From unemployed airline pilot to GA flying instructor.

[Tee Emm]

With hundreds of airline pilots already out of work and the probability of more to come, some may desire to keep flying by taking up instructing as a fall-back while the future sorts itself out.
For those ex airline pilots, most of whom are experienced, what are the first steps they must take to become CASA qualified flying instructors?

Apart from the flying hours should there be a significant difference in ground theory knowledge between a grade 3 instructor and (say) grade 2 or grade 1? For example do CASA allow credit for prior learning such as PMI, Human Factors or other allied subjects, if previously undertaken in an airline?

How many dual flying hours and approximate costs can be expected during training from airline pilot to general aviation instructor?
With a huge number of unemployed airline pilots no doubt visiting Centre Link offices to discuss their financial future, there could be a wealth of experience dumped on the market to train future pilots. Your educated answers to some of these questions could be of great help to those concerned

[Walrus1]

Shirley you jest.... I think there may be a shortage of students, not instructors. I’m also not sure that airline experience translates well into GA.

[Lasiorhinus]

You will still need to complete the entire syllabus of training to gain a Grade Three instructor rating, though it may be that your overall understanding is more in-depth than a 150-hour pilot.

[Styx75]

You'll need to sit the CASA PIRC (PMI) exam before finishing your flight instructor course. Or possess a CertIV in training and assessment.

The FIR course is subject to the syllabus of the school you choose. Generally you'll be looking at 200hours classroom and 30hours dual including a flight test with an FIR ATO. None of it's very hard, just time consuming. Different quailities of flight instructor are produced from different schools from my observations.

I'd wager most training schools won't be having the large intakes of instructors like they used to. Prior to covid my school would take just about any grade of FIR with any experience. Now we're not taking any onboard. Flight instructors won't be leaving schools as they have no RPT jobs to go to, and experienced instructors will be returning from stood down RPT jobs.

All the same, if you like aviating, it's a good rating to earn.
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[DeltaT]

Think before you leap.
I've been there and done that.
The employer will want someone with longevity. They will see you as a pilot that will move on as soon as you find a airline job. Nevermind instructors in place already before covid, and the downturn in students. Just because of your hours and experience doesn't make you a sure thing. Further, the harsh reality of competition of those co-worker instructors with low experience battling you for you flight hours; seeing you as someone that doesn't need them. Sorry to rain on the parade, but I am bringing some reality.
If you are already instructor qualified from your past then nothing to lose, but if all that qualification investment $ is ahead of you, be very careful.
Of course, it's also a good ploy to bring some income from your wallet into the training industry too...

[Bodie1]

Pre-covid, Grade 1 or 2 instructors were in demand, in particular the Grade 1 with IRTA/META. Part 61 Instructor Ratings are a different animal to the CAR5. It is now expensive to add training approvals to your Part 61 Rating. If you had a CAR5 Rating it would be a matter of an Instructor Proficiency Check with the appropriate preparation. RPL's for quals that sound similar to the requirements won't happen, it wouldn't matter if you taught Bob Hoover to fly.

If you are doing it from scratch you will come out with a bare Grade 3 which will 'entitle' you to the Ab-Initio training until you add training approvals, not cheap. Pre-covid, some organisations may spot you the cost of these approvals for a return of service, now? I doubt it. Part 61 is the covid of the GA world, a disaster. It is an incredibly difficult, at times, document to interpret along with the MOS, CASR's etc. Do you want to put yourself through this for a year or two?

If I had one of you fellas approach me for a job, I'd love to have you on board, but I know you'd be out the door faster than Wayne Carey chasing a hens night party as soon as something better came along. You're not a good prospect for a business.

[Styx75]

If you are doing it from scratch you will come out with a bare Grade 3 which will 'entitle' you to the Ab-Initio training until you add training approvals, not cheap.

Grade 3's are able to provide instruction up to the CPL.
The basic restrictions are:

Can't send first solo's
Can't perform flight reviews
Can't grant RPL navigation endorsements

Some non basic stuff like can't be a HOO, ATO etc.

The jump from G3 to G2 happens pretty quickly, around 6-8months at a reasonably busy GA school (200hrs abinitio). G3's usually do get dumped with the ab-initio which helps on the upgrade front (and the pay rise that comes with it, though do remember you get the a payrise when you get 300hours total instructing).
Most respectable training organisations will support the instructor in getting their additional training endorsements... NVFR TE, Design Feature etc as it will help the company. They would be a little more cautious about handing out META and IRTE as they are a fair bit more expensive (And the instructor becomes a lot more valuable once they have those).

Going to G1 (500hrs abinitio) usually leads to a decrease in flying as you take on more administrative roles, but generally more MEA time. You also start babysitting the G3's who are by nature, fighting off job offers to lead lockheed martins's check and training programme.

[Sunfish]

So , with respect, after years of your colleagues hanging crap on GA, you now decide to give us the benefit of your expertise? I’m not impressed. Exactly what relevance to VFR stick and rudder flying is airline experience? Can we talk about spin training in a B787 versus a Cessna 172? Stalling behaviour and recovery of an Airbus versus a Cirrus?

Exactly what relevance has airline flying got to do with aGA or recreational flying? We already know how to follow the magenta line.

I believe Airbus actually advised the reverse - airline pilots need stick and rudder skills.

‘’To put that another way, your colleagues have been talking down to us for years (Capt. Bloggs) and now you want to join us? I know there are some airline pilots with a passion for small stuff, but really!

[Styx75]

Exactly what relevance to VFR stick and rudder flying is airline experience?!

About as much as a freshly minted 200hr G3, if not more. I've always wish i had some RPT experience to pass on to the students headed that way.

And most if not all RPT pilots started in GA. He could've been spreading phosphate for a decade for all you know. Check your attitude.

[spektrum]

Sunfish, would you rather be taught by an ex-airline pilot or a 200 hour CPL with a fresh instructor rating? Because the latter is extremely prevalent.

C'mon Sunny, give us a trademark pearler for your 8000th.

[Bodie1]

Grade 3's are able to provide instruction up to the CPL.

Yes they can, but they won't be delivering CPL training. Not in any school I know of. If an airline pilot is migrating back to CPL Instruction, there's a fair bit to get back on top of.

The basic restrictions are:

Can't send first solo's
Can't perform flight reviews
Can't grant RPL navigation endorsements

With all due respect, you're calling those 'basic' restrictions?

You're talking about what they theoretically can do, I'm talking the reality of this scenario. I think that's what this fella is looking for.

The reputable schools that are forking out for the training approvals require return of service or bonds, personally I don't think these candidates will hang around for that long.

[Capn Bloggs]

So , with respect, after years of your colleagues hanging crap on GA, you now decide to give us the benefit of your expertise? I’m not impressed. Exactly what relevance to VFR stick and rudder flying is airline experience? Can we talk about spin training in a B787 versus a Cessna 172? Stalling behaviour and recovery of an Airbus versus a Cirrus?

Exactly what relevance has airline flying got to do with aGA or recreational flying? We already know how to follow the magenta line.

I believe Airbus actually advised the reverse - airline pilots need stick and rudder skills.

‘’To put that another way, your colleagues have been talking down to us for years (Capt. Bloggs) and now you want to join us? I know there are some airline pilots with a passion for small stuff, but really!
Are you serious?

[sheppey]

So , with respect, after years of your colleagues hanging crap on GA, you now decide to give us the benefit of your expertise?
Hey Sunfish - Do I detect just a teeny weeney bit of professional jealousy maybe?

[VH DSJ]

So , with respect, after years of your colleagues hanging crap on GA, you now decide to give us the benefit of your expertise? I’m not impressed. Exactly what relevance to VFR stick and rudder flying is airline experience? Can we talk about spin training in a B787 versus a Cessna 172? Stalling behaviour and recovery of an Airbus versus a Cirrus?

Exactly what relevance has airline flying got to do with aGA or recreational flying? We already know how to follow the magenta line.

I believe Airbus actually advised the reverse - airline pilots need stick and rudder skills.

‘’To put that another way, your colleagues have been talking down to us for years (Capt. Bloggs) and now you want to join us? I know there are some airline pilots with a passion for small stuff, but really!

Don't forget there are many airline pilots who previously have thousands of hours in GA, some of which are dual given hours as flights instructors.

[Mach E Avelli]

Hey Bloggsie, don’t feed the troll. Sunfish would not know what some airline pilots built or flew, and where we flew, in time out from our day jobs.

[Sunfish]

Mach, I know some airline pilots are into small stuff and I acknowledged that. I am also aware that some airline pilots are using the stand down to build, or start to build right now.

What my pos was referring to was the habit of some airline pilots of throwing their weight around - and now they want to join what they consider to be the lower ranks again?

[Mach E Avelli]

Agreed some airline jocks do come across a bit heavy. The ones that throw their weight around won’t last five minutes in a typical GA enterprise where the customer is king. But that leaves some very talented pilots who could offer a lot to GA, if only GA is big enough to accept them.

[Capt Fathom]

Out of interest Sunny, how many airline pilots have you come across in the GA environment throwing their weight around?

[Styx75]

Yes they can, but they won't be delivering CPL training.

You're talking about what they theoretically can do, I'm talking the reality of this scenario.

I'm talking about the reality of what I did as a G3, and what my school still has its G3's do right now. And that is training up to the CPL.
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[Styx75]

What my pos was referring to was the habit of some airline pilots of throwing their weight around - and now they want to join what they consider to be the lower ranks again?

No, you just need to check your attitude. At least go start your own whine thread about instructors coming back from RPT rather than hijacking this thread.

[Lookleft]

Of course airline pilots will make good instructors. Most of the F/O's I have flown with who came out of GA had been instructors so now they can go back with a lot more experience with skills such as: planning, cockpit discipline, improved SA both inside and outside, adherance to SOPs. etx. After all most of the instructing was to airline aspirants so who better to teach them. From what I understand reading these pages from posters who like to big note themselves, there is no GA so who will the airline pilots be throwing their weight around to?

[machtuk]

I recall '89 when the GA actor was flooded with jet jockeys at all levels, gunna be somewhat the same now, it is what it is, survival of the fittest, then & now!

[Squawk7700]

I found someone on Airtasker recently to help remove my oversize Yucca from the back yard.

Turns out he is a Virgin 777 FO.

Desperate times!

Good on him for not being too proud to turn to something else in the interim.

[megle2]

Macktuk, exactly.

[Skippy69]

Hi everyone, its interesting to see the bloke who did some tree work and was praised for it... I myself before flying was in the lopping/ climbing industry- In all honesty, I could not think of anything worse then going back to it- Am I an arrogant to proud millennial because of it?? I've flown with FO's who had parents pay for flying or guys and gals who went and got loans to pay for training with no real other transferrable skills- maybe a KFC check out person?

I was a newbie to the jet world and was loving life but then that is all turned upside down- s**t happens..

Im not eager to go back and bust my balls labouring to make a dollar and am interested in what our specific skill sets can be transferred to? I'm struggling for ideas- no instructing either- I am definently not patient enough- nor do I think there will be too many people keen for aviation- lets be fair- it stinks right now.

[PPRuNeUser0184]

I did about a 1000hrs instructing before moving on to other GA operations. Eventually I got an airline job and have spent the last 17 years in RPT. I’ve often looked back at how I instructed as a junior G3 and even though I did my best, my experience was extremely limited. I’ve often thought that I would be a far greater instructor now and my students would benefit from my GA and airline experience. I certainly wouldn’t sweat the small stuff like I used to back in the day. But don’t worry Sunfish, I won’t be renewing my G2 and throwing my weight around the GA airfields any time soon.

Personally I think students would benefit from experienced pilots passing on their knowledge.

[jonkster]

I concur KZ K, I believe people with all sorts of industry experience have much to offer as instructors. Instruction is more than teaching skills, a good instructor is a mentor. (And that mentoring is not just limited to students but also to instructors who are looking to build their careers). Having people with wide experience in the training sector is something to encourage. My 2c anyway.

[DeltaT]

Agreed from YOUR point of view all that experience to pass on, lessons learnt etc etc.
From the EMPLOYER point of view you will leave at the drop of a hat, and why wouldn't you.
Which one decides if you get the job?

[PPRuNeUser0184]

Agreed from YOUR point of view all that experience to pass on, lessons learnt etc etc.
From the EMPLOYER point of view you will leave at the drop of a hat, and why wouldn't you.
Which one decides if you get the job?

Of course that’s the case. Don’t really see what your point is. Nobody is owed or entitled to a job. The employer will pick who they want.

[roundsounds]

You'll need to sit the CASA PIRC (PMI) exam before finishing your flight instructor course. Or possess a CertIV in training and assessment.

The FIR course is subject to the syllabus of the school you choose. Generally you'll be looking at 200hours classroom and 30hours dual including a flight test with an FIR ATO. None of it's very hard, just time consuming. Different quailities of flight instructor are produced from different schools from my observations.

I'd wager most training schools won't be having the large intakes of instructors like they used to. Prior to covid my school would take just about any grade of FIR with any experience. Now we're not taking any onboard. Flight instructors won't be leaving schools as they have no RPT jobs to go to, and experienced instructors will be returning from stood down RPT jobs.

All the same, if you like aviating, it's a good rating to earn.
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maybe GA schools will be busy training ex airline pilots for their Grade 3!

[PaulH1]

I looked into this and despite having been a TRE/TRI for many years, I would get no credit when taking a PPL instructor course. The cost of the course is around 10K taking transport and accommodation into account and when the flying schools are only paying around £25 per hour it would take a long time to even break even. The lockdown will be over first!

[deja vu]

Sunfish, would you rather be taught by an ex-airline pilot or a 200 hour CPL with a fresh instructor rating? Because the latter is extremely prevalent.

C'mon Sunny, give us a trademark pearler for your 8000th.

Is it even possible in Australia to have a CPL with an instructor rating at 200 hours? If so, things have changed since my time. Certainly a former airline career does not guarantee a particularly good instructor, maybe some good war stories.

[Bodie1]

Is it even possible in Australia to have a CPL with an instructor rating at 200 hours?

Yes, it is.

[deja vu]

Yes, it is.

Thanks, any chance you could break down the hours required.
It was once 180 hours minimum for a CPL of which 100 hours had to be in command and then 50 hours of "CA45" which was dual training specifically for an instructor rating which could not be counted toward the CPL hours.

[Styx75]

CPL 150 hours on integrated course, of which 75hours as PIC; or
CPL 200 hours non integrated, of which 100hours as PIC

Around 30 hours dual training for FIR, depending on the syllabus requirements of the school you choose. The requirement for 20 hours mutual has been dropped, so we can even have 180hour instructors now.

CASA recommend that FIR training not be commenced until the student has their CPL. I don't know of any schools that do FIR during CPL, but if there was we could technically have 150hr FI's.

[Bodie1]

I would not liked to have had me as an instructor when I got my rating, fresh off the CPL. Lucky for the studes I got a few jobs and didn't instruct until I had about 1200 TT. The thought of a 180 TT instructor is a bit ridiculous.

[Stickshift3000]

Outside of the 'CASA system', if you have a PPL you can get a FIR and instruct on RAAus machines towards a RPC, all without a CPL.

[andrewr]

Outside of the 'CASA system', if you have a PPL you can get a FIR and instruct on RAAus machines towards a RPC, all without a CPL.

Technically that's true, although I haven't encountered it. It seems more common for experienced commercial pilots to go and instruct in RAA - I guess they don't want to deal with the CASA system, or don't want to work under instructors still working their way towards airline jobs.
Having learnt in both RAA and GA systems, the RAA instructors tended to have more real world commercial flying experience.

[geeup]

I’ve never seen a successful transition from airline pilot back to GA in my limited so called career.

However we have never seen times like this and well 20 bucks is 20 bucks.

Good luck to the operators and pilots that try.

[ANCIENT]

geeup you must live a very sheltered life. For some of us the gloss wore off the airline life and we moved back to more interesting flying.

[machtuk]

geeup you must live a very sheltered life. For some of us the gloss wore off the airline life and we moved back to more interesting flying.

exactly! For me the heavy metal job was just a means to a decent income, gave me the opportunity to do other things inc GA flying. I left the dog eat dog 'bus' industry early to finish off flying commercially with some challenge attached to it! Glad I had the opportunity but wouldn't recommend it!

[geeup]

Cannot disagree I have had a sheltered life in a small pond.

But every time a big fish (from the airlines) comes to the small pond it’s painful for all involved.

Examples that spring to mind 88/89, ex Ansett, Compass, Ozjet, Cathay, RAAF. Makes for a long day in office, crewroom or cockpit cause thats all you are going to hear..

Just my opinion and as I said good luck

[Duck Pilot]

For anyone contemplating doing this, I’d suggest that you study up and pass the CASA PMI exam first. The PMI exam could be quite difficult to pass without doing any pre study. Once that’s done, focus on building “your own” lesson plans. The bulk of the work in a FIR is being able to learn how to develop and give good briefings and debriefings.

It’s certainly not a walk in the park and it requires quite a lot of dedication, particularly for someone older regardless of experience. It’s a completely different mindset in my opinion, from being a line pilot in a multi crew environment.

Good luck for anyone contemplating on doing this, the industry would certainly benefit from a few more experienced people getting into training.

[A37575]

there could be a wealth of experience dumped on the market to train future pilots. Good luck for anyone contemplating on doing this, the industry would certainly benefit from a few more experienced people getting into training.
While flying experience is a plus for an instructor it by no means guarantees that person to be an effective instructor. Good instructors are born - not made. An airline captain with upwards of 10,000 hours you would assume to be a "good" instructor when his students only know him as a sarcastic screaming skull. Few have not had the occasional misfortune to run into these types in airlines and general aviation.

A brand new Grade 3 with 300 hours may have no real life flying experience outside of his local training area. Having said that, depending on his personality he may turn out to have just the right temperament - quiet - not a shouter - and genuinely enjoy his work. Best of all he remembers that: “At the end of the day people won't remember what you said or did, they will remember how you made them feel.”
― Maya Angelou

It is a great pity this adage is never mentioned on instructor courses - RAAF, airline or general aviation

[halas]

Never did instructing. Decided way back when to not be like the 200hr warriors teaching me. And besides, l gave myself ample opportunity to die in a crash, without someone there to help me.
Thought about being a grade 3 in retirement, but that is now a past dream. Thanks China.

Sunfish is correct that airline flying has not much to bring to the table as far as basic flying skills is concerned.
Having said that, would my experience in GA doing all sorts of charter, meat-bombing, survey, Coastwatch, Air Ambulance, commuter, in all weather across the land bring anything to the table either? Probably not.

However, many an old airline operator would have plenty to offer with current or past GA experience.
Not all of us are short fused, grump, shouters.

halas

[Bodie1]

Depends on the person, major business risk to a Flight Training School, not in any particular order, losing aircraft (taken offline), losing staff (at the drop of a hat, not the young ones that you're mentoring and know are going to leave) and poor or incompetent service.

I've had two airline pilots (approaching retirement) approach me for work. Would have taken them immediately if I'd had the work for them. For a couple of reasons, they were both active in GA throughout their airline career, they were both top blokes who didn't bring an airline ego into the school and they both lived local, were staying put and weren't going to shoot through at the drop of a hat.

[non_state_actor]

What exactly is it that "GA" wants? When I was younger the old guard were bitching and whingeing about 200 hour instructors and how they should get some experience, how can you expect to teach when you have never done it etc etc. "back in my day this would never be allowed" etc

These days people with the experience are looking into being instructors and the GA crowd are complaining?? The vast majority of airline pilots have done it all from the bottom up, VFR/IFR Single Pilot/Multi Crew etc etc why is this a bad thing? Or is it that the people invested in GA just want something to complain about or have some sort of 'small man syndrome'?

In the USA you would be encouraged to be an instructor admittedly you could do that off your own back without an AOC and a small forest of paperwork.

[deja vu]

Got a "C" grade instructor rating over 50 years ago, ended with a B grade rating 2 years later and hated almost every minute of it. But thats me, some people are masochists I guess.

I would rather earn twice the money, if not more, by driving a suburban tram or train for 36 hours a week.

[Bodie1]

In the USA you would be encouraged to be an instructor admittedly you could do that off your own back without an AOC and a small forest of paperwork.

This discussion wouldn't be taking place if it were the US. For the very reason you mention.