI employees, Federal Marshals and other DOJ folks.

Thanks for the clarification.

[Airbubba]

Thanks for the clarification.

I have a close relative who worked for a famous three-letter DOJ law enforcement agency. He wasn't a Special Agent but due to his professional standing was given a very impressive looking 'cred' (credential) with a picture, a seal and a lot of fancy writing, just like in the movies.

I asked if that was what he used to get access to secure spaces like SCIF's. He said no, the chip in his ID card knows all that stuff. He said the only time he was supposed to use the fancy cred was to get a discount at a hotel when travelling on government business. If you've ever worked for the government, you'll know he wasn't joking. :)

[unmanned_droid]

I have a close relative who worked for a famous three-letter DOJ law enforcement agency. He wasn't a Special Agent but due to his professional standing was given a very impressive looking 'cred' (credential) with a picture, a seal and a lot of fancy writing, just like in the movies.

I asked if that was what he used to get access to secure spaces like SCIF's. He said no, the chip in his ID card knows all that stuff. He said the only time he was supposed to use the fancy cred was to get a discount at a hotel when travelling on government business. If you've ever worked for the government, you'll know he wasn't joking. :)

Haha, government and big corporate accountants think the same way!

[Airbubba]

From photos and ADS-B data the helo in the video was apparently 08-72054, a UH-72A Lakota assigned to the D.C. Army National Guard.


This article seems to be derived from a Washington Post piece.

DC National Guard asks for investigation into use of helicopter to target protestersBy Zack Budryk (https://thehill.com/author/zack-budryk) - 06/02/20 11:02 PM EDT The District of Columbia National Guard has asked for an investigation into the use of a helicopter in the city to disperse crowds protesting the killing of George Floyd, officials told The Hill.

"Maj. Gen. William J. Walker, District of Columbia National Guard Commanding General, has directed an investigation into a June 1 low-flying maneuver conducted by one of our rotary aviation assets," Air Force Lt. Col. Brooke Davis, spokeswoman for the D.C. National Guard, told The Hill in a statement.

"Our highest priority is the safety of our Citizen Soldiers and Airmen who support civil authorities as they perform their duties,” the spokeswoman continued. “This is our home, and we are dedicated to the safety and security of our fellow citizens of the District and their right to safely and peacefully protest."

As police enforced a 7 p.m. curfew on Monday night, multiple helicopters (https://thehill.com/homenews/news/500622-military-helicopters-used-to-disperse-dc-protestors) were deployed to disperse protesters. Footage on social media showed an unarmed Lakota medevac craft with Red Cross markings using its rotor wash — or the downward rush of air from rotors — to disperse crowds.“This was a foolish move,” Geoffrey Corn, a former Army lawyer and professor at the South Texas College of Law in Houston, told (https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2020/06/02/helicopter-protest-dc/) The Washington Post. “The symbolic significance of the Red Cross is pervasive: It denotes a ‘noncombatant’ function of the armed forces.”

Kyleanne Hunter, a former Marine Corps pilot, agreed that the use of the helicopter was an escalation and that it flew far too low to serve any useful surveillance purpose.

“You add more military equipment, you get more military tactics,” she told the Post. “It’s to provoke and incite rather to protect and serve.”

[Vortex Hoop]

Really? There was some pushing and shoving in Trafalgar Square, but that was about it. You're right about Paris though, but then again its kind of thing they do this time every year, regardless.
They started rioting outside No10 today and assaulted the police. Break out the rubber bullets I say.

[homonculus]

The BBC 10 o'clock news had an excellent item (for a change) on the US situation, pointing out the history of racial tensions in the US - totally different from any other country - but also the issue of 18,000 separate police departments where some police have as little as 12 weeks training. Many are so small that oversight must be imperfect. Now we have so many different police departments and agencies and military units trying to sort out an issue caused by this cacophany. The US is my second home but sadly nothing changes.......

[Lonewolf_50]

The BBC 10 o'clock news had an excellent item (for a change) on the US situation, pointing out the history of racial tensions in the US - totally different from any other country - but also the issue of 18,000 separate police departments where some police have as little as 12 weeks training. Many are so small that oversight must be imperfect. Yeah, our idea of democracy is based on it working from the bottom up, not from the top down.
That is on purpose.
The overall intent is that we, as a matter of systems design, want to avoid too much power being in too few hands, unlike Europe and the autocratic habits they developed over about 20 centuries.

Our founders didn't arrive at their ideas by accident. They took a lot of ideas that arose from the Enlightenment and tried to put a few of them into practice. It's called the Great American Experiment in Self Government for a good reason. And yes, we are still in a petri dish. Seen from the Chinese or European perspective, a couple of centuries or so isn't a pie that is for sure fully baked. Might take a bit longer in the oven, as it were. Still baking, maybe waiting for the crust to turn that lovely golden brown.

With that design principle come a variety of inefficiencies.
That also is on purpose.
This means, as you observe form that article, it's a bit of a mess in detail but the overall framework remains intact. We survived a bloody civil war. And some progress was made. We lived through the upheaval of the 60's and 70's, learned, made a bit of progress.
Here we are again, doing something similar but different. And it may be painful, but in the longer term I am optimistic that a bit more progress can be made.
Again, that is on purpose.
Our Constitution is the political version of the model of continuous improvement that Deming claims to have uncovered in the 1950's. (I like his work, but he was a few centuries late to be original).
Being political, which means that the messy human element is involved, it's somewhat less than a perfect lab experiment.

That is by design.

The reasoning behind that design is an attempt - and for that matter an experiment - in creating a system that prevents too much power being in too few hands. The underlying reason for that viewpoint is about 2000 years of European history before our nation's founding, from which our founders learned.

The experiment remains an ongoing process. That too is by designer intent.
So far so good, but it can for sure get messy at times.

I have hopes for the experiment to proceed into the future for a while. If it ever ends, and when it ever ends, the rest of you will wish it hadn't.

[Airbubba]

There were some more interesting folk who, when asked, told this person that they were only permitted to say they were with the Department of Justice. The suspicion is that they could be PMC.

This is a standard disclaimer for FBI employees, Federal Marshals and other DOJ folks.

An article about those anonymous DOJ folks in DC these days.

Who Are They? Unmarked Security Forces in DC Spark Fear

Mistaken for mercenaries, armed personnel from federal agencies refuse to identify themselves to street protestors and media.

By Katie Bo Williams Senior National Security Correspondent

The presence of unmarked federal law enforcement officers, dressed in paramilitary uniforms and wearing no identifying insignia (https://twitter.com/KatieBoWill/status/1268243353017233410?s=20), quickly spread among protesters marching through Washington, D.C.’s streets on Tuesday and Wednesday, causing concerned protesters and officials to ask: Who are they?

In some locations, security personnel refused to identify themselves to journalists and protesters who asked which agency sent them, answering only that they worked for the federal government. In other places, they identified themselves as working for the Department of Justice. Some carried rifles (https://twitter.com/wesleysmorgan/status/1267985681177096193?s=20), or were equipped (https://twitter.com/GarrettHaake/status/1268233764070731778?s=20) with body armor, riot shields, and pepper spray canisters.

Two such clad security members in Washington on Tuesday night identified themselves to Defense One as part of a specialized emergency response force run by the Bureau of Prisons — part of the Justice Department — to help maintain security at correctional facilities. They and others (https://twitter.com/wesleysmorgan/status/1268271758374830088?s=20)are part of what’s known as the bureau’s Special Operations Response Teams, or SORTs. NPR reported (https://www.npr.org/2020/06/01/867059312/attorney-general-steps-up-federal-law-enforcement-response-to-protests) on Monday that Attorney General Bill Barr had ordered BOP to send its specialized riot response teams to assist with the local D.C. law enforcement with the civil unrest that has engulfed downtown Washington this week.

On Wednesday, protesters, former national security officials, and legal analysts raised alarms about the refusal (https://twitter.com/MikevWUSA/status/1268286448018522117?s=20) of these units to identify their specific agency, and the legal authority under which they are operating. Some critics compared the units to “little green men” — a reference to the unmarked Russian soldiers who appeared in Crimea, Ukraine, prior to its 2014 annexation by the Russian Federation and were compared to the classic plastic toy soldiers. A few of the personnel in Washington on Tuesday wore patches identifying them as BOP or SORTs, but many did not.

“There is no generic DOJ police force, obviously. No badges, no identifying info, refusal to say who they represent — it’s like Russia’s little green men have taken over the nation’s capital,” tweeted (https://twitter.com/matthewamiller/status/1267960573985202179?s=20) Matt Miller, a former DOJ spokesman under President Barack Obama.

Asked in a brief phone call why the units had been ordered not to identify themselves in more detail, DOJ spokesman Kerri Kupec said, “I don’t know anything about that.” In a separate conversation, another Justice Department official who spoke on the condition of anonymity dismissed the concerns as the purview of conspiracy theorists, expressing frustration that officials who were “clearly” part of the enforcement efforts would be mistaken (https://twitter.com/wesleysmorgan/status/1267985681177096193?s=20) for mercenaries. That official argued that the BOP officers were appropriately identifying themselves as being with DOJ, suggesting that no further detail was required.

Legal analysts have raised questions about what statute authorizes BOP’s use in civil law enforcement efforts. Those nitty-gritty rules dictate what kind of authority the units have — like the power to arrest citizens, for example. That, in turn, dictates how civilians can seek redress for any abuses of power.

“BOP, like other federal, state, and local law enforcement officers may be deputized under the authority granted the US Marshals Service to enforce federal criminal statutes and protect federal property and personnel,” DOJ spokesman Wyn Hornbuckle said in an email.

That legal rationale — ”if this is really what happened,” cautioned national security law professor Bobby Chesney — means that the BOP officers have the same broad law enforcement authorities that any deputy U.S. marshal would, including the power to carry fire arms and make an arrest without a warrant for any offense.

But the officers’ refusal to identify themselves is still “bonkers,” Chesney said (https://twitter.com/KatieBoWill/status/1268305315252011009?s=20). Some security analysts and protesters argued that the BOP’s reticence was an intimidation tactic.

“The authority they [are] operating under dictates what they are allowed to lawfully do. If DOJ is being intentionally vague in order to intimidate citizens, that is abusive,” tweeted (https://twitter.com/Susan_Hennessey/status/1268245054243684359?s=20) former NSA counsel Susan Hennessey.

Other analysts expressed concerns that tactical teams trained to deal with prison riots by inmates may not know how to cope with civilian unrest on city streets.

BOP officers “are trained for specific missions in specific conditions quite different from working with U.S. civilians—convicted of no crime—exercising their protected 1st A rights,” tweeted (https://twitter.com/Dianabolsinger/status/1268254941262442497?s=20) Diana Bolsinger, a senior fellow at the Strauss Center for International Security and Law.

It was far from clear that BOP personnel were the only unmarked paramilitary forces on the streets, not was it clear how many BOP officers have been dispatched to Washington. A hodgepodge of federal agencies (https://www.govexec.com/management/2020/06/see-what-federal-response-dc-protests-looks/165855/) have loaned their forces to support local law enforcement efforts as D.C.’s protests entered their sixth day on Wednesday, and the BOP units sometimes appeared to be intermingled with officers from these other agencies. Officers from the DEA, FBI, DHS and other federal agencies could be seen around the city, as well as thousands of National Guardsmen.

The BOP did not respond to requests for information on the units by the time this story was published. Democratic lawmakers and some former military and security officials also have expressed concern.

“Unacceptable for uniformed federal officers policing constitutionally-protected assemblies to refuse to identify themselves to people who pay their salaries,” tweeted Rep. Don Beyer, D, who represents northern Virginia’s 8th congressional district, directly across the Potomac River from Washington. “Denying accountability to the public they serve ensures abuses.” Arlington County, in Beyer’s district, on Tuesday pulled their police forces (https://wtop.com/arlington/2020/06/virginia-county-pulls-officers-from-dc-after-trump-photo-op/) out of Washington, saying it did not want to participate in Trump’s escalation and commingling of security forces against the protests.

“DC police are required by law to wear badges that must be visible ‘even if wearing riot gear,’” Beyer noted. “But because Trump called in federal agencies to crack down on peaceful protests, people in the nation’s capital once again are treated as second class citizens.”


Katie Bo Williams is the senior national security correspondent for Defense One, where she writes about defense, counterterror, NATO, nukes, and more. She previously covered intelligence and cybersecurity for The Hill, including in-depth reporting on the Russia investigations and military ... Full bio (https://www.defenseone.com/voices/katie-bo-williams/14006/?oref=d-article-author)

[beardy]

They started rioting outside No10 today and assaulted the police. Break out the rubber bullets I say.
A scuffle one policeman punched a traffic cone thrown and 2 arrests. Hardly a riot!

[Vortex Hoop]

A scuffle one policeman punched a traffic cone thrown and 2 arrests. Hardly a riot!
the footage I have seen this morning looks more serious than that now...hordes of masked rioters steaming down Whitehall assaulting many police and even an Aussie TV news crew. Scum need to be dealt with properly. Any excuse for a riot like after Mark Duggan in 2011.

[homonculus]

Thanks Lonewolf 50. Having worked in Texas for several years, I too shared your optimism....and hope. I recognise that the US was designed to have checks and balances but dont accept it was as carefully planned as you suggest. The Constitution (in fact the second Constitution) was an accident from a meeting designed to raise a model Army, and John Adams argued it should be replaced by each generation. The relative lack of change and development, combined with decades of isolationism in the 20th century and fear of the word 'socialism' has left many Americans behind.

Turning to the police, I am not European, but police forces in England are based on counties so not national. There is a national training standard and each force is large enough to have senior management which can oversee standards and identify employees who need support and in extreme cases be let go, backed up by a National Inspectorate reporting to government. This is no different from any business. In the US some police departments are as small as a family business, isolated and struggling. We dont have multiple forces often fighting each other on the same turf, although there has been some slippage.

[safetypee]

Lonewolf 50, #59, homonculus,

'In 1804 Thomas Jefferson expressed the hope that the USA had embarked on an experiment that "we trust will end un establishing the fact, that man may be governed by reason and truth."

The announcement by the Oxford Dictionaries 212 years later that "post-truth" was its Word of the Year seemed to confirm that the experiment had failed.'

Julian Baggini 'A Short History of Truth'
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/36264436-a-short-history-of-truth

The book is an short, easy read, a balancing history of truth and democracy, together with concerning views of current issues and for the future.

Interestingly, the concluding 'solutions' have many similarities with interventions considered to improve human performance in aviation, but not IMHO, any more convincing of the likelihood of success.

Also note from Albert Einstein : “Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.”
Good advice for aviation as well as governments.

[G-ARZG]

Anyone else have a concern that the use of Red Cross marked helo's like this undermines the credibility of that symbol? Must be close to a 'shouldn't be doing this, fellas'?

[ozbiggles]

I think there is a whole lot of that line of questioning going on.

[NutLoose]

Anyone else have a concern that the use of Red Cross marked helo's like this undermines the credibility of that symbol? Must be close to a 'shouldn't be doing this, fellas'?

Paint them green, that's what the RAF did when it came up.

[Ripton]

Lonewolf 50, #59, homonculus,

'In 1804 Thomas Jefferson expressed the hope that the USA had embarked on an experiment that "we trust will end un establishing the fact, that man may be governed by reason and truth."

Shortly after Jefferson's expressed his hopes, the principles of policing by consent were set out in the ‘General Instructions’ that were issued to every new British police officer from 1829. Whilst they may not be held as guiding principles by every police officer or force, none of them are any less valid now than they were then.

To prevent crime and disorder, as an alternative to their repression by military force and severity of legal punishment.

To recognise always that the power of the police to fulfil their functions and duties is dependent on public approval of their existence, actions and behaviour and on their ability to secure and maintain public respect.

To recognise always that to secure and maintain the respect and approval of the public means also the securing of the willing co-operation of the public in the task of securing observance of laws.

To recognise always that the extent to which the co-operation of the public can be secured diminishes proportionately the necessity of the use of physical force and compulsion for achieving police objectives.

To seek and preserve public favour, not by pandering to public opinion; but by constantly demonstrating absolutely impartial service to law, in complete independence of policy, and without regard to the justice or injustice of the substance of individual laws, by ready offering of individual service and friendship to all members of the public without regard to their wealth or social standing, by ready exercise of courtesy and friendly good humour; and by ready offering of individual sacrifice in protecting and preserving life.

To use physical force only when the exercise of persuasion, advice and warning is found to be insufficient to obtain public co-operation to an extent necessary to secure observance of law or to restore order, and to use only the minimum degree of physical force which is necessary on any particular occasion for achieving a police objective.

To maintain at all times a relationship with the public that gives reality to the historic tradition that the police are the public and that the public are the police, the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full time attention to duties which are incumbent on every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence.

To recognise always the need for strict adherence to police-executive functions, and to refrain from even seeming to usurp the powers of the judiciary of avenging individuals or the State, and of authoritatively judging guilt and punishing the guilty.

To recognise always that the test of police efficiency is the absence of crime and disorder, and not the visible evidence of police action in dealing with them.

[340drvr]

plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

JAS

or, as David Byrne put it, "....same as it ever was, same as it ever was, same as it ever was..."

[Lonewolf_50]

The Constitution (in fact the second Constitution) was an accident Not quite. The Articles of Confederation were failing to achieve their purpose; calling them a "Constitution" is I think a reach. The Constitution that was approved in 1789 took a lot of time and effort to get sorted out. The Constitutional Convention was no accident. The entire dialogue that went on around it, and in particular the desired amount of federal power in the model that they were trying to build, remains some of the best reference on what they were trying to achieve and what they all argued about. (Federalist Papers cover a lot of it, but not all of it).
It wasn't until they tried to put it into practice that they discovered where the edges might be found. Jay, Rutledge, Ellsworth, and Marshall were working without a net as Chief Justices while they ran into the old "no plan remains intact after first contact" problem form the Judicial branch perspective. Marshall probalby deserves the most credit for establishing the pattern of how the Judiciary branch fits into the model in practice.

Washington's response to the Whiskey Rebellion was quite controversial at the time. He faced significant criticism for overreaching with federal power. (But he did it anyway).

[Neufunk]

On the comment about the absence of name tags and any other identification.

It's perfectly normal in such scenarios and plenty of countries do the same. It prevents that the name and other info becomes mainstream, should a person commit a controversial act. Prevents retaliation / grudges, etc... Some countries give them identification numbers but still no name tag.

The people in the picture seem to be USAF personnel.

[gear lever]

An interesting piece written by Chris "Ox" Harmer for Drive. Cut and pasted as unable to attach link.
Here is the link to the article. (https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/33820/veteran-military-helicopter-pilot-on-why-hovering-over-protestors-was-dangerous-and-stupid)(Mod)
Early in my career flying H-60 SeaHawks in the U.S. Navy, our carrier air wing was operating down in the Caribbean. I planned and led a complex training mission involving about a dozen aircraft, including four helicopters, eight strike fighters, as well as some Navy Seals. We expended a lot of live ordnance, accomplished all our training requirements, and in general had a great time. Afterward, as we were celebrating at a bar just outside of Naval Air Station Roosevelt Roads on Puerto Rico, one of the senior officers in the air wing took me aside and said: "There is a fine line between being aggressive and being stupid. Right now you are nowhere near that line. You are operating all the way on the stupid side of that line, and you need to un-**** yourself before you get somebody killed."

I am reminded of this incident at random times and it usually brings a smile to my face, because he was right. I was being aggressive, but stupidly so, and putting everyone at risk. I changed my ways and became a much safer, more effective, more responsible Naval Aviator.On Monday, I saw something that reminded me of the fact that there is a fine line between aggression and stupidity, and the memory did not bring a smile to my face. Just the opposite.

I watched military helicopters being used to conduct crowd control and dispersal operations on U.S. citizens engaged in protests in our nation's capital. I don't know who thought this was a good idea, but it's not courageous, it's not smart, it's not effective, it's just stupid and counterproductive on every level. It's also both unjustified and unnecessary. Shortly after the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, I was trained how to use a helicopter as a "show of force" at low altitude to disperse crowds. Thankfully, I was never tasked with actually doing this mission while deployed. I know plenty of helicopter pilots who were tasked with these types of missions—used to disperse crowds so that insurgents couldn't hide in them—in Iraq and Afghanistan, and they all hated it. Even if it is necessary, using a helicopter to sandblast civilians is not what anyone thought they were signing up for.

I never thought I would see U.S. military helicopters being used in this way on American soil. There is a legitimate use for helicopters in civilian law enforcement. Virtually every major local police department has a flight division operating helicopters and light fixed-wing aircraft. Washington, D.C.'s Metropolitan Police Department has an Air Support Unit. I don't think anyone has a problem with local law enforcement using aircraft to conduct routine operations, but there is something fundamentally wrong with using military helicopters to disperse American citizens engaged in the protected exercise of free speech.

I live just outside of Washington, D.C., so I am accustomed to hearing every major event, such as the current wave of protests, analyzed through a political lens, i.e., who does this hurt, who does it help, how does it change the political or electoral dynamic. That's just the way D.C. operates and this issue of an American military helicopter being used to disperse American citizens in the nation's capital is being analyzed in a similar fashion.

With that said, over the last 24 hours I have talked to a dozen or so former or current Navy helicopter pilots about this incident and each of them pointed out that regardless of the political messaging or posturing, the real issue in their minds was just how dangerous it was, both for the protestors on the ground and for the flight crew. While hovering over a crowd at low altitude, the downwash from the rotor circulates debris and dust at high speed. While some of the protestors were wearing rudimentary Personal Protective Equipment (PPE), many were not. Those citizens were at risk of being seriously injured as a result.

As far as the helicopter goes, kicking up that much dust and debris is almost certain to result in some Foreign Object Debris (FOD) ingestion into the engines. The worst-case scenario—an engine or control system failure while in a hover—would leave no room to maneuver to a safe landing spot and not enough altitude to enter an autorotation. It's far safer to be in forward flight at altitude than in a permanent hover. Both the American citizens who were subjected to the debris blast and the helicopter crew were placed in danger for no apparent reason.

The most obvious objection to this incident is it violates long-standing precedence and principle that the American military should only be used for domestic security purposes when absolutely necessary, in highly atypical situations. While the recent deployment of U.S. Navy hospital ships in support of the COVID-19 response brought temporary attention to the U.S. military's role in responding to domestic emergencies, the fact is the U.S. military has a baseline capability and responsibility to support civilian authorities during natural disasters and other contingencies. These missions are generally referred to as Defense Support to Civil Authorities (DSCA) operations and each military service trains to do this.

Far less common is the use of the U.S. military in case of a total breakdown of law and order. In the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, the security situation deteriorated so quickly that local law enforcement was overwhelmed, and the U.S. military, primarily elements of the National Guard, temporarily assumed some law enforcement and civil order functions. The public supported that action because it was necessary and temporary. I doubt the American public will support the use of military helicopters to suppress and disperse American citizens.

As this piece was being written, the District of Columbia National Guard announced that its Commanding General, Major General William J. Walker, was directing an investigation into the actions of the helicopter crew. The message was short, but emphasized that the National Guard is operating in support of civil authorities and that the priority was the safety of both the Guardsmen and citizens. With this message, it makes it much easier for critics of the action on June 1 to conclude that it was an unauthorized event—a mistake or an unfortunate choice by a small number of people—rather than a deliberate institutional decision. Let's hope this is the case and demand that it never happens again. There are a time and a place for U.S. military helicopters to engage in crowd dispersal and show of force. It should never happen on American soil.
----------------
Editor's update: Secretary of Defense Esper has since commented that he ordered the investigation into these incidents.
-----------------
Chris Harmer is a retired Naval Aviator. He flew SH-60F and HH-60H helicopters, accumulating approximately 3,500 total flight hours. During his career, he was designated as both an Instructor Pilot and a Seahawk Weapons Instructor pilot, and is a graduate of the Navy's Mountain Flying School. He has flown training and operational missions in the airspace of over 50 different countries. He is a regularly scheduled military and national security analyst on multiple cable television networks including Fox, CNN, MSNBC, and BBC.

[ozbiggles]

I think it would only be fair that the people/protestors demanding police/soldiers display their IDs also did the same so that they can also be easily identifiable in case they were to commit a crime.
To keep it aviation related too, I don’t think flying military helicopters at low level at night over a downtown city over the top of a mass of people gets a pass mark in the risk/reward category.There doesn’t seem to be much thought put into the optics of what is happening in Washington D.C. The pictures of having troops all over the Lincoln Memorial have stuck with me. I’m not close enough to say whether it is justifiable or not but I would have thought if they had to be there like the helicopters be careful how it looks. The shot that stays with me is like something from an end of the world movie.

[towrope]

First, let me be clear that peaceful protest is a constitutional guarantee but vandalism and looting are not. Many, many people in the US saw this heavy handed response or something like it coming since his inauguration. That the military has gone against the people was dreaded but not unexpected under this administration. This is just a taste for when Trump loses the election badly, declares it rigged and refuses to recognize the results. He won’t be willing to leave office at the end of his term, you just watch. Fortunately our Constitution has an order of succession in the case of a faulty or no election and he’d be out Jan 20th regardless. My money is on him and his family skipping to Saudi early January when he realizes he will face consequences for many things he has done.

I was living in Seattle in 1999 when the WTO protests& riots happened. Each morning transit was running into downtown and “everything’s fine” until about noon when all hell broke loose. The police went mad and had a heyday. Nobody was safe from their antics. One afternoon, with all transit canceled I was having to walk out of downtown with other office clones (shirt, tie, Dockers), far from the protests/riot and was teargassed by police with badges and names covered over. The next afternoon I was walking home again, this time helping an 80 year-old lady when we were batoned in the back and teargassed by police with covered names and badges. You could see they were absolutely enjoying it. Since then I have never, ever trusted the police and I never will. .

[ozbiggles]

But you will be the first to call them when you are in trouble....

[towrope]

Not likely. If I'm away and my house alarm is tripped and they come I know the police won't rob me, and I will appreciate their checking for a burglar and politely get them the hell off my property. If a burglar tries to or enters my house while I'm home he/she will find themselves looking at the business end of a shotgun (or two if Mrs Towrope is home). Depending on that outcome it'll be me calling to report a break-in or a neighbor reporting a gunshot. I don't scare easily.

[KARNAK66]

Reports of numerous C-17s and C-130s bringing troops and equipment into Andrews right now.
i thought this was supposed to be the pilots website not a stage for not spouting political distorted views and speaking with authority on something they know NOTHING about.

[NutLoose]

Love this quote


Trump began his term promising to build a wall to protect America from the world.
He ends it building a wall to protect himself from Americans.
pic.twitter.com/mzvfIBVOSg (https://t.co/mzvfIBVOSg)

— Nick Confessore (@nickconfessore) June 4, 2020 (https://twitter.com/nickconfessore/status/1268560617566240768?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw)

[muppetofthenorth]

i thought this was supposed to be the pilots website not a stage for not spouting political distorted views and speaking with authority on something they know NOTHING about.
It's a rumour network. And this is the military aviation rumour sub-forum.

Sounds like an ideal place to post a rumour about military aviation to me?

[pr00ne]

the footage I have seen this morning looks more serious than that now...hordes of masked rioters steaming down Whitehall assaulting many police and even an Aussie TV news crew. Scum need to be dealt with properly. Any excuse for a riot like after Mark Duggan in 2011.

Vortex Hoop,

Are you sure you are not getting muddled up wtih US footage? I was at the demonstration at the weekend which was peaceful and the chat and banter with the Police was friendly, and they were generally supportive. I was not on the demonstration on Wed but did just happen to be walking up Whitehall when a number of demonstrators who were gathered outside the gates to Downing Street were running down Whitehall toward Parliament Square. There were not thousands of them, they were NOT rioting, and at no time did I get any sense that they would. More than a few gathered at the Cenotaph for staged photos but they didn't desecrate it, and a lot of the protestors called them out and told them to leave it alone, which eventually they did.

[Vortex Hoop]

Vortex Hoop,

Are you sure you are not getting muddled up wtih US footage? I was at the demonstration at the weekend which was peaceful and the chat and banter with the Police was friendly, and they were generally supportive. I was not on the demonstration on Wed but did just happen to be walking up Whitehall when a number of demonstrators who were gathered outside the gates to Downing Street were running down Whitehall toward Parliament Square. There were not thousands of them, they were NOT rioting, and at no time did I get any sense that they would. More than a few gathered at the Cenotaph for staged photos but they didn't desecrate it, and a lot of the protestors called them out and told them to leave it alone, which eventually they did.

I am very sure I am not confused. The two incidents below were in Central London on Wednesday: Police attacked in Whitehall and Oz news crew attacked possibly near Admiralty Arch. Further incidents appearing as I type. You may have been on a different demo to the one I saw online. The police seem to be too afraid to act to contain and arrest these rioters, for fear of selective news editing by the mob.

Michael Heaver (https://twitter.com/michael_heaver?s=11) ⁦‪@Michael_Heaver‬⁩ (https://twitter.com/michael_heaver?s=11) https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/1228259994056916993/HyskgJdw_normal.jpg (https://twitter.com/michael_heaver?s=11) https://ea.twimg.com/email/self_serve/media/spacer.png
https://ea.twimg.com/email/self_serve/media/logo_twitter-1497383721365.png https://ea.twimg.com/self_serve/media/spacer_464x1-1582829598167.png Police officers abused and one is then physically attacked and knocked over in London today.

pic.twitter.com/dAUfrWqrWb (https://t.co/dAUfrWqrWb)
03/06/2020, 21:41


The Today Show (https://twitter.com/thetodayshow?s=11) ⁦‪@TheTodayShow‬⁩ (https://twitter.com/thetodayshow?s=11) https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/1207454970485694465/F8p6oqVZ_normal.jpg (https://twitter.com/thetodayshow?s=11) https://ea.twimg.com/email/self_serve/media/spacer.png
https://ea.twimg.com/email/self_serve/media/logo_twitter-1497383721365.png https://ea.twimg.com/self_serve/media/spacer_464x1-1582829598167.png #BREAKING (https://twitter.com/search?q=%23BREAKING&src=hash): Nine News Europe correspondent Ben Avery has been forced to abandon his live coverage as protestors clash with police in London. #9Today (https://twitter.com/search?q=%239Today&src=hash)pic.twitter.com/xE9Qhf8CME (https://t.co/xE9Qhf8CME)
03/06/2020, 20:59



l

[Chiefttp]

Me thinks many of you watch way too much CNN. The U.S. Left is behind most of the violence, their goal is chaos and blaming Trump. There were similar riots during Obama’s administration and nobody blamed him, but these riots are caused by Trump.? The left wing/ progressives despise Trump because he highlights their weakness every day..

[Lonewolf_50]

That the military has gone against the people was dreaded but not unexpected under this administration Please explain what you mean by that. I will say to you that the people in the military have not 'gone against the people' - and really, what do you mean by that?
The people whose stores and homes are destroyed by looters are also, the People. Do you care about them? They matter. They are caught up in a tsunami of fear and violence also, through no fault of their own.
I doubt you'll find anyone serving who objects to the protests against abuse of power (the George Floyd case among others) and you'll find very few, or none, who believe that a riot solves anything.
When the military gets called in to do that Support For Civil Authority thing, it is already a crap situation to start with.
That the various police departments need to work on and improve their approach to Protect and Serve seems to be clear.

For Chiefttp: that probably fits better into a discussion on Jet Blast.
For VortexHoop: that post you linked to is a bit disturbing. In the middle there you offered a thought that is chilling (to me).
The police seem to be too afraid to act to contain and arrest these rioters, for fear of selective news editing by the mob. They can't do their job because of fear of looking bad. I completely get what's going on, with the two seconds of video tells the whole story approach by so much of the world's media. What's the remedy to that?

[Airbubba]

Who are the folks in riot gear trying to take back the streets in DC?

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1160x773/dc_fed_police_0a821fe66a90acc04a4ab73bcf6fb0a81dc3faed.png
Getty Images Kasos Katopodis

The motley assortment of police currently occupying Washington, D.C., is a window into the vast, complicated, obscure world of federal law enforcement.

Then there are the officers who can be spotted across Northern Virginia in white marked patrol vehicles labeled only as "United States Police" the purposefully vague public name given to what is formally known as the CIA’s Security Protective Services (https://www.cia.gov/careers/search-jobs/support-professional/security-protective-officer.html), who provide security to the CIA and the Office of Director of National Intelligence. They carry weapons, but have limited law enforcement authority. (As one agent once told me, only half-joking, “We can’t arrest you, but we can kill you.”)


A good TL;DR article from Garrett Graff:

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/06/05/protests-washington-dc-federal-agents-law-enforcement-302551

[Lonewolf_50]

A good TL;DR article from Garrett Graff (https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/06/05/protests-washington-dc-federal-agents-law-enforcement-302551): I was against the creation of DHS when it happened, and I think my objections weren't strong enough. (Though on the bright side, Coast Guard seeing a bit better treatment at budget time once they moved out from under DoT).
Great article, great link. Thanks. I wonder how many of these police agencies have air assets? Three of the pilots who served under (Navy, Marines) me back in the 00's ended up going to DEA, and I think all three were headed to flying assignments.

[NutLoose]

Lone, is it true that the ends of toy guns have to be orange so police can identify them as thus, in that image he is holding a baton round / cs gas weapon in similar Colours, does that not make the idea behind “colour coding” kids toys pointless?

[unmanned_droid]

Lone, is it true that the ends of toy guns have to be orange so police can identify them as thus, in that image he is holding a baton round / cs gas weapon in similar Colours, does that not make the idea behind “colour coding” kids toys pointless?

Toy guns need to be identifiable as such, this is usually by having some level of fluro coloured plastic. Either the muzzle or the whole toy. Doesn't help that training uses imitation firearms that are all in red or blue or other colours.

[unmanned_droid]

Please explain what you mean by that. I will say to you that the people in the military have not 'gone against the people' - and really, what do you mean by that?
The people whose stores and homes are destroyed by looters are also, the People. Do you care about them? They matter. They are caught up in a tsunami of fear and violence also, through no fault of their own.
I doubt you'll find anyone serving who objects to the protests against abuse of power (the George Floyd case among others) and you'll find very few, or none, who believe that a riot solves anything.
When the military gets called in to do that Support For Civil Authority thing, it is already a crap situation to start with.
That the various police departments need to work on and improve their approach to Protect and Serve seems to be clear.

For Chiefttp: that probably fits better into a discussion on Jet Blast.
For VortexHoop: that post you linked to is a bit disturbing. In the middle there you offered a thought that is chilling (to me).
They can't do their job because of fear of looking bad. I completely get what's going on, with the two seconds of video tells the whole story approach by so much of the world's media. What's the remedy to that?

As the son and brother of police officers (UK) it's my experience that the actual officers are never going to win. They won't be supported by the seniors and they are villified every day. There are a minority of officers who show very poor conduct, as in the case of GF, and also in the Aubery case, although ex officer. These people should be made examples of as they are in positions of authority and must operate to a higher level than the public to set the example. In no way does this mean all officers are out to brutalise the public.

I see that a whole 57 man unit has quit public order duties in NYC because of what's happenning to 2 of their number. I would suggest more units do the same. In the UK, public order duty is voluntary (well 'voluntary') still, as far as I'm aware. Whilst the police operate by public consent, it is a voluntary occupation. One way to stop Police brutality is to remove the Police - it seems the police no longer have the public consent in some areas.

Conversely, I'd quite like to see everyone do 2 years in the Police, or Fire or Ambulance services, so they can see what the job is really about. Maybe pay that time served back with UBI or further education opportunities.

[Check Airman]

Me thinks many of you watch way too much CNN. The U.S. Left is behind most of the violence, their goal is chaos and blaming Trump. There were similar riots during Obama’s administration and nobody blamed him, but these riots are caused by Trump.? The left wing/ progressives despise Trump because he highlights their weakness every day..

If not trump, then who?

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/537160060682924032

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/537160060682924032

[Asturias56]

"Our country is totally fractured and, with our weak leadership in Washington, you can expect Ferguson type riots and looting in other places"

Well he said it not me ;)​​​​​​​

[racedo]

Yeah, our idea of democracy is based on it working from the bottom up, not from the top down.
That is on purpose.
The overall intent is that we, as a matter of systems design, want to avoid too much power being in too few hands, unlike Europe and the autocratic habits they developed over about 20 centuries.

Our founders didn't arrive at their ideas by accident. They took a lot of ideas that arose from the Enlightenment and tried to put a few of them into practice. It's called the Great American Experiment in Self Government for a good reason. And yes, we are still in a petri dish. Seen from the Chinese or European perspective, a couple of centuries or so isn't a pie that is for sure fully baked. Might take a bit longer in the oven, as it were. Still baking, maybe waiting for the crust to turn that lovely golden brown.

With that design principle come a variety of inefficiencies.
That also is on purpose.
This means, as you observe form that article, it's a bit of a mess in detail but the overall framework remains intact. We survived a bloody civil war. And some progress was made. We lived through the upheaval of the 60's and 70's, learned, made a bit of progress.
Here we are again, doing something similar but different. And it may be painful, but in the longer term I am optimistic that a bit more progress can be made.
Again, that is on purpose.
Our Constitution is the political version of the model of continuous improvement that Deming claims to have uncovered in the 1950's. (I like his work, but he was a few centuries late to be original).
Being political, which means that the messy human element is involved, it's somewhat less than a perfect lab experiment.

That is by design.

The reasoning behind that design is an attempt - and for that matter an experiment - in creating a system that prevents too much power being in too few hands. The underlying reason for that viewpoint is about 2000 years of European history before our nation's founding, from which our founders learned.

The experiment remains an ongoing process. That too is by designer intent.
So far so good, but it can for sure get messy at times.

I have hopes for the experiment to proceed into the future for a while. If it ever ends, and when it ever ends, the rest of you will wish it hadn't.

A reasonable synopsis but the Founding Fathers maybe gave Human Nature or just Humans too much credit for being able to act as reasonable people and not seeking personal fiefdoms and abusing power or maybe they did it to limit it.

The deference to someone in Uniform from a police department is not something I have seen in other countries, even when the police dept is totally corrupt / incompetent.

[Chiefttp]

He’s talking about the Democrats and the left in general. You can’t blame Trump for what a bad Minneapolis cop did to a suspect. Did anyone Blame Obama for Ferguson? Give us all a break. If a person wants to limit his exposure to bad cops, don’t commit crimes. By being a law abiding citizen, your exposure to the police is minimized drastically. BTW the City of Minneapolis Is overwhelmingly run by Democrats, so why are they blaming Trump? TDS or CNN syndrome.

[racedo]

Me thinks many of you watch way too much CNN. The U.S. Left is behind most of the violence, their goal is chaos and blaming Trump. There were similar riots during Obama’s administration and nobody blamed him, but these riots are caused by Trump.? The left wing/ progressives despise Trump because he highlights their weakness every day..

Police force responsible for killing George Floyd are under control of Minneapolis City Council which is under control of 1 party. Maybe if they had done their job then the officer concerned with his history would still be wearing a Uniform but as a Mall cop only.

[Herod]

If a person wants to limit his exposure to bad cops, don’t commit crimes.

AFAIK, he was "accused/suspected" of trying to pass a forged $20 bill. No crime committed at that stage.

[Check Airman]

He’s talking about the Democrats and the left in general. You can’t blame Trump for what a bad Minneapolis cop did to a suspect. Did anyone Blame Obama for Ferguson? Give us all a break. If a person wants to limit his exposure to bad cops, don’t commit crimes. By being a law abiding citizen, your exposure to the police is minimized drastically. BTW the City of Minneapolis Is overwhelmingly run by Democrats, so why are they blaming Trump? TDS or CNN syndrome.

Yes, actually. One person did.

If, as you say, “he’s talking about the democrats and the left in general”, he specifically noted weak leadership in Washington, so it’s pretty clear he wasn’t talking about the local government in Ferguson.

And the city of MSP isn’t blaming trump. Former Trump blamed future Trump. (as an aside, this is so crazy, I’m not even sure what tense to use in that last sentence)

[Tartiflette Fan]

Since the toys can be painted over to make them more realistic- as children would undoubtedly like - that is a dubious recognition factor. It's going a bit far, but the criminals could equally paint their genuine weapons with fluo colours to fool the cops.

[racedo]

AFAIK, he was "accused/suspected" of trying to pass a forged $20 bill. No crime committed at that stage.

A crime had been committed in the attempted passing of forged bills.

What had not yet been proven was Mr Floyd was guilty of this, he was with a number of people suspected but that doesn't make him guility. He alledgy worked at same establishment as police officer but not establised that they knew each other, my guess was they did or were aware of each other. I suspect police officer was aware more likely than civilian because once a cop, always a cop.

Cop should not have been on the force, his history alone should have got him a new career but sometimes everybody wants a nice clean polite police officer while decrying those who meet the scum head on in dishing out what the scum dish out.

[Lonewolf_50]

Lone, is it true that the ends of toy guns have to be orange so police can identify them as thus, in that image he is holding a baton round / cs gas weapon in similar Colours, does that not make the idea behind “colour coding” kids toys pointless? I do not know the current state of play on that. Over the past few decades, there are now and again reported cases of toys guns being pointed at cops and it ends in tears.

Not sure if there's a statue on that, and I'll see if ATF might have a law. (We have so many laws in this country I wonder if we aren't all criminals...)
EDIT: a quick check of ATF.gov didn't find an ATF reg on that, but who knows what laws states have? I too recall hearing something like that years ago, but I can' confirm or deny as I just don't know.

I think SASless might now from his days in LE, but he seems to have left us for the time being.

[beardy]

By being a law abiding citizen, your exposure to the police is minimized drastically.

If you're white. Makes less difference if you're not. Therein lies the rub.

[Vortex Hoop]

If you're white. Makes less difference if you're not. Therein lies the rub.
Rubbish. That’s the propaganda pushed out by the US rioters and lapped up by the UK rioters. White people are regularly shot by the police over there. It just doesn’t make the news as much.

[Check Airman]

Rubbish. That’s the propaganda pushed out by the US rioters and lapped up by the UK rioters. White people are regularly shot by the police over there. It just doesn’t make the news as much.

I wonder why the news doesn't cover it. They seem keen to cover all sorts of rubbish. Why not that?

Also, I think it's best you separate the looters and vandals (who are criminals) from the legitimate protesters (who are exercising their right to do so).

[PHDracing]

If not trump, then who?

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/537160060682924032

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/537160060682924032 I would suspect that the first level of ineffective leadership has been the Mayor of Washington. Washington is several things..... and one of them is a city with a duly elected Mayor who has sat on her butt and watched her city being ruined, while hoping the people who are preventing it being worse, would get out of town (so the rest of the place can burn?) She has been worse than ineffective.

[OMG Itz Fulovstarz]

Lone, is it true that the ends of toy guns have to be orange so police can identify them as thus, in that image he is holding a baton round / cs gas weapon in similar Colours, does that not make the idea behind “colour coding” kids toys pointless?

Forgive the intrusion from the civil side.

Yes, in the U.S. airsoft weapons and the like usually have the end of their barrel moulded or painted in orange to signify they are not the real thing, I think the marking must be 5mm or similar.

In the policing context, a weapon with an orange stock and/or fore end (or other significant portion of it) signifies a "less lethal" weapon, i.e. not firing FMJ's. Depending on the weapon, close to 30%-50% fo the weapon will be orange - significantly more than an airsoft weapon.

HTH.

[Check Airman]

If not trump, then who?

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/537160060682924032

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/537160060682924032 I would suspect that the first level of ineffective leadership has been the Mayor of Washington. Washington is several things..... and one of them is a city with a duly elected Mayor who has sat on her butt and watched her city being ruined, while hoping the people who are preventing it being worse, would get out of town (so the rest of the place can burn?) She has been worse than ineffective.

The president disagrees with you


"https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/398887965302091776" Please remove the quotes. I can't get the link to work properly.

https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/398887965302091776

[OmegaV6]

IMHO this is an interesting read, and puts another perspective on some of the views expressed here ...

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1268898468766134279.html

[Lonewolf_50]

Rubbish. That’s the propaganda pushed out by the US rioters and lapped up by the UK rioters. White people are regularly shot by the police over there. It just doesn’t make the news as much.
FWIW: numbers are posted without context, since one does not know what situation led to a given use of firearms.
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/384x400/1591132778_eaa4b0949999cc74b9d26cf4e924558b935a1b06_jpeg_749 a32e202ce0fc78e8fed8e19fa4635e32f8605.jpg
Those numbers tell a very small portion of the story; one would need to dig down into each case and each event to see what led up to it.

[Airbubba]

President Trump has announced that he's given the order to withdraw the National Guard from Washington, DC.

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1066x218/trump_guard_order_2d9adb3953a47471802486239d290905fab8c707.j pg

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

Of course white people get shot by police too, but there are many more of them (75% of population vs 13%) They don't get shot in that ratio though, and it seems to be getting worse.

[Lonewolf_50]

Of course white people get shot by police too, but there are many more of them (75% of population vs 13%) They don't get shot in that ratio though, and it seems to be getting worse. Cops don't shoot at people based on a quota system. You do understand that, right? The underlying social and contextual causes are not something simply explained in a sentence or two. People have written entire books and PhD dissertasions on this. This article alludes to a few of the imbedded problems (https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1268898468766134279.html)that are all "slices of cheese" lining up before an event occurs before the use of deadly force. (For my money, that essay has a few own goals as the author digresses into international issues, but he raises a few points worth thinking about).

The numbers I provided in that little graph are a snap shot of the a result of a complex series of events in a given interaction that leads to an officer, or multiple officers, using deadly force. If all you look at is those number, you will leap to an invalid conclusion, since all they tabulate is an effect of a multiple cause situation.

Sort of like aircraft accidents. If you don't dig into the deep cause factors, the numbers don't tell you much.
"Pilot error hang him, hang her, and press on."
And that's the attitude I see expressed in re this topic far too often.
As aviators, we ought to know better.

The cases that probably bother people the most is the unarmed person who ends up hit with a cop's bullet and dies. I'll say that those bother me the most. My question is generally: "Was there no other way to take control of this situation with the tools available?"

If there's an armed person and the cops are called in - yeah, people dial 911 and expect the cops to show up and do something about it. The whole point of having the police come is to get the situation under control.

One other thing to remember is this: the rise in crime rate in the 1960's and 1970's was measurable and a national disgrace, a national crisis. A very public debate and a political reaction was ongoing on that topic from the time I was in Junior High School.
In the mid 80's and the 90's a very loud persistent law and order lobby eventually solidified. That didn't happen in a vacuum. It happened as a result of rising crime and rising violent crime in our country.

As an aside, check out this analysis of the 1992 Rodney King riots by a national guard commander. (https://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/conf_proceedings/CF148/CF148.appd.pdf) One of the points that really struck home as I reviewed that was the difference between 1992 and the Watts riots in the 1960s. Gangs in the 60s were not anywhere nears as heavily armed as in the 90s.

It is no coincndence that this hard nosed law and order lobby arose in parallel with "the war on drugs" that has been covered elsewhere. Also related to this is the increase in the incarceration rate over the past 30 years. The "three strikes and you are out" and "minimum / mandatory sentencing guidelines" was to me, at the time, overreach of the Legislative Branch into Judicial Branch functions. (I didn't like it then and I don't like it now). But that attitude, which passed into law in the 90's, is directly related to the advocacy of more aggressive policing as a standard. I'd say it's been a sustained drive since the mid 1990's which 9-11 only fed in a hundred ways, not all of which are healthy.

If you look at Airbubba's link from a page or so back "who are those guys?" you see a case of creeping federal bloat that began with the 9-11 attack and it hasn't stopped since then. That's three straight adminstrations who have resorted to increased federal involvement in state matters, and the one previous, Clinton Administration, was the actual initiator of this. They called it OOTW then and here's the argument that was presented timd and again: if we are spending all of this money on the military, then why can't we have them do ... {X}. It is now codified as DSCA.
People who worry about federal over reach have slowly realized that we've been boiling a frog on this since about 1991.

But hey, the crime rate is now less than it was then. Mission Accomplished, right?
What people are asking now is this: "Is how we got here healthy and sustainable?"

What other people are asking, getting back to aviation, is:
"Do we even need pilots at all?" And some folks answer with this kind of tripe: With pilot error being to prominent, getting rid of them is the better idea."
I know very well why we went to armed drones for certain missions in the military.
I also know why replacing pilots with robots in commercial aircraft, and troop transports, is horrible misapplication of reasoning, and is equivalent to the sloppy reasoning that let to your arriving at your post.
Need to peel back the layers of the onion one by one; there's a lot going on in there.

[chopper2004]

Friend of mine wrote this article about RC-26 from WV and NM ANG overflying the Capitol and Vegas

https://www.airforcemag.com/why-ang-rc-26s-were-spotted-over-d-c-vegas-during-civil-unrest/


https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1024x684/295523e8_1e71_4c79_b5de_75ccf20b7380_b6aade1f3584425d3a073fe ffd4a2f2b9b29b97f.jpeg

cheers

[Chiefttp]

When 6% of the population commits 44% of the murders, and most of them are amongst themselves there is a problem. If your A law abiding Citizen, your chances of interacting with police are slim to none. While This incident was a travesty, Mr Floyd had been arrested 5 times previously for assault and robbery in Texas, he was high on fentanyl During the incident, and had some previous run ins with the offending officer prior to their encounter in which he died. The Left wing media, and anti-Trump factions are pushing this narrative to sully Trump’s administration. Look at the facts, not emotions. A quick google search will furnish one with the stats.

[Senior Pilot]

Enough of the political diatribes; take them to the US Politics in JetBlast, thanks.

[NutLoose]

Thanks guys for the clarification on the weapon colourisation.. it seems a moot point, but why signal to the bad guys that the weapon you are using is less lethal.

[NutLoose]

Blimey

https://taskandpurpose.com/news/marine-veteran-protest-utah-capitol

A Marine vet stood in silent protest outside the Utah Capitol so long that his shoes melted

[NutLoose]

https://taskandpurpose.com/news/army-grounds-helicopter-crew-protests

he crew of an Army National Guard medical evacuation helicopter that hovered extremely low over protesters in Washington, D.C (https://taskandpurpose.com/news/investigation-national-guard-helicopter-protests). on Monday has been grounded pending an investigation, Army Secretary Ryan McCarthy told reporters on Friday.

“That [investigation] should be coming to a close shortly,” McCarthy said. “I’m going to get an interim update later today.”

The Army immediately grounded the crew as soon as the investigation was launched on Monday, he said.

“Once you initiate a 15-6 into an aircrew – done – they’re grounded,” McCarthy said.