A380 future

[Saintsman]

With all the talk of social isolation continuing in a post Covid-19 world and the suggestion that middle seats should be left vacant, does this mean that the A380 may have a better future?

The aircraft is large enough to allow for a little more spacing, whilst still allowing a significant load and therefore a lot more financially viable.

Do you think that those airlines who operate it may have an advantage?

[wiggy]

It obviously all depends on how much people will pay - I’m not sure how well the 380 would fare economically with only 60% of the seats occupied verses a similarly loaded big twin.

[Less Hair]

No airplane type will work economically with blocked seats. And empty seats won't stop Corona.

[Dufo]

What a load of crap. I remember results of doing swabs of security check trays, seat buckes and tray tables. All contained humongous amount of various, including fecal bacteria. We are all pigs and like Less Hair wrote, leaving empty seats will not stop bloody Corona.

[DaveReidUK]

What a load of crap. I remember results of doing swabs of security check trays, seat buckes and tray tables. All contained humongous amount of various, including fecal bacteria. We are all pigs and like Less Hair wrote, leaving empty seats will not stop bloody Corona.

True. But if you contract the virus on board a flight, you won't be catching it from the seatbelt or tray tables, but from the passengers you are sharing the cabin with.

[Momoe]

I'd like to think personal hygiene had improved somewhat but airline travel and reducing the R number are mutually incompatible. Aer Lingus flight BFS-LHR recently made the news, virtually full, essential travel?

[wiggy]

No airplane type will work economically with blocked seats. And empty seats won't stop Corona.


All true, but I suspect if the tales of the 380s operating costs vs. most big twin are true the 380 might cope less economically with blocked seats than other types, so to answer the OPs question, no I don't think the 380 will get a reprieve because of CV-19.

[krismiler]

There might be a niche for a few freighter conversions. With them being gradually dropped from pax flights, their second hand value is negligible which may make the cost of modifications worth doing as the airframes are still relatively young. A low purchase price, expensive modifications but a long service life afterwards might swing the balance for a few operators.

The airports that can accommodate A380s are limited but fuel is likely to remain cheap for a few years so a handful may soldier on in the freight role.

[Harry Wayfarers]

There might be a niche for a few freighter conversions. With them being gradually dropped from pax flights, their second hand value is negligible which may make the cost of modifications worth doing as the airframes are still relatively young. A low purchase price, expensive modifications but a long service life afterwards might swing the balance for a few operators.

The airports that can accommodate A380s are limited but fuel is likely to remain cheap for a few years so a handful may soldier on in the freight role.

I understood that the row between the ME oil states and Russia was settled a few weeks back and already prices have been rising.

A380 freighters? ... The B747 gets away with it having a nose opening, other freighters need a side cargo door, an A380 with a door on each level and is that upper floor strong enough to take heavy pallets rolling up and down it?

At least with reduced loads on such routes as DXB/SYD they'll be able to carry the baggage and not just the passengers!

[PAXboy]

It is very sad that the 380 came along too late to be a success. From the Pax perspective - it's a great machine. I have chosen it over numerous other long haul machines.

[DaveReidUK]

A380 freighters? ... The B747 gets away with it having a nose opening, other freighters need a side cargo door, an A380 with a door on each level and is that upper floor strong enough to take heavy pallets rolling up and down it?

A double-decker freighter ?

Well it wouldn't be the first. :O

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/640x426/640px_breguet_br_763_deux_ponts_f_basq_air_france_manteufel_ 1_c564d05ab8630dc23ecf701a8765c26142e9cfa7.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/00/Breguet_Br.763_Deux_Ponts%2C_F-BASQ%2C_Air_France_Manteufel-1.jpg/640px-Breguet_Br.763_Deux_Ponts%2C_F-BASQ%2C_Air_France_Manteufel-1.jpg

[InSeat19c]

True. But if you contract the virus on board a flight, you won't be catching it from the seatbelt or tray tables, but from the passengers you are sharing the cabin with.

Doesn't the fact that we're all breathing in the same recycled air through the aircon mean that spreading people out won't make much difference anyway?

[DaveReidUK]

Doesn't the fact that we're all breathing in the same recycled air through the aircon mean that spreading people out won't make much difference anyway?

You might think that; I couldn't possibly comment.

[rog747]

I gather it has long been lamented that A380 freighter conversions are a non-starter due to the design of the passenger aircraft. Plenty on this topic online to tell you why.

Airbus cancelled the A380F project when the orders from Fedex and UPS iirc were canned.

As for future passenger use by the Legacy airlines that bought them?
It will either be a very handy people mover, or they may go to the scrapyard.

[Hartington]

Would it be possible to have freight on the lower (passenger) deck and passengers on the upper?

[Jet II]

Would it be possible to have freight on the lower (passenger) deck and passengers on the upper?


Great Idea - we could also have gyms, shops and restaurants...;)

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/900x506/http_cdn_cnn_com_cnnnext_dam_assets_171212134914_3_md_12_gym _4b332460b66c0166bd3e19ab904fc0b8712a4642.jpg

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/900x506/http_cdn_cnn_com_cnnnext_dam_assets_171215110541_17121213481 2_10_airbus_a380_duty_free_shop_a700602680589ffeec6a9d0a99cf 71205dac5205.jpg


https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/900x506/http_cdn_cnn_com_cnnnext_dam_assets_171212134840_2_dining_on _the_dc_10_fc94dbe8e9b2e07c7f669db72b2e3a9a8ff2ec86.jpg

[tdracer]

Would it be possible to have freight on the lower (passenger) deck and passengers on the upper?
As I've posted numerous times, the A380 as it currently exists does not pencil out to be a good freighter - MZFW is too low, limiting the max payload to ~85 tons, where as the 777F is over 100 tons with much lower operating costs, and if you need to haul something big, 747-8F can carry over 130 tons.
Some sort of combi setup might be an option, but the regulations covering a combi have become far more restrictive (see Helderberg as to why), so certifying a new combi aircraft would very difficult - especially for a retrofit.
All the existing combi aircraft were certified over 20 years ago, before the regulations were tightened.

[PAXboy]

South African Airways Fl 295 Helderberg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_African_Airways_Flight_295)

November 1987. The 742 Combi had freight at the rear of the main deck as well as below. This accident was pretty much the end of large scale combis for long haul. I think that, now, there only short haul combies to remote areas like Alaska in 737s.

[Una Due Tfc]

South African Airways Fl 295 Helderberg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_African_Airways_Flight_295)

November 1987. The 742 Combi had freight at the rear of the main deck as well as below. This accident was pretty much the end of large scale combis for long haul. I think that, now, there only short haul combies to remote areas like Alaska in 737s.

Didn’t KLM have a pair of 747-400 Combis operating until a couple of months ago, one of which had it’s retirement delayed and is flying pure freight right now?

The current situation especially with PPE being shipped means the aircraft max out on volume rather than weight. I know Aer Lingus are filling the holds and cabins of their 230T and 242T A333s with between 15T and 18T of PPE on PEK-DUB flights, the extra 12T of lift doesn’t make the cabin or hold any bigger! As such the A380 might actually be very useful for that role. Mriya can haul 250T internally or 200T on the roof, I wonder what she is actually hauling when full of PPE.

[Less Hair]

The An-225 is not carrying any outside cargo Buran-style. Internal cargo only.

[Una Due Tfc]

The An-225 is not carrying any outside cargo Buran-style. Internal cargo only.

I know that I was just stating it’s capabilities.

[tdracer]

Didn’t KLM have a pair of 747-400 Combis operating until a couple of months ago, one of which had it’s retirement delayed and is flying pure freight right now?

The current situation especially with PPE being shipped means the aircraft max out on volume rather than weight. I know Aer Lingus are filling the holds and cabins of their 230T and 242T A333s with between 15T and 18T of PPE on PEK-DUB flights, the extra 12T of lift doesn’t make the cabin or hold any bigger! As such the A380 might actually be very useful for that role. Mriya can haul 250T internally or 200T on the roof, I wonder what she is actually hauling when full of PPE.

The 747-400 Combi's were certified before the regulations were changed. Once certified it remains certified even if the regulations change - new regulations are not retroactive. The only thing the feds can do once a configuration is certified is to issue an AD if they believe an unsafe condition exists.
EVA also operated 747-400 Combi's (I once flew on one between Seattle and Taiwan), although I don't know what eventually became of them...

[Harry Wayfarers]

Didn’t KLM have a pair of 747-400 Combis operating until a couple of months ago, one of which had it’s retirement delayed and is flying pure freight right now?

The current situation especially with PPE being shipped means the aircraft max out on volume rather than weight. I know Aer Lingus are filling the holds and cabins of their 230T and 242T A333s with between 15T and 18T of PPE on PEK-DUB flights, the extra 12T of lift doesn’t make the cabin or hold any bigger! As such the A380 might actually be very useful for that role. Mriya can haul 250T internally or 200T on the roof, I wonder what she is actually hauling when full of PPE.

One cannot designate a freighter aircraft for an occasional situation whereas just once in a while it can justify it's existence, the air cargo industry can be a dog-eat-dog business, i.e. the minimum price per ton or per cubic metre or whatever gets the job.

I've seen some maximum weights quoted here but not sure if they take in to account that once a pax aircraft is cannibalised in to a freighter all the uneccessary weights are stripped out of it allowing for increased payloads to be carried.

But I simply cannot imagine the A380 cutting it as an all-round freighter, perhaps better utilised parked-up outside a hotel or similar!


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[tdracer]

Maybe they have a future at water parks :

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/660x373/635814633430587864_waterpark_7be74983dd0412975ba96825eea469f adabc6aa2.jpg

I've seen some maximum weights quoted here but not sure if they take in to account that once a pax aircraft is cannibalised in to a freighter all the uneccessary weights are stripped out of it allowing for increased payloads to be carried.
While it's true that you save weight by getting rid of the passenger accomodations, most of that weight goes back in on a freighter for things like the cargo handling system, side cargo door, and stronger floors. So the max payload numbers don't change much.

[Una Due Tfc]

The 747-400 Combi's were certified before the regulations were changed. Once certified it remains certified even if the regulations change - new regulations are not retroactive. The only thing the feds can do once a configuration is certified is to issue an AD if they believe an unsafe condition exists.
EVA also operated 747-400 Combi's (I once flew on one between Seattle and Taiwan), although I don't know what eventually became of them...

As always, thank you for the info td. I hope retirement is treating you well.

[tdracer]

As always, thank you for the info td. I hope retirement is treating you well.
My pleasure :ok:
Oh, and retirement definitely doesn't suck :}

[PAXboy]

It occurs to me that, now the LHR 3rd Runway is not going to happen, LHR remains slot limited and the 380 will be a welcome part of the mix. (Yes, I do know that some route will go but there are more than enough carriers in the 'Waiting Room')