The Master List

[Whitemonk Returns]

Feeling its important we keep a track of what our employers do over the coming months so that down the line we can all make educated decisions on who can be considered employers of choice, once the choice returns.... Worth mentioning not only limited to financial actions but how people are treated can be included also. I will add people's comments to the original thread from time to time so it can be referred back to for easy reading, and lastly try and be factual :ok: best of luck to us all in the coming months and finally if people don't want to post publicly they can PM me and I will post the update.

[Whitemonk Returns]

In no particular order:

BA: 2 weeks unpaid in each of APR & MAY, spread over 3 months. Works out to 69% for APR, MAY & JUN. Pension redirection into pay is available upon request. This adds ~21%. Threats of 12,000 staff to go including 1135 pilots beginning in June.
Update: redundancies reduced significantly, bottom 450 on the seniority list at risk with the exception of any 787/350 pilots.

Aer Lingus: All pilots on 50% part time, April, May and June. 900 company wide redundancies (20% of workforce). No pilot redundancies so far.

Virgin UK: 47% pay cut with the furlough added on top of that up until June. 426 pilot jobs to go as of May 5th, Gatwick base to close but keeping slots. All 4 engine aircraft to be retired.

Easyjet: 3 options you can choose from.1. 2 Months unpaid leave April/May then full pay assuming no more furlough. Government £2.5k.
2. 50% salary advance spread over 4 months. Then full pay.
3. 67% salary advance Spread over 6 months. Then full pay.

Options 2 and 3 include government £2.5k with the difference been made up by EZY to make the percentage. So months April and May you are in effect “borrowing money from future earnings” go back in June BUT you will receive that same percentage overall.
June: 727 pilot redundancies announced, up to 1/3 of the pilot workforce spread accross all UK bases.
Update Dec: 220 German based pilots fired using a points based matrix to comply with German law
​​​​​
​​TUI UK: furlough scheme 30k/year plus half the difference between furlough and salary. Therefore 100k normal salary is now 65k. No redundancies at present. Return to flying/full pay based on seniority.July Agreement reached:
Zero redundancies. Zero long term changes to terms and conditions. All pilots 80% pay for 80% work rate from Nov 1st . Staged recovery then based on commercial operation/requirements, going to 90% pay for 90% work rate and finally returning to full pay and 100% work rate by 31st October 2021.

Only when all pilots within base, seat, and rank, have had the opportunity to be stage 1 recalled, can stage 2 recalls begin.
Voluntary exit pathway also created for Cpts on pay point 20 or above. Yearly pay increments as per previous pay deal maintained.

Jet2: Basic salary will be reduced by 30.00% for Captains, 24.81% for Senior First Officers, 23.14% for First Officers, and 18.56% for Second Officers. Profit share and 3% payrise cancelled.
June update: Original plans backtracked on, 102 redundancies announced, primarily LIFO spread accross all fleets. All pilots on 70% pay until January 2021. Communication very poor after a solid start.
Update Dec: 70% pay extended until April, barring unforseen circumstances full pay offered to be reinstated for all crew from April 2021.

Stobart: 8 pilots including Captains and First officers kept to run government funded routes (Donegal and Kerry). All other crew laid off. Company did not sign up to wage subsidy schemes in the UK or Ireland.
Update: August, despite advertising for pilots for a new base in BHD, all 50 roles expected to be filled internally from the pool of 145 guys who were laid off.

Cityjet: has also told unions that it’s seeking as many as 700 layoffs across Europe, with 276 in Ireland and the UK affected

Logan Air: Staggered furlough system for April and May, depending on base. Some bases one month furlough, other bases two. Talks of extending furlough to July. Currently skeleton schedule, nearly all props on PSO routes. All staff taken 20% pay cut until July.
Update July: Return to flying much slower than anticipated. JRS will continue to be used for it’s entire duration. Those returning to work will be on full pay. Volunteers sought for extended furlough, part-time work, or unpaid leave as mitigation. August 2020: Terminations and redundancies started. P45s received in post, with no communication from management as to why.
Update Dec: Phase 1 redundancies: roughly 30 pilot redundancies already made (mostly consisting of Chester ERJ crew). This number excludes many pilots terminated on grounds of “contractual frustration” during the summer.

Pilots also forced to accept reduction of contractual notice period to statutory notice period (1 week per year of service. Some pilots on as little as 1 week notice). Pilots given a choice between acceptance, or putting themselves at risk of redundancy.

Phase 2 redundancies: Roughly 70 pilots from all bases and fleets being earmarked for future redundancy, based on business outlook for S21. Recovery = redundancy withdrawn and they keep their jobs. No recovery = redundancy.

Ryanair: 50% reduction in basic. Reality varies greatly depending on base country, Italy allegedly pays 80% of salary, Spain much less so, 1000 to 2000 euro a month.
May 19th BALPA RYR announce: 336 jobs to go 185 CPT / 151 FOs.
Jul 1st: 20% pay cut approved by over 90% of BALPA members allegedly, to be restored by 2024, on the assumption of jobs being protected.
​​​
Ryanair Buzz/Lauda: guaranteed Flight allowance is 12 hrs ínstead of 40 hrs. Sign the new contract or you're out. Not sure what this totals as but I'm guessing not great. More info? 43 alleged redundancies so far, cadets and direct entries. Closing VIE base after threatening crews with lower contracts that the union rejected, 300 pilots to go.

Norweigen: overseas crewing companies declared bankrupt. Just 7 a/c keep flying through April 2021, in Scandinavia. Cut the LH fleet by 50% (at least) 40-50 aircraft less means a lot of base closures to come.

SAS: laying off 50% of its staff (5000 employees).
pilots in Sweden are on 92,5 % salary, subsidised by the state. Notice period is six months, also paid. Norway no pay if furloughed, govt support up to approx. 60% pay. Depends on your wages the last 12 months - if you are new, then approx. 15-25% pay. 14 days to 6 months notice period, paid. Denmark: 78% pay, between 1 to 11 months notice period.
Update July: 559 pilots let go.

Wizz: 265 total pilot redundancies in April, 142 contractors. Apparently already recruiting for Abu Dhabi base on very poor contracts.

TAP (Air Portugal) : April until July 90% of the Pilots at home with 66% average monthly net. Portuguese Social Security Paid 2/3 up to a max of 1905 Euro. Company at their own initiative paid a complement to reach 66% monthly net (by portugueses labor law they didn't had to).
From August until December 2020 20% (A320 fleet) or 30% (A330 feet) duty reduction.
Company pays 70% or 80% basic salary plus 100% flight allowances (for te guys flying). Portuguese Social Security pays 66% of the remaining 20%,30%, witch means that on the 320 Pilots get 93,2% net, and on the 330 89,8% net. Either you fly or don't fly.
Company is keeping all Pilots current and qualified (Refresher course, LPC, OPC, Line checks, medical).
Update Dec: 500 threatened with REDUNDANCY by the company, so far unknown criteria to be used

KLM/AF: Full salaries. All pilots with a French contract and paying social contributions are on 84% of their net basic salary: state furlough scheme up to 5400€. That includes Easyjet, Vueling, Volotea, Travel Service, etc... For AF, the company pays the difference so everyone receives their basic salary.

Lufthansa:

Flydubai:
​​​​
Emirates: 50% pay cut on basic salary for April, May and June. Accommodation allowance Advances not renewed and will only be paid at the monthly rate.
Redundancies: All pilots on probation plus for now an additional 100 approx. Total number laid off is around 200. Across 380 and 777. 14 days notice, additional 30 days to get out of the country.
9/6/20 - 599 redundancies today in brutal fashion: Reported 400 from A380, 200 from B777 with a further 300 to come, seniority worthless, high percentage of those fired had sickness records.
8th July: another 840 pilots facing the bullet, rumors of another 700 to come. Rumors of a small fleet of 250 pilots to remain on the A380. Emiratization in full effect.
​​​​
Qatar: new (permanent) 25% basic salary reduction plus 25% flight pay reduction.
Tomorrow they’ll start sending the letters for Captain, First officers and second officers that will leave the company. July: 787/350 Cpts and FOs being fired in the hundreds, seemingly at random, seniority worthless as at EK.

The Unmentionable: last year around 2200 pilots..

Over the year they reduced to 1800 by showing sick and low attendance the door.
This (July) another 400 including all 60plus and expat second officers or junior FO’s who have yet to convert their MPL’s to usable licences, pay back their bonds, or accrue much of an EOSB, an alarming amount of female captains, 90% of the FI’s that came across from the academy to mainline, and then a smattering or entirely random individuals who sit in the upper parts of the seniority list.

Saudia: About 50 first officers and about 45 captains prematurely terminated. All foreigners.

Oman Air: has terrminated around 200 pilots and hundreds of cabin crew. All terminated pilots are expats, locals are safe.
All expats in the company are on a 80% salary cut while locals have a reduction from 0 to 20% depending on their basic salary.

ANA:

Air Japan:

Korean Air: expat pilots April, May and June off with no pay. Contracts on renewal mostly not renewed. Koreans on 50-70% pay?

Update, 30th June all expat FOs, all expat 737 captains, all A380 captains and any expat in training now terminated.

Cathay Pacific: 747 fleet flat out and on full pay (unless you volunteered for unpaid leave), 777 and Airbus passenger fleets on varying stages of unpaid leave, or if you're London or Oz based, furloughed.
Update Dec: legacy contracts ripped up and new contract offered to all crew, sign or see yourself put. Over 95% of crew have accepted new deal to avoid unemployment.

China: All foreign pilots on indefinite unpaid leave. Feel free to post individual airline examples. Further info incoming.

DHL: Full rosters and pay!

CargoLux:

Turkish Airlines: Under the new contract, the airline will cut approximately 35% of wages, returning to 2018 levels. The airline will not increase salaries in 2021. Additionally, the airline employees will not be able to receive bonus payments until 2022.
Update Dec: all expat pilots on indeffinete UPL?
​​​​​
West Atlantic UK - Full rosters, full pay. Some pilots even working days off last month.

Add airlines not on the list, or post corrections or expansions on any info above, and I will try and update it when able.

[DooblerChina]

TUI UK: furlough scheme 30k/year plus half the difference between furlough and salary. Therefore 100k normal salary is now 65k. No redundancies at present but talk just started of leaner operation next year so who knows.

When flying resumes, people will
come back in batches in seniority order, and back to full pay.

[ChrisE]

BAW - 4 weeks unpaid leave, 2 weeks in April, 2 weeks in May, with the ULV salary reduction spread over 3 months. More ULV could be coming.

[bex88]

ChrisE: I hope you are right on the continuation of ULV. Not because it is brilliant but because it avoids the CR and buys everyone more time.

[TBSC]

SAS: laying off 50% of its staff (5000 employees).

[The Foss]

ChrisE: I hope you are right on the continuation of ULV. Not because it is brilliant but because it avoids the CR and buys everyone more time.

Agreed, keep kicking the can as long as we can until we have a clearer picture of the post Covid world.

[PositiveGhostrider]

I like the idea of this thread but may I suggest changing the title to something less analogical? Hopefully the value of this thread will prove itself in the longer term, reason why I think we should make it as easy as possible to retrieve it in the future with the search function. Just a suggestion, otherwise great iniative OP!

[SkyRocket10]

In no particular order:

BA: 2 weeks unpaid in each of APR & MAY, spread over 3 months. Works out to 69% for APR, MAY & JUN. Pension redirection into pay is available upon request. This adds ~21%​​​​​​

BA expecting to reduce aircraft numbers by 20% compared to pre-covid levels. There has already been talk of upto 800 pilot redundancies by a sky news correspondent on twitter . Whether this is true or not, it certainly ties up with the figure quoted by management. Tough times ahead!

[Flying Clog]

Cathay Pacific - 747 fleet flat out and on full pay (unless you volunteered for unpaid leave), 777 and Airbus passenger fleets on varying stages of unpaid leave, or if you're London or Oz based, furloughed.

[Captain Spam Can]

Easyjet. 3 options you can choose from.

1. 2 Months unpaid leave April/May then full pay assuming no more furlough. Government £2.5k.

2. 50% salary advance spread over 4 months. Then full pay.

3. 67% salary advance Spread over 6 months. Then full pay.

Options 2 and 3 include government £2.5k with the difference been made up by EZY to make the percentage. So months April and May you are in effect “borrowing money from future earnings” go back in June BUT you will receive that same percentage you selected over said period so it’s spread out.

This agreement was all assuming if we went back to flying June. Otherwise renegotiations for furlough extension which looks likely come end of May, which results in the above deals been extended over a longer period.

[DuneMentat]

EK: 50% pay cut on basic salary for April, May and June. Accommodation allowance Advances not renewed and will only be paid at the monthly rate.

[Trossie]

How many airlines are still on full pay?

Whitemonk Returns has mentioned one (or part of that airline). I suspect that two others that he had listed, but with no info, may be similar?

[deltahotel]

DHL. Full rosters and pay

[172_driver]

SAS: laying off 50% of its staff (5000 employees).

Until the actual notice of termination pilots in Sweden are on 92,5 % salary, subsidised by the state.
Thereafter the notice period is six month, also paid.

[teej013]

BA : Sky News just announced IAG are to make 12,000 redundant at British Airways.

[crunchingnumbers]

Well this is bad news in Argentina - BBC (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-52450654)

Hope no one else takes that lead.

[Fly747]

Cathay Pacific - 747 fleet flat out and on full pay (unless you volunteered for unpaid leave), 777 and Airbus passenger fleets on varying stages of unpaid leave, or if you're London or Oz based, furloughed.
More to hit the fan today when the HKAOA meet the company. Not looking rosy.

[AtoZ]

Korean Air expat pilots April, May and June off with no pay now extended to indefinite LWOP. Contracts on renewal mostly (but not all) not renewed.
Koreans on 50% company pay plus further 20% pay from Korean government. Koreans working part time.

Over 60s terminated?

Update, 30th June all expat FOs, all expat 737 captains, all A380 captains and any expat in training now terminated.

[Wi Tu Lo]

All pilots with a french contract (actually employed by an airline with a french contract and paying social contributions) are on 84% of their net basic salary, paid for by the state furlough scheme up to 5400€. That includes Easyjet, Vueling, Volotea, Travel Service, etc...

For AF, the company pays the difference so everyone receives their basic salary.

[Bison321]

Aer Lingus

All pilots on 50% part time, April, May and June.

900 company wide redundancies (20% of workforce).

No pilot redundancies so far among the 150 junior pilots (20%), depends if it can be offset by voluntary severance, unpaid leave and part time. More comprehensive agreement in the next few weeks.

[NorthernSeeker]

UPDATE SAS: Norway no pay if furloughed, governmental support up to approx. 60% pay. Depends on your wages the last 12 months - if you are new, then approx. 15-25% pay. 14 days to 6 months notice period, paid. Changes to 6 months are 6 months of employment.
Denmark: 78% pay, between 1 to 11 months notice period.

[Three Lions]

So would one indicator of a good employer be one who would look to share the pain across the patch rather than casting any individual onto the rocks below?

if so then I’d have to say and I admit it has surprised me, that Ryanair seems to have come good when it came right down to the real nitty gritty of it all, if of course rumours of a shared hit rather than making forced redundancies are true.

So maybe now is a very a good time to compare which outfit chose to share the pain and keep everyone safe and which decided to sling employees onto the rocks below. I’d suggest this is a good time to analyse who actually are the employers of choice.

To be used as a reference of course when things pick up and the better candidates are looking where to trust their career going forward. Now is the time to take note of the character and culture of an organisation as they are all being forced to show what they are all about

So who cut pilots adrift and who took a cut across the board?

Of course, my thoughts with any one involved in an unwanted job loss. Stay strong.

[PilotLZ]

"The Hall of Shame" on eurocockpit.be was intended to provide an insight into the very worst examples of mistreatment of personnel during crisis. However, some of its materials are no longer valid as more considerate arrangements have been reached at RYR and other carriers, protecting all the jobs or the majority of them. Needless to say though, many of the airlines who proved to be a bad example of crisis management have not been listed. And the struggle in many is not even known on a large scale since they're not big and famous enough to make newspaper headlines.

[Whitemonk Returns]

I have updated the list with what I personally am aware of so if people want to add more they can PM me or post on here as appropriate. I personally do not believe that we will be looking back here in 2024 and thanking RYR for their incredibly generous offer of paycuts for the next 4 years when they clearly didn't want to get rid of any pilots in the first place, but I would be happy to be proven wrong, and I am glad that no more pilots are facing redundancy today 👍

Edit: Company names in bold is an indication of direct info from posts or PMs, keep em coming and best of luck to all.

[aviationvictim]

thank god someone on this tread sees things how the actually are. I swear I can hear O’Leary laugh all the way down here in southern France🤨

[nickler]

Any (educated ?) guess on which operator will be the first to clear all the furloughing and resume hiring pilots ?
My take is, based on available web info, 2023 ?

[PilotLZ]

It's anyone's guess. Certainly some amount of hiring here and there will take place well before 2023. Some limited recruitment takes place even now - mostly for corporate or special operations though. What are your individual chances of getting a job within the next year depends on a huge number of factors, starting with the development of the situation globally and in your region of interest and ending with your qualifications, experience, personality and connections.

[SEBBES]

New Agreement reached between the company and CC.

Zero redundancies. Zero long term changes to terms and conditions. All pilots 80% pay for 80% work rate from 1st of November. Staged recovery then based on commercial operation/requirements, going to 90% pay for 90% work rate and finally returning to full pay and 100% work rate by 31st October 2021.

Only when all pilots within base, seat, and rank, have had the opportunity to be stage 1 recalled, can stage 2 recalls begin.
Voluntary exit pathway also created for Cpts on pay point 20 or above.

Yearly pay increments as per previous pay deal maintained.

Subject to ballot result soon.

[Whitemonk Returns]

That's a wonderful result, I have many friends at TUI so I am happy to hear it, update re Loganair also in the list
👍

[bringbackthe80s]

Good on the company

[MrKipling]

Good on the pilots, they are paying for it and voted for it. Probably not sustainable though going forward as they are massively over crewed.
it would have been have been nice if all companies had tried the same.

[guy_incognito]

When you say "massively over crewed", do you mean in the immediate term, or for the planned summer 2021 schedule?

[MrKipling]

What is the 2021 schedule for any airline?
Sorry I cant answer your question because my info is second hand, I was told TUI was over crewed before caronavirus.

I was simply saying well done the pilots, they took one for the team so to speak.

[hans brinker]

Great effort. For the lazy (me...) can we have the list alphabetized?
thanks!!

[H44]

Why would TUI have been over crewed before coronavirus? They took on 100+ Thomas cook pilots so they would have sufficient crews for a pre-covid summer 20 season, not to mention a handful of third party contracts. Indeed they were still recruiting when things ground to a halt in March. They’re obviously over-crewed now but are hoping if things pick up for summer 21 that they’ll have the correct number of pilots for that.

[macdo]

If you remember, TUI and J2 recruited heavily on the back of previously planned and opportunistic growth after the demise of TCG. Added to that the return to service of the MAX they had a need for crews. The current situation has left them with too many pilots but they have done a great job of avoiding redundancies. So far.

[Whitemonk Returns]

Some positive news from Jet2, while 70% salaries is now extended from Dec to April, barring unforseen circumstances 100% of pre Covid salaries proposed to be reinstated for all crew from April 2021 👍

[Biffsticksuperhero]

Someone is getting their Aprils fools in early :8

[Whitemonk Returns]

Phase 1 redundancies: roughly 30 pilot redundancies already made (mostly consisting of Chester ERJ crew). This number excludes many pilots terminated on grounds of “contractual frustration” during the summer.

Pilots also forced to accept reduction of contractual notice period to statutory notice period (1 week per year of service. Some pilots on as little as 1 week notice). Pilots given a choice between acceptance, or putting themselves at risk of redundancy.

Phase 2 redundancies: Roughly 70 pilots from all bases and fleets being earmarked for future redundancy, based on business outlook for S21. Recovery = redundancy withdrawn and they keep their jobs. No recovery = redundancy. This is all whilst being on statutory notice. Selection of those earmarked based on performance. (At any time in the future, those selected may be terminated with as little as one week’s notice).

BALPA trying their best to fight the company over the legality, morality, and mental health impact of what they are doing. Company playing hard and fast and unwilling to change stance, believing ends justify the means and it is vital to their survival

[Rt Hon Jim Hacker MP]

Biffsticksuperhero.

Really? What can you tell us?

[Biffsticksuperhero]

:} Its only a bit of "tongue in cheek"

However, It will be interesting to see if it actually happens. Im hoping it will for everyone there, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

[TheAirMission]

You can amend the easyJet section: 220 FOs and Captains made redundant in Germany last week.

[dirk85]

So far 69 CP, 76 FO, 76 PU and 197 FA were fired.

[MrKipling]

So it's been a year since lockdown which airlines got it right so far? Jet2 in hibernation still although apparently are financially well placed.

Tui still hanging on by a thread massively in debt still with no redundancies.

Virgin and BA recalling pilots?

Wizz seems business as usual.

Anyone else?

[Denti]

As far as i know TUI Germany will reduce its fleet by more than 50% and has already fired the personnel for that fleet, using Smartlynx and similar ACMI companies instead of its own aircraft for the german market.

[Biffsticksuperhero]

Jet2 financials are full of smoke and mirrors. Who even knows their REAL financial position. Their share price looks seriously inflated.

“Tui holding on by a thread” is complete nonsense also, this debt is owed by a multi conglomerate, which makes BILLIONS a year not just millions like jet2. The debt is a lot but manageable, and it’s also to the German government which has helped, a damn sight more than this shower is 💩 we have here in the UK.

hopefully the end is in sight now, and that all these companies survive.

[deltahotel]

DHL doing fine

[Jwscud]

BA I don’t believe are recalling pilots, that’s duff gen.

[MrKipling]

I'm presuming the crunch will come for UK pilots when furlough stops. Which is when the management will be wanting more from the pilots to support the businesses.

Don't be too sure about TUI Biffstick. or any if the big companies, none are too big to fail. Debt has to be repaid and summer 2021 is looking like a none event. There are going to be changes. Now would be a great time to set an airline up, cheap aircraft and crews are everywhere.

[Whitemonk Returns]

Jet2 had promised steady rise from 70% to 80% salary for all pilots from July and back to 100% by October... Unsurprisingly they have backtracked and now it's 70% until October and we will have a chat then. The share price is inflated.

On the plus side we now have SIM instructors crying to the company they are working too hard and deserve to be paid more for the effort. Must be tough surviving on 100k in lockdown....

So yeah, things are basically going back to normal!

[Fly Better!]

Are Jet2 still paying pilots the government furlough pay? I think MrKipling has a point with crunch time being when the furlough payments stop.

I dont think it will be just airlines either, there will be plenty of other companies letting people go.

TUI didnt let anyone go which was a result for all the boys and girls who wern't even rated but have been paid for the last year, nice work if you can get it.

Glad I'm out of it, best of luck chaps.

[Whitemonk Returns]

​​​​​​
JET2: 70% of basic salary for all pilots so the company have taken the furlough money and basically topped up all salaries for the last 14 months. Missive out today that they will review the backtrack on increasing pay in August if demand has increased with the traffic light system. Also insisting there are no further planned redundancies as all pilots will be needed for 2022. Pilot apprentices who were let go have also rejoined the company recently. Hopefully the 100 or so ex TCX pilots who were let go will be offered the chance to rejoin in spring next year.

[HEJT2015]

MrKipling

BA are not recalling any pilots. Those made redundant are hoping for a return late 2022/23.

[Whitemonk Returns]

Large Fractional bizjet company"
Asked not to name them directly via PM....Initially 120 pilots, 50 flight attendants made redundant with double pay in May 2020. That extra pay came from the donations of the remaining flight crew. The demand was so high during summer 2020 that the pilots and cabin crew were offered their jobs back on their old pay/fleet/rank. Happily the boss was fired. The donated pay was returned to the flight crew by the company. The returnees kept all their redundancy pay.Apart from the above, no crews had their pay docked, no 50% rosters or other redundancies. All bonuses paid.No furloughs.

[Globally Challenged]

And the Union surprised us with a significantly improved performance bonus scheme introduced for this summer

[DjerbaDevil]

Whitemonk Returns

If only this was true. You are forgetting the 50 or so JET2 pilots based in Spanish bases at Palma, Mallorca and Alicante. All these pilots were placed on the Spanish furlough in April 2020, where the employee is paid out a maximum of €1,000 per month and maximum allowances for dependents of €500 per month. These furlough amounts are taxable and Social Security contributions are also deducted. JET2 made a take it or leave it offer of €2,000 per month top up, on top of the Spanish furlough monthly payment, which top up is also gross and taxable. The average take home monthly amount a JET2 Spanish based pilot takes home is not much more than about €2,000 net per month, which equates to about 20% of his normal salary. There is considerable hardship being experienced by these pilots and the future prospects look grim with the possibility of returning to full employment and pay even at 70% looking to be too far in the future. The Spanish furlough arrangements are due to end at the end of September and it is doubtful the Spanish Government will extend the arrangement beyond that date. If you have a family, mortgage and maybe a bank loan, having your salary reduced by 30% makes the going tough, so just imagine how the JET2 Spanish based pilots are having to cope right now, since April 2020.....and the foreseeable future.

[Whitemonk Returns]

DD: you are correct, the Spanish arm had slipped my mind my apologies. It is very unfortunate how that has played out and while Jet2 definitely carry some blame the lower generosity of the Spanish furlough scheme must take the majority of it. Not what people want to hear but it is the truth, hopefully we all get back flying in 2022 and can hang on until then because these Muppets in Whitehall seem determined to ruin this summer aswell

[UKcrowpilot]

Unfortunately, I suspect there's going to be a lot of updates to this thread over the next 3-4 months given the UK Governments attitude towards aviation being so juxtaposed to the rest of Europe/US.

[Whitemonk Returns]

I tend to disagree, the clowns in charge aside there is not really enough time now for employers to do much more damage. Any further redundancies in the UK would require 3 months notice, so that would bring us to Octoberish time by which point any airline hoping to fly a large percentage of their airplanes for 2022 will need the crews and won't want to let them go because you can be sure RYR or the like will be waiting to take them.

The cynic might say it was the plan all along from up high to string the industry along the whole time with vague promises of a summer season, in the knowledge that it would limit redundancies. By the time the reality hits in a few weeks, the more eager accountants will hopefully have run out of time to do their worst.

[Biffsticksuperhero]

Pretty ballsy plan. Not sure our government has the brains for something that clever.

[MrKipling]

Whitemonk Returns

I disagree, I've heard this argument before. There is a glut of type rated pilots. It doesn't take long to get a pilot back on line if they are fairly current right now, after all airlines don't recruit until the winter ready for summer.

That said I presume TUI will be in this situation, they kept everyone on. One has to wonder if the DFO had an ulterior motive as his ex colleagues are in the firing line if they start laying people off at this late stage.

It looks like Jet2 made the right decision to delay a return to flying and again after yesterday's new have delayed yet again. Empty aircraft are no good to anyone. I'm just hoping their plan will keep the airline healthy once things pick up.

It's a nightmare.

[Biffsticksuperhero]

MrKipling

Not sure how you think Jet2 have made the right decision in this. At least Tui are operating some flights and generating some financials in charter, cargo and pax. Can’t be cheap grounding all your aircraft for an extra 9 weeks with no income and massive mortgages to pay for.
I see the Jet2 coolaid is still very much a thing. You’ve got to wonder how much longer they can hold onto books. Not that I want them to reduce in size or make redundancies.

This whole thing about how great Jet2 is vs other operators is starting to be like a cult. They’re not amazing. No company is, especially at the moment.

[Dct_Mopas]

I agree Whitemonk, not really time to make normal redundancies. Sadly it’s now highly probable that we might lose jobs to companies going bankrupt rather than job cuts.

Some have cashflow coming in from European arms/ flying (EZY Europe/Swiss, IAG, RYR). But others? Really hope all airlines can make it to next summer.

[DjerbaDevil]

Whitemonk Returns

Perhaps the Spanish pilots slipped your mind 'cos your financial situation isn't a disaster but to say that the fault lies with the lack of generosity of the Spanish furlough scheme can only be described as a possible attempt to insult my intelligence. The UK furlough scheme is paid to the employer up to a maximum of £2,500 per month and JET2 are paying their UK pilots 70% of their salaries. For the sake of simplicity assuming a monthly salary of £10,000 per month, JET2 gets £2,500 and pays out of the JET2 bank account 70% of the salary or £7,000, of which JET2 have been paid £2,500 by the UK government. This means that JET2 are out of pocket by £4,500 (£7,000 salary at 70% less £2,500 UK furlough scheme). Evidently and according to the foregoing figures JET2 is only meeting 45% of the hypothetical £10,000 monthly wage, due to the reduction of salaries by 30% and the contribution of £2,500 from the UK furlough scheme.

If there wasn't any specific discrimination intended of the JET2 Spanish based pilots, then a similar offer of meeting 45% of their original salaries the same as the UK pilots would seem to have been fair and would have been gladly accepted. As things stand one of the important financial supports of JET2 are the Spanish based pilots and their sacrifice won't even be appreciated, when this is all over.

[Whitemonk Returns]

DjerbaDevil
​​​​​​
I don't disagree with you. It's shameful and I can assure you there are plenty of UK based Jet2 pilots who are also struggling. The fact is that the Spanish pilot contracts were part time, most hadnt been in the company very long (I say most I know there are plenty who have) and it is easier for the company to treat them differently and not destroy the relationship with the UK pilot group. I'm not saying I agree with it but that's the situation at hand.

As for the Jet2 'coolaid' comment, I have flown for many airlines and at every one of them there have been a large percentage of the workforce who think the company is the best thing since sliced bread, despite all evidence to the contrary. The reality is always somewhere in the middle to differing degrees. Keep the updates coming, I will post the PMs as they come in as always. May the next few months be kind to us all.

[MrKipling]

No business is perfect I agree, and I'm not saying Jet2 is dealing with things better than anyone else, time will tell. I think comparing Jet2 to TUI is an interesting exercise as they are direct competitors in many ways.

Times are hard for all pilots so this is an emotive subject. Redundancy payments only need to be paid if an employee has more than 2 years service. Last year both airlines had employees that didn't have 2 years service. TUI kept their pilots employed on more than just furlough pay even though many were not rated. They have been taking on new aircraft and running command courses. Jet2 have done almost the opposite.

Flying empty aircraft around costs more money than parking them up. Freight is a good use of the airframes though.

One of the companies is billions in debt the other not so much. One company seems to have been over optimistic the other more pessimistic perhaps.

So which managers got it right?

Let's see how it pans out. Best of luck to all.

[AirUK]

Perhaps this can be explained by the fact that one of the companies is a global business with many assets and a FY2019 revenue of 18.9-billion Euros, the other not so much.

But all of that pails into insignificance when we have such an inept government intent on destroying our industry. Good luck to all - no matter the company, I think we all need it now.

[MrKipling]

Global business or not, debt is debt, turnover means nothing either it's profits at the end of the day. All those shiny new aircraft and cruise ships need paying for.

Obviously parking aircraft up and hibernating costs money, but less than flying aircraft that aren't full.

It's all a :mad: show no matter what your point of view.

[Vokes55]

debt is debt.

But not all debt is equal. Being in debt to the government is very different to being in debt to the banks, especially to the German government who aren't hell bent on destroying the aviation industry.


One of the companies is billions in debt the other not so much. One company seems to have been over optimistic the other more pessimistic perhaps..

One is completely exposed to the decisions of the UK government, the other (and every other UK airline for that matter) is not. TUI, easyJet, Ryanair, Wizzair and IAG will all let their European operations drag the UK part through to the day when common sense finally prevails here. Virgin (and IAG) have built up a solid cargo operation which is seeing them through. Jet2 don't have any of that.

TUI and Jet2 may be direct competitors here, but they are fundamentally different companies as a whole. There's no point comparing their respective decisions to restart or not. It was easier for TUI to restart as they have resort staff, hotels and infrastructure in place to cater for the European factions that have had much fewer restrictions placed on them by their respective governments. TUI DE, NL and BE are more or less back up to a full schedule, with only a few destinations currently off limits.

I do believe the outlook is a lot rosier now though, for reasons highlighted by people above. The world is reopening, and unlike last year, jobs are starting to pop up. Any redundancies are unlikely at this stage due to the requirements for Summer 22, and any redundancies that are made won't necessarily spell the end of one's career.

[MrKipling]

Good points we'll made. I still wonder how the decisions will affect the pilot workforce going forward. The debt has to be paid and the quicker the balance sheet is in the green the quicker the pilots can return to the new normal. Whatever that ends up being.

You can bet the amount of debt will be used to drive cuts in terms and conditions. If the companies need the pilots then they should have to pay for them not the workforce.

[DjerbaDevil]

Whitemonk Returns

You appear to have got it wrong yet again. Only the PMI based pilots are part time. The ALC based pilots are full time. It is also not true that many have not been in employment with JET2 very long, as some are very experienced and similar to any base in the UK. JET2 paying their pilots in Spain 2,000 euros a month is discriminatory and taking full advantage of the present COVID-19 situation, where there is no other employment elsewhere . Saying it is simpler for JET2 to prejudice the overseas based pilots to avoid destroying the relationship with the UK pilot group speaks volumes and certainly not particularly favourable of the management at JET2.

[Whitemonk Returns]

I have tried to be diplomatic with you so far but considering you keep going I'll tell you the truth because you seem to have not figured it out yet. Nobody gives a damn about the Spanish based pilots and they never will. Nobody. Pre Covid they had a cushy number and never hesitated to brag about it, now they are getting screwed over. Life is not fair. JET2 management don't care, BALPA don't care and despite recognising the wrongness of what has happened, by and large the UK pilot group don't care either. I am sorry that any pilot from any company is struggling right now, JET2 Spanish pilots are doing far better than the many unemployed guys out there right now.
​​​​

[excrab]

As a member of the Jet2 U.K. pilot group could I please disassociate myself, and probably the majority of Jet2’s pilots from Whitemonk’s Comments.
Rather than not caring, I wasn’t aware of the difference in pay during the pandemic. I was aware that the Spanish government contribution was lower, but had, wrongly, assumed that the Company would have at least paid the same in top up payments to the Spanish based pilots. It is also totally wrong of Whitemonk to say that BALPA don’t care, BALPA cannot represent the Spanish pilots, or at least that is my understanding, as they are a U.K. union.

To put things in perspective, Jet2 have been surprisingly generous to the workforce who they have kept on during the pandemic, more so than many would have expected. However, apart from a bi-weekly email bulletin reminding us to let the APU cool down before turning off the battery, communication from Management have been lacking; unless you know anyone in the Spanish bases there is no way to know what is happening, but the fact that a large number of those transferring to the Bristol base are apparently coming from ALC presumably says something about the situation (and Brexit, possibly).

[Whitemonk Returns]

Over a year into this and you weren't aware of the discrepancy, proves my point exactly.

[excrab]

No, it just proves that I don’t know anyone based there, as it certainly wasn’t publicised by management.

[Three Lions]

It was my understanding this thread was for comparison to keep everyone abreast of the wider playing field. It seems to have turned into a bit of a sniping shop. And more recently a blue-on-blue (or should that be red on red) bicker fest.

Maybe best for all concerned the Jet2 fraternity may create a specific airline thread to help overcome, from what an outsider view would suggest, is possibly poor company comms (apologies if I’ve read it wrongly but that is certainly how it’s coming across to an outsider) and help keep this thread clean and as happy as is possible during these uncertain times

Many across all airlines are clearly concerned for their jobs and also many are actually out of jobs including some who have been made redundant in the last year and threads like these will attract those perhaps needing a bit of upbeat good news about the great job on various levels the different airlines are doing in very difficult circumstances to support employees, and this with the confusing governmental handling of the sector through the pandemic. As if it wasn’t challenging enough.

The airlines are hanging in there and in addition there may be new start ups too. So put the bickering and one-upmanship aside and try play your part in keeping everyone’s head up during this very difficult period for all.

Time to hang onto each other not look to batter someone from a different airline. Or your own. Even.

Green shoots of recovery and good examples of company support which are clearly widespread, are definitely worth sharing. But maybe best to keep the sniping behind closed doors.

Good luck guys and gals, hang in there. Whoever you work for.

[Trossie]

It doesn't take long to get a pilot back on line if they are fairly current right now,


How many pilots are "fairly current" right now?

I suspect that Delta Hotel is amongst the only lot at are anywhere near that!

[PilotLZ]

A reality check is in order for those who underestimate the difficulty of getting this many people back on board. Many of those who will hopefully be brought back into the game in the coming year will have spent anywhere between 18 and 30 months on the ground, often out of a job and hence not entitled to any recurrent training. At best, they will have their type rating and medical; everything else will have lapsed. Think all the courses like CRM, Dangerous goods, Fatigue risk management etc. Even their Crew IDs will likely no longer be good - and those are not easy to obtain in many countries. There's more than one place where a bottleneck can form. Even if we assume excellent availability of ground courses and sim slots, what about line training and checking? There are only that many trainers in an airline (and not all of them are current themselves, to begin with). It will be a massive effort, taking anywhere between a few weeks for a small operation with a handful of aircraft and many months for the large companies with dozens of aircraft.

[deltahotel]

Trossie. Sadly I suspect much truth in that. And my colleagues of course.

[FlightDetent]

[...] the difficulty of getting this many people back on board. [...] Think all the courses [...] Just adding: physical SIM availability. Instead of the typical 4 + 4 hours for a two crewmember team, we're looking at a minimum of 4 + 4 + 4 + 2, adding OCC re-training session and LVP. That's 175% SIM capacity, once airlines need to re-train en-masse. Creawting a backlog of 4 months while at 6 months the next standard cycle arrives. Whooops.

Line training is a major headache as mentioned. Not only for the limited amount of trainers which can be arranged rather quickly (EASA = even line check just need an appointed "auditor", not TRI/E) but more because of lack of flights. Training 80% of people over 30% of schedule does not have a solution.

[bringbackthe80s]

This you are talking about is the reason why some airlines (non European for the most part) have kept current and on payroll all their pilots. They want to ensure the livelihood of their colleagues and at the same time betting on being ready 100% when and if things seriously pick up again.
There is no way to hire, train and keep people once and if things seem to pick up.
I for one really hope that companies who are doing this will benefit big time, and take the biggest possible market slice when and if we get to the other side.

Having said all this, if this madness starts again next autumn then..

[FlightDetent]

(and non Far-East Asian almost completely)

[MrKipling]

Trossie

sorry current isn't the right term, I meant not needing a full rating or much time in the sim.

After all its not likely that over the space of a few weeks we are going to suddenly be back at 100% work rate are we?

obviously the ideal situation is for the airlines to be crewed 100% and ready to go ..... but who's going to pay for that? I will put money (no pun intended, well maybe a bit) that they will expect pilots to take up to 50% pay cuts because they are strapped for cash.

[SaulGoodman]

Why not do 1 month full time followed by 2 months off? I know of a 737 airline that does that in order to keep every pilot current. If you are on a pax 747 of A380 obviously this doesn’t work…

[guy_incognito]

This is all a bit academic at least with respect to UK airlines.

The UK government has made it clear that international travel will not be permitted to return in any meaningful sense: the official line is that as long as there's a "threat of variants", a cautious approach will be taken (i.e. forever). In other words, the idea that foreign travel will ever return to 2019 levels is pure fantasy. The days of an annual two week foreign holiday or visiting friends and relatives abroad are gone permanently.

[excrab]

They’ve probably not gone permanently, problem is that the U.K. government doesn’t care if U.K. airlines fly from the U.K. to Europe and back, or European Airlines fly from Europe to the U.K. then back to Europe, and nor will the customers, most of them will book their holidays on line and go for the cheapest option…

Its easy for Cabinet ministers to say to holiday in the U.K, they can afford the £thousands it now costs to book the few remaining decent holidays in Cornwall or wherever. Now far more expensive to go to St Ives than to Benidorm.

[Fly Better!]

Anyone from TUI confirm the rumour that they will be recruiting for summer 2022?

Friend of a friend says that the head of training is saying they need everyone and more for next year

[PilotLZ]

There were some ads for seasonal contracts in Belgium and France with them not long ago. As long as there won't be a new round of restrictions over the autumn and winter, there's every reason to believe that summer 2022 will be a reasonably good one.

[Banana Joe]

TUI in Belgium is a different kettle of fisb. Don't expect similat terms and conditions as with TUI in the UK or Germany, and expect lots of taxi trips.

Still better than jobless.

[PilotLZ]

Stobart Air is gone after failure of the repossession deal which was on the horizon in the past weeks, 480 staff affected. Deeply sorry for everyone involved.

[JliderPilot]

So sad for the Stobart Air crews. Also uncertain future for Carlisle airport.

[BWSBoy6]

A close relative is employed by a LoCo that recently just survived going over the edge. He is based in Southern Europe and has been informed that ‘some’ pilots will be recalled, based on seniority. He’s not hopeful as he’s only about halfway up the MSL although a few above him may well vote to accept a pay off that has finally been agreed with SEPLA. The airline are supposedly expanding operations in CPH and HEL so he has bid for those bases, although I suspect preference understandably will be given to locals, although he does hold an EU passport.

He has renewed his medical and license in the SIM last week in the hope that keeping current may be useful when things start moving again, but with the knock back from the latest variants, I suspect seniority will make little difference in the overall scheme of things.

[MrKipling]

Fly Better

second hand info but pilots were emailed the other day saying that the UK will be recruiting for 2022. 757 pilots are just going to be sat at home when it goes.

I guess more jobs for ex TCX maybe, wasn't one of the mangers ex tcx?

I guess it's good news whoever gets the job.

[Biffsticksuperhero]

MrKipling what is your beef with Tui? Did you fail an assessment or something? Since The DFO joined us, he’s been nothing short of a breathe of fresh air especially in these uncertain times.
The only fly in the TCX recruitment ointment was the possible “nepotism” feeling from certain BALPA members.

I sincerely hope Jet2 and Tui both survive this, but your drinking the coolaid is getting pretty tiresome.

[EPRman]

Mr Kipling,

There has been no email regarding TUI Airways pilot recruitment for 2022.

[Joe le Taxi]

It wasn't just balpa members that raised an eyebrow at that company specific intake. I don't know if it was illegal, but it certainly looked it.

[A321drvr]

Were there any other BALPA member pilots looking for employment with TUI other than ex-TCX? Pardon my question, but as long as a BALPA airline prefers BALPA members to be employed before other "street pilots" i don't see anything wrong with it. Of course if there were any other discrepancies like like not adhering to previous seniority numbers or calling "friends" over others first that's another story. No pun intended. Genuine question here.

[Kakpipe Cosmonaut]

EPRman

Unless you and I aren’t on the email list anymore!😱

[MrKipling]

Biffsticksuperhero

I don't really understand the term drinking the coolaid. I've never failed an assessment there either.

I simply repeated what I was told. If the info was wrong then please accept my apologies, this is after all the rumour network.

Regarding recruitment there in the past I did feel it was somewhat strange that rather than taking direct entry captains on who we already type rated (and there were plenty who would have applied, including from jet2) they took airbus rated pilots saddling themselves with a much bigger training bill rather than passing the rating costs on to their competitors.

So I take it that there is no recruitment planned then for 2022?

[Globally Challenged]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/jonestown-massacre-documentary-40-years-drink-kool-aid-jim-jones-what-happened-mass-suicide-cult-guyana-dead-a8232856.html

[MrKipling]

I was just being pedantic it was misspelt :)

[galley cart]

A321drvr

So is aviation becoming a closed shop now? BALPA only members get employed? What about pilots who are in the IPA or any other union or no union?

With regards to recruitment at TUI, I have it on good authority that to fly the plan in 2022 there would be a need for more pilots which is great news!

Off topic but the elephant in the room is already out of the bag: the recruitment of TCX DEC has caused a lot of bad feeling in the airline not least amongst those who were disadvantaged because of it. It might appear that BALPA had a big part to play in this not least because the chairman at the time of the CC wife was one of the ones employed (fact) but who knows? Well somebody does I guess. Im sure many of us have friends who lost their jobs at TCX, all I am sure very capable pilots who didnt get an interview, maybe they can try again for 2022?

Was it a sensible decision? Well if it was your business and you needed 50 captains to fly your boeings would you not look for rated pilots? After all type ratings arent cheap.

There is distrust amongst many of the pilots of the DFO who seems to be 'looking after his friends' and getting more than his fair share of flying which seems like a waste of resources when his time might be better spent doing his primary role. So as stated above, a breath of fresh air? I would say more of a dubious smell but some people like the smell of their own farts.

I'm sure the DFO is a smashing chap I just hope he isn't looking after his mates at the expense of business, but there is a lack of relevant communication so what do we know?

Posted from a new account because; well you know why.

[macdo]

I suppose in this highly stressful year it is inevitable that fear will drive people to think bad things. But it is worth remembering that when TCX went under, TUI were embarking upon expansion which they were going to struggle to fulfil if they had only promoted from within and recruited from low hours availability on the open market. Also worth a thought that at time, a mere 18m ago, there was a shortage of suitable candidates on that market. As you mention, if a well thought of, well trained, bunch of pilots were available, well, why not take them? At the time, it also was seen as hugely uplifting to see the union and a big employer working hard to tidy up the mess left by TCX. I have no doubt that the ramifications of that decision combined with Covid19 will be a drag on many pilots careers, especially those close to command and this will lead to dark muttering about collusion and favoritism. Its not going to help anyone, because the cause of the problem is outside the scope of any management.

[Sick]

Of course, that's complete nonsense - If TUI UK DEC recruitment had been publicly opened up, there would have been a deluge of applications from experienced type rated captains. That, and rumours of shameless nepotism added just one more item to the now very long list why I cancelled by balpa membership, (though a revelation that any balpa CC member could be self serving, would be a surprise to, well .... pretty much nobody)!

[galley cart]

I have to agree, I had friends with 2 decades plus of command time on the 737 asking why they couldn't apply. After all TUI is the place people want to work and long may it stay this way!

I also know plenty of very competent first officers at TUI who know the operation, have a proven track record, have been identified as command suitable and were ready to go.

[SID PLATE]

Galley Cart ..

" the elephant in the room is already out of the bag "

Outstanding metaphor there ... big bag then ?

[macdo]

Sick

If Tui had opened its recruitment to publicly, they would have indeed been inundated with applicants, can't argue with that. From an economic POV recruiting from the TCX pool was efficient and quality assured. Its so easy to forget the situation only 18 months ago where there was a real desire to help the unemployed pilots back into jobs. There were plenty that didn't get past application or the selection process.
Rumours without any proof are just that, rumours. Galley FM was never a good source to base an opinion or a decision.

[Johnny F@rt Pants]

Just having a Pprune catchup and I read this

Nobody gives a damn about the Spanish based pilots and they never will. Nobody.

I am certain that the vast majority of the Jet2 staff do not feel this way, these comments are despicable🤬

[galley cart]

I've just heard cabin crew at TUI are facing redundancies.
just to clarify this its to reduce the headcount during the winter months.

and Sid Plate, yes of course its a big bag, it had an elephant in it, and a cat.

[FlightDetent]

Some updated models

https://www.eurocontrol.int/publication/eurocontrol-forecast-update-2021-2024

[galley cart]

Bit of a shock today hearing that TUI are closing their Edinburgh base, even though yesterday balpa hinted that everything is just fine.

[Whitemonk Returns]

Via PM: Bad taste among the pilot community at what has come across as deception by the company. Company agreed via BALPA to back track yet again on increasing pay from the current 70%, the next day it emerges that cabin crew, engineers and managers will have their pay increased up to 90%. Initially company refused to comment but have recognised the distaste and sent out an email from the top explaining that pilots are essentially already getting too much and that they were losing people to non flying roles because the 70% pay was too low. Has pissed alot of people off particularly the trainers who have been working full time throughout. No choice but to accept for now but yet another own goal that will cost them crew once opportunities open up elsewhere.

[rotorwills]

More trouble at mill. Well it is what it is. Many are experiencing tough times, many tougher than our industry.
Just need to be able to deal with things. Life is tough for many, too many truth be told, but what can one do.

[Jaf4fa]

Hey Whitemonk, trying to make a story where there isn’t one. You should work for the media! Yes, there is an argument the trainers should have been paid more. I would not have argued against it. I also think being paid 75k a year to be sat on my @rse is not such a bad gig. Some pilots will not get back into a cockpit until next year. How can you pay an employee 100% for nearly 2 years when your outgoings far outweigh any monies received? Talking to many of my colleagues, we can see the pay will remain at less than 100% to at least 1 April next year. Do we want this, no. But at the end of the day, we will all have jobs. And when things do pick up, then I think that the company will want to thank us. Call me delusional🤪

[PilotLZ]

Indeed, what a "horrible" deal it is to be holding a job with a stable company and hardly doing any flying for "only" 70% of your salary... Think of what many pilots have been through in the past 15 months, with no clear end in sight, including TRIs, TREs, wide-body and narrow-body Captains with a five-digit number of hours etc. Then you might appreciate that it's actually not that bad.

[Biffsticksuperhero]

what airline can be described as “Stable” right now? 🤦🏼‍♂️

[Whitemonk Returns]

Jaf4fa

Yes you are delusional, the majority of the pilot body is on nowhere near 75k. And as for the thanking you part, well I'll let you figure that part out down the line.

[Jaf4fa]

Nearly £1387 million in the bank (not including customer money) after a £373.8m loss. That’s how stable😳

[Biffsticksuperhero]

sure, course they do. If you believe that 🤣

Sort of makes a mockery for the 102 pilot redundancies last year and the fact they’re increasing everyone’s pay apart from the non management pilot work force.

[guy_incognito]

We are talking about the published accounts of a PLC here, so I'm not sure why you wouldn't believe the numbers reported. The financial position of the company is frankly amazing considering the state of the industry.

I don't know anyone working for them so couldn't comment on the other stuff mentioned.

[Biffsticksuperhero]

I have 0 beef with Jet2 at all, I have friends who work there. But their numbers are seriously suspect. I’m not saying it’s fraud, but I don’t believe you’re getting the “real” figures.

How can a company who only makes roughly 100 million a year (approx), and who has had to pay off 65 brand new 737s in the last 5 years, and have 1 year of absolutely NO revenue, whilst opening new bases, all of a sudden have £1340million in the bank

I seriously hope they are financially ok, however I wouldn’t be sounding off saying they’re “stable” and safe.

[Brian Pern]

There is an explanation in the Preliminary report here:
"This liquidity has been raised from a diversified range of funding sources including: the utilisation of our £65m Revolving Credit Facility; the drawing down of the Bank of England's Covid Corporate Financing Facility ("CCFF") of £199m; the financing of unencumbered owned mid-life aircraft for £102m; the sale of Fowler Welch, our non-core Distribution & Logistics business, for gross proceeds of £99m; plus two oversubscribed equity placings raising gross proceeds of £594m, for which we are grateful to our Shareholders for their support. Post the financial year end on 31 May 2021, Jet2 plc signed a new unsecured £150m term loan maturing in September 2023 with its supportive Banking group. In addition, on 3 June 2021, the Company announced the successful issuance of £387m of senior unsecured Convertible Bonds due in 2026 carrying a coupon of 1.625%, the offering for which was heavily oversubscribed."

So yep, I believe they have the money, however.... £903 Million of it, almost two thirds, is Debt, the credit facility, the CCFF, the loan, the aircraft, and of course the senior unsecured Convertible Bonds.

[rotorwills]

Holey moley, and here I am worrying about my credit card statement.

I have a few of my old colleagues working there, employed at the moment but worried sick about their future, and I have serious desires for them to carry on as I use them for various holidays. However they look to be in a very precarious position and coupled with this government we have it must be of concern. Amazing how shareholders are supporting the company as their record of profitability is not exactly staggering. Fingers crossed that the support continues, it would be a major disaster if they folded. Could not imagine the carnage it would wrought in our industry.

We are in turbulent times, need to hold on, everyone and if appropriate say a few prayers.

[Atlantic Explorer]

Ouch! That’s going to be a tough winter for J2 and obviously every other airline on the go.

[The Flying Stool]

The announcement today that travel is permitted to amber list countries is a huge boost to the industry. Green list flights already operating have high load factors (for all operators). If Jet2 are flying, they arent spending any of that debt but are making money. It can sit in their account gathering interest and then be paid back in full when the payment becomes due.

To put that in perspective, when Thomas Cook went bust, they had liabilities of £1.5 billion. TUI currently have liabilities of 4.5 billion.

Rumour has it that Mr Meeson has visited both Seattle and Toulouse in recent days. Read in to that what you will.

[Biffsticksuperhero]

To put it in perspective, Tui is made of 5 airlines, 15 cruise ships and 380+ hotels paying back its liabilities, it owes more because it’s absolutely massive.
J2 is just 1 airline. So the debt ratio is higher and will take longer to repay its debts.

All this aside. Let’s hope this move forward gets everyone back working and both companies survive and thrive in the future.

[AirUK]

You’re spot on there Biff, people compare the two like-for-like, without realising Jet2 are small fry compared to the travel behemoth that is TUI. Jet2 are just an airline and an online travel agency.

[Brian Pern]

The Flying Stool

I would be careful, Thomas Cook UK had 80ish aircraft, similar to Jet2 and while they were multinational,Jet2 are currently £0.9 Billion in the red. The good news is the Amber list is now open, of course individual countries may yet decide to restrict UK tourists, that will remain to be seen. But this summer is a washout. It will be a tough ride ahead.
I do admire your optimism about visiting Boeing and Airbus, but as you say its a rumour

[Rt Hon Jim Hacker MP]

Thomas Cook UK didn’t have anything like 80 aircraft. I think there were around 30 in the fleet when it folded.

[MANTHR]

Brian Per

Really? What is your source to say that Jet2 is £0.9billion in the red? Latest financial reports indicate that they have a balance of £1.46billion in own cash. I’m no financial expert so just quoting from their own preliminary results…

[Dct_Mopas]

In effect they’ve drawn £0.9 billion cash off a credit card and popped into the current account. So yes £1.46 billion in cash but where it has come from is the issue (as needs paying back)

[MANTHR]

Thanks for the clarification. The report certainly puts a positive take on things which can sometimes make it hard to see where funds have come from (to the untrained eye anyway!)

[Brian Pern]

MANTHR

If you bother to read my earlier post, you will see that the £0.9 Billion has come from borrowings. Dct-Mopas has clarified it quite nicely.
It is all in the company report titled, Preliminary Results 2021, I quote page 4 word for word, or if that is too much have a look at PRELIMINARY UNAUDITED RESULTS FOR YEAR ENDED 31 MARCH 2021, under Company Announcements, scroll down to 2021 Key Performance Highlights, under Liquidity the 4th paragraph explains everything, again it is the same I copied and pasted.

All here: https://www.jet2plc.com/Investor_Relations/News/Final_Results_08_July_2021/

If that is no good, well, I could make a disparaging comment regarding Crayola and Paper, but I am not like that.

Rt Hon Jim Hacker MP, absolutely right, I do apologise things we post in the middle of the night.

[The Flying Stool]

For what reason would they post false or inaccurate accounting?

[MANTHR]

Fair enough, I hadn’t seen your post from further back…. Those who have loaned the moneys to Jet2 must have a lot of confidence in them to support them with that amount of money. Profit per year up until COVID had been very good I believe.

[Brian Pern]

To put it into perspective,
£215 Million off the banks, unsecured, but short term loan (£65 Million in revolving credit, a bit like a credit card and £150 Million in unsecured loan)
£387 Million in senior Converted Bonds, typically done by start ups, to raise capital, high risk but offer higher reward. In reality they will have to pay back a higher amount of interest on these, as there is a risk.
£103 Million mortgaging aircraft, a bit like a loan on your car.
and finally £199 Million off the UK government, a loan to help companies due Covid, again a loan.
I would not say confidence, the only confidence I see is in the fact Jet 2 have a lot of large assets, Aircraft, Parts, Engines airport equipment all of which can be sold to service any debt.

In fact in 2019, the last year untainted by Covid, Jet2 made £177.5 Million before taxation. Thanks to covid they will be repaying this debt for some time.

[The Flying Stool]

As will almost every other airline. Jet2 are still in a better financial position than most other carriers.

[Brian Pern]

I would be interested to see your fiscal analysis of other carriers, Ryanair, Tui, IAG Whiz, anyone else?

No I believe I said I don't have an issue with Jet 2 not 0 Beef, I am sure other airlines are in debt, that is not the point.

It seems on here there is a view that nothing wrong can be said against Jet2, maybe it is because they are the plucky Brits, or something else, I don't know? But woe betide anyone with even hint a something being wrong in the state of Denmark and they are shouted down as is now.
Lets face it Jet 2 have about £434 million in in the bank the other £904 Million is borrowing, some of which is short term, yet there are those on here who feel all is well in the state of Yorkshire, it is basic fiscal sense, if you borrow more than you earn (2019 £177 Million), sooner or later you will be in trouble.
But if you still want to bury your heads in the sand, I have a friend who has a great investment offer for you all, his name is Jordan Belfort, he used to run a very successful investment house called Stratton Oakmont.

[OhNoCB]

I suspect some of the perceived delusion/optimism is that whilst it is not desirable to have large amounts of debt, it reads like Jet2 have found it relatively easy to obtain the funds to prop the bank balance up. At a consumer level, lenders are being a bit more careful about giving out money in these times, and from some non-industry related businesses I know of, this is a problem for businesses too. That it appears to have been relatively easy (oversubscribed share placings etc), it shows that there is at a fairly reasonable level of confidence in the company to move forward strongly if they can get to the other side of this. Whilst previous years profits show that it will take some time to pay back the debts, perhaps the market and lenders might view having a higher confidence in moderate returns is better than a lower confidence in record breaking returns.

[3Greens]

Brian Pern

I borrowed significantly more than I earn in order to finance my house, as Do most of the U.K. mortgage market I’d suggest. It’s how debt works. You’re only in trouble when the debt becomes unmanageable or unserviceable. Neither you or I, or anyone on here knows the point at which that will become the case with Jet2 (unless you are their CFO).

[Whitemonk Returns]

OhNoCB

Well said, the company is essentially banking that stockpiling cash now (through cheap debt) it will be in a position to emerge from this pandemic in a position of strength and be able to expand rapidly in the recovery. Will it pay off? I don't know but it has a couple of advantages:

Space for expansion in the UK (BRS being the first example), strong customer loyalty both before and through the pandemic due to their quick refund response.

In my opinion they lack any real competition in what they do so do not fear a collapse anytime soon, TUI are indeed a behemoth but have so many plates to keep spinning I'm not sure they can focus on flight/package enough to ever really hurt JET2 and the proposed easyJet holiday expansion has probably been delayed by the stresses of the pandemic. On the beach and all of these holiday sites will have been devastated by the pandemic and their initial poor response to customer refunds I think both TUI and JET2 will essentially absorb their customers in house over the next few years.

Hopefully greener times await us all.

[rotorwills]

Looking forward to the greener times. I definitely need a holiday.

[High Viz Vest]

Whitemonk Returns

I hope the last sentiment is right however; I think if you think they have no real competition in their sector now, is, with respect, misguided, There is probably more competition for holiday type flying than ever before. You have the big boys eying up this business right now like BA in the UK and the likes of Wizz who seem to have been throwing cash about, plus potentially new starters. Not to mention Easy who were already dipping an orange toe into the polluted water.

With cheap aircraft and crews on sale now is the time to start your budget airline.

[Brian Pern]

Which of course is easier said than done.

A good friend of mine has access to two 73 Classics, in reasonable condition, he can even get an AOC, making it work however.....
I've been involved in the start up of one airline, I wont make that mistake again.

I am sure though, Ryanair, with Buzz, Lauda and Malta branding will be looking at the UK market, Easy, Wizz etc and if so it could be come very tough and saturated soon.

[Whitemonk Returns]

High Viz Vest

Flight only then I agree with you, but TUI and most definitely JET2 are not competing with RYR/WZZ etc, it would be pointless when they flood the market with 9.99 flights, they would get killed. Full service package holiday customers are what the first two will be filling their airplanes with over the next decade and in that respect they have very little to no real competition apart from each other, and thankfully there is enough space for them both to thrive.

Interesting that RYR have announced the intention to recruit 2000 over the next three years and WZZ have started interviews too. Hopefully all will have an opportunity to get back in the air over the next 12 months

[galley cart]

Do Ryanair make money by training pilots? I guess there will be large numbers of boys and girls at training establishments standing in line with money to pay one last time to live the dream, nightmare.

Good luck all