KLM resumes daily flights from Amsterdam to Madrid,Barcelona and Rome.

[jvr]

At the end of this week a flight a day will be made.
Passengers will have to bring and wear a mask.
good news!

[atakacs]

It's a start ! Wonder if they will fly full capacity

[ATC Watcher]

It's a start ! Wonder if they will fly full capacity
the first flights , probably yes some people need to move back , families, unaffected businesses, etc,, but with restaurants closed in all 3 cities, not to mention most public places like Museums , cinemas, bars, .the demand bit will dry up soon ... eating a sandwich bought in the local supermarket in your hotel room is not that attractive after a couple of days ..

[dirk85]

Having just received a monstrous bail out together with AF I guess making a profit or not is irrelevant. Like Alitalia, that never stopped flying, even in April, with many flights with only 3/4 passengers.

[the_stranger]

Having just received a monstrous bail out together with AF I guess making a profit or not is irrelevant. Like Alitalia, that never stopped flying, even in April, with many flights with only 3/4 passengers.
Klm still has not gotten anything, the government said they were willing to guarantee a loan, but specifics are still being discussies.
And it is a loan (from both government and banks) , not a gift or bailout. And that loan has to be paid back.

So yeah, profit is relevant, very relevant.

[Cat Techie]

Nobody is going to fly unless they have to, or got over catching the virus and know it is not going to touch them.

[FreemaninHK]

I am.

My friends are. Many are now planning next holidays. There is very little ‘fear’ in my cohort; mostly frustration at why 99.9% of us need to suffer social and economically for the welfare of the weakest 1%

[inOban]

There was a flight to Edinburgh today. Not sure when the next one is.

[Pistonprop]

FreemaninHK, I find your post highly offensive!

[atakacs]

the first flights , probably yes some people need to move back , families, unaffected businesses, etc,, but with restaurants closed in all 3 cities, not to mention most public places like Museums , cinemas, bars, .the demand bit will dry up soon ... eating a sandwich bought in the local supermarket in your hotel room is not that attractive after a couple of days ..
Ok, I meant: will they offer all seats of the aircraft for sale or lockdown 1 row in each aisle?

[Cat Techie]

I am.

My friends are. Many are now planning next holidays. There is very little ‘fear’ in my cohort; mostly frustration at why 99.9% of us need to suffer social and economically for the welfare of the weakest 1%

You had the virus then? I wager not. Your cohort need to know someone that has died from this. It is not 1% that suffer, it is a lot higher. You have not had the virus and you sound like a complete Richard Cranium. Stuff your holiday.

[Sallyann1234]

FreemaninHK, I find your post highly offensive!
And mathematically incorrect.

[Johnny F@rt Pants]

There is very little ‘fear’ in my cohort; mostly frustration at why 99.9% of us need to suffer social and economically for the welfare of the weakest 1%

What a nice attitude.

[nomorecatering]

I agree 100% with FreemaninHK. We have sacrificed 99% to save 1%. It's not palatable for some, but that is the reality. Please feel free to be offended.....i care not.

[DaveReidUK]

I agree 100% with FreemaninHK. We have sacrificed 99% to save 1%. It's not palatable for some, but that is the reality. Please feel free to be offended.....i care not.

If you really think that, in the absence of mitigation measures, only 1% of the population would suffer from the effects of coronoavirus, then I'm afraid you simply haven't been paying attention.

[Cat Techie]

I agree 100% with FreemaninHK. We have sacrificed 99% to save 1%. It's not palatable for some, but that is the reality. Please feel free to be offended.....i care not.
You haven't had the virus either then. Hopefully you will catch it. From my friends that have had to treat it, they say don't get it. It is a horrible way to die. You have any weakness in your biology, it will find you out. Reality, you views count for very little.

[ZFT]

I agree 100% with FreemaninHK. We have sacrificed 99% to save 1%. It's not palatable for some, but that is the reality. Please feel free to be offended.....i care not.

As one of the 1% (due combination of age and not an ideal immune system due chemo), I can appreciate this attitude.

I reside in an environment where there are now around 8M who have lost their means of support due to the situation and with little if any safety net they too find their sacrifice too much.

Personally I am very uneasy over some of the long term implications or the measures being taken. Traceing apps and the like scare the crap out of me yet the world seems to be meekly accepting this. Once here, these apps will be used by governments for other purposes post Covid-19

So is the medicine worse than the illness? Time will tell but FreemaninHK and other have the right to voice their disapproval surely?

[LGW Vulture]

If you really think that, in the absence of mitigation measures, only 1% of the population would suffer from the effects of coronoavirus, then I'm afraid you simply haven't been paying attention.

Sometime soon, some 99% are probably more likely to be affected by the coronavirus if the status quo continues. Thanks in the main, to those very mitigation measures.

However, back to the subject matter. I'm glad some carriers are starting to put their toe back in the water.

[FlightlessParrot]

I agree 100% with FreemaninHK. We have sacrificed 99% to save 1%. It's not palatable for some, but that is the reality. Please feel free to be offended.....i care not.
It might be 1% with mitigation measures, but it's more without, and if you just let the thing take its course, many more than 1% will end up in hospital (sometimes quite worthwhile people in the prime of life), often in intensive care, taking up beds which are not then available for the normal cases. And it's not just us old and expendables that it gets: why, even the PM of the UK (whom one would have thought to be pretty impervious to COVID-19, as to most things) ended up in intensive care. And if the virus is running unchecked, rather a lot of people are going to be cancelling holiday plans whatever governments say. Certainly it is necessary to balance public health against economic factors, but letting the virus rip to help solve the superannuation problem also has financial costs.

[FlightlessParrot]

So is the medicine worse than the illness? Time will tell but FreemaninHK and other have the right to voice their disapproval surely?

Of course everyone has a right to question the balance of measures adopted in specific countries. But when that opinion is factually (and arithmetically) mistaken, and expresses contempt and disregard for the more vulnerable, people have a right to express their abhorrence.

[Lake1952]

Even if the case fatality rate is proven to be as low as 1%, an appreciably high percentage of patients as high as 50-60% are quite miserable for as long as several weeks.

[Pinkman]

I used to have a dog that wasn’t scared of traffic.

[fox niner]

Back to subject:
klm was flying a minimal schedule consisting of about 85 intercontinental flights per week, and about 20 european flights per day. The euro flights are now being expanded.
Check out this list of automatically updated operating flights:
https://jdenuijl.com/flights/index.php?select=ALL&date=2020-05-05

[Guptar]

Australian government ministers are saying the international travel ban could last well into 2021.

There won't be an airline industry left.

[guy_incognito]

People really do seem to want to stick their fingers in their ears and not face the inconvenient truth, which is that the world economy has been destroyed to protect against a threat that causes at worst a mild illness in the vast majority of people. Most of us will get it at some point because strict control measures cannot be imposed indefinitely without a total breakdown of society. There is no scientific consensus that either effective treatment or an effective vaccine will be found. It is something that we are going to have to learn to live with, and we will have to accept that some of us will die from it. In the meantime, the direct and indirect impact of the lockdown measures imposed will be felt for generations to come.

[exfocx]

People really do seem to want to stick their fingers in their ears and not face the inconvenient truth, which is that the world economy has been destroyed to protect against a threat that causes at worst a mild illness in the vast majority of people. Most of us will get it at some point because strict control measures cannot be imposed indefinitely without a total breakdown of society. There is no scientific consensus that either effective treatment or an effective vaccine will be found. It is something that we are going to have to learn to live with, and we will have to accept that some of us will die from it. In the meantime, the direct and indirect impact of the lockdown measures imposed will be felt for generations to come.

The ones who are sticking their fingers in their ears are the likes of you! It isn't just those over 60 who are more susceptible, there is more than enough literature out there pointing this out. From babies to the elderly, I guess these idiots also do not have relatives who would be affected? I work with three pilots who need to be careful and two of them have grandchildren who need to be very careful.

If you feel you're not at risk, please go out there and do your utmost to get it, I hope it's a life threatening event for you.

[ZFT]

The ones who are sticking their fingers in their ears are the likes of you! It isn't just those over 60 who are more susceptible, there is more than enough literature out there pointing this out. From babies to the elderly, I guess these idiots also do not have relatives who would be affected? I work with three pilots who need to be careful and two of them have grandchildren who need to be very careful.

If you feel you're not at risk, please go out there and do your utmost to get it, I hope it's a life threatening event for you.

I recall he is married to a nurse so maybe be a tad nicer?

[Landflap]

Good grief, the imbalance is astonishing . KLM, where ? Why ? Heard of Social distancing ? How you gonna do that in the check-in area, after check- in area . pre- boarding area, on board area ? Crew ? Capt & F/o to be fully kitted or at least 2 metres apart, or is it one metre...at all times ? Cain crew in the galley. really ? My Daily read, yesterday, showed BA flight full of punters, three in a row. Cabin crew in masks & gloves but bumping into each-other. Blimey. I do , almost, give up. And where, why. Are we still not in global lock-down ? Flights banned ? Easing up I know, but, look, here's the thing. The flu virus in the N Hemisphere is over and that particular virus hates warm weather. That's why the infection curves a flattening out. Watch out Southern hemisphere because what is quite normal will be described by the WHO as "The second wave " !

Nasty little EXFOXCX, death wish ? You sound a lovely little fella . How many folk do you know have died of the Virus. I mean Covid 19 ? Name one please . I mean,listen up Foxy, I mean, OF THE COVID 19 and NOT.............."related, underlying symptoms"...........Anyone ? NO, didn't think so. C'mon, just one. I know of no-one. People I ask the same question to know of,..........NO-ONE.....! You might have C-19 on the death Certificate but I bet there were " underlying symptoms" .

People get the flu, every year, in huge numbers. Medically challenged (other symptoms ) die. In HUGE numbers. Was it the flue or underlying conditions that could not resist the flu. Think about it.

Foxy. Cheer up. I am in the Age over 70 threatened group. I survived Pneumonia shortly after birth which has left me prone to flu, Bronchial problems, couple of near-death pneumonias etc , but still here. Didn't get CV-19. But I think this winter, I will, again, get the flu because no-one Social Distances with that silly little virus . To put a smile on that little Ozzzzzzzzzy face, this time, I might die too .

[kpd]

Goodness me - ? death wishes and discussions on" just " losing a percentage of the population- what on earth do these comments have to do with KLM daily flights? I realise these are very difficult times for everyone and especially those losing jobs but maybe time for the moderators to get serious.

[atakacs]

Goodness me - ? death wishes and discussions on" just " losing a percentage of the population- what on earth do these comments have to do with KLM daily flights? I realise these are very difficult times for everyone and especially those losing jobs but maybe time for the moderators to get serious.
Thank you !

[PilotLZ]

Gentlemen, life will never be completely free of threats. There are threats in going to mass gatherings (infection, getting crushed by the crowd, falling victim to a mass act of terrorism etc). There are threats to every other activity, including flying. And the solution is not to put all human activity on hold indefinitely and just sit there and wait until we die of something, be it a virus, a fall down the staircase or starvation. The solution is to learn to live with the threats and mitigate their consequences as far as practically possible while still having room for doing things. Just as in flying we accept the presence of threats and do our very best to mitigate them.

Nobody is claiming that the virus no longer exists. Sadly, that's not the case. But the world needs to get going sooner rather than later so as to avoid even greater losses. If you destroy the livelihoods of like 30% of the population just because their jobs rely on human contact or human movement, the resulting losses of life will be tremendous. Not in the last place because there will be nobody to support the state and put into the budget the money which could be used for healthcare or support of the unemployed.

[SAMXXV]

I am.

My friends are. Many are now planning next holidays. There is very little ‘fear’ in my cohort; mostly frustration at why 99.9% of us need to suffer social and economically for the welfare of the weakest 1%

UK population in 2019 = 66.55 million
UK Covid-19 deaths as of today = 28734

The deaths to date = 0.04317%

[vlieger]

UK population in 2019 = 66.55 million
UK Covid-19 deaths as of today = 28734

The deaths to date = 0.04317%

Sorry, and this is getting off-topic, but the real number as per Financial Times is around 50k. This is with a lockdown. Without it you'd probably be looking at half a million. Your point is?

[Pistonprop]

PilotLZ, the problem will be that the world will only keep going for a short while before another, possibly more disastrous, wave hits us and sends the economy crashing in flames regardless. Better to keep some form of control than being gung-ho about it.

[SAMXXV]

Sorry, and this is getting off-topic, but the real number as per Financial Times is around 50k. This is with a lockdown. Without it you'd probably be looking at half a million. Your point is?

My point is that there is a vast difference between the quoted 1% & the true(ish) figure of 0.04317% !!!!

[Herod]

Come on mods. This thread is getting silly, and not a little acrimonious. Please either close it or move it to Jet Blast, and let the grown ups on here have sensible discussions.

[ATC Watcher]

Come on mods. This thread is getting silly, and not a little acrimonious. Please either close it or move it to Jet Blast, and let the grown ups on here have sensible discussions.
I second that !

[NorvernSuvna]

well, below is an example of how we can all end up with the virus very quickly, and I imagine the passengers spilled out unchecked ready to infect anybody they are staying with in London ?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-52539141 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-52539141)

[Pistonprop]

Well, arguably, there's only so much you can say about KLM resuming services to three destinations!!!

[vikingivesterled]

Well, arguably, there's only so much you can say about KLM resuming services to three destinations!!!

But it is a start and we could discuss if there is more airlines could do to get potential customers back in the air.
That KLM is opening 3 routes is a positive step in the right direction. At least they are not just sitting on their proverbials waiting for more handouts of fresly printed readies from their government. But much more is needed. Now they need to come with up and widely promote some new safety measures of their own. If they are keeping the middle seat free, tell people. Are they demanding face masks, annnounce it. It is measures like that that will convince more to fly. Not being coy about what will meet you at the airport.

The flight has to be more than 90% full to make a profit times have gone, for now. It will take time and a lot more knowledge about the status of CoVid19 before that comes back. In the meantime airlines have a choice between just waiting it out or proactively doing something about it. Just complaining we can't adapt to changed times will convince very few to fly. It won't be the airlines that barely survives until normality that comes strengthened out of this compared to the competition. It will be the ones that can prove they have an adaptable business also in bad times.

[F100 driver]

What difference does leaving the middle seat free make?

The air in the cabin is a mixture of fresh air taken from the compressors on the engines, conditioned through the air packs and then mixed with existing cabin air and pumped throughout the cabin by the recirculation fans.

It wouldn't matter if there were only two people sat on the plane, at opposite ends of the cabin; they would both still be breathing in the same air

[vikingivesterled]

What difference does leaving the middle seat free make?

The air in the cabin is a mixture of fresh air taken from the compressors on the engines, conditioned through the air packs and then mixed with existing cabin air and pumped throughout the cabin by the recirculation fans.

It wouldn't matter if there were only two people sat on the plane, at opposite ends of the cabin; they would both still be breathing in the same air

Its not only about the air but also about touching something wich your hand another persons hand just has touched, the armrest. Or rubbing shoulders. One thing is to handsanatize your hands after boarding. A different thing is to do it between every time you touch the armrest and your face on a 2 hour flight. If no one in the middel seat you can clean the armrests with a disinfectant wipe when you board and you are then the only one touching both of them.
And lets hope the airline have the sense to use more fresh air than existing air in their mix these days. Even though the HEPA filters should do a good job on the reused part.

[the_stranger]

And lets hope the airline have the sense to use more fresh air than existing air in their mix these days. Even though the HEPA filters should do a good job on the reused part.
Both Boeing and airbus advise against turn off the recirc portion of the airconditioning.
Using only fresh air will drastically reduce airflow and increases the chance airborne droplets (with virus) will float further away from the source.

With the recirculation added to the mix, air flow is mostly vertical (coming from the ceiling and exiting via the floor directory below it) keeping the droplets close to the source.
And with a 99%+ capture rate of the filters, you might end up with more clean air in a certain amount of time.

[eimin]

It is a very interesting debate.

On one hand, there is this crazy race, in which biotechnology companies around the world are throwing everything on the table to find a treatment/vaccine. With the FDA sometimes expediting processes that, under normal circumstances, would take considerably more time to accomplish.

And then we have got this almost delusional idea that many western countries seem to push into their citizens: We will win the war against the virus. No, we won't. For decades we have been oblivious to the true reality of humans. Super advanced society, too busy traveling, staring at LED screens, and being warm and comfortable after pressing a switch at home. The virus will keep killing and, unfortunately, the weakest will suffer the most part.

At some point I want to believe that governments will say "kids, here's the deal: life sucks, nature is a b***". The same way we take cancer deaths, tobacco deaths, road accident deaths, diabetes deaths, cardiovascular deaths, etc. as normal.

Take a combination of Swedish+S.Korean approach, and let life continue.

[SINGAPURCANAC]

It is interesting to see wide range of experts who compare some numbers and find conclusion followed by solutions to problem . 😊😀😁😂😂
Numbers- do you really believe in numbers provided by South European countries? 😍😍
And than according to those "relevant" numbers "experts" conclude that is worst ever virus and we have to close life- particular stop aviation.
It seems that not only Balkans reserved for debil politician but Western Europe as well.

[vikingivesterled]

The more we know about the virus the better, the longer it takes before you get it the better chance of survival.
Early in New York you had a 1 in 3 chance of survival if you where intubated. Now they know to wait as long as you can before intubation.
A month ago there was no drug they could give you to help. Now they have 1, and more will likely come on stream as time progresses.
By autumn they might have the deathrate down to flulike proportions, Hopefully before the normal flu season starts again in the western world. Then we can go back to normal.
But with some you can't win. If you keep much open and many dies, like Sweden, you didn do enough to limit suffering. If you lock everything down people are concluding that since not enough died it is not so serious so why do they have to suffer economically.

In the meantime airlines can do their outmost to not become the new hotbed of contamination. Just like every other business have to. Why should airlines be allowed to cram them in when restaurants, bars, supermarkets and hirdressers aren't allowed to. They all also would make (more) money if they could carry on as before.

[FreemaninHK]

Sorry, and this is getting off-topic, but the real number as per Financial Times is around 50k. This is with a lockdown. Without it you'd probably be looking at half a million. Your point is?


Still 1%.

and yes.. my wife and I contracted in Bangkok in 1st week March. I was poorly for 4-5 days, she had some actually breathing issues requiring O2.

I don’t take this lightly but neither do I take my being able to pay my mortgage or put my two kids though school.

I call it acceptable loss. The earth is over populated, we are straining its resources.
Are less people a bad thing? The vast majority of those dying had a strong underlying conditions.

Some of you recoil at that, but I am allowed my opinion.

If I was Captain of a sinking ship with 100 pax and 98 life bests am I not going to hand out the 98 I have? All we can do is do our best for the greater good.

My .02

[PilotLZ]

How about today's revelations from France? It turned out that there was a COVID-19 case as early as 27 December 2019, well and by far before lockdown. Who knows, maybe there were other cases even earlier. Also, what can explain the abnormally high number of pneumonia cases in other countries in the last months of 2019? All sorts of numerical data analysis follow one simple rule - crap in, crap out. When you don't have good input data, you can't draw meaningful conclusions. A couple of months into the havoc we still don't know what exactly we don't know.

The gradual opening up that's happening throughout Europe now seems to be more of a necessity than of something that was concluded on the basis of facts and figures. We need to somehow get the wheels turning to stay that side of the grass for as long as possible. Otherwise, the social crisis will take its own victims in huge numbers. Unduly harsh? Maybe. But that's how it's been ever since.

[S speed]

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1200x1175/xufrinvi5sdkcewjq8avpi_1200_80_2dd77dba120c0b3855be652defe99 3029233f080.jpg
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.livescience.com/amp/3780-odds-dying.html

https://videos.utahgunexchange.com/watch/the-quot-cure-quot-is-killing-more-people-than-coronavirus-dr-erickson-covid-19-briefing_XgoYUhXl8R4EHcf.html

Granted its a few years old, but dying from COVID-19 and dying from an accident have roughly the same probability, let's all stay at home to avoid accidents. (And don't say accidents can be avoided, that's why they are called accidents!) Watch the video that is the second link.

[liider]

Air Baltic will immediately start flying from Riga on 13th May after emergency state is over.
Only 17 people died in Latvia from COVID till today, no new cases for last 2 days and also less than 10 new cases per day are registered in neighboring Estonia and Lithuania during last week.

[covec]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8282865/Passengers-slam-airlines-lack-social-distancing-crammed-like-sardines.html

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-52539141 (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8282865/Passengers-slam-airlines-lack-social-distancing-crammed-like-sardines.html)

Flightradar24 right now is fairly busy!

Building anger on the BBC UK News site.

But good luck KLM.

[LGW Vulture]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8282865/Passengers-slam-airlines-lack-social-distancing-crammed-like-sardines.html

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-52539141 (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8282865/Passengers-slam-airlines-lack-social-distancing-crammed-like-sardines.html)

Flightradar24 right now is fairly busy!

Building anger on the BBC UK News site.

But good luck KLM.

Yes the BBC are having a field day on knocking the aviation industry. They disgust me - alongside most Western TV news outlets I hasten to add.

[Obama57]

It is a very interesting debate.

On one hand, there is this crazy race, in which biotechnology companies around the world are throwing everything on the table to find a treatment/vaccine. With the FDA sometimes expediting processes that, under normal circumstances, would take considerably more time to accomplish.

And then we have got this almost delusional idea that many western countries seem to push into their citizens: We will win the war against the virus. No, we won't. For decades we have been oblivious to the true reality of humans. Super advanced society, too busy traveling, staring at LED screens, and being warm and comfortable after pressing a switch at home. The virus will keep killing and, unfortunately, the weakest will suffer the most part.

At some point I want to believe that governments will say "kids, here's the deal: life sucks, nature is a b***". The same way we take cancer deaths, tobacco deaths, road accident deaths, diabetes deaths, cardiovascular deaths, etc. as normal.

Take a combination of Swedish+S.Korean approach, and let life continue.

Here’s the thing.... health care workers aren’t going to die treating my heart attack, lung cancer, broken bones, crushed skulls.

[Cat Techie]

Still 1%.

and yes.. my wife and I contracted in Bangkok in 1st week March. I was poorly for 4-5 days, she had some actually breathing issues requiring O2.

I don’t take this lightly but neither do I take my being able to pay my mortgage or put my two kids though school.

I call it acceptable loss. The earth is over populated, we are straining its resources.
Are less people a bad thing? The vast majority of those dying had a strong underlying conditions.

Some of you recoil at that, but I am allowed my opinion.

If I was Captain of a sinking ship with 100 pax and 98 life bests am I not going to hand out the 98 I have? All we can do is do our best for the greater good.

My .02
Fortunately most people think your opinion is up your own bottom. Joe bloggs is not going to fly anywhere if they haven't had it. I watched the footfall die on my lots planning prog day on day before lockdown. We were cutting routes way before the lockdown. You opinions will not get people flying.

[Chris2303]

UK population in 2019 = 66.55 million
UK Covid-19 deaths as of today = 28734

The deaths to date = 0.04317%

the percentage is totally irrelevant. The families of your 28734 dead are still grieving.

[vikingivesterled]

Why are everybody comparing the Covid19 deathrates with annual death rates for other stuff. We are only in the beginning og this but some are already toting up the totals like if a year has gone and it was all over.
About 1% of the population in different countries has been confirmed with the virus. Nromally 1/3 are naturally immune to a disease and 1/3 for seome reason or another don't get it. Then we shall need to get up to 33%. And with all the easing of lockdowns that will accelerate now. So take all your covid numbers and multiply with 33, or a litle bit less as we learn more and lower the deathrates as we go along.

This still have a long way to run and in the meantime we need to find new smart ways to save our industry. Social separation, either by distancing or other means of physical separation, like masks, walls or curtains, is the current model.
Maybe we will get charters to gated holliday resorts with time. If they can be conducted in a manner that both the paying public and governements are happy with.
Rushing to normality is the dream of some politicians and many airline CEO's but it will have a high, maybe not purely monetary, cost.
Setting up a few stuffed flights is however not going to entice many of those that pay their fare themselves to fly, or visit neither Spain nor Italy this year.

[Bidule]

Numbers- do you really believe in numbers provided by South European countries? 😍😍


The numbers provided by South European countries are at least as reliable than those provided by UK for instance....

vikingivesterled;10773775]
Setting up a few stuffed flights is however not going to entice many of those that pay their fare themselves to fly, or visit neither Spain nor Italy this year.


Would it be better to visit France, UK?

.

[golfyankeesierra]

The numbers provided by South European countries are at least as reliable than those provided by UK for instance....



Would it be better to visit France, UK?

.

I guess northern Italy is a very safe to go this summer/autumn. Immunity will be among highest in Europe, and the Italians will be both cautious and disciplined in social distancing.
The question is will the Italian government allow you to visit?

[calypso]

the Italians will be both cautious and disciplined

Have you ever been to Italy?

[Nightstop]

I should imagine the resumption of flights by KLM is partly due to Dutch government's temporary emergency employment bridging scheme. It is based on the percentage of turnover lost due to the pandemic. With 100% of turnover lost, the government subsidises 90% of the wage sum for 3 months. The main conditions for eligibility to the scheme are that the company in question does not apply for any redundancies for economic reasons during the 3 months and that all wages continue to be paid in full. The Dutch government has said it will likely extend the measure for another period if necessary, possibly with additional conditions. During the scheme employees can work, so it is not a (partial) unemployment scheme. If turnover rises, the wage subsidy is adapted accordingly. The Dutch government has budgeted 10 billion euros for the scheme, which could go on for 9 months.

Credits: with thanks to my Dutch Ppruning colleagues for providing me with the above information.

[jthg]

I am.

My friends are. Many are now planning next holidays. There is very little ‘fear’ in my cohort; mostly frustration at why 99.9% of us need to suffer social and economically for the welfare of the weakest 1%

In case nobody has ever raised this previously you should be conscious that you couldn’t sound more like a sociopath.

and innumerate which is an interesting combination.

Are you the health secretary?

[bookmark]

Have you ever been to Italy?

Yes
And where exactly have you been in italy?

[ATC Watcher]

I guess northern Italy is a very safe to go this summer/autumn. Immunity will be among highest in Europe, and the Italians will be both cautious and disciplined in social distancing.
The question is will the Italian government allow you to visit?
and bookmark :
And where exactly have you been in italy?
Are you referring to Sud Tyrol or Lombardia ? That is where the first epicenter and origin of the vast majority of cases that started to spread and infected the rest of Europe . Going on holidays there would be equivalent to go to visit Wuhan. Maybe be safe but not really a first choice for destination I would say ...

[the_stranger]

I should imagine the resumption of flights by KLM is partly due to Dutch government's temporary emergency employment bridging scheme.
I highly doubt that.

Unless those flights make a profit (or will wake that after a slow ramp up), it is cheaper for KLM not to fly. (as in it minimizes loss).

As you said, KLM (and any other Dutch company which aplies) gets a maximum of 90% of the paycosts compensated (with a max, which is below some senior pilots, bit in this scheme KLM has to pay full wages, even those above the maximum compensation).
This 90% is based on no turnover at all, and like you said, scales down with increasing turnover. If they start flying without eventually turning a profit, it will create some turnover therefore reducing the amount of money KLM gets from the government.
Costs have stayed the same or have risen due to the new flights, so KLM is losing.

​​​​​​KLM has always been looking for profits, especially with the current CEO, they have been quite proactive in trying to expand the income. They might not always have succeeded and made some dumb mistakes, but within the deadlock of a growth capped airport, increasing noise and enviromental complaints and struggles with France, they made record profits the last couple of years.

So these flights must have a profit reason, most probably to feed the (few) long haul flights, either allready or in the (close) future.

[cats_five]

I am.

My friends are. Many are now planning next holidays. There is very little ‘fear’ in my cohort; mostly frustration at why 99.9% of us need to suffer social and economically for the welfare of the weakest 1%

Good to see the milk of human kindness runs rich in your world. We'll remember that when you or your immediate family are old and/or infirm.

[Herod]

Freemaninhk: From one of your earlier posts. my wife and I contracted in Bangkok in 1st week March. I was poorly for 4-5 days, she had some actually breathing issues requiring O2.

I don’t take this lightly but neither do I take my being able to pay my mortgage or put my two kids though school.

I call it acceptable loss.

Presumably that means you would be happy living in your house and bringing up your kids ALONE? I wonder what your wife thinks of that attitude.

[exfocx]

Still 1%.

and yes.. my wife and I contracted in Bangkok in 1st week March. I was poorly for 4-5 days, she had some actually breathing issues requiring O2.

I don’t take this lightly but neither do I take my being able to pay my mortgage or put my two kids though school.

I call it acceptable loss. The earth is over populated, we are straining its resources.
Are less people a bad thing? The vast majority of those dying had a strong underlying conditions.

Some of you recoil at that, but I am allowed my opinion.

If I was Captain of a sinking ship with 100 pax and 98 life bests am I not going to hand out the 98 I have? All we can do is do our best for the greater good.

My .02


OMG, where do you start with this piece? I guess backwards, like the thinking!
If I was Captain of a sinking ship with 100 pax and 98 life bests am I not going to hand out the 98 I have? All we can do is do our best for the greater good. Bloody poor analogy as we are not stuck with that choice of there being insufficient health care (life jackets), unless we're to do as you think the world should have done. Under your direction we won't be doing our best, we'd be doing NOTHING!

I call it acceptable loss. The earth is over populated, we are straining its resources.
Are less people a bad thing? The vast majority of those dying had a strong underlying conditions. Basically the law of the jungle, be careful what you wish for as some people have a different idea how that "law" works in practice. Do you know anyone who has a child or infant with heart issues that would be seriously at risk, do you know anyone that is undergoing chemo to fight cancer or those who have had transplants and are required to stay on anti-immune drugs for life.; you're basically condemning anyone in one of those situations.

So you think the way to tackle over population is just to needlessly allow people to die, rather than tackle the issue via politically means. I'm glad you're not a Dr and I'd be curious what your nurse-wife thinks of these views. Haven't met a nurse yet who I think would agree with them.

We haven't even started to work out how we may rework our lives and society as yet, and you want to throw these people on the bonfire.so you can go to the shops because 6 weeks has been really tough on you. Very weak of you!

and yes.. my wife and I contracted in Bangkok in 1st week March. I was poorly for 4-5 days, she had some actually breathing issues requiring O2.
I don't believe a word of that, your thinking is that of someone very selfish.

[FreemaninHK]

Freemaninhk: From one of your earlier posts.



Presumably that means you would be happy living in your house and bringing up your kids ALONE? I wonder what your wife thinks of that attitude.


She is worried about her mother back in Spain and wishes she could fly their to see her. She lived through it and would like to go back to her life now.

She further hopes my corporate owner doesn’t ditch the jet and us as he can’t fly anywhere for who knows when and is worried about or finances.


Thank you for your question.

[Vendee]

if you have a underlying issue why are we spending excessive resource to keep you alive at the expense at others?



Perhaps because they have paid into the healthcare system for all their working lives and now expect that system to look after them?

[DingerX]

We'll see how KLM does. Good for them.
A few points: in addition to the facts that mortality is much lower when the health care system is not overwhelmed, and when experience reveals the most effective treatments, we're dealing with an unknown disease here. The focus right now is on the worst outcome - immediate death. But what about everyone who will have lung issues for years? What about the liver? Did you lose your sense of taste and smell? Maybe you lost something else upstairs. Maybe we'll get lucky and there'll be minimal long term consequences. That's another bet to take.
So how much do you want to bet the economy? By the way, we learned already that those countries that took the strictest measures early are already doing better. Maybe the worst you can do is try to keep things open and running.

[Livesinafield]

Its nice to see things starting to return to normal, people able to earn incomes again and pay for their family to live, 1% or less is fatality affected by this, yet the economic effects of these measures will for sure affect many many more, and yes some will be fatal. Its vital that the world gets back to work and carries on, protect the vulnerable and the healthy need to work.

Covid19 has had me out of work now for a few months with zero prospect of earning enough money to keep my life running, and feeding my young family which right now I'm more concerned about than a virus, so the quicker we all get back to work the better

[ShotOne]

The solution may have to be toleration, combined with sensible mitigations. And before a raft of posts telling us how this will “cost lives”, this is the approach we currently employ for most other diseases which kill vastly more of us than covid.

[the_stranger]

The solution may have to be toleration, combined with sensible mitigations. And before a raft of posts telling us how this will “cost lives”, this is the approach we currently employ for most other diseases which kill vastly more of us than covid.
True.

While covid19 isn't directly comparable with other diseases, we do have to live with it, like all other afflictions.

If there will be a vaccin, it will not be here within a year, unless we are (very) lucky.
Keeping the planet locked up for that time is desastreus for the economy.
And while the economy isn't alle there is, it does drive everythinf else.
No economy means no income for countries/citizens. No income means no healthcare, no education, no services.
However too many covid patients means also no healthcare for the rest, no services, etc.

So we have to find a middle ground, even if that means people will will have a higher chance of dying, as keeping everything locked up will also result in a higher chance, just a different cause.

[PilotLZ]

I read a very sobering study yesterday, saying that all this mess and the number of missed tuberculosis vaccines because of it can lead to upwards of 5 million tuberculosis deaths in the next 5 years. Just put that into perspective. That's only one possible implication of keeping everything locked down ad infinitum. Not to mention all the premature deaths of those who don't get timely treatment for their conditions because they are considered as "non-urgent" and not treated or because of being too scared of contagion to seek medical help.

Loss of life is always a tragedy, regardless the case. The scary thing is that while we're trying to prevent deaths from COVID-19, we can incur lots of unnecessary deaths from other causes which wouldn't have happened otherwise. It's a very fine balance and I absolutely don't envy those who have to get it right and make the difficult decisions.

[passportstamp]

I am.

My friends are. Many are now planning next holidays. There is very little ‘fear’ in my cohort; mostly frustration at why 99.9% of us need to suffer social and economically for the welfare of the weakest 1%

I'm suffering just reading this post tbh

[Herod]

For those who think this is "just like the 'flu", Obama57 posted this in #53

Here’s the thing.... health care workers aren’t going to die treating my heart attack, lung cancer, broken bones, crushed skulls. .Very good point

To which I would ask how many health care workers die from treating people with the 'flu? In the UK alone, over 100 health care workers have died, treating people suffering with covid.

IT IS NOT JUST LIKE THE 'FLU

[Radgirl]

In the UK alone, over 100 health care workers have died, treating people suffering with covid.

The Government is bandying about the mid 50s but the media claims 159 so around 100 is about right. The NHS alone employs 1.4m. Compare that with agriculture employing 360,000 which suffers 33 deaths every year. Slightly less for fishing and mining.....so the risk for an NHS employee is no worse than working on a farm, and the risk only applies to perhaps a couple of months in a 40 year career. I dont hear farm labourers called heroes......

That is the real issue aviation is facing.... getting the general public to understand risk. The excess deaths from untreated cancer and other illnesses will clearly exceed Covid-19 deaths but the vast majority of the public are terrified of this plague, not helped by an incompetent government that did too little too late and so is faced with an extended lockdown and no quick resolution. Handled properly aviation would still have taken a hit but the state wouldnt be paying 1 in 4 of the population and could properly support aviation as other industries work normally

[vikingivesterled]

That is the real issue aviation is facing.... getting the general public to understand risk. The excess deaths from untreated cancer and other illnesses will clearly exceed Covid-19 deaths but the vast majority of the public are terrified of this plague, not helped by an incompetent government that did too little too late and so is faced with an extended lockdown and no quick resolution. Handled properly aviation would still have taken a hit but the state wouldnt be paying 1 in 4 of the population and could properly support aviation as other industries work normally

Poltiticians and the airline's potential customers problem is to get the airline industry to understand the riks of the disease.
It is still early days with CoVid19. IT's like the early days of HIV, now your chance of survival is much better, even without a vaccine. The more we learn about a disease the greater our chance, Example now we know not to go right to intubation. Btw have you got your oxymeter yet so you know when you will need oxygen. For most that is a no because they come from China and airfreight out of China is still heavily impaired. At least we should know why people without underlying, and the young, conditions sometimes sucumb and die. Some of us needs to get into better health for a better chance. This will take time and requires patience and slow moves.

The Airline industry have attracted its fare share of people that would gladly send its tenants off to the new world in coffin ships if they then could use the land and make money. Many of them have not yet been shocked into enough action to safeguard their passengers to the best of their ability, Even if that include taking some radical measures for a while, and even adjust normal procedures and what profitable numbers look like. Some are simply still just having hissy fits like a crying baby on the floor in front of the chocolate stand. Bothering society with their personal grieveances and hobbyhorses even in a time of crisis. Showing responsible politicians that they are not the leaders of aviation to be trusted to have an input in how and when international travel should be opened up again.

[ATC Watcher]

vikingivesterled (https://www.pprune.org/members/185209-vikingivesterled) : you do not post often in 13 years , but when you do it is worth reading :).. Your last paragraph is spot on I would say .

[the_stranger]

Even if that include taking some radical measures for a while, and even adjust normal procedures and what profitable numbers look like.
While in a way I do agree with you, what would you have them do though?

Couple of days ago there was a parlementary session discussing the support KLM would recieve.
While the French already have a finalised package, nothing is arranged yet for KLM, the amount of money is not even certain.
Besides that, it was painfully clear many politicians would rather erase KLM sooner than later and let foreign carriers take over whichever routes they want.

Barring that, they demanded a smaller KLM which (somehow) has to make a profit as soon as possible to pay back the yet to be determined support (which will be loans, no gifts). Furthermore, there were demands no jobs would be lost, unless it is a pilot, they can go, heavy restrictions in number of flights and times of flights, etc.

Fortunately, the major party is a little more sensible, but still has to cater to the rest of the parties. It is clear KLM has to do it in its own, burdened by both high interest loans and restrictions on how to operate.

If they do not start up as soon as possible, they will be bankrupt, They simply can't sit back and wait for covid to be gone (whichever way), because they will be gone a lot sooner.

[vikingivesterled]

While in a way I do agree with you, what would you have them do though?

Airlines will have to adhere to the rules like the rest of the companies that want to reopen. Similar to restaurants and schools
If they can't manage the recommended distancing separation they can do physical barrier separation. A company like KLM could use it as a marketing tool to entice more back to flying.
They can use something like the old class divider curtains between every row. At least one company has come up with a seats in same row partitioner also.
They can offer each customer a couple of sanitizing napkins to wipe off armrests. And masks should be used.
Security need to allow personal bottles of handsanitizer through so you can sanitize your hands often.
Increase boarding areas so people can queue orderly with greater distance. More floor walkers to rules are followed.
Some sort of cleaning after every flight. Panuts on the floor or sick under your seat would not inspire confidense and will end up in the press.
Ensure proper Hepa filters are installed in air conditioning, and properly cleaned. Cleaning of whole channel system at regular intervalls may be required, similar to what you sometimes do with a gas canister in a car.
Completely avoid possibilities of passengers taking pictures of people on every seat. Excuses by mangement afterwards just sound lame and bare witness of lack of control and that they can't be trusted.
Airlines with sutable planes can also take advantages of possibilities in the cargo market. China-Europe freight is still in a mess. And cargo volumes will rise a lot faster than passenger volumes as people are going back to work without borders being fully opened and quarantines of people still being practised.
Raise prices to required levels. They who fly now are not that price sensitive. The time for getting extra large volumes of passengers back by low low offers will come after CoVid19. Most routes don't even have competition these days.

If you are in the wouldn't fly now as a passenger category, feel free to add what an airline could do that would bring you back. Notwithstanding government no fly rules or impracticability with the long quarantines after cross border travel.

[the_stranger]

Airlines will have to adhere to the rules like the rest of the companies that want to reopen. Similar to restaurants and schools
If they can't manage the recommended distancing separation they can do physical barrier separation. A company like KLM could use it as a marketing tool to entice more back to flying.
They can use something like the old class divider curtains between every row. At least one company has come up with a seats in same row partitioner also.
They can offer each customer a couple of sanitizing napkins to wipe off armrests. And masks should be used.
Security need to allow personal bottles of handsanitizer through so you can sanitize your hands often.
Increase boarding areas so people can queue orderly with greater distance. More floor walkers to rules are followed.
Some sort of cleaning after every flight. Panuts on the floor or sick under your seat would not inspire confidense and will end up in the press.
Ensure proper Hepa filters are installed in air conditioning, and properly cleaned. Cleaning of whole channel system at regular intervalls may be required, similar to what you sometimes do with a gas canister in a car.
Completely avoid possibilities of passengers taking pictures of people on every seat. Excuses by mangement afterwards just sound lame and bare witness of lack of control and that they can't be trusted.
Airlines with sutable planes can also take advantages of possibilities in the cargo market. China-Europe freight is still in a mess. And cargo volumes will rise a lot faster than passenger volumes as people are going back to work without borders being fully opened and quarantines of people still being practised.
Raise prices to required levels. They who fly now are not that price sensitive. The time for getting extra large volumes of passengers back by low low offers will come after CoVid19. Most routes don't even have competition these days.

If you are in the wouldn't fly now as a passenger category, feel free to add what an airline could do that would bring you back. Notwithstanding government no fly rules or impracticability with the long quarantines after cross border travel.
A lot of those are already in place, as masksamasks mandatory, disinfecting gel is allowed when under 100ml (airlines can't change those rules) and aircraft are cleaner differently.
Others are under discussion or too impractible, for example I wonder how dividers, either between seats of rows, are combined with evacuation protocols/times.

Klm already flies more cargo in pax planes than before corona, most flights are either to or from the destination with just cargo (and pax on the other stretch). They got the 747 back in action after retiring them earlier.
They started a partnership with Philips to start a regular flight schedule to bring medical equipment in from China, they do repatriation flights getting people back to their homecountry.

They are doing a lot, as safe as possible. But there is and will always be a balance between safety and profit and as a registered company, they have to make a profit if they ever want to survive.

​​​​​​

[autoflight]

Of course everyone has a right to question the balance of measures adopted in specific countries. But when that opinion is factually (and arithmetically) mistaken, and expresses contempt and disregard for the more vulnerable, people have a right to express their abhorrence.
Claims by FreemaninHK (https://www.pprune.org/members/436090-freemaninhk) are more suitable for Jetblast where he could start his own thread.

[Bend alot]

Aviation changed the world and we are all proud of the roles we play, we take our responsibilities very seriously. If we don't people can die.

Covid - 19 has infected many and will continue to - more will die, a simple fact. How many more will die does depend a lot, exactly how many extra deaths will never be known. We currently just do not know enough about this virus yet, simple things like can you catch it again are not known. We do know a fair portion of cases require medical attention, up to ICU admissions.

Our medical colleges are short on resources from PPE to ventilators and ICU beds in many areas and countries, they are working hours we cannot imagine trying to help the sick and watching people die. They are just asking us for time, time to learn and time to increase capacity of the medical centres. They are happy to treat everyone of us, they just cannot treat all of us at the same time - spread the load.

We, our industry played a large part in transporting this virus around the world in record time. Not intentionally but we did all the same, I expect we shall repeat again but let's try not to.

It is our responsibility to assist our medical counter parts until they are better equipped, we need to minimise infection rates to levels our medical professionals can handle. This is highly variable by location. Mass air travel at this time is not very responsible to many locations.

Limited "required" air travel would be great to see, but booking vacations seems a little selfish at this time.

[Tommy Gavin]

Limited "required" air travel would be great to see, but booking vacations seems a little selfish at this time.

One simply does not exist without the other. Besides, what is "required" for you might be different to what is required for a hotel owner on Rhodos....

[bookmark]

and bookmark :

Are you referring to Sud Tyrol or Lombardia ? That is where the first epicenter and origin of the vast majority of cases that started to spread and infected the rest of Europe . Going on holidays there would be equivalent to go to visit Wuhan. Maybe be safe but not really a first choice for destination I would say ...

to tell the truth, I was quoting calypso;

[BEA 71]

I just read that from 1st June Mallorca, Crete ( I think ), Rostock-Laage ( Baltic Sea ) and Sylt ( North Sea ) will be served by member airlines of the Lufthansa Group from Frankfurt and Munich. Passengers will be required to wear face masks, etc., etc.. Air travel has always been a important part of my life, spent over three decades working as a front-liner for a major airline, but the thought of travelling under these conditions would not bring me back on board. I think, it is a joke. It´s either back to normal, flying city pairs and starting from scratch, or nothing.

[Nightstop]

Wearing a face mask for hours on end is extremely unpleasant. The moist heat that builds up around the mouth is intolerable in any environment that isn’t fully air conditioned, that includes most of the situations we find ourselves subjected to in Airports and aircraft pre and post Departure until Arrival. Infections around the face will increase as a result. Passengers and Crew will just not tolerate this “new normal” for very long, if at all.

[PilotLZ]

Face masks will not become the new normal forever. They are just a reasonable compromise to get the wheels turning while there is still an elevated risk of contagion. Hopefully they will no longer be mandatory once the plague is subdued. For the meantime, a mask with a valve could help. It doesn't have to be an expensive and fancy Respro, there are far cheaper analogues of it that do a similar job and are about as comfortable.

[liider]

A mask with a valve protects you, but doesn't protect others, it's useless on aircraft (and basically, everywhere else, if you have an asymptomatic infection). The more protection you get = more difficult for you to breathe; easier to breathe = less protection from the virus, that works for all types of masks and respirators.

[Bend alot]

One simply does not exist without the other. Besides, what is "required" for you might be different to what is required for a hotel owner on Rhodos....
"Required" would not be determined by myself or the hotel owner on Rhodos but an application made for reasons other than leisure. Reasons could be work related, attending a new born, funerals, weddings, birthdays, study, comply with family & work visa requirements, volunteer work and I am sure there are more examples.

[Tommy Gavin]

"Required" would not be determined by myself or the hotel owner on Rhodos but an application made for reasons other than leisure. Reasons could be work related, attending a new born, funerals, weddings, birthdays, study, comply with family & work visa requirements, volunteer work and I am sure there are more examples.
Airlines need a market. There is no market for required flights only.

[Bend alot]

Airlines need a market. There is no market for required flights only.
There currently is no new travel insurance and borders are closed to many locations, that goes for trains,ships and cars.

The problem with vacation/recreation travel and Covid-19 is the time frame and volume of people, spend time in airports and taxis getting to a destination and a hotel/s for a week or ten days. The see and do all the attractions of that location that most other visitors are doing, then return via the airport often within around 14 days.

This allows for numerous hot spots of break outs that can easily overload local hospitals - none of the hospitals are funded by any airline to my knowledge.

So I find it very selfish that our industry is happy to overload another sector and contribute then to extra deaths simply to have a holiday on the beach some place warm.

Personally I am happy to take some financial pain, miss my kids on birthdays, miss my vacation and comply with some lockdown requirements. This will not be the last time this happens, but next time we all shall be better prepared and our hospitals will be better equipped and prepared.

I recall recently a thread or two with outrage of mercy flights of passengers from cruise ship and lack of ppe and consideration of the aircrew on these flights and flight crew should be allowed to refuse them against the medical advice given. Many now seem to forget concerns because the restrictions are inconvenient.

[cheapbizclass]

No one is going to fly except if they need to, or got over contracting the infection and realize it won't contact them.

[White Knight]

"Required" would not be determined by myself or the hotel owner on Rhodos but an application made for reasons other than leisure. Reasons could be work related, attending a new born, funerals, weddings, birthdays, study, comply with family & work visa requirements, volunteer work and I am sure there are more examples.


So who determines 'required'? Muppets like the SAGE advisors? Seems to me YOU would be very happy with a dysfunctional dictatorship! I for one have travelling to do as my family lives all over the world... A face mask should do the trick and a bit of common sense when it comes to personal hygiene!

The World has to keep turning!!! Feel free to hide under your rock:rolleyes:

[Pistonprop]

No one is going to fly except if they need to

Exactly. I keep saying it, and I will say it again: The older (retired) generation account for a significant percentage of travelers and I'm sure they won't be in a hurry to resume travel by mass transport soon. I personally have gone from roughly 50 flights a year to zero so far. It won't surprise me if zero will be my total for 2020. Am I hiding under a rock? No, I have little choice as things stand at present. Flying may resume to near normal levels by the younger generation but the overall loads won't for a good while yet.

[guy_incognito]

No one is going to fly except if they need to

Exactly. I keep saying it, and I will say it again: The older (retired) generation account for a significant percentage of travelers and I'm sure they won't be in a hurry to resume travel by mass transport soon. I personally have gone from roughly 50 flights a year to zero so far. It won't surprise me if zero will be my total for 2020. Am I hiding under a rock? No, I have little choice as things stand at present. Flying may resume to near normal levels by the younger generation but the overall loads won't for a good while yet.

I think this is completely arse about face.

Every single older (not necessarily retired) person in our social circle is intending to go on holiday this autumn/ winter as normal. The older generation are not panicking about this; snowflakes on the other hand are.

[Pistonprop]

Exact opposite where I come from guy_incognito, no one is planning anything right now. Nothing to do with being snowflakes and all to do with being patient for a while yet. Enjoy your holidays!

[Bend alot]

So who determines 'required'? Muppets like the SAGE advisors?
The World has to keep turning!!! Feel free to hide under your rock:rolleyes:
I expect the people that would determine "required", would be the same people that have closed the boarders you wish to enter and/or depart as part of your travel.

[White Knight]

I expect the people that would determine "required", would be the same people that have closed the boarders you wish to enter and/or depart as part of your travel.

One thing closing borders as part of national security, be it military security or biosecurity. It's quite another to decide what is essential! Maybe try reading 1984 or Brave New World!

[ATC Watcher]

Of course it depends where you are located ,but in the 4 European countries I have family in and currently spend my time , this is very much the spirit. Most people I interact with say they will go on holidays inside their country this year. The older generation is not going to go abroad and risk quarantine in a foreign country they do not speak the language and with inferior medical services already overloaded.
As to business travel, both the organisation I work for and the ones I interact with have canceled all physical meetings until end on the year.
I do not mention this out of fear, but sometimes you have to face the facts .

[Tommy Gavin]

I expect the people that would determine "required", would be the same people that have closed the boarders you wish to enter and/or depart as part of your travel.

You have to understand one thing. So called "required" travel will not be viable without recreational travel which means the airlines will not fly. Airplanes have to be filled in order to earn money.