Base Training, Command Courses, POS18 and job cuts

[controlledrest]

Why are base training and upgrades (including commands) occurring while we are also facing POS18 and redundancies?

[markontop]

Why indeed.
As the redundancy, “keeping the band together” talk-threat is the push towards COS18.
However the optics of training and upgrades is very contradictory.

[mr did]

Everything in the press is either virtue signalling as part of the negotiating strategy or the usual catch up third hand dross from the likes of the SCMP.

[viking avenger]

SCMP. Click bait, We are attractive and help sell newspapers, and last I check SCMP isn’t being loaded on the 200 plus Passenger aircraft departures a day.

[hyg]

it's because to the company, a 15year Capt cost a lot more than a 1 year Capt..... same for FO at the top of the scale cost way more than a JFO.... if you want conspiracy theory? they are training the replacement of the guys who might be tempted to take the very exciting voluntary byebye deal

[Angel 8]

Fair enough hyg, but if they want rid of, say 500 pilots in line with other major airlines, I would suggest, at best 100 or even 200 will be tempted with what you call “very exciting voluntary deal”, if CX is capable of “exciting”. That still leaves 300 to 400 redundancies from the bottom.
Base closure would probably see more leave on the “exciting” deal as compared to having to relocate to HKG. But even then, they would still need to clear some from the bottom.

[SabrinaSenior]

I have it on good authority that the plan for Cx express involves getting rid of a scale / b scale / travel fund goodies at dragon by offering any ex dragon pilot to join Cx on cos18.

[AQIS Boigu]

There will be no redundancies from the bottom.

Why get rid off the cheapest crew?

[Angel 8]

There will be no redundancies from the bottom.

Why get rid off the cheapest crew?

Even if they change contract and all pilots sign for the new CoS then they will still need to trim from the bottom up. That is the only acceptable and contractual way, whether cheap or not.

[mngmt mole]

Aquis. You seem quite certain of that. I think all levels will be hit. Bases, senior people in hk (probably a meager buy out offer) and probably some junior ranks (otherwise the legal aspects will prove difficult for CX). Regardless, worrying times and no one really has any accurate idea (and that certainly includes me !). Good luck to everyone...we'll need it.

[OK4Wire]

There will be no redundancies from the bottom.

Why get rid off the cheapest crew?

ah, because they are not really pilots yet?

Sabrina, I agree.

[Pickuptruck]

The losers on here have spent the best part of a decade going on about the wonder of first world labour laws everywhere else. Virtually no first world airline, BA, QF etc are following contract and culling in seniority, yet you’re all expecting CX to?

bwahahaha. Funniest thing I’ve read all day.

[Slasher1]

The losers on here have spent the best part of a decade going on about the wonder of first world labour laws everywhere else. Virtually no first world airline, BA, QF etc are following contract and culling in seniority, yet you’re all expecting CX to?

bwahahaha. Funniest thing I’ve read all day.

That's not correct. US carriers are following their contracts.

It is true they've avoided layoffs (which will probably happen anyway) through the use of voluntary compensated leave schemes (to include early retirements with significant compensation). But when push comes to shove they will have to follow the contract and layoff by seniority. As will elements of CX stationed in the US. And this IS enforceable.

[drfaust]

Well that’s why redundancies suck don’t they? What do you do? Fire the future of the company essentially, precisely the people that are driving unit production costs down in order to save your senior crew? Fire young, vulnerable and also significantly local crew and by doing that actually driving unit costs up? It would be madness.

On the other hand, do you fire the senior crew on these elaborate contracts after they have invested their entire careers working for you and that have come in a time when not many wanted to be here? Not to mention the not so insignificant factor of experience that needs passing on. Also madness.

Wouldn’t it be an idea to make people redundant in a way that would still maintain their name on the list and their slot on their seat, should they wish to return when business picks up? (This may already be the case) Regardless of what happens with contracts. There is no fairness in an unfair time, but this could be a way forward? What about agreed unpaid leave as opposed to redundancy? Eventually pilots will be needed again, to throw the baby out with the bathwater doesn’t seem productive to me even though we can all see that something needs to be done to ensure survival on the long term.

[Slasher1]

Well that’s why redundancies suck don’t they? What do you do? Fire the future of the company essentially, precisely the people that are driving unit production costs down in order to save your senior crew? Fire young, vulnerable and also significantly local crew and by doing that actually driving unit costs up? It would be madness.

On the other hand, do you fire the senior crew on these elaborate contracts after they have invested their entire careers working for you and that have come in a time when not many wanted to be here? Not to mention the not so insignificant factor of experience that needs passing on. Also madness.

Wouldn’t it be an idea to make people redundant in a way that would still maintain their name on the list and their slot on their seat, should they wish to return when business picks up? (This may already be the case) Regardless of what happens with contracts. There is no fairness in an unfair time, but this could be a way forward? What about agreed unpaid leave as opposed to redundancy? Eventually pilots will be needed again, to throw the baby out with the bathwater doesn’t seem productive to me even though we can all see that something needs to be done to ensure survival on the long term.

There is no 'fair' way to do things and the concept of 'fairness' is wholly in the eyes of the beholder.

Seniority is a mainstay of most airline contracts simply because there isn't a clear cut better way to do things. Kind of a moot point in that CX's contract is clear on the matter and forced redundancies MUST be in reverse seniority order (and as such actionable in countries where there's real law). Seniority is a barrier towards jumping towards what would be ultimately a better career for the person (having to start all over) but is also a retention tool as much for the employer in that it keeps the person there after the company has made an investment in them. As such, seniority has a very high equivalent dollar value on any type of contract where it's enforceable.

SO

If there IS some form of 'better way' the only way to do it would be to recognize the dollar value OF the investment the person made in his seniority and justly compensate him (or her) for allowing the contract to be modified. Which is exactly the plan many US carriers have implemented so far (to be completely accurate it's more of a means of both company and union using procedures in an existing CBA to allow an individual to voluntarily bow out with an exit package or take partially paid leave with benefits). This also side-steps the 'stick' factor of attempting to abrogate these contracts which for the company would be extremely costly. So a meaningful deal must be negotiated; not a one-sided 'plan.'

There are all kinds of options (payment to retire early, partially paid but guaranteed leave with benefits, etc. -- these were the ones embraced by US carriers). Another plan could be partially paid leave with some form of future share in the company when things pick back up. The possibilities are endless but the thing to keep in mind is the carrier can't simply tear up the contract without it ultimately costing itself MORE than a reasonable deal.

[Pickuptruck]

That's not correct. US carriers are following their contracts.

It is true they've avoided layoffs (which will probably happen anyway) through the use of voluntary compensated leave schemes (to include early retirements with significant compensation). But when push comes to shove they will have to follow the contract and layoff by seniority. As will elements of CX stationed in the US. And this IS enforceable.
where to begin.....writing in Caps on pprune to make your point. I’m sure the company will be running scared. Not talking layoffs, talking shutting the base. Big difference.

[Slasher1]

where to begin.....writing in Caps on pprune to make your point. I’m sure the company will be running scared. Not talking layoffs, talking shutting the base. Big difference.

Not that big.

Shutting a base to evade fulfilling a contract which requires seniority based layoffs would not turn out well in some places for the company. Nor would it be particularly cheap with recall rights and the contractual benefits this entails (which are staked under the base contract not some arbitrary HKG one). Not only a can o' worms but an expensive can o' worms.

[mngmt mole]

The company has ascertained that the way around the legal necessity to lay off workers in seniority order is to actually make them voluntarily leave. They do that by closing the bases and then offering those pilots a return to HK on the "new HK" terms, which will also be much reduced. The gamble is that most will refuse to relocate to HK on what effectively would be a COS 18 (+/-) contract. Many senior pilots would not agree to such reduced terms, never mind actually relocating to HK as well. Unfortunately, the perfect storm is upon us. Seems we will find out the actual details in the next week or so. The package is already settled, only waiting to be released. Of course, the management could come to their senses and back away from triggering Armageddon, as the unintended consequences for the company will make the 49er debacle seem a minor inconvenience.

[drfaust]

Not that big.

Shutting a base to evade fulfilling a contract which requires seniority based layoffs would not turn out well in some places for the company. Nor would it be particularly cheap with recall rights and the contractual benefits this entails (which are staked under the base contract not some arbitrary HKG one). Not only a can o' worms but an expensive can o' worms.

I’m not sure why that would be? If they want to shut their overseas bases, they are free to shut them. The staff then gets an offer to come back to HKG, no?

[Slasher1]

I’m not sure why that would be? If they want to shut their overseas bases, they are free to shut them. The staff then gets an offer to come back to HKG, no?

Not if the intent was to evade the contractural terms by so doing (i.e. closing a base to evade furloughing in order of seniority mandated by an existing contract would almost certainly generate a claim and a quagmire--kind of like skipping town to avoid paying a bill). Yes; right of return on an expensive contract.

[Fly747]

That's not correct. US carriers are following their contracts.

It is true they've avoided layoffs (which will probably happen anyway) through the use of voluntary compensated leave schemes (to include early retirements with significant compensation). But when push comes to shove they will have to follow the contract and layoff by seniority. As will elements of CX stationed in the US. And this IS enforceable.

If CoS20 comes in with vastly different pay here in HKG the bases will have lost whatever benefit they may have to the company. I think all bases will be soon be gone.

[Slasher1]

If CoS20 comes in with vastly different pay here in HKG the bases will have lost whatever benefit they may have to the company. I think all bases will be soon be gone.

May well be. Guess we'll see.

[drfaust]

Not if the intent was to evade the contractural terms by so doing (i.e. closing a base to evade furloughing in order of seniority mandated by an existing contract would almost certainly generate a claim and a quagmire--kind of like skipping town to avoid paying a bill). Yes; right of return on an expensive contract.

Just playing devils advocate here but, why wouldn’t they get them back on an expensive contract if the intent is to make people redundant?

After they are back in HKG you offer the new and improved COS to everybody and from there you proceed with redundancies.

Getting back to HKG permanently on expat terms sounds exceedingly implausible to me. We will all see in the end, just seems to me this is about to get very ugly and very “unfair”, so to speak.

[MPPCAG]

I have it on good authority that the plan for Cx express involves getting rid of a scale / b scale / travel fund goodies at dragon by offering any ex dragon pilot to join Cx on cos18.
Would have to agree this will be the end of B scale for all Sabrina, not just KA.....

[BuzzBox]

After they are back in HKG you offer the new and improved COS to everybody and from there you proceed with redundancies.

OR, ram through the 'new and improved' COS in HKG, THEN close the bases. Given that COS08 would no longer exist, based pilots would have the choice of returning to HKG on the new COS or taking redundancy under their existing COS.

[JY9024]

Would have to agree this will be the end of B scale for all Sabrina, not just KA.....

So just curious Sabrina, how many A scale left at KA?

JY

[Shutterbug]

Too many people projecting wishful thinking and Western legal values that amount to nothing in HK. In addition, I find it laughable that there are somehow assumptions that HK courts still amount to anything, as if the developments in the recent political realm stand completely separate from the economy. They do not. The company viewed the 49ers Incident as a resounding success. The strategic objective was never those unfortunate 49 professionals. The objective was to cow the AOA membership into submission. The company succeeded beyond their wildest dreams. CC could never be effective because too many loose cannons using it for their own ends, undermining the objective. Should have gone for a walkout, it never happened. Ghosts of the 49ers.

There is a template for what comes next. It was deployed during SARS. It is brutally simple. The company will offer voluntary resignation/retirement/redundancy options. These will be the sweetheart deals. The company will consider this its benevolent gesture. After that, they will cut what they need. Since we can already project a dramatic decrease in demand, perhaps somewhere in line with 25-40% immediate reduction in flights at least for the next 12-24 months, that's the number of redundancies they will pursue. The company is well aware of the global picture and understands they can further eviscerate the ranks by rehiring pilots on direct entry options if there is a rebound. The company will focus on cutting from the top. In the accounting department, a pilot's a pilot's a pilot. Your umpteen years experience counts for nothing. Your safety record, your stellar employment history, awards... no one cares.

The company tipped its hand when they announced a recall of several cadet classes in February, and then reversed the decision a few days later. It's crystal clear what is going to happen next. Do yourselves a favor, stop projecting your wishes, apply what you learned along your long and hard-earned career to your own life circumstance and pretend your aircraft has just lost both engines and all power. Act accordingly. Stop wishful thinking. It's weak.

[Slasher1]

Just playing devils advocate here but, why wouldn’t they get them back on an expensive contract if the intent is to make people redundant?

After they are back in HKG you offer the new and improved COS to everybody and from there you proceed with redundancies.

Getting back to HKG permanently on expat terms sounds exceedingly implausible to me. We will all see in the end, just seems to me this is about to get very ugly and very “unfair”, so to speak.

Yup.....guess we'll see.

To be candid were I a manager (since they're such a small fraction of the operation) I'd probably avoid the potential quagmires altogether and leave the bases alone until things get shook out in HKG well downline; this would also give me some flexibility depending on how things relit in the airline world. And would give me downline some plausibility to avoid opening up a can of worms in the jurisdictions regarding contracts and motivations for closures. But I'm not and don't pretend to be so's haven't got a clue what'll happen one way or another.

I WOULD have some type of exit strategy or plan for whatever might transpire though.

[MPPCAG]

Shutterbug has it right I think. This will be 'survival of the cheapest'.

[Fly747]

I don’t think that politically they could shed people here and have others flying in from a base and operating out of HK when HKers have lost their job.

[Zapp_Brannigan]

Right.
And if nobody signs Pos18 or whatever they throw at us, they're going to crew the flights with the 500 guys who are already on it, 90% of whom are Second Officers.
Get a grip!

When I think that only 3 months ago, you were all complaining about the guys who "accepted ****ty deals" or "eroded the contract" by joining on POS18.
If you guys now accept any ****ty deal thrown at you because you're scared in the short term. THINK about the long term effects. You're going to have a ****ty contract for the remaining 5/10/15/20 years of your career!
​​​​

[Fly747]

They won’t care how many don’t take it. We’re not exactly flying a full schedule now. They can slowly build back up from a low base.

[Sue Ridgepipe]

Base closure would probably see more leave on the “exciting” deal as compared to having to relocate to HKG. But even then, they would still need to clear some from the bottom.
Given the current lack of employment options in the industry around the world I'm not sure closing the bases would see too many leave unless they take early retirement or pursue other career option.

If they did decide to cut from the bottom, would it be only expats? How would the immigration department view locals being chopped and expats keeping their job? Or does the seniority factor override this?

[Bo Wing]

Come on people..... I thought you are smart individuals!
We all know that they are going to attack the "heavy weights" in this company. Please don't fool yourselves to think that this airline will not be able to function without 500 less Captains. They will have a "trainer's deal" that will keep them training.
We have many many capable senior FO's that will hang around and be upgraded. They have about 6-12 months to get people trained up. Look at what they are doing now, SO/JFO/CAPT courses are on the go...... think people.

ARAPA is a thing of the past! All the cushy contracts in KA are gone! ARAPA will be gone! Bases closed down ( but welcome to HK )! Cos18 or job cuts!
If you don't like it or agree to it then here is 3 months! BYE BYE.

I assume that you assume, that all of those “many capable senior FO’s” that you speak of, will all pass their command courses? 😳 You’ve either not been here very long or you forget for whom you work! I thought you are smart.. Pot calling the kettle black, is my assumption 🤔

[Flex88]

Right.
And if nobody signs Pos18 or whatever they throw at us, they're going to crew the flights with the 500 guys who are already on it, 90% of whom are Second Officers.
Get a grip!

When I think that only 3 months ago, you were all complaining about the guys who "accepted ****ty deals" or "eroded the contract" by joining on POS18.
If you guys now accept any ****ty deal thrown at you because you're scared in the short term. THINK about the long term effects. You're going to have a ****ty contract for the remaining 5/10/15/20 years of your career!
​​​​

Anyone, previously or now, who signs COS18, more than likely tried to justify their actions with - I can do this and then move on to a better company, better lifestyle, better rosters etc. and life will be good.. That thread of justifying your actions is now officially dead, forever !!

Short term thinking will inevitably backfire.. You want proof, simply look at how CX is managed, who they choose as managers and the resultant 27 years of chaos.

[mngmt mole]

Flex. You just stated the main point that everyone tends to forget at their peril. The fact that this has been going on now for 27 years. Anyone who loses sight of that will inevitably make the wrong decisions. Unfortunately, I now fear that circumstances have provided the company with exactly the trigger they've long been hoping for to justify their all out final assault on the conditions and pay at CX.

[GTC58]

There will be no redundancies from the bottom.

Why get rid off the cheapest crew?

COS18 for all would be the great equalizer. 4 pay increments for Captains and 2 for FO. No ARAPA. All crew will be equally cheap. Bumping and conversion has to happen anyways with a fleet reduction of probably 30-40%. Wishful thinking that CX will cherry pick redundancies out of seniority might not happen. My guess, when the dust has settled the most junior CX pilot has a seniority number somewhere between 2200-2500.

A clear indication that redundancies will happen is that CX did not take the HKG government financial aid package which would have required CX to keep everyone employed until October.

And yes, closure of all bases could be a possibility.

[controlledrest]

Costs a lot to make non-POS18 redundant - have to pay out leave and then 6 months pay. In 6 months there will be enough flying to need most (not all) of the current pilots.

POS18 pilots cheap to make redundant with immediate cost savings. Most POS18 aircrew are SOs and JFOs. Not as useable as Relief FOs and Capts. If aircrew are make redundant it will be last on, first off.

CPA, Dragon, CX Express and Air HKG. 4 sets of staff and IT etc to run 4 operators. One set of staff and IT could do it all.

ARAPA would take months to unwind even if by force, so in the long term on the block but no quick cash flow fix. Announce a change of policy. ARAPA cuts in a years time (as per the policy) hoping to trigger resignations from non-POS18 pilots.

Company already paying for SIMs, acft and BTCs, so might as well continue with training as the extra cost is stuff all.

My punt: 20 - 30% pay cut for HKG aircrew for 4 - 5 months. Amalgamation of over lapping back office roles, so more Hello Kitty redundancies. Voluntary redundancy package.

[YellowFever777]

Expat housing is an enormous cost for the company. There are career FO's accross the airlines who are making more in housing alone per year than captains make in total in other airlines. No doubt management would love to cut it severely, that's the unfortunate reality.

[Zapp_Brannigan]

Funny to see junior pilots who are scared of losing their job transpose their wishful thinking into "facts" or "realities".

​​​The fact is nobody knows what is going to happen.
The fact is the benefits of trimming ARAPA would only bear fruit 12 months later.
The fact is that redundancies would benefit the cash position in the long term, not in the short term.
And who knows how long it will take for the demand to recover. Years? Perhaps. But the capacity could fall faster than the demand if other airlines keep on cutting their routes.
Remember SARS? Nobody predicted such a quick recovery.

The bases took a temporary 20% pay cut. If I had to speculate, I would guess that's what's coming.
I would happily take the hit to save YOUR job.
​​​​​​Keep on pissing us old farts off and maybe LIFO wouldn't look like such a bad idea.
​​​

[Bo Wing]

It's not my intention to get into a heated argument about the above. Let me just point out to you that the quality of training and checking requirements have drastically dropped world wide. Captains leave the very capable FO's to man the ship during the middle of the night through the ITCZ. If that does not show confidence then I don't know?

So yes I stand by my statement - we have very capable FO's that WILL pass their courses in the near future. Even if it means a few more sectors or a longer course. It will be a whole lot cheaper than keeping a guy on housing for 10 more years etc. So I believe that the ARAPA pilots will be given a 6-12 month notice, layoffs will not commence until the company have used up all its options. I hate to point out the obvious, but ARAPA is the biggest cost out of all benefits we as pilots are lucky to receive ( except our provident fund ) and its a POLICY.
The question is will the AOA protect the jobs of every pilot or rather the housing of a third of its pilots?

And as I said before we will see bases close, COS18 ( or a big pay cut for the next 6 months ), reduction in schooling allowance, provident fund cuts, more SLS etc

But look on the bright side we will most likely be the only airline that don't layoff crew and that will be a miracle in itself. EK and QATAR have slowly started this already.

Yes, we have some very capable FO’s, without question. The reason that commanders often leave those FO’s in charge through the ITCZ is not only as a result of their capabilities but due to fatigue mitigation, so they as commanders, have a semblance of alertness for the upcoming approach and landing. You’re right, training standards the world over, have dropped but there are still standards nevertheless and make no mistake, CX is still very picky about its command standard.

I don’t think for one minute that we all aren’t going to experience cuts and probably, deep cuts at that. I also concede that ARAPA is very much in the cross hairs (and has been for sometime).


What you fail to appreciate however, is that the company needs to stem the cash haemorrhage now, not several months down the line and what you propose will take that, several months, at least and by then, there may well be an uptick in the industry. Also, the “very capable senior FO’s” that are next in line for command upgrades, are most likely at the tail end of CoS99 or the beginning of CoS08 and therefore, all on ARAPA (LEP’s excluded unfortunately). So, your proposal is cost neutral at best. However, if the company were to scrap ARAPA altogether (and that’s a distinct possibility), letting 500 captains go and lose all that experience on the flight deck to only then train up FO’s to commanders, is illogical and I would bet, more costly than keeping everyone in their rank and just scrapping ARAPA.

The truth is, nobody knows what the company is going to do (maybe not even the managers themselves, right now) so, to try and second guess their decision, only sets you up for frustration and disappointment and upsets your colleagues in the process. Further, it is incumbent upon the HKAOA to fight for every pilot’s contract, irrespective of what contract they’re on and not rob Peter to pay Paul.

I am trying to look on the bright side and I sincerely hope we all get to keep our jobs with the minimum financial loss to ourselves and our families. Best of luck to us all.

[rustyoldtin]

Maybe closing Dragon with mass redundancies and integrating small percentage into other airlines on cheaper contracts would give the group the immediate cash savings it needs, then add onto the scrap of ARAPA with a short notice period would mean they are very much winning.. I guess it’s coming soon.. let’s see

[EddyTemple]

Aviation companies in Hong Kong have always had carte blanche to request work visas from the HK immigration department due to a lack of locally available talent, but times have changed. If you are a PR holder in Hong Kong and facing an uncertain future, your company cant let you go and then keep someone who is on a work visa sponsorship.

I have engaged the Hong Kong immigration department and they confirmed this emphatically.

Drop them an e-mail or a call they've been very helpful. The labour department will also help you in regards to your employment safety for permanent residents.

Hope this helps.

[squarecrow]

Somebody just posted this on the ME Forum,

https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/transport/article/3084079/coronavirus-cathay-pacific-could-get-cash-injection

[main_dog]

Accommodation and Rental Assistance to Expatriate Officers is an element of our contract, “[to] be adjusted to reflect market conditions in Hong Kong”, although the specifics are indeed detailed in ARAP policy.

As such they would have a legal fight on their hands if they simply slashed that one aspect of our contracts after over fifteen years of precedent. If it were that easy they would have done it a long time ago.

Cuts and pain are coming one way or another, whether it be more SLS, LIFO, or even people on COS99/08/ARAP simply being “invited“ to leave in favour of cheaper COS18 crew, but no point in trying to outdo each other with doomsday scenarios, many of which smack of schadenfreude.

Stop tearing your hair out and doing the accountants’ job for them, do your own job safely instead (if you’re lucky enough to still be working) and stay healthy, and when the time comes and they tell us what their plan is, deal with it as your personal circumstances allow.

[doolay]

I wonder if they'll use that 'cash injection' for more Base Training in Macau?

[hyg]

Maybe closing Dragon with mass redundancies and integrating small percentage into other airlines on cheaper contracts would give the group the immediate cash savings it needs, then add onto the scrap of ARAPA with a short notice period would mean they are very much winning.. I guess it’s coming soon.. let’s see

Kinda feel sorry to the guys at Dragon to say this, but seriously, they are doing even less than the guys at Cathay at the moment, and with a number of cities in China shut down again according to mainland info, who knows when that China market will ever come back.... Shut down dragon, gives those guys a return package to HKE for DEC or DEFO at CX in the future at cos 18 or 20/21/22 when the market needs them... that would stop the some cash hemorrhaging right away....

[Oasis]

Everyone is trolling everyone, no one can just bloody well sit on their hands.

Let’s just hope the group makes the right decision and no one’s career is permanently damaged at the end of this.

This too shall pass..

[Slasher1]

The really ironic thing is not that long ago several folks completely sold their integrity to kowtow to the Bejing ChiComms in order to preserve overflight of China and appease the CAAC. (Very notably several individuals did not and my hat's off to them).

And now this happens.

Just goes to show if you make the right decision at the time -- one which preserves your self-respect, morals, and integrity -- you're never wrong. Some folks put too high a value on money and stuff and later find out they were chasing the wrong thing and wasted a significant fraction of their life. Who you are and what you do isn't defined by some number in some account somewhere.

[AllWobbly]

Kinda feel sorry to the guys at Dragon to say this, but seriously, they are doing even less than the guys at Cathay at the moment, and with a number of cities in China shut down again according to mainland info, who knows when that China market will ever come back.... Shut down dragon, gives those guys a return package to HKE for DEC or DEFO at CX in the future at cos 18 or 20/21/22 when the market needs them... that would stop the some cash hemorrhaging right away....

You really think we are doing anything significant except for the freighter guys? I kind of feel sorry for the pax fleets full stop. HKE are doing no flying at all the moment..........

[Samsonite]

Some airlines like QF have different legal government policies which cater for Stand Down etc. Aus based CX crew took a big hit but better than a full Stand Down. These policies are suppose to be temporary and if going for long term then they go into full layoffs which is last in first out like almost every other airline in the world. Most other industry's have similar policy. So if these airline needs to restructure according to COS it will be last in first out and accept nothing else.

Before we get to that point when are we going to see redundancy in other departments? Every other airline chopped management positions and then went through the entire airline from top to bottom to cater for the new size of the airline. Need to see leadership from top to the bottom just because they once again think that pilots should be paid like bus drivers. Other airlines recognize that their pilots are front line staff and treat them accordingly and FAIR.

[controlledrest]

Before we get to that point when are we going to see redundancy in other departments? Every other airline chopped management positions and then went through the entire airline from top to bottom to cater for the new size of the airline. Need to see leadership from top to the bottom just because they once again think that pilots should be paid like bus drivers. Other airlines recognize that their pilots are front line staff and treat them accordingly and FAIR.

Cut costs: Merge the companies. Seperate branding if need be, but one DFO, one GMA, one GMO, deputies as required. One CMP to roster all including leave etc, one AVMED, one of all the back office functions which are currently duplicated. Want to cut ARAPA and education almost overnight? Follow Jepp recommendation (they are experts in efficiently - most hours for min cost) and base 1/2 your pilots.

[cxorcist]

Cut costs: Merge the companies. Seperate branding if need be, but one DFO, one GMA, one GMO, deputies as required. One CMP to roster all including leave etc, one AVMED, one of all the back office functions which are currently duplicated. Want to cut ARAPA and education almost overnight? Follow Jepp recommendation (they are experts in efficiently - most hours for min cost) and base 1/2 your pilots.
Well, that makes perfect sense! Surely CX won’t go with that plan.

[LongTimeInCX]

We've all seen in this pandemic, that there is no room for common sense, just take a look at government decisions from politicians in places like the USA and UK. Too little too late seems to have been their way of trying to deal with it.

Regarding PR employees versus simply being a HK ID card holder with residency on a work visa, that aspect may well be tested quite soon. Has legislation actually changed? If not, in 2008 this same aspect of LIFO versus government sentiment was looked at some 12 years ago, and whilst it was a government 'preference' at that time, our contractual LIFO trumped their preference of not making locals redundant. Ultimately, back then it didn't need to be tested.

I still think an incentivised early retirement scheme may be a great way to thin out some of the elder but more better remunerated pilots.

[cxorcist]

LTICX,

To be fair to the US and UK and other countries struggling, China and the WHO hid the nature of this virus for a long time. They exported it very intentionally by locking down domestic travel and keeping international open, all whilst not allowing the CDC and other western groups access. This naturally occurring corona virus MIGHT have been intentionally released from the Wuhan Institute of Virology where it was being studied. If not, it was an accidental release but intentionally allowed to spread globally. China is culpable, and everybody knows it. Those pretending otherwise are simply ignorant. This could be the start of a second Cold War. Certainly, an expansion of the recent trade war seems likely.

[bacou]

Kinda feel sorry to the guys at Dragon to say this, but seriously, they are doing even less than the guys at Cathay at the moment, and with a number of cities in China shut down again according to mainland info, who knows when that China market will ever come back.... Shut down dragon, gives those guys a return package to HKE for DEC or DEFO at CX in the future at cos 18 or 20/21/22 when the market needs them... that would stop the some cash hemorrhaging right away....

What about creating a cargo subsidiary with the 747 and furlough the passenger aircraft pilots ?
Wouldn't it save more money than cutting KA.?

Anyway longhaul is dead for years and 320/321 might be the future of aviation in many places.

[LongTimeInCX]

Very telling that the originators, (shhh, we know who!) of the virus are crapping on all butt hurt about western countries, especially US and Aust calling for an independent enquiry into the origins.
Surely if you know who was innocent and not complicit in its origin, cover up, or spread of the Wuhan virus, then wouldn't they too want an enquiry.
Very telling that their puerile outbursts consist of "it's not fair/it's not helping/we're not going to buy Australian beef anymore"
Maybe it was an alien induced virus after all.

[cxorcist]

What about creating a cargo subsidiary with the 747 and furlough the passenger aircraft pilots ?
Wouldn't it save more money than cutting KA.?

Anyway longhaul is dead for years and 320/321 might be the future of aviation in many places.
Where do you guys get this crap? We are all on a common seniority list, and that needs to be respected. Period. Full stop. End of story. Any other machinations by CX (or you dweebs imagining their slimy, seniority avoiding plots for them) needs to be met with the full disdain and resistance of the collective pilot group.

CoS18 pilots and many more above them need to accept that you can and should be made redundant / furloughed. I’m not taking ANY concessions to keep you on the payroll. It’s not my job to do that. I have fought too hard for too long to have a decent career to take one in the chops so some almost, baby pilot can have a job flying widebodies.

Trust me, you will feel the same way when you are decently far up a seniority list listening to the whiny brats at the bottom talk about how the airline needs to get rid of you because you’re too expensive and your experience doesn’t count for much.

[doolay]

Where do you guys get this crap? We are all on a common seniority list, and that needs to be respected. Period. Full stop. End of story. Any other machinations by CX (or you dweebs imagining their slimy, seniority avoiding plots for them) needs to be met with the full disdain and resistance of the collective pilot group.

CoS18 pilots and many more above them need to accept that you can and should be made redundant / furloughed. I’m not taking ANY concessions to keep you on the payroll. It’s not my job to do that. I have fought too hard for too long to have a decent career to take one in the chops so some almost, baby pilot can have a job flying widebodies.

Trust me, you will feel the same way when you are decently far up a seniority list listening to the whiny brats at the bottom talk about how the airline needs to get rid of you because you’re too expensive and your experience doesn’t count for much.


+1
Last in First out baby.

[hyg]

What about creating a cargo subsidiary with the 747 and furlough the passenger aircraft pilots ?
Wouldn't it save more money than cutting KA.?

Anyway longhaul is dead for years and 320/321 might be the future of aviation in many places.

why not both?

[wongsuzie]

If you are trying to cut costs why keep the expensive staff?.

They don't care how smooth the grey beards land the plane, to the bean counters a pilot is a pilot is a pilot,

[LongTimeInCX]

If you are trying to cut costs why keep the expensive staff?.

They don't care......,
Yes.......they don't care - until they do!
When due to dilution of, or loss of, large amounts of experienced talent, that there's a headline making accident concurrent with horrendous loss of life.

So if you think keeping the expensive staff is costing a lot, then try having an accident.

Those same expensive staff have often been the focal point of negating potential incidents that only avoided being the headline news by their experience and ability in ensuring aircraft and bodies were not reverting to much smaller parts.

[YellowFever777]

Where do you guys get this crap? We are all on a common seniority list, and that needs to be respected. Period. Full stop. End of story. Any other machinations by CX (or you dweebs imagining their slimy, seniority avoiding plots for them) needs to be met with the full disdain and resistance of the collective pilot group.

CoS18 pilots and many more above them need to accept that you can and should be made redundant / furloughed. I’m not taking ANY concessions to keep you on the payroll. It’s not my job to do that. I have fought too hard for too long to have a decent career to take one in the chops so some almost, baby pilot can have a job flying widebodies.

Trust me, you will feel the same way when you are decently far up a seniority list listening to the whiny brats at the bottom talk about how the airline needs to get rid of you because you’re too expensive and your experience doesn’t count for much.

The problem is that everyone is looking out for themselves. Collective action by a divided pilot group is unrealistic when it's a case of senior pilots not being willing to make temporary concessions while expecting junior pilots to face redundancies. Turkey's voting for Christmas comes to mind. Self preservation is the reason the unions are so ineffective and looked upon with disdain by management. Yes seniority should be respected but tell that to someone with a young family. I'm just playing devils advocate here.

The company has us all by the balls, the industry is dead and most of the airline is grounded. We have no leverage and will have to take whatever they dish out on the chin.

[wongsuzie]

Airline business have already calculated the risk of accident and have factored that in with appropriate hedges/liability protection.They have decided the risk is worth the reward.

The premium to hire Chuck Yeager versus average Nigel is not worth it.

[JMock]

Chuck Yeager wouldn’t have worked for the Swires anywayOver the last few weeks, he’s been responding to all manner of questions posed to him on Twitter – and giving some extremely forthright answers.

One follower asked General Yeager, lionised in Tom Wolfe’s book The Right Stuff, why he appeared to have a negative attitude towards the British.

He responded: ‘Arrogant. Nasty to Americans when we were over there saving them.

‘Nasty when I visited them a few years ago - wanted a whole lot for nothing.’

[AllWobbly]

Chuck Yeager wouldn’t have worked for the Swires anywayOver the last few weeks, he’s been responding to all manner of questions posed to him on Twitter – and giving some extremely forthright answers.

One follower asked General Yeager, lionised in Tom Wolfe’s book The Right Stuff, why he appeared to have a negative attitude towards the British.

He responded: ‘Arrogant. Nasty to Americans when we were over there saving them.

‘Nasty when I visited them a few years ago - wanted a whole lot for nothing.’


Read Robin Olds book he was of a different opinion. Yeager's biography doesn't paint him as a particularly nice character.

[Will IB Fayed]

I think redundancies and LIFO is about as likely as getting the Chinese to admit they created the virus (not that I think they did). It aint going to happen. No way the company will lose POS18 kids to retain 30yr, ex-A-scale, non-sls taking Captain living in a serviced apartment for $105,000HKD/month. Argue the legalities of your COS all you like. It Will not happen.

[cxorcist]

Read Robin Olds book he was of a different opinion. Yeager's biography doesn't paint him as a particularly nice character.
I have met Chuck Yeager in person and seen him carry himself in a group of highly competent and talented test pilots (to include a pilot with two MiG kills). I can tell you definitively that he is in fact an a$$hole. That he only made one star general after his storybook career is quite indicting. That said, his accomplishments deserve our respect.

[cxorcist]

What world are you living in? oooooo that's correct a privileged one. A world where you clearly don't care about anyone but yourself. With your comments it would not surprise me that you on the GC! Always worrying about ME ME ME or an employee that has taken full advantage of the company ( max sick days etc ).

At no point will CX retrench anyone if they have not tried their best to cut costs where they can.

ARAPA - do you think that people getting 2 x salary of a SO ( just for housing ) will be allowed? Wishful thinking!
Bases - they will be recalled like they should be but I'm sure most of the guys will not want to come back without ARAPA!
Pay Cuts - for everyone!

So I do agree with you that LIFO is the way they will retrench guys and they will be recalled in seniority order.
BUT that's after they make long long term changes first.

Good luck all i'm sure that our well informed and well communicating GC will tell us the GOOD news next Friday.
What world am I living in? Good question. Hopefully, one in which both sides honor a contract that was signed (to include LIFO), not a Chinese toilet paper contract only valid when things don’t get rough.

Privileged? Did you get that from your anthropology professor in uni? Was I privileged when I was picking sand out of my teeth, jumping in and out of chem gear on 40+ degree days, and having every imaginable size AAA shot at me? Was I privileged doing hard yards at FBOs working for flying time? Or how about flying seven legs a day for near minimum wage?

No, I don’t think so.

Privileged is when your tiger mommy fills out your CX application for you, and then you get to go on vacation to Adelaide to fly a DA-42 around the pattern. Then, poof! Magically you are qualified to fly big jets for CX while you move back in with mommy and play video games on all your time off. That’s privilege!

Did I miss something or did the Internet just raise the biggest generation of twats in the entire history of the world?

[Ecam321]

[QUOTE=cxorcist;10782458]What world am I living in? Good question. Hopefully, one in which both sides honor a contract that was signed (to include LIFO), not a Chinese toilet paper contract only valid when things don’t get rough.

Privileged? Did you get that from your anthropology professor in uni? Was I privileged when I was picking sand out of my teeth, jumping in and out of chem gear on 40+ degree days, and having every imaginable size AAA shot at me? Was I privileged doing hard yards at FBOs working for flying time? Or how about flying seven legs a day for near minimum wage?

No, I don’t think so.

Privileged is when your tiger mommy fills out your CX application for you, and then you get to go on vacation to Adelaide to fly a DA-42 around the pattern. Then, poof! Magically you are qualified to fly big jets for CX while you move back in with mommy and play video games on all your time off. That’s privilege!

Did I miss something or did the Internet just raise the biggest generation of twats in the entire history of the world?[/QUOTE

wow, this is a great spectators sport.

Looking forward to the come back.

[Slasher1]

I think redundancies and LIFO is about as likely as getting the Chinese to admit they created the virus (not that I think they did). It aint going to happen. No way the company will lose POS18 kids to retain 30yr, ex-A-scale, non-sls taking Captain living in a serviced apartment for $105,000HKD/month. Argue the legalities of your COS all you like. It Will not happen.

I don't doubt that's their intent, but the contract is clear. And that's what a contract is for.

The only sticking point might be one of enforceability. There are jurisdictions where the provision is completely enforceable -- to the point of both grievance and court if violated -- and in some of these the company winds up paying for a large chunk of the process. But it's not esoteric BS; it's about as clear cut as it gets (and you can't close down an operation to evade your legitimate contractural responsibilities--not only is it illegal but you are usually found out and all of the inter-office comms get subpoenaed). And there are jurisdictions where enforcing it might be dodgy.

The company could avoid this by voluntary separations at the upper ends but will have to pay for it. Effectively paying for seniority invested and the contract they agreed. At the end of the day this might be a wise business decision and cheaper all around for everyone. What would NOT be wise is an attempt to end-run the contract and shenanigans because no matter who or what you are this tends to come back at a person.

[CodyBlade]

Privileged is when your tiger mommy fills out your CX application for you, and then you get to go on vacation to Adelaide to fly a DA-42 around the pattern. Then, poof! Magically you are qualified to fly big jets for CX while you move back in with mommy and play video games on all your time off. That’s privilege!

I once asked [as a conversation starter] a newly minted 2 bar how many solo hours you have?

The ans was: zero

[cxorcist]

I don't doubt that's their intent, but the contract is clear. And that's what a contract is for.

The only sticking point might be one of enforceability. There are jurisdictions where the provision is completely enforceable -- to the point of both grievance and court if violated -- and in some of these the company winds up paying for a large chunk of the process. But it's not esoteric BS; it's about as clear cut as it gets (and you can't close down an operation to evade your legitimate contractural responsibilities--not only is it illegal but you are usually found out and all of the inter-office comms get subpoenaed). And there are jurisdictions where enforcing it might be dodgy.

The company could avoid this by voluntary separations at the upper ends but will have to pay for it. Effectively paying for seniority invested and the contract they agreed. At the end of the day this might be a wise business decision and cheaper all around for everyone. What would NOT be wise is an attempt to end-run the contract and shenanigans because no matter who or what you are this tends to come back at a person.
At least somebody gets it... No doubt this isn’t his first time around the pattern.

[cxorcist]

[QUOTE=cxorcist;10782458]What world am I living in? Good question. Hopefully, one in which both sides honor a contract that was signed (to include LIFO), not a Chinese toilet paper contract only valid when things don’t get rough.

Privileged? Did you get that from your anthropology professor in uni? Was I privileged when I was picking sand out of my teeth, jumping in and out of chem gear on 40+ degree days, and having every imaginable size AAA shot at me? Was I privileged doing hard yards at FBOs working for flying time? Or how about flying seven legs a day for near minimum wage?

No, I don’t think so.

Privileged is when your tiger mommy fills out your CX application for you, and then you get to go on vacation to Adelaide to fly a DA-42 around the pattern. Then, poof! Magically you are qualified to fly big jets for CX while you move back in with mommy and play video games on all your time off. That’s privilege!

Did I miss something or did the Internet just raise the biggest generation of twats in the entire history of the world?[/QUOTE

wow, this is a great spectators sport.

Looking forward to the come back.
While I appreciate your enthusiasm, it’s not a spectator sport. It’s a rather sad indictment of society today. The Western world is losing, not to the Chinese or other brutal dictatorships, but to itself as a self-defeating snowflake-ism takes deep root within democracies. This is what happens when academia, the media, and unelected bureaucrats get to define societal norms.

[Ecam321]

[QUOTE=Ecam321;10782461]
While I appreciate your enthusiasm, it’s not a spectator sport. It’s a rather sad indictment of society today. The Western world is losing, not to the Chinese or other brutal dictatorships, but to itself as a self-defeating snowflake-ism takes deep root within democracies. This is what happens when academia, the media, and unelected bureaucrats get to define societal norms.

Actually I was referring too the absolute disintegration between your ranks as being a spectators sport.

I have worked for 5 airlines in a 25 year career and never have I seen such a disconnect between the senior and junior pilots. It’s sad you guys really hate each other and wish each other ill. Its entertaining too read your posts but sad in the big scheme of things.

I’m sure your an awesome aviator but you are not the saviour of aviation, the industry would function quite happily with out you.

These snowflakes you refer too are the future of aviation, you are the past, like it or not.

[Flex88]

[QUOTE=cxorcist;10782501]

Actually I was referring too the absolute disintegration between your ranks as being a spectators sport.

I have worked for 5 airlines in a 25 year career and never have I seen such a disconnect between the senior and junior pilots. It’s sad you guys really hate each other and wish each other ill. Its entertaining too read your posts but sad in the big scheme of things.

I’m sure your an awesome aviator but you are not the saviour of aviation, the industry would function quite happily with out you.

These snowflakes you refer too are the future of aviation, you are the past, like it or not.

Hand off a career of hard work and dedication to a system hell bent on Dumbing Down the professional ranks till they fit into that nice little slot on a Directors spreadsheet.. Should the previous generation simply walk away quietly as they are continuously derided by a self serving management structure who stupidly expect apathy, OR, perhaps out of concern make some noise about ex barista snowflakes shovelled into a "job" by daddy or an incompetent and naive "People" department ?? Looks like we're going to find out !!

Too late for #CXit

[doolay]

This is what happens when academia, the media, and unelected bureaucrats get to define societal norms.

Also a result of the, 'even if you come last, you get a trophy' world we live in today.

A generation with an enormous sense of entitlement.

[Flex88]

15th

Delta announced that ALL of its 777 fleet + MD80s to be retired immediately.. That plus by end of the Government business assistance programs (~ August) it will have a SURPLUS of approx 7000 pilots. AA has hinted at 4800 !!!!
Passengers passing through US airports pre virus, 2.28 MILLION per DAY ! Now, 94k with no prospects of much improvement for 2 > 3 years.

Do the math...

[mngmt mole]

Usual proforma being followed: first release a very downbeat article in the SCMP (....$4.5B loss in the first 4 months of the year :eek:), then quickly follow up with the unfortunate news that they need to make drastic cuts to preserve the airline (with no mention of there being any snap backs when the situation improves, of course). Been there, done that too many times over the past 30 years.

[cxorcist]

15th

Delta announced that ALL of its 777 fleet + MD80s to be retired immediately.. That plus by end of the Government business assistance programs (~ August) it will have a SURPLUS of approx 7000 pilots. AA has hinted at 4800 !!!!
Passengers passing through US airports pre virus, 2.28 MILLION per DAY ! Now, 94k with no prospects of much improvement for 2 > 3 years.

Do the math...
Uh... what are we supposed to do with this “math”? Not being a smart ass, but what precisely does 20k+ furloughed pilots in the US have to do with CX? I get that things are bad, really bad. So what? LIFO! If that means CX only needs 1000 pilots, then I guess my job will be in jeopardy. So be it!

[Flex88]

Uh... what are we supposed to do with this “math”? Not being a smart ass, but what precisely does 20k+ furloughed pilots in the US have to do with CX? I get that things are bad, really bad. So what? LIFO! If that means CX only needs 1000 pilots, then I guess my job will be in jeopardy. So be it!

Just a heads up so some can make plans CXORCIST.. But then if you want to come off as the guy with the biggest dick at CX, "so be it"

[doolay]

COS18 Rev1........... the old version has been very silently amended. :ok:

So basically, the 500 COS18 guys, the most junior in the Company, won't be made redundant.

[Backupnav]

this company does not lack imagination when it comes to screwing up their staff. Absolutely disgusting.

[Zapp_Brannigan]

More likely, they just lost the protection of LIFO.
Expect the senior guys (>55 years old captains) on POS18 to be screwed.

The other COS still retain the LIFO clause so can't be messed with.

[SabrinaSenior]

More likely, they just lost the protection of LIFO.
Expect the senior guys (>55 years old captains) on POS18 to be screwed.

The other COS still retain the LIFO clause so can't be messed with.


it means they don’t get 6 months redundancy payment. Cheaper to make them redundant.

[drfaust]

What if you issue a fire all and sign COS18? If redundancies now have to be made, your dearly earned number on the list is now worth nothing.

The reason I say that is because amendments on COS18 don’t affect anyone else except the few guys that are on it at the bottom, and it is clear the company is not interested in retrenching people on that contract.

[wongsuzie]

The 500 COS18 are the Co's. Future and cheaper.. Why get rid?

[Zapp_Brannigan]

What if you issue a fire all and sign COS18? If redundancies now have to be made, your dearly earned number on the list is now worth nothing.

The reason I say that is because amendments on COS18 don’t affect anyone else except the few guys that are on it at the bottom, and it is clear the company is not interested in retrenching people on that contract.

One more reason to not sign anything.
If they fire everyone to only cherry pick who they want back, that's cleary a circumvention of your contract. They can expect a long legal battle.

Don't forget we have more than second officers on cos18.
All the recent and future extendees are / will be on it.
​​​​​​They are happy with them on cos18... Until they are not.

[doolay]

Disappointing that this was surruptitiously done on a weekend.

[doolay]

The 500 COS18 are the Co's. Future and cheaper.. Why get rid?

Because there are 1000's of guys that have served CX loyally for a much longer time providing safe, reliable and efficient service to their employer.

[Zapp_Brannigan]

Well, according to a friend of mine in management, what they don't want is to get rid of any 747 pilot.

Make what you want from that...

[drfaust]

If COS18 is forced on everyone via a sign or be fired, people can choose to not sign it and take their statutory redundancy.

If you do sign it, you will no longer enjoy LIFO protection based on seniority/redundancy lists. That being said the monetary incentive disappears for firing the senior and experienced, so those guys would very likely keep their employment.

So technically, for the company, it can be done. It would just require very very bold actions on their part. The crap part is we would all either end up unemployed or on a much worse contract, the good part is more people could remain employed.

Am I missing something?

[Zapp_Brannigan]

Yes, what you are missing is that if you don't feel coercised into signing a new contract, they can't make you redundant unless they've made all pilots junior to you redundant.

But if you want to volunteer to sign pos18, be my guest, ask your chief pilot. I am sure your efforts will be appreciated and well rewarded.

[Dilbert68]

Disappointing that this was surruptitiously done on a weekend.

What exactly did they do? I can't even see COS 18 on crew direct as I am not on that contract...

[Slasher1]

Yup. Exactly, Zapp. And the other thing is that the company has contracts in jurisdictions where it cannot be easily modified (certainly not without the consent of the contractees). Seniority is the most clear cut thing in the contract and it's literally in black and white. So in some of those areas it requires layoff in reverse seniority order with definitive pay protection for those laid off in any case according to their contract. And those contracts are enforceable through the grievance process and/or court.

And it's not like the company could shut the base with the intent to dodge this responsibility on an existing contract. If this scenario occurred it almost certainly would go to court and relevant inter-company comms subpoenaed. Kind of like defrauding the residents of a town and then skipping town (with some type of store still in that town and a business in other towns). The officials would go after your store in that town and you certainly couldn't do business there anymore--and may well be able to attach assets from other towns to the debt.

In fact, given that the company has been paying taxes in the US for a degree of work performed there even for HKG based pilots, this might be one avenue for even those aggrieved there to pursue relief.

Like I said the contract is clear. If they want to furlough out of seniority they will have to pay those with seniority to allow this to happen (and the only real way to do it on some of the collective agreements would be to pay those individuals what they believed to be a reasonable sum to voluntarily leave or take a temporary hiatus). Or they will go to arbitration/court and lose anyway.

[drfaust]

Well the question isn’t really about me and I am most definitely not jumping to sign away anything. It was a genuine question: if they give everyone notice, and then offer COS18, what exactly is it we could do about it? I’m also talking about HKG here because I don’t know how anything works at the bases.

If the alternative to signing is taking redundancy they could well still follow the LIFO principle in the contracts. The person on the list before you that signs disappears from that list, if they don’t sign they also disappear from the list because of being made redundant, so when your number is up they are not firing out of seniority. That’s what I meant and it’s a genuine question.

That would mean that someone junior would voluntarily take redundancy so that someone senior could remain on their contract as opposed to signing COS18 and remaining employed. It is a highly undesirable scenario, but it seems it would be the only legal way to circumvent redundancies outside of seniority.

Is there anything that can actually prevent this from happening?

[DessertRat]

What exactly did they do? I can't even see COS 18 on crew direct as I am not on that contract...

yes you can - it’s on Crew Direct under Flight Crew People Services. But I’ll summarise for you:

yesterday they sneaked in a new version of COS18 eff 16/5/20. A couple of minor tweaks but the REALLY interesting bit is that there is no redundancy clause in the new version, whereas it warranted an entire section in the previous version...

[Slasher1]

Well the question isn’t really about me and I am most definitely not jumping to sign away anything. It was a genuine question: if they give everyone notice, and then offer COS18, what exactly is it we could do about it? I’m also talking about HKG here because I don’t know how anything works at the bases.

If the alternative to signing is taking redundancy they could well still follow the LIFO principle in the contracts. The person on the list before you that signs disappears from that list, if they don’t sign they also disappear from the list because of being made redundant, so when your number is up they are not firing out of seniority. That’s what I meant and it’s a genuine question.

That would mean that someone junior would voluntarily take redundancy so that someone senior could remain on their contract as opposed to signing COS18 and remaining employed. It is a highly undesirable scenario, but it seems it would be the only legal way to circumvent redundancies outside of seniority.

Is there anything that can actually prevent this from happening?

Problem would be the first time they involuntarily made someone redundant of greater seniority while retaining someone of lesser they've violated the contract. Could they attempt to terminate ALL contracts in HKG ? Meh..... what they are doing is in practice trying to evade a legitimate and binding contract and that'd be up to the courts in HKG.

Now one thing that might be able to help is if by doing things that way in HKG it adversely affected someone on a base in some way (at least in a forum where the contract is actionable under law). And they could show that the way HKG was doing things violated the redundancy provision of their CA/EA/CBA and had harmed them with a future contract or upgrade opportunity in some way (for example if HKG terminated the contract in HKG, forced everyone onto POS18 or whatever, then shut the base and forced returnees onto POS18 you could certainly demonstrate that the entire shebang was deliberately done to evade the redundancy provisions of the original EA/CA/CBA on the base and take it for legal action in the based country).

Considering the costs if I were the company I'd make some sort of very attractive voluntary option to stay out of the quagmire. And/Or follow the contract exactly as written and furlough (with stipulated pay protection) as it's delineated in reverse seniority order. But I ain't them.

[mngmt mole]

Slasher. One thing I can certainly dissuade you of is the idea they will be offering an "attractive" redundancy package. Not going to happen.

[Flex88]

yes you can - it’s on Crew Direct under Flight Crew People Services. But I’ll summarise for you:

yesterday they sneaked in a new version of COS18 eff 16/5/20. A couple of minor tweaks but the REALLY interesting bit is that there is no redundancy clause in the new version, whereas it warranted an entire section in the previous version...

Then I would expect that the HKAOA would have copies of the previous edition (dated previous to 16/5/20) and the newly minted version would then only apply to those hired "after" the latest amendment.. Copies of "previous" version should of course be forwarded to AOA AND CX legal council for safe keeping...

[AQIS Boigu]

Absolutely

During the SYD base mess the guys taking VR only got 6 months.


Slasher. One thing I can certainly dissuade you of is the idea they will be offering an "attractive" redundancy package. Not going to happen.

[Kitsune]

I’m sure that you can use your extended furloughs to spare a thought for Barnaby and Merlin Swire who, despite losing £280 million last year, still managed to rise from 27th to (25th in the Sunday Times Rich List. Their net worth declined to a paltry £4,800,000,000....😑

[Oasis]

Poor guys, maybe we could start a crowd fund?

a Rolls Royce oil change doesn’t come cheap..

[ChrissyPrezzie]

Speaking of which, why would they still allow the low experience guy entering the workforce without paying anything upfront? As far as I know, many airlines do require a certain down payment from their perspective cadets and then reimburse them through salary once they start flying with them. Isn’t it another way to save cost?

[Oasis]

No it doesn’t, rudderless ship it is.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Course it does. They are on COS18, Dah.

[doolay]

It could be a good thing for us. Be hard to justify making anyone redundant when they still have kids in the training pipeline.

[cxorcist]

It could be a good thing for us. Be hard to justify making anyone redundant when they still have kids in the training pipeline.
Remember when they weren’t “kids” in the “training pipeline”? It wasn’t that long ago. What has happened to CX? So sad!

[Pickuptruck]

So in summary, the company should have laid off guys a while ago, the more the better. Aviation is starting up again so best they lay them off before they need them. BA and it’s competitors in Europe aren’t laying off based on seniority, they’re doing whatever they need or want to do and BALPA can’t stop it.

But here in Hong Kong, the average more senior ppruner thinks - follow seniority, lay-off lots so the company is saved and I keep my job but btw don’t downgrade me.

[DessertRat]

...But here in Hong Kong, the average more senior ppruner thinks - follow seniority, lay-off lots so the company is saved and I keep my job but btw don’t downgrade me.

Yes. Because that’s exactly how the contract is written.

[Pickuptruck]

Yes. Because that’s exactly how the contract is written.
And as BA has stated, the choice is layoff as per contract and the company goes bust, or layoff as per what's feasible for the company's survival. So you're keen to layoff as per the contract so the company goes to the wall and 29,000 lose their jobs. You can't layoff on the 747 fleet, how are people so dumb they can't see that. Likewise if the company needs top drag from the 777 fleet to the 747 inspire of the Airbus, they will.

You need to go read BA's reply to BALPA.......

[AQIS Boigu]

I believe the HM's Exchequer said that there won't be money for 1000+ conversion courses in order to honor seniority.

Fleet layoffs are the requirement for government money to arrive at BA and VS.

And as BA has stated, the choice is layoff as per contract and the company goes bust, or layoff as per what's feasible for the company's survival. So you're keen to layoff as per the contract so the company goes to the wall and 29,000 lose their jobs. You can't layoff on the 747 fleet, how are people so dumb they can't see that. Likewise if the company needs top drag from the 777 fleet to the 747 inspire of the Airbus, they will.

You need to go read BA's reply to BALPA.......

[doolay]

It doesn't matter if it's COVID, SARS, GFC, 9/11...a Contract is a Contract. Otherwise where do the excuses end?

...'oh it's a Tuesday, we certainly can't keep to the Contract obviously it being a Tuesday and all.'

It's these sort of events that we are experiencing right now that are the exact reason we have legally binding Contracts, so Companies can not do whatever they please.

[JMock]

the company will be hammering the force majeure scenario to wriggle out of contractual obligations like night follows day

[Zapp_Brannigan]

the company will be hammering the force majeure scenario to wriggle out of contractual obligations like night follows day

I feel sorry if your contract encloses a "force majeure" clause. Mine doesn't.

​​​​​​I actually agree that they can actually do what they want. But in the end, it's going to be up to a judge to decide if what they did was legal or not.

In the Paris base closure scenario, not only did it cost the company millions, it also cost two managers their job.

​​​​​​Hopefully, the remaining managers learned from their predecessors' mistakes.

[mngmt mole]

..."managers learning from their mistakes"....! You DO know which airline we work for don't you?? :rolleyes:

[Vtwin]

So in summary, the company should have laid off guys a while ago, the more the better. Aviation is starting up again so best they lay them off before they need them. BA and it’s competitors in Europe aren’t laying off based on seniority, they’re doing whatever they need or want to do and BALPA can’t stop it.

But here in Hong Kong, the average more senior ppruner thinks - follow seniority, lay-off lots so the company is saved and I keep my job but btw don’t downgrade me.

No, many senior ppruners may think; I've been in this industry a long time, taken my licks. Some have had several furloughs in previous lives. Some even ended up here at this god forsaken place over them. Maybe they are thinking; When is it my turn to benefit from hard earned seniority? Yeah I know, what selfishness huh?

And then you have the participation trophy entitled kid on the bottom of the list that thinks that life's setbacks don't somehow apply to him too. Well, maybe they won't and don't with the perverted system we have in place here and you will get off light, but as far as it concerns me, don't expect that I'll be picking up your tab too. I already paid my dues here and elsewhere. More than once. It is your turn now. Sadly.

Welcome to the industry.

[mngmt mole]

Very eloquently stated Vtwin. Sadly, the logic and poignancy of what you explain will be lost on the "entitled generation", and our cynical management will use that very same logic against us in the coming weeks. As William Wallace once cried....Freedom ! (and ultimately that means exiting this toxic place).

[Sam Ting Wong]

Wallace didn't cry for freedom on the internet and then compromised in real life.

[mngmt mole]

I'm sure you are without sin. Got it.

[Vtwin]

Just to be fair, many are understandably worried and reacting to a very frightening potential here. I thought the world revolved around me too when I faced my first furlough and I wasn't that reasonable about discussing it with some senior peers while having a young family, but I did survive.

Most all the DEFO's I've flown with have real heart with the job and some made sacrifices just to come to HKG for a better shot at life despite joining on COS18. With all the stigma those senior to them assign to it and sadly to some of them.

Before I throw a stone at them for degrading my "conditions," I'm reminded we all joined on and continue to accept degraded conditions to work here. Unless of course I was one of the first A-Scalers who fortunately got paid like a banker, which of course I am not.

Yeah freedom from CX servitude, just imagine...

[mngmt mole]

Well, it was only fair....we produced more than banker w*nkers. (and obviously still do, and always will).

[Vtwin]

I agree, people are still responsible for how they react under pressure. I won't be missing some here when I bolt and I'm certain that thought is likely mutual with them too. I don't think CX entirely produced them though, many came with the material to work with and end up in checking and checking and beyond. CX just refines the bad potential, steps out of the way and lets them wreak havoc as unsupervised playground bullies. Bullies trying to overcompensate for some really deep issues, like faulty wiring or horrible nurturing while the capable and well-adjusted suffer for it.

Fortunately, some like NH for example get so butthurt when they don't get their promotion they leave, but sadly become someone else's problem somewhere keeping an ample supply chain of broken nitwits "trained" and coming. Many here should have lost their CRM license and been banned from the industry entirely. Many.