Avoid the adrenaline junkies

[tcasblue]

At least, consider avoiding the ones who appear to rash things in which they have no experience. In this case, the licensed but low time pilot was flying a Cirrus with a more experienced pilot who already had a situation where he had had his license taken away by the FAA. Of course, there is little hope for preventing an accident with the guy in the right seat who rolled the airplane at low altitude as he likely won't listen. But as a low timer(or experienced pilot) having the chance to fly with someone who sounds like he likes to do 'wild and crazy things' in aircraft and live on the edge....best to just avoid.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ej5FMj-ckvw

https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/ReportGeneratorFile.ashx?EventID=20111113X85646&AKey=1&RType=Final&IType=FA

[Pilot DAR]

Yes. You really have to pick your mentors carefully. The problem is that if you are lesser experience, the person with more experience simply has more experience, but it can be hard to know how much more. And, a person with good flying skills may lack good discipline and crew skills.

A very good tool to protect yourself from impromptu silliness in the cockpit is the preflight briefing. Generally, this is done between two pilots, though if you think it will help, brief yourself for a solo flight, no reason not to! Have the briefing, does it make sense? Does it sound safe? Are there appropriate safety points? Does everything in the briefing conform to the rules and is within the limitations of the plane? (You have the books now, it's a good time to check if in doubt!). Are you confident that the briefed maneuvers are within the skills of the pilot? If there is a briefing, and it sounds compliant, go flying.

Now you're up in the air, is the flight going the way the briefing said it would? If something changes, it should be rebriefed. If that won't work, land, and start again for the next flight. If the pilot you're flying with says: "just let me show you...", "let's try...", or, "watch this", and that's not in the briefing, say no, and the flight should be ended promptly.

Many to many times I have been a passenger/second pilot to "watch this" from the other pilot, and I'm surprised I survived it all. I've been asked in flight to demonstrate things which were not in the plan. While doing a design approval test flight in a club 172 once, I was asked by the right seat instructor if I would show him a roll - no, I would not. I later learned that that instructor was the safety officer for the club!

Yes, I've been taught to roll, by an aerobatic pilot in his 150 Aerobat. Then, I practiced a lot. I also learned and practiced all the other aerobatic maneuvers approved in the Aerobat (yeah, I know, it's not a real aerobatic plane, but it's something...). That done, I can say that a roll is the most likely aerobatic maneuver which, if bungled, will get you in the most trouble fast. There are countless videos of low altitude roll crashes at airshows - and we presume that those pilots should have known how to roll safely!.

Aerobatic maneuvers include pointing the plane toward exceeding a limitation, and then completing the graceful maneuver without exceeding any limitation. We all understand to not exceed Vne, and we have a nicely marked airspeed indicator to assure that we know we're staying within the speed limits. And, the pointer shows you the trend. Aerobatics also involve varying the G loading. Unless the plane is equipped with an G meter, what do you have to assure you that you are flying within the G limits of the plane?

The preflight briefing for a dual aerobatic flight would include a reference to not exceeding any G limits. I wonder how the Cirrus roll pilot would have briefed how they would keep the plane within the G limits....

[megan]

The preflight briefing for a dual aerobatic flight would include a reference to not exceeding any G limitsHow do you do that DAR, determine if G limits have been exceeded? The only G meter equipped aircraft I've flown have been military.

[Maoraigh1]

G meters are certainly fitted to civil aerobatic-certified aircraft. Our Bolkow Junior has one.
The Zlin I did training in at North Las Vegas also had a pressurised mainspar, with a pressure gauge between the seats so any cracking would be retracted.

[Jonzarno]

The preflight briefing for a dual aerobatic flight would include a reference to not exceeding any G limits. I wonder how the Cirrus roll pilot would have briefed how they would keep the plane within the G limits....

Yes, but aerobatics are specifically not permitted in a Cirrus.

[Dan_Brown]

Agree with Dar above.

Two offences in that youtube video. Unauthorised low flying and aerobatics in a "non aerobatic" a/c.

The problem i have with the aerobatics, is this. Even a loop, flown properly, you shouldn't pull anymore G than a good steep turn. However, you only have to screw an aeobatic manoeuvre up, then maybe overstrrss the aircraft. You will only know how much, if you have a g meter installed.

If overstressing is suspected, is the cowboy going to go to engineering and say, "been doing aeros when i shouldn't have done can you check it over?". Hell no, he's going to clam up. That folks is where the real problem lies.
Aircraft spars, metal or composite, have a very long memory. Years ago a Cessna 180, flew to bits with an inosent pilot aboard. The aircraft had been known to have been aero batted, years previously.

Don't do it,people. Think of the .consquences.

Authorised, operational low flying can only be carried out with any degree of safety, only after hours and hours of practise. You only have to have a bird strike in a sensive part of the aircraft, for example. The more high you have, the better. Target fixation and cables/wires are other risks along with a host of others.

[megan]

G meters are certainly fitted to civil aerobatic-certified aircraftIs it a requirement where you are Maoraigh? Not the case here.

https://www.casa.gov.au/file/124771/download?token=XsmwXDnl

[djpil]

Is it a requirement where you are Maoraigh? Not the case here.

https://www.casa.gov.au/file/124771/download?token=XsmwXDnlDepends on the certification of the particular aeroplane type.

[hugh flung_dung]

Even a loop, flown properly, you shouldn't pull anymore G than a good steep turn. However, you only have to screw an aeobatic manoeuvre up, then maybe overstrrss the aircraft. You will only know how much, if you have a g meter installed.
.
I agree with your "don't do it" message but you've been flying some strange loops and steep turns if the gz is similar. A balanced steep turn with 60 degrees of bank will generate about 2g; loop entries and exits will be just under 4g.
Also, to fly a manoeuvre accurately your eyes will be outside, not watching a g meter. A g meter will show the highest and lowest level achieved since reset, but if the pilot is dumb enough to they're probably dumb-enough to reset it afterwards - hence logging g meters in some aircraft. A final thought, cocked-up aeros don't only lead to gz overstress.

HFD

[rnzoli]

One general tool to protect innocent people from accidents caused by pilots is the PASSENGER BRIEFING.
This step can often be found on the "before engine start" checklists and verbalizing the task to be flown reduces the likelyhood of doing something stupid, like unauthorized manouvers, going into IMC with no rating/currency for that etc.
Moreover, the passenger (pilot-rated or not) can also point out deviations that compromise safety and can feel when the flight becomes somewhat abnormal, requesting a return to what was originally planned, or a return to base.
Every non-flying pilot and passenger has the right for a briefing before engine start.
I wouldn't fly with anyone who doesn't give me a brief plan (or plans, e.g., alternatives) before engine start. That's valid also when I fly with instructors too. I need to know, and I have the right to know. You don't play along? You fly alone, or with some other poor soul, have a nice day, bye

A good side-effect is that briefed passengers tolerate turbulence better, indicate any motion-sickness earlier, cooperate with the pilot-flying much better (eg.., scanning for traffic).
So if it's missing totally.... it's a huge red warning light in my head that it's time to step out of that aircraft and live another day.

[Pilot DAR]

G meters are certainly fitted to civil aerobatic-certified aircraft

The only certified aerobatic plane I've flown is the C150 Aerobat, and it is fitted with a G meter in accordance with the parts catalog for the plane - it's required equipment, as are the jettisonable doors and other features unique to the aerobatic version. I'm confident that other certified aerobatic aircraft are also equipped with a G meter.

you've been flying some strange loops and steep turns if the gz is similar. A balanced steep turn with 60 degrees of bank will generate about 2g; loop entries and exits will be just under 4g.

The 150 Aerobat can loop within 3G, if you're light (solo, half tanks). I would agree that a 3G turn would be "strange" in non aerobatic civil flying.

cocked-up aeros don't only lead to gz overstress.

Very true. The greater risk will be overspeeding the plane during a dive recovery, and there is no recording pointer on an airspeed indicator. A risk of aerobatics is that you are deliberately placing the plane such that without rapid corrective action (completing/recovering the maneuver) the plane will exceed a speed or G limitation. Thus entering the maneuver is one thing, but the skill is completing it within limits. When I have required to fly certification spin testing on a modified Cessna Caravans, I equipped the plane with a G meter on the glare shield. Happily, for the second program, based upon my protests, the developed spins were removed from the requirement. My protesting was based on my first program, during which I found it necessary to pull as much as 2.8G near Vne to recover the resulting dive. Had I not installed a G meter, and referenced it during the dive, I would have certainly oversped the plane, while pulling G - a very bad combination. As it was, the testing was successful, and I could confidently state that I had not exceeded a limitation in the client's plane! Airplanes are different in how quickly they speed up in a dive (and risk overspeed). Cessna Caravan, 210, 182RG, and Piper Tomahawk accelerate power off unusually quickly. Most float equipped planes I have flown are difficult to get to Vne at all (so it's usually reduced for float installations).

One general tool to protect innocent people from accidents caused by pilots is the PASSENGER BRIEFING.

In principle, yes. And I greatly endorse the important of a passenger briefing. However, many passengers I know may not be assertive enough to say "stop" when foolishness begins. And, many passengers may not recognize the approach to "maneuvering" until they're in it.... The key is a well disciplined pilot, who will fly with care and responsibility whether watched or not, rather than an adrenaline junkie!

[Dan_Brown]

I agree with your "don't do it" message but you've been flying some strange loops and steep turns if the gz is similar. A balanced steep turn with 60 degrees of bank will generate about 2g; loop entries and exits will be just under 4g.
Also, to fly a manoeuvre accurately your eyes will be outside, not watching a g meter. A g meter will show the highest and lowest level achieved since reset, but if the pilot is dumb enough to they're probably dumb-enough to reset it afterwards - hence logging g meters in some aircraft. A final thought, cocked-up aeros don't only lead to gz overstress.

HFD

A max rate (steep turn) in a high performance aircrft, at a good speed, you're on the pre stall "nibble" all the way round. The turn doesn't have to be level. I.E. maintaning altitude.

Same with a well flown loop, you are on the nibble in certain stages of the manoeuvre. However i do stand to be corrected.

[hugh flung_dung]

I'm very aware of how to teach aeros and MRTs, but I believe you were discussing "good steep turns" rather than MRTs. Very few light aircraft have the power to sustain much more than 3g in an MRT without descending. As an aside, the gotcha when descending to maintain something approaching Va and max turn rate is remembering to resist the aerodynamic pitch-up when levelling the wings - best to unload before the roll.
Yes, a "granny loop" can probably be flown in a lightly-loaded aircraft at 3g but it is unlikely to be circular.

HFD

[Pilot DAR]

"granny loop"

Grandpa maybe? I was flying them long before I was a grandpa... I just entered the loop as the flight manual said to, and was satisfied when I hit my own wake turbulence at the bottom. I was not submitting myself for scoring, so if it wasn't circular.... Oh well....

[hugh flung_dung]

Grandpa maybe? I was flying them long before I was a grandpa... I just entered the loop as the flight manual said to, and was satisfied when I hit my own wake turbulence at the bottom. I was not submitting myself for scoring, so if it wasn't circular.... Oh well....
Sorry about that, it's the common name on this side of the pond for relaxed loops (pull a bit, relax a bit, pull a bit) - no insult intended. :-)
The CAerobat is not a wonderful aeros machine but round loops are possible with a level entry at the right speed, a smooth 4g pull, little bit of right rudder to keep the wingtip in the right place on the horizon as speed decays, relax (or very slight push) at 1/3 point to float over the top (the engine will go a bit quiet!), remove applied rudder as speed builds and control speed by smoothly pulling to 4g, exit level. Protect your engine by either keeping one eye on the RPM gauge and throttling accordingly, or accept lower performance by diving to highest planned airspeed, setting throttle for max RPM at that speed and leaving it set there - you then don't need to worry about the throttle unless you go faster than planned.
I realise you didn't ask for this, but I'm bored ;-)
HFD

[Pilot DAR]

I realise you didn't ask for this, but I'm bored ;-)

Yeah, I've looped the A150 hundreds of times, and I realize it's a compromise aerobatic plane, but, it's what I had to fly... One day, I took the owner's son, a very new pilot, for some planned aerobatics. I briefed the loop. I was just pulling through the vertical, and everything was perfect, to feel a swift push on the control wheel, as he said: "I don't think I like this...". He liked what happened next a lot less than he would have liked the loop! I'm glad that the Aerobat is also well stressed negative! The next loop I flew for him was only my effort, and much better all the way around! He is now a very well known aerobatic airshow pilot - flying a real aerobatic plane. I'm not sure what it is, other than it's a green biplane, painted in reptile scales. He can far out aerobat me now, and he's welcomed to it (I'm too old for that stuff now!).

[megan]

Depends on the certification of the particular aeroplane typeWhat types require the meter djpil? All my civil aeros were long, long ago in Tigers, Chippy, Victa, Decathlon, and none had meters, fully understand if your Pitts requires one, just interested.

[djpil]

What types require the meter djpil? All my civil aeros were long, long ago in Tigers, Chippy, Victa, Decathlon, and none had meters, fully understand if your Pitts requires one, just interested.I won't strain the memory too much. Every Airtourer that I have flown was fitted with a G-meter. The Decathlon's approved AFM states that the G-meter is required for FAA certification.

[megan]

All aerobatic aircraft now require a meter in Oz djpil, when did that happen? Shows how long ago for me.