Suggestions needed .. yet again!

[roger7060]

Note to the Mods - Please don't transfer or merge to an existing thread. I am looking replies relevant to my side of the world hence posting in this section. Thank you.

Hi Guys,
I hope all of you and your loved ones are safe.

I have posted in the forum regarding my situation in past as well . Long story short -> 37 years old, married, no kids, applied for REX cadet program, got rejected in WOMBAT itself.

Now I am planning to start my modular flying training. My queries are -

I want to pursue flying but will train over the period of 3-4 years. Keeping my age and current COVID situation I have given up on my dream of being in cockpit of a commercial airliner. Now the plan is pursue PPL, if everything stays favourable (Medical, Income etc) build hours and get CPL in next 3-4 years.
If I manage to get a CPL then try to get a part time job in crop dusting, banner hosting, carrying sky divers etc. So that I can keep flying but don't pay for doing so.

What do you guys think of the plan? Is it reasonable or am I missing out on an important bit?
Lastly any suggestions for a good flying school in Sydney area?

Thank you.

[PoppaJo]

The large majority will claim you are too old, expected. I went in late. Similar age, due to another industry (trade) which was more attractive at the time (and still is). However was on the Airbus 10 years post my first GA job. Had kids late, so will probably be working until I’m 80. Age and prior work experience in another field I felt got me across the line. Employers spent more time asking about me previous non aviation job that my flying experience. I got all the jobs first attempt. My competition was 20 years younger.

I would probably get a move on right about now and not let it drag on too much longer. You can get a PPL relatively quickly and CPL can be done fairly quick too if you have time of work, no kids, will help. Get the books now start reading.

The hardest part would be getting the first job. If I was in your boat, I would probably do all the training in Darwin, Perth or Cairns. Cairns I highly regard, due low output of CPLs, highly regarded CFI and local operators will prefer local based pilots.

Ideally out of CPL you want to go into some form of full time job. Doing a instructor rating is another $25k but will potentially have a job lined up. It would be better for progression if you bypassed the instructing path, into some form of CPL full time job, then twin, regional etc. Can be done, and it’s a trend that occurs for those training up the top. Can shave a few years off. It’s all the timing sadly, relationships formed and who you meet.

[Mach E Avelli]

I hate to rain on your parade BUT....
Unless you have a skill that Australia really, really needs (like nuclear power station design) you have a snowball’s chance in hell of being able to secure a work visa here for a very long time. We have to get our own unemployed off the State tit as soon as we can, even if that means forcing people to go fruit picking.
Add the fact that GA is in terminal decline, and I fail to see any flying opportunities that won’t be snapped up by a few sufficiently wealthy locals who will fly for free or may even pay operators just to build hours.
As for flight schools, if you really must, a few will take your money, promise a job at the end of your training and deliver the licence, but when you are done the job won’t be available. Ex airline pilots are taking basic instructor jobs just to stay in the game.
A few other schools will take your money, promise the earth and collapse before your training is complete.
Caveat emptor.

[roger7060]

Thank you for the reply Captain. Much appreciated.
Can you please suggest a few books I can start with. Is it mandatory to do RPL or can I directly go for PPL? Any idea about the average cost for PPL?
Moving out of Sydney is not feasible right now because my wife got a permanent job here and job opportunities in my field (Project Management) are considerably higher in Sydney.
The large majority will claim you are too old, expected. I went in late. Similar age, due to another industry (trade) which was more attractive at the time (and still is). However was on the Airbus 10 years post my first GA job. Had kids late, so will probably be working until I’m 80. Age and prior work experience in another field I felt got me across the line. Employers spent more time asking about me previous non aviation job that my flying experience. I got all the jobs first attempt. My competition was 20 years younger.

I would probably get a move on right about now and not let it drag on too much longer. You can get a PPL relatively quickly and CPL can be done fairly quick too if you have time of work, no kids, will help. Get the books now start reading.


The hardest part would be getting the first job. If I was in your boat, I would probably do all the training in Darwin, Perth or Cairns. Cairns I highly regard, due low output of CPLs, highly regarded CFI and local operators will prefer local based pilots.

Ideally out of CPL you want to go into some form of full time job. Doing a instructor rating is another $25k but will potentially have a job lined up. It would be better for progression if you bypassed the instructing path, into some form of CPL full time job, then twin, regional etc. Can be done, and it’s a trend that occurs for those training up the top. Can shave a few years off. It’s all the timing sadly, relationships formed and who you meet.

[roger7060]

Thanks for the reply Captain. Much appreciated.
Not sure about from where the work visa part came in picture. I am an Australian as far as my citizenship is concerned. Maybe my location created the confusion. I was born in India :)
I hate to rain on your parade BUT....
Unless you have a skill that Australia really, really needs (like nuclear power station design) you have a snowball’s chance in hell of being able to secure a work visa here for a very long time. We have to get our own unemployed off the State tit as soon as we can, even if that means forcing people to go fruit picking.
Add the fact that GA is in terminal decline, and I fail to see any flying opportunities that won’t be snapped up by a few sufficiently wealthy locals who will fly for free or may even pay operators just to build hours.
As for flight schools, if you really must, a few will take your money, promise a job at the end of your training and deliver the licence, but when you are done the job won’t be available. Ex airline pilots are taking basic instructor jobs just to stay in the game.
A few other schools will take your money, promise the earth and collapse before your training is complete.
Caveat emptor.

[neville_nobody]

If I manage to get a CPL then try to get a part time job in crop dusting, banner hosting, carrying sky divers etc. So that I can keep flying but don't pay for doing so.

Sky diving will always be around, but the other two really are niche operations which I would suggest do very little, if any, flying in the scheme of things. I cannot remember the last time I saw someone towing a banner or skywriting. To crop dust you are going to have to move and live in country towns. If you are a city slicker with no country connections how do you propose to get into this line of work? There is alot of city/country BS that goes on in farming towns which means you won't just be turning up and walking into a job. You will also need a low level endorsement and somehow get experience. One thing to need to understand in aviation is that nothing just happens. People often talk down how much time and effort goes into getting into and staying in the industry. "Oh I just got a CPL, got 400 hours and moved to the Top End and got a job" That's basically 2-3 years of your life right there with everything else on hold in that statement!!

When you say pursue flying what do you mean by this? There will be very limited opportunities over the next 5 years so what exactly do you want out of this? I only say all this as it will be alot of money invested by you to gain what exactly?

Honestly take that amount of money and invest it one way or another and you will be better off in 20 years time.

[pithblot]

Its not a good plan in my opinion. Mac sums up the chances here pretty accurately.

Whatever you do, don’t go Ag Flying.
Well, not until you are thoroughly grounded in life ‘on the land’ and understand the risks involved and accept that you will probably end your career with a list of colleagues who finished their’s while at work. Ag is not suitable for part time just to “keep your hand in”. Ag flying is as professional as any stream of flying and, since we all need to eat, will come out of this better than most.

Have a look at AAAA (https://aaaa.org.au/) Scroll trough to “Becoming an Ag Pilot”.

Have you considered military flying service? Army, Navy, Airforce, you could do much worse.

[virgindriver]

I’d just stick to PPL and get a share in an airplane like an RV6A.

Take your friends flying, share the costs and have some fun.

Much cheaper in the end and no restrictions on your current job and lifestyle.

Just my thoughts.

[Squawk7700]

I heard Soar is a good school for middle aged pilots. They are in Sydney and Melbourne.

[aroa]

Isnt that spelt SAW...they cut you off 1/2 way.

[Mach E Avelli]

OK, you have the citizenship which at least overcomes one obstacle.
But the hard facts are approaching age 40 is leaving it late in today’s situation to be starting on a flying career. In more prosperous times a new CPL at that age would have had a chance in GA - maybe doing tourist scenic flights, where some operators liked the more ‘mature’ look, building time, moving to charter and for the lucky few, eventually to corporate.
But if you have been following other threads you would know that GA was all but finished in this country before the virus struck. Now most of it is finished.
Well funded or airline backed flight training organisations may survive (though the general downturn in demand for new pilots must be a worry) and specialist work like the RFDS and survey, mustering operations etc will continue, but these are not entry level jobs.
Also, as mentioned above, ag flying is a full-on profession in its own right, so strike that one off your list - particularly if you stay in the Sydney area.
It really does seem that to fly, you will forever have to pay as you go.

[thorn bird]

"I have given up on my dream of being in cockpit of a commercial airliner."

Roger, you have a dream it may look daunting, to some impossible.
Nevertheless, impossible dreams sometimes come true.

I know of a guy with a dream, he started his dream at age 39, every one discouraged him but he
persisted. At age 45 he found himself in the cockpit of a Boeing 737 as a first officer. He is now a captain.

Dreams do come true.

[spektrum]

If I manage to get a CPL then try to get a part time job in crop dusting

Oh boy, the misconceptions of people out there.

[Stretch06]

I heard Soar is a good school for middle aged pilots. They are in Sydney and Melbourne.
You're joking right....?

[Squawk7700]

You're joking right....?

Yes.

There’s more to my comment and some will know what I mean, but I’ll get abused for writing it :-)

[Stickshift3000]

First thing to do is get your PPL done, then you'll be a licensed pilot. You don't have to get RPL first (I did, but there's little benefit unless you want to take passengers flying while you have a break from training).

I completed PPL at age 40. You'll have enough time during this training to think about what your next move might be (CPL etc), don't sweat it.

Just get in there and start to do it, I can't stress that enough. First step is to book a trial introductory flight (TIF) with a flying club. Seek flying club recommendations from people, don't fall for the shiny websites and stock images. Go and talk to the instructors yourself to get a feeling of how you'll get on.

[invertedpancake]

"I have given up on my dream of being in cockpit of a commercial airliner."

Roger, you have a dream it may look daunting, to some impossible.
Nevertheless, impossible dreams sometimes come true.

I know of a guy with a dream, he started his dream at age 39, every one discouraged him but he
persisted. At age 45 he found himself in the cockpit of a Boeing 737 as a first officer. He is now a captain.

Dreams do come true.

Honestly, as someone in their late 30's it is good to hear that not all hope is lost for a change and that anyone can make it happen if they're happy to work hard

[lucille]

So, in four years time you find yourself with a shiny new CPL and 200 hours. What then? You need to explore the likelihood of finding work and pathways to doing so. GA in Australia has long been killed off by red tape and costs meaning that there are very few opportunities.

Despite my gloomy outlook, it is possible but will require huge personal sacrifices along the way. Do you think your family will also be happy to make those sacrifices?Have you looked at the salaries in GA and second tier airlines? Fruit pickers get paid more!

Either way, I wish you all the best.

[Mach E Avelli]

"I have given up on my dream of being in cockpit of a commercial airliner."



I know of a guy with a dream, he started his dream at age 39, every one discouraged him but he
persisted. At age 45 he found himself in the cockpit of a Boeing 737 as a first officer. He is now a captain.

Dreams do come true.

Spoken like a flying school operator!

Over the past 50 years there have been periods where some pilots had a dream run. It was all in the timing. I got lucky - had a job the same day I got my CPL (age 19), first airline job two years later, first airline command two years after that. BUT it was in the days of mandatory retirement and I did have to leave Australia and go to some less desirable locations to get there as quickly as I did. Those who stayed home took 12 to 15 years to their first command, but of course enjoyed better living conditions (and better climate!) while they waited. They thought they were secure, but the events of 1989 proved otherwise. Some who dropped out never returned to aviation. Some went overseas and did far better than they could have at home.

Then came deregulation. Several cycles of good and not so good times have followed. The FIFO business helped. It was in these good times that we saw relatively quick paths to the airlines and early commands. How many still have those commands or even those airline jobs? How many will have them in another three months if this crisis continues?
Think what that means for a 250 hour CPL hoping to get paid to fly.