Helicopter door falls off Air Corps helicopter Dublin

[kpd]

No one hurt - Falls into school grounds as reported by Irish independent

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/investigation-underway-after-door-falls-off-air-corps-helicopter-and-lands-in-grounds-of-dublin-school-39224885.html

[funfinn2000]

AGAIN,!!

We will never know the true cause and recommendations since it’s a military aircraft and they don’t share reports, but wait, isn’t it doing a Civil Hems role?

[Hedski]

Oh you went there didn’t you. Don’t mention that bit out loud whatever you do. Lack of compliance and legality, lack of crew. Now lack of door!!! Whatever next?

[Red5ive]

Killarney too
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/air-corps-helicopter-door-falls-from-sky-into-clondalkin-school-grounds-1.4259640

Similar, happened in Salthill to an RAF Merlin
https://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0628/90618-galway

[Declan275]

AGAIN,!!

We will never know the true cause and recommendations since it’s a military aircraft and they don’t share reports, but wait, isn’t it doing a Civil Hems role?

Actually any incidents or accidents serious enough to warrant it are now investigated by AAIU along with ACFSS. I’d imagine this will fall into that category. The culture towards reporting and flight safety in general came on leaps and bounds in my time there, I’d have no expectation that anything would be swept under the carpet.

[500 Fan]

AGAIN,!!

but wait, isn’t it doing a Civil Hems role?

If lives are being saved by this service, surely that is a good thing. Other countries use military helicopters too in the HEMS role, apparently.

https://www.itv.com/news/meridian/2020-04-28/coronavirus-air-ambulance-services-across-south-adapt/

[Declan275]

I suppose the main point is, there wouldn’t have been a service if the Air Corps hadn’t started it - no one wanted to pay for one!

The initial year of EAS was to assess whether or not the country was in need of a dedicated primary and secondary HEMS, as opposed to the existing inter hospital role.

[Davey Emcee]

AGAIN,!!

We will never know the true cause and recommendations since it’s a military aircraft and they don’t share reports, but wait, isn’t it doing a Civil Hems role?Accident: Pilatus Aircraft Ltd, PC-9(M), 265, Crumlin East, Cornamona, Connemara, Co. Galway,12 October 2009: Report No 2011-016 (http://www.aaiu.ie/node/299)The Air Accident Investigation Unit (AAIU) wishes to advise that the Final Report into the Irish Air Corps Pilatus PC-9(M) accident at Crumlin East, Cornamona, Connemara, Co. ...

[funfinn2000]

They wouldnt share the report for the door loss in Killarney, please find me that report.

[Davey Emcee]

Probably still investigating it ! or like the door, it fell off a desk into a bin.

[funfinn2000]

it was 2009, The report was finished they just wouldn't share with public, a few pilots asked for this report and we were told no. Hence the reason for my post.

[funfinn2000]

If lives are being saved by this service, surely that is a good thing. Other countries use military helicopters too in the HEMS role, apparently.

https://www.itv.com/news/meridian/2020-04-28/coronavirus-air-ambulance-services-across-south-adapt/

Military Vs. Civil
Are they regulated by the IAA?
do they follow EU-OPS?
Do they fly CAT A?
Hums?
HFDM?

[Declan275]

Military Vs. Civil
Are they regulated by the IAA?
do they follow EU-OPS?
Do they fly CAT A?
Hums?
HFDM?

They are regulated by the MAA which is part of the Air Corps but I believe ( subject to someone who knows better coming along) that MAA will be part of DFHQ down the line.

The Part B for HEMS was written to be as close as possible to Part HEMS, but that may have changed.

Each hospital pad in use allows for a PC1 approach, usually the steep, confined area approach from the 139 RFM. As per civilian HEMS, landing sites at scene are not required to guarantee that, most of the ones I saw did.

[funfinn2000]

They are regulated by the MAA which is part of the Air Corps but I believe ( subject to someone who knows better coming along) that MAA will be part of DFHQ down the line.

The Part B for HEMS was written to be as close as possible to Part HEMS, but that may have changed.

Each hospital pad in use allows for a PC1 approach, usually the steep, confined area approach from the 139 RFM. As per civilian HEMS, landing sites at scene are not required to guarantee that, most of the ones I saw did.

Thanks for that,

[Declan275]

Thanks for that,

No problem👍

[dangermouse]

in that case the jettisonable emergency plug door fell out, in this case it looks like the whole sliding door

DM

[Just a spotter]

AGAIN,!!

We will never know the true cause and recommendations since it’s a military aircraft and they don’t share reports, but wait, isn’t it doing a Civil Hems role?

Yeup, again.

I suspect a discussion, sans biscuits and tea will be held in Baldonnel along the lines of

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3m5qxZm_JqM

JAS

[BigMike]

Ahh the late great John Clarke, legend...

[Hedski]

They are regulated by the MAA which is part of the Air Corps but I believe ( subject to someone who knows better coming along) that MAA will be part of DFHQ down the line.

The Part B for HEMS was written to be as close as possible to Part HEMS, but that may have changed.

Each hospital pad in use allows for a PC1 approach, usually the steep, confined area approach from the 139 RFM. As per civilian HEMS, landing sites at scene are not required to guarantee that, most of the ones I saw did.

If MTOW is above 5700kg then PartHEMS requires PC1 at scene also.

[funfinn2000]

We know the AW139 Cabin doors cant be removed for flight, but the Cockpit doors can be and then the performance is limited to CAT B.

The Air Corps perform all take-offs and landings with the door open and the crew-man keeping a lookout

my Questions is,

Would the Cabin door(s) open will this affect the Cat A PC1

[Extra55]

HEMS has to be under a civil AOC unless in an emergency like and earthquake or huracinae. If the door had hit main rotor and 4 killed and 3 on the ground , then the real situation would come out. doors falling off is very serious , the luck will run out .. Its not a free service the HSE pay between 2 to 3 million a year

[funfinn2000]

HEMS has to be under a civil AOC unless in an emergency like and earthquake or huracinae. If the door had hit main rotor and 4 killed and 3 on the ground , then the real situation would come out. doors falling off is very serious , the luck will run out .. Its not a free service the HSE pay between 2 to 3 million a year

interesting numbers, do you mind telling me how did you learn of the cost of this service? There's a charity operation struggling to get funding for a Hems service in ireland.

[Declan275]

I think the figure for the Air Corps is closer to €1m. At the start anyway, this figure came from existing funds as opposed to an extra budget. Either way, it’s a rounding error for the HSE instead of a big chunk o cash from the Air Corps budget and pretty good value for a AW139 based service.

The larger number might also include money paid to IRCG and ICRR when they fly jobs over and above their SLAs ie when Athlone is unavailable. It might also include the money paid to the FW contract in Dublin airport for international transfers. Subject to confirmation by a HSE accountant!

The charity based service is back on line now, thankfully, but a charity model in an AO centred on West Cork was always going to have issues based purely on the population density there to draw funds from. There’s at least one HIQUA report that sites a GASU style model as their preferred option, so they’re obviously happy enough with what they’re getting.

I do agree, that by whatever mechanism the service is provided, state funded is the way to go.

[funfinn2000]

Hi Declan, When you look at the Northern Ireland service the NHs gave them an initial cash injection of 5 million pounds to get started. it's good to see the Charity in Cork back up and running but they need some governent funds.

I belive that the EAS service should be tendered out to Civil, As you know there are short of crew and they could be re-deployed to other tasks.

The Gasu heli appears to be a heavy machine, I've seen a lot of Air Support units in USA that are capable of multi roles,

Anyways- sorry to go off subject.

[Declan275]

I think if it is ever tendered out, it should take a real long look at the historical breakdown of flights and pick an aircraft/basing solution after that. The Air Corps might still be seen as cheap to provide the same level of service.

By GASU model, I meant the funding system - aircraft and rear crew provided by Gardaí, pilots and other aviation expertise provided by the Air Corps. The machines themselves are not excessively heavy for the role, it’s just the mission kit is all in the pod underneath.

Personally, I’d like to see the Air Corps keep a base in a bigger HEMS picture, even with the extra pressure it puts on the crew situation in Bal. I think it keeps other tenders honest!

[Hedski]

No other EU OPS (binding law) country has a military HEMS operation. The closest is the German Bundespolizei who still operate with civilian licences, Part145, oversight, EASA ATO and now even a full EASA AOC as they realised it was a requirement legally. And they are the paramilitary police of the state. In France the Gendarmerie and Securité Civile EC145’s will not carry a casualty from a HEMS scene to hospital except when life is at immediate risk as they are a paramilitary rescue asset, a civilian HEMS airframe is always dispatched in such a scenario unless unavailable due to other tasking.
When a contract is paid for and money changes hands then a tender process is legally required under EU law as it forms a commercial transaction. There is also an insurance question. If a civilian ambulance paramedic is on board as a crew member then who insures them in the event of an incident, same for casualties carried etc. Is this an Irish solution to an Irish problem? The lack of oversight, safety culture and experience showed when the service originally began with an EC135 which then was almost written off within days of the service starting in 2012. Similar issues were highlighted in the accident report for the PC9 crash. This is why full accountability via an EASA AOC/ATO etc is mandated by law yet somehow Ireland chooses not to follow this.

[funfinn2000]

I agree Hedski,

I heard the EC135 was a write off, but since they wouldn't be granted a new one they spent more than 5 million from their budget to repair it, If someone had have been god forbid injured by this falling door then the ministers would be flapping and questions asked.

The IAA's has are tied since if Military operation,

I'm sure the AAIU will give a completely honest and non-biased report

[Idlestop]

I think the figure for the Air Corps is closer to €1m.
Not even close.

From the 2014 EAS Final report which is now 6 years old:

Cost per Hr: €3,039
Cost for 480 hrs: €1,458,720
Annual fixed costs: €744,096

Total: €2,202,816 which excludes HSE related costs.

[Declan275]

Hi guys,

Regards EU OPS etc, the service is quite legal operating as is - simply, the IAA doesn’t have their hands tied, it’s just that they’re not the regulator of the military.

I also agree that the AAIU will provide an impartial report.

Regards experience - each pilot on the initial start up service had in the region of two thousand hours at least, including many off field landings and inter hospital air ambulance flights on multiple aircraft types. The focus was always on flight safety and there was a sense of proceeding carefully to avoid the unknown unknowns.

With regards to the initial selection of the 135, the calls were expected to come from a much smaller area. One that was suitable for a 135. As time went on and the 139 took over, the calls coming from the whole country meant a bigger aircraft was required.

As an Irish solution to an Irish problem - maybe! HEMS has been talked about for years without anything ever happening because of the cost. As has happened before in Ireland, the Air Corps launched the service. See also SAR and inter hospital transfers. I honestly don’t believe there would be an operating HEMS in Ireland today if EAS hadn’t started as it did. Remember, the first year was a trial to prove a requirement.

The safety culture and SMS in the Air Corps matured considerably during my time there and no one has need to worry about the outlook of crews flying there today.

Best regards to all, I’m not seeking to be argumentative in my replies but I’ve been fortunate to have flown a bit on EAS when I was serving and would like to see it judged on all its pros and cons.

Dec

[funfinn2000]

Hi guys,

Regards EU OPS etc, the service is quite legal operating as is - simply, the IAA doesn’t have their hands tied, it’s just that they’re not the regulator of the military.

I also agree that the AAIU will provide an impartial report.

Regards experience - each pilot on the initial start up service had in the region of two thousand hours at least, including many off field landings and inter hospital air ambulance flights on multiple aircraft types. The focus was always on flight safety and there was a sense of proceeding carefully to avoid the unknown unknowns.

With regards to the initial selection of the 135, the calls were expected to come from a much smaller area. One that was suitable for a 135. As time went on and the 139 took over, the calls coming from the whole country meant a bigger aircraft was required.

As an Irish solution to an Irish problem - maybe! HEMS has been talked about for years without anything ever happening because of the cost. As has happened before in Ireland, the Air Corps launched the service. See also SAR and inter hospital transfers. I honestly don’t believe there would be an operating HEMS in Ireland today if EAS hadn’t started as it did. Remember, the first year was a trial to prove a requirement.

The safety culture and SMS in the Air Corps matured considerably during my time there and no one has need to worry about the outlook of crews flying there today.

Best regards to all, I’m not seeking to be argumentative in my replies but I’ve been fortunate to have flown a bit on EAS when I was serving and would like to see it judged on all its pros and cons.

Dec

Thanks for sharing Dec, Purely conversational, no argument here.

[Idlestop]

Regards EU OPS etc, the service is quite legal operating as is - simply, the IAA doesn’t have their hands tied, it’s just that they’re not the regulator of the military.
No its not legal.
You are correct that the IAA do not regulate the military but they have an obligation under European law to regulate HEMS. ie the Department of Health should be stopped from using the military as a HEMS operation until such time as they comply with European law for HEMS operations.

With regards to the initial selection of the 135, the calls were expected to come from a much smaller area. One that was suitable for a 135. As time went on and the 139 took over, the calls coming from the whole country meant a bigger aircraft was required.
One 135 was for all practical purposes written off, including the EMS kit on board, with only one other in the fleet there was no option but to go to the 139.

As for the larger area of operations that only applies when you decide to ignore the 4 other AOC holding HEMS bases situated on all 4 corners of the country at that time. The fact that the HSE still don't utilise these aircraft fully and leave patients sitting needlessly around for extended periods to give preference to their own toy is a mater of national disgrace.

I'm sure the AAIU will give a completely honest and non-biased report
I doubt they will even be involved. Certainly haven't seen them mentioned in the press.

[funfinn2000]

https://www.dublinlive.ie/news/dublin-news/helicopter-door-dublin-gardai-breakingnews-18293339

[Self loading bear]

https://www.dublinlive.ie/news/dublin-news/helicopter-door-dublin-gardai-breakingnews-18293339

There is only 1 meaningful sentence in that drivel:
There's a speed above which the door should not be opened or it might be damaged and become detached.

Further if that door would have fallen softly like a sycamore seed.
You have to be honest that it is then slicing like a boemerang.

[jimf671]

It's impressive isn't it that there has been no difficulty in tracking down a former Air Corps officer who has expert knowledge of how a 139 door falls to earth.

[Helipolarbear]

[QUOTE=Self loading bear;10792196]There is only 1 meaningful sentence in that drivel:


Further if that door would have fallen softly like a sycamore seed.
You have to be honest that it is then slicing like a alluded to is a pathetic excuse to mitiga

[funfinn2000]

I hope that the LT Col is a better expert at his current posting than of an Aw139 falling door.

Perhaps we can call Mythbusters.

[Helipolarbear]

No other EU OPS (binding law) country has a military HEMS operation. The closest is the German Bundespolizei who still operate with civilian licences, Part145, oversight, EASA ATO and now even a full EASA AOC as they realised it was a requirement legally. And they are the paramilitary police of the state. In France the Gendarmerie and Securité Civile EC145’s will not carry a casualty from a HEMS scene to hospital except when life is at immediate risk as they are a paramilitary rescue asset, a civilian HEMS airframe is always dispatched in such a scenario unless unavailable due to other tasking.
When a contract is paid for and money changes hands then a tender process is legally required under EU law as it forms a commercial transaction. There is also an insurance question. If a civilian ambulance paramedic is on board as a crew member then who insures them in the event of an incident, same for casualties carried etc. Is this an Irish solution to an Irish problem? The lack of oversight, safety culture and experience showed when the service originally began with an EC135 which then was almost written off within days of the service starting in 2012. Similar issues were highlighted in the accident report for the PC9 crash. This is why full accountability via an EASA AOC/ATO etc is mandated by law yet somehow Ireland chooses not to follow this.

You are correct and well explained. Ireland appears to ignore Article 3 of the Chicago Convention in this regard.
As a matter of concern, the sycamore seed akin to the falling cabin door is an analogy attempting to mitigate the unmitagatabe - that’s technically incorrect and pathetic as a descriptor.

[500 Fan]

I'm not sure Kevin Byrne would claim to be an "expert" in doors falling from helicopters but it is something he has witnessed in the past! And it wasn't an Air Corps heli either. He was the show announcer at the 2007 Salthill Airshow and witnessed the door falling from an RAF Merlin. I saw it too and yes, it does have the appearance of a sycamore seed slowly falling to the ground and so his description is reasonably accurate as to how it appears. What the actual rate of descent is,for a jettisoned door maybe Leonardo know, but I still wouldn't like to be hit by it.

500 Fan.

[rrekn]

I hear they have now implemented a new procedure to have 3 crew members confirm if the door is locked.

To be sure, to be sure, to be sure.

[[email protected]]

rrekn - that did make me laugh out loud:ok:

[petemate]

But aren’t the IAA/AAIU and IAC basically one and the same thing?

[Northernstar]

I’m just going to leave this here.

https://www.verticalmag.com/press-releases/icarus-aero-introduces-aw139-cabin-door-handle-kit/?utm_source=vertical-daily-news-todays-news&utm_campaign=vertical-daily-news&utm_medium=email&utm_term=todays-news&utm_content=V1