Admiral Woodward's attitude to the RAF intelligence product...?

[Jackonicko]

Author Rowland White tweeted earlier:

38 yrs ago today a Nimrod R1 took off from RAF Wyton on a long journey to San Felix Island in the South Pacific. Chilean territory. From there they flew intel gathering missions in support of the Task Force. More detail than ever before in #Harrier809 (https://twitter.com/hashtag/Harrier809?src=hashtag_click)

Roger Ford replied that:
Admiral Woodward didn't think much off the resulting RAF Intel.

With the COVID 19 outbreak it's not easy to simply get a copy of Woodward's book to see what Mr Ford meant. Can anyone enlighten me?

[Jackonicko]

He can't have been that unimpressed - according to Exocet Falklands (and the Official History), Admiral Woodward "asked for further flights over the three days prior to the landings at San Carlos on 21 May."

[NutLoose]

You want to read this months Aeroplane monthly with the PR Spit on the Cover, it covers the RAF Canberras to Chile and the efforts involved, including the RAF Hercs with Chilean markings added to avoid the attentions of the Russian satellites and the plan to fly the PR Canberras also to be wearing Chilean markings on one leg into Chile and land on a road at night at the max range to refuel from a prepositioned Herc.. The idea was to be training the Chilean military on their newly acquired Canberras by actually flying spying missions on Argentina.. I liked the bit that Pylons were added utilising a load of metal tubing found behind Wytons NAAFI!

[Jackonicko]

I have read, enjoyed and inwardly digested it, Nutty!
But that's a great shout - the Canberra tale is really interesting, and White tells it really well.
He concludes that the PR9s never got any further than Belize, before the mission was cancelled.
But Jon Snow swears blind that he (and his cameraman, a well known aircraft spotter) saw two PR9s at Punta Arenas during the war........

[CAEBr]

Can I ask - have you had a review copy? I've ordered this and been eagerly awaiting the publication, only to be told that publication has now been delayed to 15th October 2020. Would have been ideal lockdown material.

[Jackonicko]

Without wanting to make you sick with envy, I must confess that I do have a pre-publication proof copy.

It's a rattling good read - written in Rowland White's trademark page-turning 'thriller' style. He writes great books effortlessly, and manages to make his books commercially successful - it's enough to make you go green with envy!

[treadigraph]

It's a rattling good read - written in Rowland White's trademark page-turning 'thriller' style.

I'm reading "Into the Black" at the minute - a very good read!

[Jackonicko]

Ford tweeted that: "The RAF was interpreting Searchwater data. For example identifying a container ship as the Argentine carrier which by then was back in port. See Woodward 100 days."

Someone has already told him that he's got the wrong sort of Nimrod........

[ExAscoteer2]

There is no way a Searchwater equiped MR2 would have identified a comtainer vessel as a warship owing to the way the scope worked. R1 with Ecko 290 hmm, I'm not so sure.

[Jackonicko]

R1 had a weather radar and 51 were not doing maritime radar surveillance in Corporate. It's not what they did for a living......

[Radley]

If looking for an aircraft carrier it could have easily been mistaken for a container ship. Dependent on range scale, aspect and how the container ship was loaded, these all affected what the operator saw on his screen. Searchwater was good, but it did have limitations.

[Dan Winterland]

My Dad was one of the Air Intel Officers at Northwood during the war. He mentioned it was commendable how all three services interacted and in particular how Sandy Woodward listened to and took on board every piece of information available to him. Dad reckoned he was the right man in place for the job at the time.

[langleybaston]

Yes, and he was a breath of fresh air when he arrived in JHQ, RAFG c. 1991. Almost his first action was to get all the clocks in the RAF areas synchronised. He interviewed every Head of Branch in quick time. He asked me: what is your biggest problem that you think I can solve. And sorted it.
Sandy was like Marmite. I suspect that his detractors had felt the very sharp edge of his tongue, because he was brutal with incompetents.
Pity about the curtains.

[MG]

I shared a VC10 tanker with him on the way down to the ME in 92. As a passenger, he was distinctly unpleasant to the crew and unnecessarily antagonist. Marmite, yes, maybe.

anyway, I thought this thread was about Woodward, not Wilson.

[Archimedes]

It’s covered in the Nimrod Boys book. I think it’s is the section by Dick Straw. A crew reported spotting Type 42s, causing consternation in the Task Force. What had happened - and here I summarise, probably in terms which will have Nimrod crew thinking ‘eh?’ - was that a pair of South Korean/Taiwanese trawlers or factory ships turned out to have an almost identical return to a T42. Woodward grumbled that the T42s were known to be tied up alongside, and what were the RAF up to? (I imagine that his grumpiness might well have been fed by the CO of Hermes).

As the Nimrod crew pointed out, it might have been handy had this information been passed on to them before they took off, and they would then have been able to conclude that the contact was either a T42 with a warp drive or something else...

There is, somewhere in the files, a polite but grumpy note by Admiral Fieldhouse pointing out that the dissemination of information might be a bit better (although IIRC, this refers to the Chiefs having been waiting for imagery of Black Buck One for over a week).

[Marcantilan]

Remember also an aircraft carrier was also detected. This telegram shows some data about this contacts (first assumed as Argentinians but later evaluated from other countries). As a side note, the Brazilians answered this query, informing its own carrier was in port. And, finally, I think Moskva (the soviet aircraft carrier) entered the south atlantic some weeks later.

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1360x2000/carrier_fiasco_2__c319a9e9d2dd4933a623569fde283869e46eed6d.j pg

Regards to all!

[TEEEJ]

I have read, enjoyed and inwardly digested it, Nutty!
But that's a great shout - the Canberra tale is really interesting, and White tells it really well.
He concludes that the PR9s never got any further than Belize, before the mission was cancelled.
But Jon Snow swears blind that he (and his cameraman, a well known aircraft spotter) saw two PR9s at Punta Arenas during the war........

Could that simply be a case of poor aircraft recognition? The claim from the Duncan Campbell New Statesman article was that the sighting was at Santiago, Chile.

The same precautions were not, however, in force at Santiago airport in mid-May, where ITN reporter Jon Snow saw two Canberras in Chilean markings, amongst a group of military aircraft including heavy US Air Force transports.

New Statesman article at following link.

https://www.duncancampbell.org/PDF/the%20chilean%20connection.pdf

At distance and in amongst other aircraft I suspect that Chilean Air Force A-37 Dragonfly were mistaken for Canberras.

The combination of the tail/tail planes and the under wing stores/tip tanks could result in that mistake. The A-37 also has a pop up canopy. At distance it could be mistaken for a raised PR.9 canopy?

http://www.defensa.com/adjuntos/stories/noticias/2014/07/2.%20a-37b%20in%20fach%20colors%20j.montes.jpg

Links to Chilean Air Force A-37 pics.

https://www.airliners.net/photo/Chile-Air-Force/Cessna-A-37B-Dragonfly-318E/1643483/L

https://www.airliners.net/photo/Chile-Air-Force/Cessna-A-37B-Dragonfly-318E/1371106/L

Link to Chilean Air Force Canberra PR.9

https://www.airliners.net/photo/Chile-Air-Force/English-Electric-Canberra-PR9/327707/L

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cessna_A-37_Dragonfly

[ex-fast-jets]

Off thread - but to close Langley's comment......

I worked under Woodward in 82 on Hermes.

I worked under the "Sandy" that I think he refers to in RAFG 92 until he left in 93 and RAFG became 2 Gp.

Different characters in every way.

During my arrival interview at RAFG as a new Stn Cdr, the 1* of the day (great bloke who will not take much identifying) and who was directly in my link to the 2* (not great) and 3* (worse - Sandy) told me that if I treated his (Sandy's) visit to my Station as if it was a Royal Visit, then I would get it about right.

Great advice - and he was spot-on.

I like Marmite - but, Langley, your apparent admiration for the man is not held commonly.

Never mind the curtains - what about all the china from the Berlin house??

[Jackonicko]

Hi Teej,

In his own book, Snow says Punta Arenas, and that's what he told me a couple of weeks ago when I spoke to him on the phone.

He also saw the RAF roundels and fin flashes.

He knew what a Canberra looked like, and knew they had different noses - either like the Rhodesian ones, or like the South African aircraft. And his cameraman would NEVER have mistaken an A-37 for a Canberra PR9.

[NutLoose]

And then there were the high alt recon pictures of Stanley they tried to pass off as taken by a Harrier

https://www.militaryimages.net/media/stanley-airfield-falkland-islands.84666/

[Jackonicko]

Easy to get a vertical photo like that from an oblique F95 in the nose, just roll to exactly the right angle of bank, and....

........ ah, ok. I see what you mean!

[ex-fast-jets]

The vert to which you refer could very easily have been taken by a Harrier with a PFO F-95 (the SHAR was, I think a SFO F-95??) with the appropriate lens. Given the timing of the piccies after BLACK BUCK, I suspect most likely to have been taken by a SHAR. Simply fly over at the appropriate height, and wiggle a bit to get the required frame for a print. Simples!!

[langleybaston]

Off thread - but to close Langley's comment......

I worked under Woodward in 82 on Hermes.

I worked under the "Sandy" that I think he refers to in RAFG 92 until he left in 93 and RAFG became 2 Gp.

Different characters in every way.

During my arrival interview at RAFG as a new Stn Cdr, the 1* of the day (great bloke who will not take much identifying) and who was directly in my link to the 2* (not great) and 3* (worse - Sandy) told me that if I treated his (Sandy's) visit to my Station as if it was a Royal Visit, then I would get it about right.

Great advice - and he was spot-on.

I like Marmite - but, Langley, your apparent admiration for the man is not held commonly.

Never mind the curtains - what about all the china from the Berlin house??

In fairness I did not begin this digression but I will if I may run a little further with the ball. Regarding china, that in Air House was standard best RAF and I knew not of Berlin.
My perspective was as a civilian Head of Branch [Met.] in my last and best posting. Both SASOs I served were great blokes, albeit very different. I like a tight ship. Friday Air Staff briefings and monthly HoBs were much improved because slackness or incompetence was not tolerated. The church [St Boniface: I was RAF Churchwarden] was very well supported and the Mess lively.
What happened in RAF circles I knew not. I do know that the gentleman did not try to blag the gleaming vintage office barograph as he left. That was another senior officer [he did not succeed .....].
Enough from me on the subject, back perhaps to the good Admiral.

[Marcantilan]

NutLoose when the pics were taken (of course, after 1 May). I have the original diary of the AN/TPS-43 radar and I could check for any high flying contact.

Best regards!

[NutLoose]

I don’t know, the article I mentioned to you simply questioned the photos being taken by Harrier, judging by the damage no repair attempts have been made and why would you take it post war?

[Fortissimo]

Persisting slightly with the thread drift on 'difficult' seniors, I had a colleague some years ago who was in a unit support role at Rheindahlen around the time that all the china and glassware in Berlin mysteriously vaporised, a phenomenon apparently wholly unconnected with 3 Pantechnicons subsequently seen heading for the UK. He told me he kept 2 sets of files, one in the office and a duplicate at home because he had been warned that too much detail in his audit trail was likely to result in the files being 'lost' in transit (in the days when files were sent between offices with comments, notes of action etc. on the inside sheet).

[langleybaston]

The Rheindahlen RAF Mess silverware [or some of it] was auctioned by the members before the pongoes were suffered to join and found Churchill Mess. The tone immediately dropped, and some of the behaviour was intolerable. One problem was unsupervised and drunken teenagers. On one occasion [Christmas Draw? New year Black Tie?] the Mess staff civilians refused to clean the bogs next morning.
Back to the silverware: I have some very nice souvenirs, honestly acquired, of six marvellous years.
None of which has anything to do with the thread.

[Mogwi]

I don’t know, the article I mentioned to you simply questioned the photos being taken by Harrier, judging by the damage no repair attempts have been made and why would you take it post war?



As Bomber H has stated, the SHAR F95 was SFO and we had two lenses; the normal one for standard low-level phots and another with a longer focal length for high-level work. This was only rarely used, as the resolution of the 2 1/4" square wet negs using the standard lens was amazingly good.

As as a matter of course, we took vert shots of Stanley airfield (often on a daily basis) on our way to/from CAP at around 25,000'. These were passed to the Army Photographic Interpreter on Hermes for analysis, although I was also PI trained (don't ask!) and managed to find a few things that he missed! The best one was a target that he identified as "rows of penguins" near Fox Bay; they were, in fact, hundreds of 40gall barrels of fuel! Didn't half burn well after No1(F)'s first attack.

Mog

[Video Mixdown]

As Bomber H has stated, the SHAR F95 was SFO and we had two lenses; the normal one for standard low-level phots and another with a longer focal length for high-level work.

Mogwi
As a matter of interest, was all photo recce done with the internal F-95 camera, or did the RAF GR.3's ever carry/use the recce pod?

[steamchicken]

The best one was a target that he identified as "rows of penguins" near Fox Bay; they were, in fact, hundreds of 40gall barrels of fuel! Didn't half burn well after No1(F)'s first attack.

Mog

Leaded or unleaded penguins? :cool:

[meleagertoo]

Leaded or unleaded penguins? :cool:
Quickly converted into the former by all accounts!

[Tengah Type]

Did the good admiral have anything to say about the MRR sorties that the Victor K2 Tankers were flying from the 19th April, when the Task Force was less than halfway between ASI and FI? Before the Nimrods were AAR capable.

[Davef68]

Mogwi
As a matter of interest, was all photo recce done with the internal F-95 camera, or did the RAF GR.3's ever carry/use the recce pod?

There are photos of a GR3 on Hermes with the recce pod, and I think it's refered to in Jerry Pook's book, although it's been a while since I read it.

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/800x626/large_000000_f76ec00a8db3204ed36bf879dcb36fe5dac89b90.jpg

[esscee]

Never know, maybe the "good" admiral thought the Victors were only there for tanking.

[Union Jack]

Never know, maybe the "good" admiral thought the Victors were only there for tanking.
Which seems unlikely given that, as Flag Officer First Flotilla, he will have had the very worthwhile benefit of a Royal Air Force Staff Officer as a permanent member of his staff, long before General Galtieri flexed his muscles, to provide expert advice on this and many other important aspects of the air war.

Jack

[Jackonicko]

Since he seems to have had an entirely unrealistic expectation of what the Nimrod MR could and could not provide with Searchwater, one wonders whether the good admiral was getting that kind of advice, and, if he was, whether he was remotely capable of heeding or understanding it?

[Mogwi]

Mogwi
As a matter of interest, was all photo recce done with the internal F-95 camera, or did the RAF GR.3's ever carry/use the recce pod?

I believe that No1(F) might have brought recce pods aboard but they were not used by SHARs and I cannot remember their use by GR3s.

Mog

[farefield]

Did the good admiral have anything to say about the MRR sorties that the Victor K2 Tankers were flying from the 19th April, when the Task Force was less than halfway between ASI and FI? Before the Nimrods were AAR capable.
Dave, Sharkey was probably whinging about the waste of fuel!:ugh:

[SLXOwft]

I believe that No1(F) might have brought recce pods aboard but they were not used by SHARs and I cannot remember their use by GR3s.

Mog

Having just finished RAF Ground Attack: Falklands I can confirm that Jerry Pook flew at least one mission with the pod as did others. Unsurprisingly he wasn't a fan of it as it, as its design required increasing the already high risk of being shot down. Apparently as it was designed to be used at 420 kts and 250 feet "coverage was severely limited at heights below this". :ugh:

He was tasked to look for the land based Exocet launcher near Port Stanley:
Because of the poor coverage of the recce pod I had to spend a lot time flying along with one of the wings slightly raised, using opposite rudder to counteract the tendency to turn, ... the wretched cameras in the pod kept stopping ... (This was a pretty normal operating problem with our crummy recce pod) The issues meant next day "the Boss and Beech launched .,. for a repeat of the Exocet recce".

He also mentions the replacement, at his suggestion, of the 4 inch lenses in the GR3's F95 with 6 inch lenses taken from the recce pods for high-level work. The additional magnification "gave quite a bit more detail for the Photographic Interpreters to study".

[Dan Winterland]

Some Victors were fitted with F95s in the bomb aimers windows. A vertical one in the forward window and an oblique in the right window. The controls were in front of the RHS pilot seat. As to which aircraft, it depended if they still had the windows. If they were damaged, they were replaced by solid panels as there were no spares and no requirement for use, until the cameras were fitted.

[Tengah Type]

Dan

As I remember it the cameras were fitted in the centre and left hand side windows of the Bomb Aimers window. The Captain would be flying the aircraft so would position on the target he could see. As you say a lot of the Victors did not have glazed panels as they had been replaced with blanking plates (cheaper and lighter) when the glazed ones were u/s. Ground Crew scavenging parties were sent to the Fire Training sites at Manston and Catterick, and also the museum at Duxford, to retrieve useable glazed panels.

If were had to use them and could not get back to ASI, the brief was to blow open the cabin door and jettison the cameras. We would then divert to Rio " as the cabin door blew open while we were on an innocent Navex for training!"

If the Harriers thought it was too dangerous at 250ft at Warp speed, what chance would a Victor have had? Fortunately we never needed to try.