Robinson service and sense of responsibility - or lack of it

[madman1145]

Been flying R44's commercially for 13 years, some 2.800 hours. Been quiet fun with them ... until now.

Current R44 got new main rotorblades, but after just 34 hours a lot of the yellow or black paint peeled off in big chunks especially the last hour.

Robinson contacted, they are very sorry for the poor paintjob they had done and they are willing to pay for a local painter in Denmark to repaint them.
Then they backtracked when they got the price for the repaint job, and also did not want to guarantee the paintjob if they do not do it themselves.

So now I've got a R44 AOG for additional 3 weeks (4-5 in total), if we are lucky instead of just 1-2 weeks AOG. Thanks Robinson, great service (not really) ...

If they don't want to guarantee a local repaint job for blades they have done a piss-poor job on, they should send us new blades instead of letting the customer wait several weeks for a repaint. They made the faulty blades, not their customer.

This lack of service and lack of responsibility of ones own faults really pisses me off ... if I treated my customers this way, I wouldn't have any very soon.

And we are apparently not the first case. Another Danish R44 had both its paint and primer paint peeling off back in 2017 after just some 30 hours, again Robinson did not want to guarantee a local repaint despite done through a Robinson approved maintenance facility.

Robinson: This is NOT ok especially for a commercial operator that relies on their helicopter(s) !!

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1000x750/2020_05_02_14_41_56_2_8b489e3e60f92d77ed3caebf453659cfe773b5 2a.jpg
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1000x750/2020_05_02_14_40_14_2_f5d9e72e0b81f46eb1d8019b1442eb9b14881b 0b.jpg
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1000x750/2020_05_02_14_37_29_2_f95a8c71abca52bee8deecd359e2a7b5764915 86.jpg

[helicopter-redeye]

Don’t see the Danish link. If the blades all come out of the US then everybody’s blades should be peeling the same?

[madman1145]

Don’t see the Danish link. If the blades all come out of the US then everybody’s blades should be peeling the same?

I don't say there is a Danish link. But I can only speak to what I know of, that is the Danish market. If others around the world have experienced similarly, I wouldn't know unless they speak up ..

[gulliBell]

Consumer law for products with major defects occurring early in a warranty period ordinarily requires product replacement. They should ship you a new set of blades, and pay shipping on the return of your defective blades.

[old,not bold]

It's not simply that products fail, it's the manufacturer's response when they do that really counts. That paint problem is clearly unacceptable, but maybe it's the paint that's bad, not Robinson.

But that makes no difference to how the customer should be treated. If a customer needs to rely on consumer law to force a manufacturer to do what's right, that manufacturer has lost the plot.

As it is, their response as described is suicidal. Are they determined to lose business? Their product isn't so unique, or desirable, or cheap that they can afford to behave like that.

A replacement set of blades should have been shipped within hours, no ifs, no buts. It's an AOG situation in a commercial operation, isn't it? Plus a proper, urgent, technical investigation into why the paint stripped off like that, with an identified remedial action plan. Just repainting with the same paint/primer/process, in a local approved shop or by the manufacturer, does not cut the mustard.

[aa777888]

Wow, that's really bad, in more ways than one :(

Just put some new blades an R44 here back in Jan. Not too many hours on them yet.

[Airmotive]

Not a Robbie guy but I have a few connections....
Welcome to manufacturing in California...where high quality paint is banned and the mediocre paint that the state actually allows has so many restrictions on how/when/where it can be applied that Robinson was nearly forced to send every aircraft to Mexico just to be painted. They instead spent millions of dollars to construct a California state-approved paint shack using California state-approved paint.
This is your California state-approved paint job.

[Buitenzorg]

Did it fly in rain with the new blades?

[madman1145]

Did it fly in rain with the new blades?

Funny you mention that. Robinson also initially asked that, which I found hilarious asking from the manufacturer, thinking its a Clipper version ..
And the answer is yes, it has flown through a few light showers in VMC conditions ..

[Hilico]

Ship I know of is on its third set of blades in 1000hrs - and that wasn’t even the paint.

[evil7]

Quote: Did it fly in rain with the new blades?

Why? You think they used aquarell color? :E

[Myrtletheturtle]

I was told Robinson cant use paint/ primer of certain types due to California's law, not sure how true it is.
I know some places pre feather the paint on the leading edge of new blades to try and reduce this from happening.

[megan]

I was told Robinson cant use paint/ primer of certain types due to California's law, not sure how true it is.It's true. Quality aviation paint shops moved out of California when they introduced their EPA rules about paint, memory has faded, but it was a long time ago it happened.

[Self loading bear]

It's true. Quality aviation paint shops moved out of California when they introduced their EPA rules about paint, memory has faded, but it was a long time ago it happened.

This may be the case but Robinson has elected to adopt California EPA regulation and have apparently succeeded as the paint does not come off from all aircraft.

What is worrying is that Robinson apparently have not sufficient control over the environmental conditions inside the paint booth or sufficient control on surface preparation.

If they have not this control in the paint system,
What about their resin bonding system?

[wrench1]

I was told Robinson cant use paint/ primer of certain types due to California's law, not sure how true it is.
FYI: as mentioned above, it's true as solvent based paints became illegal to sell in CA. However, the vehicle/aircraft paint industry has been moving toward waterborne paints for quite some time now. These non-solvent paints have different characteristics and require a different application technique as well as are a little more sensitive to environmental conditions. That still doesn't explain the OPs problem or Robbies response. Perhaps there's more to this as I'm curious if the "Robinson" contacted is a local/Euro dealer or the head shed in US.

[madman1145]

Perhaps there's more to this as I'm curious if the "Robinson" contacted is a local/Euro dealer or the head shed in US.

Nope, its very straight forward. The operator I fly under is also a Robinson Service Center so they also maintain the helicopter regularly, so I know first-hand they talked to Robinson Helicopter Company directly about this.

[Buitenzorg]

Funny you mention that. Robinson also initially asked that, which I found hilarious asking from the manufacturer, thinking its a Clipper version ..
And the answer is yes, it has flown through a few light showers in VMC conditions ..
Why? You think they used aquarell color?
Because quite some time ago, during a ferry of a freshly-factory-overhauled R22, I had occasion to fly it through drizzle for rather less than half an hour and picked up similar damage to paint of the MR blades, on the outboard 2-3 ft of the leading edges. The operator enquired and found out that freshly-applied paint, although dry, takes another ~6 months to fully “harden”. Water droplets hitting the leading edge at close to the speed of sound can crack the softer coat of paint there, and subsequent impacting droplets will get under the layer of paint and peel it back. We were pulling ~3” of manifold pressure more to hover at the end of this short flight than on initial takeoff, due to the extra drag from the layer of paint standing up from the blades’ surface. It was recommended to try and avoid flying in even light rain for the first 6 months after blades are painted.

[Bell_ringer]

It was recommended to try and avoid flying in even light rain for the first 6 months after blades are painted.

That sums up the Robinson philosophy quite well: If you can't do something properly, make it the pilot's problem.

[madman1145]

It was recommended to try and avoid flying in even light rain for the first 6 months after blades are painted.

If that is the case, Robinson should make an amendment to the POH or Safety Notice or such like.

And its quiet scary you mention you needed 3" more power than normal, due to contaminated blades we can call them. That is a real safety issue, its not that the R22 is overpowered to start with ...

[AAKEE]

If that is the case, Robinson should make an amendment to the POH or Safety Notice or such like.

What about not delivering blades until the paint is hardened enough for the real world ?

[madman1145]

What about not delivering blades until the paint is hardened enough for the real world ?

Or that. I agree ...

[[email protected]]

If that is the case, Robinson should make an amendment to the POH or Safety Notice or such like.

And its quiet scary you mention you needed 3" more power than normal, due to contaminated blades we can call them. That is a real safety issue, its not that the R22 is overpowered to start with ...
I'd be more worried about the ability to maintain RRPM in autorotation with all that extra profile drag!

[haihio]

I feel feel sorry for operators specially the small ones when **** like this happens.

would a switch to something like a Bell 206 be an option for the future ?

[aa777888]

would a switch to something like a Bell 206 be an option for the future ?Can't speak for the OP, but the answer would be "No" for most R44 operators. I also can't speak to other countries, but in the U.S. you take an instant jump from $250-300/hr (assuming 500 hours per year) to $500-600/hr. Plus you get engine start cycle limited. This doubling of operating cost is primarily due to greatly increased engine overhaul and insurance costs amortized over the 500 hours. Thus the R44 fills an undeniable niche. Note that it's the same story when you go to an R66, Bell 505, or MD500/Hughes 369. The only difference is the capital cost of the helicopter. All are very similar operating cost-wise. For small/short tour op's, training, and any other cost-sensitive market, the jump to turbine operating costs, direct and indirect, just eats you alive.

[wrench1]

I know first-hand they talked to Robinson Helicopter Company directly about this.
Is Robinson performing the repair to your blades under warranty? Are there any loaner blades available? Unfortunately, slack AOG service isn't solely a Robbie issue. Every OEM has left an operator (even large operators) hanging at one time or another. Eurocopter/Airbus/Turbomeca has/had a good track record for leaving you stuck at the most inopportune time. And at one time it was said Agusta/Leonardo were catching up to them. Good luck.

[madman1145]

would a switch to something like a Bell 206 be an option for the future ?

We are working on it though not a 206 - nor a R66 ..

[madman1145]

Is Robinson performing the repair to your blades under warranty?

The blades are being shipped to them, they pay for the repair .. as mentioned in my initial posting, first they where sorry and would pay for a local repair in Denmark, but when they got the quote they backtracked plus suddenly no guarantee if they didn't do it themselves ...

[Arnie Madsen]

It appears the green undercoat has good adhesion .... looks like a vinyl-wash primer which is excellent over aluminum .... then the whole blade was painted white with the black and yellow over top of the white.

The bond failed between the primer and the white .... and I agree with what others have said .... the paint is most likely waterborne because of California regulations.

They are still sorting out water based paints in the automobile industry and it is the last thing I would use on a rotor blade .... not only that it has been applied way too thick .

IMRON Polyurethane is still the best aircraft paint , true plastic coating , flexible and glossy and shrugs off bugs better than anything else. A sufficient coat of white for coverage and gloss .... paint is heavy .... pick up a quart and consider how much weight it adds to a blade .... so use minimum when possible .... and if erosion protection is desired use extra on the black leading edge only.

I wish I was in Denmark , I would paint them for you

[MLH]

As a prior owner of two 44's I was fortunate in avoiding the myriad of MRB issues and associated expense. Given all of the ongoing problems and poor customer service, it's difficult to justify continued support of the brand.

[homonculus]

As a prior owner of two 44's I was fortunate in avoiding the myriad of MRB issues and associated expense. Given all of the ongoing problems and poor customer service, it's difficult to justify continued support of the brand.

Cost. Nothing else. As others have said if you cant afford anything better, you buy a Robbie. However, without Robinson many of us would never have afforded to learn and the industry would be smaller and poorer

[aa777888]

Cost. Nothing else. As others have said if you cant afford anything better, you buy a Robbie. However, without Robinson many of us would never have afforded to learn and the industry would be smaller and poorer

That's actually a pretty narrow view of the subject. The R44 is the only 4 place machine that can operate in the $250-$300/hr range (wholesale). This makes it unique in the industry and marketplace. Its creation opened up the market substantially for all kinds of customers that would never have been previously able to afford helicopter operations. This goes well beyond training and private business/pleasure use. It also includes tours from 6 to 60 minutes, photography, survey, ENG, public safety, etc.. You name it, the R44 can often do it as well and at half the cost of the least expensive turbine powered ship. The R44 lags only the Jetranger in it's popularity, and probably only because the Jetranger has been around longer. Leaving emotion aside, the reasons for this are completely obvious, and the efficiency and utility of the machine undeniable. The only substantially negative thing about the R44 is that, as a lightweight, two-bladed teetering rotor head, low main rotor inertia design, it has, also undeniably, less safety margin with respect to turbulence and autorotation performance. Since people were apparently too stupid to appreciate these things, its appreciation was mandated by SFAR 73. Since SFAR 73 its safety record in the US has become no worse than many other helicopters (although it remains abysmal in certain other countries, which speaks to how those countries approach rotary wing aviation, not the design). Its ubiquity in the marketplace is what causes it to be in the news for accidents more often than other helicopters, not its design or performance.

Don't let the emotional baggage of pre-SFAR R22 and R44 operations cloud your judgement of a modern R44 (or even a modern R22). If you've never flown one go blow a few hundred bucks, get your SFAR 73 sign-off, and put an hour on one. You might be surprised, and I mean that in a good way!

[[email protected]]

That's actually a pretty narrow view of the subject. The R44 is the only 4 place machine that can operate in the $250-$300/hr range (wholesale). This makes it unique in the industry and marketplace. Its creation opened up the market substantially for all kinds of customers that would never have been previously able to afford helicopter operations. This goes well beyond training and private business/pleasure use. It also includes tours from 6 to 60 minutes, photography, survey, ENG, public safety, etc.. You name it, the R44 can often do it as well and at half the cost of the least expensive turbine powered ship. The R44 lags only the Jetranger in it's popularity, and probably only because the Jetranger has been around longer. Leaving emotion aside, the reasons for this are completely obvious, and the efficiency and utility of the machine undeniable. The only substantially negative thing about the R44 is that, as a lightweight, two-bladed teetering rotor head, low main rotor inertia design, it has, also undeniably, less safety margin with respect to turbulence and autorotation performance. Since people were apparently too stupid to appreciate these things, its appreciation was mandated by SFAR 73. Since SFAR 73 its safety record in the US has become no worse than many other helicopters (although it remains abysmal in certain other countries, which speaks to how those countries approach rotary wing aviation, not the design). Its ubiquity in the marketplace is what causes it to be in the news for accidents more often than other helicopters, not its design or performance.

Don't let the emotional baggage of pre-SFAR R22 and R44 operations cloud your judgement of a modern R44 (or even a modern R22). If you've never flown one go blow a few hundred bucks, get your SFAR 73 sign-off, and put an hour on one. You might be surprised, and I mean that in a good way!
You would think that a company capable of producing a product which sits in a unique position in the market would be smart enough not to p*ss off it's customers by producing a sub-standard paint job on the blades which is clearly not fit for purpose.

[aa777888]

You would think that a company capable of producing a product which sits in a unique position in the market would be smart enough not to p*ss off it's customers by producing a sub-standard paint job on the blades which is clearly not fit for purpose.
On an absolute scale I can't disagree with you, Crab. From a relative perspective...

Every OEM has left an operator (even large operators) hanging at one time or another. Eurocopter/Airbus/Turbomeca has/had a good track record for leaving you stuck at the most inopportune time. And at one time it was said Agusta/Leonardo were catching up to them.
Not that makes it right, surely.

There is also the fact that Robinson has an effective monopoly on the low end of the market. Until we see a putative Cabri G4 or the like, that keeps hourly operating costs within shouting distance of the R44, it's going to stay that way. IMHO, anything over $375/hr is a non-starter and you might as well go turbine if your mission won't cause issues with turbine cycles.

[Bell_ringer]

Don't let the emotional baggage of pre-SFAR R22 and R44 operations cloud your judgement of a modern R44 (or even a modern R22). If you've never flown one go blow a few hundred bucks, get your SFAR 73 sign-off, and put an hour on one. You might be surprised, and I mean that in a good way!

Never been fussed by the early history, it's the ongoing safety funk that permeates the aircraft and those that use them.
Robbie have never managed to master rotor blades, there has been one iteration after the next, each with a new problem as they have tried, and failed, after decades, to produce a safe and reliable component.
I am not disputing that it isn't more challenging to stretch tinfoil over balsa wood :}, but they should by now have had enough practice.
Their clientele must be less discerning or are just happy with the cost compromise.

I am grateful that they exist, as others have said, they made the entry to civilian pilots much more accessible. My last hour in one was 2015, what a glorious day it was to be rid of that contraption.

[Robbiee]

Cost. Nothing else. As others have said if you cant afford anything better, you buy a Robbie. However, without Robinson many of us would never have afforded to learn and the industry would be smaller and poorer

Not all of us were forced to fly Robby. In my early days of renting I also had the S300 and Enstrom to chose from in my area, but I loved flying the R22, so I stuck with the little guy.

In fact, if money were no object there would be one in my garage,...right in between my Lamborghini and Bell 222

[Twist & Shout]

Not all of us were forced to fly Robby. In my early days of renting I also had the S300 and Enstrom to chose from in my area, but I loved flying the R22, so I stuck with the little guy.

In fact, if money were no object there would be one in my garage,...right in between my Lamborghini and Bell 222

I’ve enjoyed many hours flying R22/R44
If money were less of a problem, I’d have an R44.

If money were no object there would be a H500D between my Ferrari and my AW189.

[nomorehelosforme]

Has anyone had similar problems with other manufacturers? And if so how did they respond to concerns raised, I’m sure every owner/operator has had some bad experiences.

[Robbiee]

I’ve enjoyed many hours flying R22/R44
If money were less of a problem, I’d have an R44.

If money were no object there would be a H500D between my Ferrari and my AW189.

Ah, but would you still buy that 500 if they told you, you had to keep it out of the rain for the first six months?

[rottenjohn]

An issue with a R44 that Robinson don’t want to know about. I’ve lost 3 friends in those things in 3 separate accidents. That company is one of denial and blame. Haven’t flown one now for over 10 years, would not get in one again.

[aa777888]

The R22 and R44 are probably the most studied helicopter designs ever. It would seem unlikely there is something unknown about them at this point. With all due respect to your friends, certain countries outside the US, in particular NZ and Brasil, are dramatic statistical outliers compared to the US for Robinson accidents. Since the designs are the same worldwide, this can only speak to how they are trained, flown and maintained in those countries.

[Bell_ringer]

Is there any scenario where the operators and pilots aren't blamed for the aircraft's reputation?
Or is that just the case until it happens to you, or people you respect?

Robbie has had particularly strong sales in some key regions, it shouldn't be a surprise that those regions have more accidents. Brazil is an odd case, much like Russia, they seem determined to shuffle off their mortal coil in anything with wings, most likely cultural.

[Spunk]

Over the past 15 years I've been operating various types of helicopters and I have had various issues with all of the manufacturers and their representatives (Bell, RR, Airbus, Safran and Leonardo).
So far, I've always had the impression that their reps should be on an exchange program with Robinson to learn about "Customer Support" and "How to treat your customer the right way".
RHC has always been very friendly and helpful when we needed them. It's sad to hear that in this case (obviously) something really goes wrong.

[aa777888]

We've had this discussion already, BR, multiple times. Here is one example:

https://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/600303-another-robinson-crash-3.html#post9923929

So the short answer is to your question is "no, there generally is no such scenario", with the inevitable few exceptions, of course. Robinson helicopters don't just fall out of the sky (there was a great topic on that very statement but it eludes my search button at the moment). Unless you think there is a vast conspiracy at the Robinson factory along the lines of "Oh, crap, this one came out like ****, let's ship it to some other country."

And let there be no illusions, or in my case self-deception: I could be the next pilot to f*ck up. As we all know, any pilot at any level of skill or risk aversion can and does make mistakes. Sometimes fatal mistakes. Most of us endeavor with all our might to not be That Guy. I certainly do. If I fly the Robinson in accordance with the POH it's not likely to be the helicopter's fault.

[Hot and Hi]

With all due respect to your friends, certain countries outside the US, in particular NZ and Brasil, are dramatic statistical outliers compared to the US for Robinson accidents. Since the designs are the same worldwide, this can only speak to how they are trained, flown and maintained in those countries.
A bit of anecdotal evidence here from an Australian R22 accident report I read about today in "Vertical". (https://www.verticalmag.com/press-releases/r22-helicopters-collision-with-terrain-highlights-the-risks-of-low-level-flying-in-hazardous-weather-conditions/?utm_source=vertical-daily-news-todays-news&utm_campaign=vertical-daily-news&utm_medium=email&utm_term=todays-news&utm_content=V1)

A Robinson R22 helicopter collided with terrain when it likely encountered a downdraft with insufficient height to recover... The investigation also found a number of other factors that increased risk, including incomplete pre-flight planning, overloading, a forward centre-of-gravity, and the pilot’s elevated blood alcohol level.

“Examination of the pilot’s iPad and iPhone found it was unlikely that flight planning data, such as meteorological information, had been accessed in the lead-up to the flight,” ... The investigation report also notes that it was very likely that the helicopter was overweight on departure and its centre-of-gravity was beyond the forward limit for the entire flight.

The report also notes that alcohol was also present in the pilot’s blood at a level capable of impairing performance. However, evidence of previous low flying suggested the pilot’s actions may have been normal behaviour and not influenced by alcohol.

[Twist & Shout]

Thread drift. As often is the case with Robinson discussion.

If I fly the Robinson in accordance with the POH it's not likely to be the helicopter's fault.

This is why I would fly an R22/R44 again.
But wouldn’t fly an EC225 again.

[madman1145]

Update:

After a leeengthy wait due to looong freight times over The Atlantic, had the R44 AOG for approx. 1.5 month for a paint issue, got the blades back, nice and newly painted. And then this is how they look like after some-10 hours of flight time :mad:

Now... Is it just us that is extremely unfortunate with the blades since it now happens a 2nd time for the same blades, or is there a more general quality issue with Robinson Helicopters rotorblade painting ? - Would like to hear from others if they have experienced the same as we have on brand new blades that hardly has any hours flown ...

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1600x1200/img_6465_ec70b433d90db7242e291bcd42f35ee607443fec.jpg

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1600x1200/img_6464_02a602565db99fca1c63bcf14efb5579855f5fde.jpg

[aa777888]

Damn. That's crazy bad.

I've seen 3 or 4 other instances of this same problem reported across a couple of different helicopter related Facebook groups over the last few months. So you are not unique, but it's also not an full blown epidemic.

I put on a set of new -7's in Jan. They are up to about 50 hours now (pandemic has really chilled operations) and so far so good, but keeping an eagle eye on them. No operations in rain on them yet.

[nomorehelosforme]

That is crazy! Robinson need to have a good look at their paint shop or blade suppliers paint shop. You wouldn’t expect the paint to come off your new Lada after a 1000 miles!

[Reely340]

Here is a business proposal for anyone wiht enough dough: Get a license for S-300 rotorblades and reconfigure them to R44 format/dimensions/grips and get them STCed. You'll become obscenely rich, as the RHC apparently can not manufacture sustainable blades.

For all the years I lurk at PPRuNe I keep reading of -4 bladses vs. -7 and delamination and what not. Other companies have horrible devliery times (S-300C rotormasts need a US lawyers "afterburner" to make shure you get them after having ordered them a year before you need them) a BO105 wind shield wiper gearbox (sans motor) is 15.000 € from Airbus, a Gazelle clutch triples in price on its way from the serbian(?) manufacturer to Airbus Form1-issuing dept.

But only RHC definitely is not able to manufacture blades for its fleet, that last.
That is a fact validated over many years and product revisions. Where are we now, btw? -12 or even -15?

[ericferret]

That is crazy! Robinson need to have a good look at their paint shop or blade suppliers paint shop. You wouldn’t expect the paint to come off your new Lada after a 1000 miles!
Nor would you expect the paint to come off the tops of the cockpits on brand new Boeing 737's on delivery flights to the U.K followed by all the paint coming off of the rivets heads during service shortly afterwards.

[Sikpilot]

"Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

[Reely340]

Seems manufacturing reliable blades is no black magic:
https://www.jetwhine.com/2018/06/enstrom-helicopter-blade-maker/
When well done "on-condition" means 22000 hours service life!
That would be one set of Enstrom blades outlive 10 robinson overhauls.

[Paul Cantrell]

Seems manufacturing reliable blades is no black magic:
https://www.jetwhine.com/2018/06/enstrom-helicopter-blade-maker/
When well done "on-condition" means 22000 hours service life!
That would be one set of Enstrom blades outlive 10 robinson overhauls.

I've got about 500 hours in Enstrom F28As, and love a lot about them. They're roomy, and easy to autorotate, and they've put many an A&P's kids through college! And yeah, the head and blades are pretty much bulletproof. They have, like lots of Americans, a bit of a weight problem. In my mind, they're sort of the Checker Cab of the American helicopter industry ( https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Checker_Taxi ). Bulletproof construction, if not exactly sexy from a specs standpoint.

They are, seriously, built like tanks. And the A model hovers like a tank, too ( I.e not all that great ).

I got checked out by an acquaintance who had a fair bit of time in them, and was quite fond of them ( as I am ). However, he had moved onto other types so he may have been a bit rusty in type at the time he checked me out. He was an extremely experienced pilot, having flown OH6 in Vietnam, and many types subsequently.

In any case we worked on normal stuff like hovering, and manipulating the ( uncorrelated ) throttle, which was pretty easy in the A model because you pretty much roll it full on and leave it there for the entire flight ( I kid, I kid ).

In any case it came time for him to show me my first Enstrom autorotation. Keep in mind that he had been flying 222s and such, so not only was he rusty in the Enstrom, he probably hadn't flown anything that small in a while.

So, when the flare stopped us 15-20 feet in the air, and we fell the rest of the way to the ground, you can imagine I was a little concerned for the machine. He assured me that it would take a lot more than THAT to hurt an Enstrom, and proceeded with the checkout.

Sure enough the machine was fine and we continued with my checkout including night touchdowns, etc.

A robustly built helicopter, and if it wouldn't hover all summer long, well that's what running takeoffs and landings are for, right? :ok:

[Robbiee]

Yeah, that's pretty much my experience in the Enstrom, built like a tank, autos like a dream! I just didn't think it was much fun to fly. If I were gonna be stuck flying one model for 22,000 hours,...I'd pick a Hot Wheels Robby over a Tonka tuff Enstrom any day.
:E

[GC47G]

Well said sir

[HeliMurr]

Hi Madman, How did Robinson resolve the problem with your 2nd set of blades? Did they cover 100% of the cost of the first set of blades? (freight, brokerage, install, balancing, etc) Doesn't really matter if they sent you a faulty 2nd set! How much did you have to "arm wrestle" with them to get any action? I have the exact same problem with a set of blade I just installed with now only 50 hours. I wonder how many more R44's have the same problem?? I would post a picture or 2 of my blades but I can't attach a URL until I have 10 posts on the forum.

[madman1145]

Hi HeliMurr;

At the moment our maintenance is regularly painting the leading edges with a wear layer. No trust that Robinson should be able a 2nd time to repaint them properly. This is easier and faster than ship them back to Robinson again from EU.

The reason I initially made this post was a last hope that someone at Robinson management would see what they did was wrong, I/we had nothing to loose anymore than try this last hope going online with it. And nothing, nada, zero response. So, I guess this is Robinson new level of customer satisfaction ...

Robinson only paid for the repaint and I believe the return freight. Which took ages due to priority of COVID19 shipments over regularly shipments. Or maybe they just paid the lowest fee that god bumped back for the same reason.
My faith in Robinson has severely deteriorated. We are again looking at acquiring a new helicopter, and if I have a saying its not going to be a Robinson. Ever again - despite having flown them for 14 years now, but this is BAD !!.

You are welcome to send me your pictures, I can post them if you like.

[GrayHorizonsHeli]

if you go with Airbus, you'll realise how good you had it with Robinson.

[PhlyingGuy]

Definitely look at the Bell 505 then!

[Twist & Shout]

Not to defend Robinson’s customer service (Which no doubt shames Airbus). The paint issues (not only blades) I believe is forced on them by Draconian regulations in California.

All paint used must be not only edible, but healthy and gluten free, or something.

The obvious solution is that they relocate their manufacturing plant to somewhere with more realistic regulations. (If such place still exists)

[John R81]

Given the risk to safety - noting the reference to degraded flight performance above - why would the regulator not step in at this point and prohibit the current practice of painting the blades with a substance with an unacceptable risk of separation? Is this not a regulatory failure? If action were to be taken by the regulator then the focus would be on finding a safe solution.

[Bell_ringer]

Not to defend Robinson’s customer service (Which no doubt shames Airbus). The paint issues (not only blades) I believe is forced on them by Draconian regulations in California.

All paint used must be not only edible, but healthy and gluten free, or something.

The obvious solution is that they relocate their manufacturing plant to somewhere with more realistic regulations. (If such place still exists)

There must be more than a couple of maintenance facilities in CA, you mean to say that no one in the entire state can manage to spray anything without the paint coming off within in a few days?
Sounds like an old wives tale.

[[email protected]]

All paint used must be not only edible, but healthy and gluten free, or something. and taste of avocado??:)

[Twist & Shout]

There must be more than a couple of maintenance facilities in CA, you mean to say that no one in the entire state can manage to spray anything without the paint coming off within in a few days?
Sounds like an old wives tale.

I’m no expert, but have been told that California (as a State) has VERY restrictive laws on what paints can be used.

[madman1145]

Definitely look at the Bell 505 then!
505 is unfortunately a no go for us with floats on, it can't lift enough - when you include standard equipment like lets say, a rotorbrake ...

I tried it as well when demoed in Denmark last year, nice to fly but the Bell salespeople had to admit after some calculations that I was right, it is quite limited on payload when equipped with floats and a decent amount of fuel onboard. The floats incl. bottle etc. for the 505 weigh roughly twice the amount than the ones on the R66, despite both are certified to SeaState 4.
And noise is a real issue we have to face where we fly in the future, so it really comes down to a used EC120.

[aa777888]

If a 505 won't carry what you want, not sure an EC120 can, either.

On paper an EC120 without floats carries 876lb in cabin with full fuel and no other options. An R66 Turbine Marine carries 862 with floats. Spec. the Lithium battery on the 66 and you can increase that to 888 lbs.

The 505 really does play it fast and loose compared to the 66 in terms of features, trim and weight. At full fuel, by the time you add all the things that are standard on a 66 (headliner, door openers, rotor brake, etc.) you are below 900 lbs in cabin compared to 927 in the 66 (without floats) and still travelling 50NM less than a 66. With the Lithium battery the 66 bumps up to 953 lbs in cabin.

No question the 505 and 120 are nicer to sit in and easier to load with cargo.

[madman1145]

The EC120 with same amount of endurance and floats lifts a bit better than the 505. Not much, but a bit. And since the 66 is no-go and noise over city is a big issue that only increase over time, we have to make due with an EC120.

[aa777888]

Even at 3/4 fuel it substantially lags the 66 for in cabin payload when float equipped, at only around 776lbs allowed. And now you are well under 300nm range as well. Not to mention OGE performance of 7600ft vs. 10000 for the 66.

That seems like a rather draconian trade off. Just out of curiosity, if you don't mind sharing, what are your payload and range requirements?

[madman1145]

R66 has much higher payload, sure. But Robinson is no no, that simple. Will not risk come in the same situation again as we have had with the R44 and lack of proper support from the manufacture.
Denmark is flat as a pancake. Highest natural point is approx. 560', don't need to go to 7.600 or 10.000'. Southern Sweden not much higher neither is northern Germany.
Don't worry, I have done my calculations correct. So good that even the Bell representative had to admit I was right and their representative was wrong and checked their calculations at the presentation.

[aa777888]

I absolutely wasn't questioning your math! And I find it hugely entertaining in regards to the 505, too! I was just curious about your actual load and range requirements. Clearly they must fit within the capabilities of the 120, just wondering what the numbers are, how they trade off for you.

[madman1145]

High spec similarly comparison for all three models (R66, B505 and EC120), meaning Garmin 750 GPS, Garmin G500H for R66 and EC120, A/C, Floats etc. and 2 hours of fuel + 30 min. reserve, an 80kg pilot and usefull load become approx. 320 kg. for R66, 235 kg. for B505 and 270 kg. for EC120.

[aa777888]

OK, so 2 pax plus bags, or 3 pax, 220NM range, give or take. Thanks.

[HeliMurr]

Hi HeliMurr;

At the moment our maintenance is regularly painting the leading edges with a wear layer. No trust that Robinson should be able a 2nd time to repaint them properly. This is easier and faster than ship them back to Robinson again from EU.

The reason I initially made this post was a last hope that someone at Robinson management would see what they did was wrong, I/we had nothing to loose anymore than try this last hope going online with it. And nothing, nada, zero response. So, I guess this is Robinson new level of customer satisfaction ...

Robinson only paid for the repaint and I believe the return freight. Which took ages due to priority of COVID19 shipments over regularly shipments. Or maybe they just paid the lowest fee that god bumped back for the same reason.
My faith in Robinson has severely deteriorated. We are again looking at acquiring a new helicopter, and if I have a saying its not going to be a Robinson. Ever again - despite having flown them for 14 years now, but this is BAD !!.

You are welcome to send me your pictures, I can post them if you like.


Hi Madman, I am not too active on this site and just noticed you responded to post about the paint peeling off new Robinson blades. What email can I use to send you pictures that you can post? It would also be good if other owner/operators are having the same problem with limited help from Robinson Helicopter Company (RHC).

Thanks in Advance.

[madman1145]

Hi HeliMurr;

You can send them on man-at-madman.dk ..

Thanks

[madman1145]

HeliMurr's picture that I have uploaded for him. It looks just like what we have experienced, even after respray it very soon begins to chip off again :( ...

Before respray ..
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/640x480/helimurr4_d5bb4b4d8c781b1e5896a37a62986d60c1f9a246.jpg
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/640x480/helimurr3_5971dd14397ef05bd210ceda94fea99894e473e9.jpg

After respray and less than 10 flight hours ..
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/640x480/helimurr2_1a66f437e5ae50511019f5bc1cc697d7eaec7f15.jpg
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/640x480/helimurr1_6ab6a29ddd894b36d942aba2dda5433a1dc50d9c.jpg

[aa777888]

Who did the respray? Robinson?

[Hughes500]

Have you been flying in rain ?

[madman1145]

Who did the respray? Robinson?
Robinson factory work, yes :suspect:

Hughes500. Don't know about HeliMurr, but we had been close to showers a few times or flown through light rain. I guess it is what it is when using watercolor paint ...