View Full Version : Indigo and Virgin
wheels_down
25th Apr 2020, 01:57
I hear Bill is circling. A good time to take control. They have been loitering for years.
The Tiger brand would clearly remain under such ownership. Longer term would give them the option to increase its footprint, and for once, run by people who know what they are doing. It was Indigo who initiated the Tiger Australia launch in 2007 but lost its share in the IPO soon after.
Would enable them to sell the 737 fleet to clear the a large chunk of debt. 500 A320/1 on order.
Either they go it alone, or team up with SQ/Virgin who would have a tiny minority.
Buster Hyman
25th Apr 2020, 02:21
*makes note to go & copyright AussieGo name under trade marks....:ok:
PoppaJo
27th Apr 2020, 04:26
If Virgin were to die, I think that’s where Indigo would come in, buy the below only, bring their own machines in.
Indigo would want the AOC, slots, terminals, branding, product, staff, Corp contracts, data. They wouldn’t want the aircraft or engineering. They will bring their own. That would suit the admin guys, as they can sell all Boeing assets.
No doubt would get a half a billon dollar grant from one of the states with a wide range of incentives.
That Alaska/JetBlue sort of model is exactly what they would go after.
Largely the product and branding isn’t the issue here. It’s the balance sheet is just screwed beyond belief.
If they can’t get Virgin, Bill will want his Tiger back. A dead Virgin will result in a large window of opportunity for the leisure pax. He could send 10-20 odd Neo’s downunder with a matter of months. Would be a very quick re-activation.
Icarus2001
27th Apr 2020, 04:30
He could send 10-20 odd Neo’s downunder with a matter of months. Would be a very quick re-activation. All good right up until the interstate travel ban, best guess is until September - October.
PoppaJo
27th Apr 2020, 04:46
In regards to a Indigo Tiger only buyout, with a dead Virgin, September School Hols is a good time to kickstart. They would be able to pull some Neos out of Frontier to quickly start it up.
Pilots will probably need to take a ‘new startup’ pay cut 10-15% below JQ, but a job is a job.
I think it’s certainly probable. They have the AOC, past Tiger ownership experience spin to bypass any government doubters, aircraft ready, Sydney slots. And Airbus Pilots at the ready.
Tourism operators will be throwing a lot of cash around to boost their numbers, as well as States throwing hundreds of millions around with bazookas to protect egos. Win Win.
neville_nobody
27th Apr 2020, 04:53
He could send 10-20 odd Neo’s downunder with a matter of months.
And crewed by whom and on what AOC? Good luck getting CASA to allow a new type flown by noone with type experience. I highly doubt that anyone from Jetstar or QF are going to resign from there to help a start up operator.
To get that to work you would have to import labour, probably another bunch of expats, whilst all the redundant Virgin Pilots are in the dole queue which isn't a good look politically. Once you have some operational experience, then CASA might let you expand and hire non rated pilots.
The only 'quick' solution operationally will be with a 737NG, anything else will take years.
morno
27th Apr 2020, 04:56
And crewed by whom and on what AOC? Good luck getting CASA to allow a new type flown by noone with type experience. I highly doubt that anyone from Jetstar or QF are going to resign from there to help a start up operator.
To get that to work you would have to import labour, probably another bunch of expats, whilst all the redundant Virgin Pilots are in the dole queue which isn't a good look politically. Once you have some operational experience, then CASA might let you expand and hire non rated pilots.
The only 'quick' solution operationally will be with a 737NG, anything else will take years.
It’s not a new type, it’s a re-engined A320. Anyone with an A320 type rating could read the FCOM, jump in and go.
wishiwasupthere
27th Apr 2020, 04:56
And crewed by whom and on what AOC? Good luck getting CASA to allow a new type flown by noone with type experience. I highly doubt that anyone from Jetstar or QF are going to resign from there to help a start up operator.
There’s a whole bunch of trained and recent Airbus pilots who have recently been made redundant and are stacking shelves, driving trucks, or sitting at home right now trying to work out what their next move will be.
PoppaJo
27th Apr 2020, 04:59
And crewed by whom and on what AOC? Good luck getting CASA to allow a new type flown by noone with type experience. I highly doubt that anyone from Jetstar or QF are going to resign from there to help a start up operator.
To get that to work you would have to import labour, probably another bunch of expats, whilst all the redundant Virgin Pilots are in the dole queue which isn't a good look politically. Once you have some operational experience, then CASA might let you expand and hire non rated pilots.
The only 'quick' solution operationally will be with a 737NG, anything else will take years.
Indigo, ideally, will want Tiger. And they will want that in a market without Virgin, that gives them large upside. They would only obviously buy it, if Virgin collapses, and at that time or near to. The market will view this positively, as someone is coming in to save some jobs. Virgin goes, but Tiger stays, and states they will grow bigger, is better than both going under. The tourism market is not as doomed as previous thought. ‘Tiger Airways Founder saves the Pussycat’ sort of pull.
They would buy the Tiger AOC and slots of the Administrators. They don’t need anything else, Tiger is largely a leased and contracted business. Out of everyone sitting on ‘the list’ to buy Virgin, they are the only one who would go down this path of pursuing the LCC.
The A320 is still on the Tiger AOC. They will bring in their own leased A320s. They have 400+ on order. NEO AOC change is minimal.
The previous Tiger Airbus rated Pilots are available. They don’t need to import Frontier Pilots in on reduced terms. 99% of Tiger Airbus Pilots will sign a deal tomorrow to join.
It was Indigo’s call to start Tiger in 2007. They have had dialogue with the regulator here previously.
crosscutter
27th Apr 2020, 05:33
And what would St Nick say about this proposal?
Liquidation
FIRB
National Interest
My hunch... The scale of operation would have to be so compelling to negate the aforementioned considerations. The sum of Virgins parts are worth less than Velocity FF. How would this proposal gain the required creditor support, let alone the Canberra suits?
Icarus2001
27th Apr 2020, 05:41
And crewed by whom and on what AOC? Good luck getting CASA to allow a new type flown by noone with type experience. So you are assuming the NEO is a new type? Plenty of A320 type rated pilots were just made redundant by Tiger.
They would buy the Tiger AOC and slots of the Administrators. For about the fifth time, it is not possible to purchase an AOC. It is possible to purchase the company that owns the AOC which then means you take on the liabilities of that company, unless there is a DOCA formulated under administration which reduces any liability as agreed by creditors.
halas
27th Apr 2020, 05:46
Why would anyone want a NEO?
halas
Ollie Onion
27th Apr 2020, 06:19
Why on earth would anyone invest in Virgin, if Indigo wants a slice of the market they can just wait for Virgin to be wrapped up and poach the parts they want before starting a new operation with No debt.
Buster Hyman
27th Apr 2020, 06:34
99% of Tiger Airbus Pilots will sign a deal tomorrow to join.
And vastly different to the one they previously negotiated too.
Is this thread a joke? Are you all actually saying IndiGo would make a bid for Virgin? Anybody actually worked for IndiGo or understand old Wolfgangs grand Europe plan?
No offence but this is a pipe dream of epic proportions on many levels.
wishiwasupthere
27th Apr 2020, 07:31
Is this thread a joke? Are you all actually saying IndiGo would make a bid for Virgin? Anybody actually worked for IndiGo or understand old Wolfgangs grand Europe plan?
No offence but this is a pipe dream of epic proportions on many levels.
You’re confusing IndiGo Airlines for Indigo Partners, two very separate entities.
For clarity who are you guys actually talking about?
IndiGo (InterGlobe Aviation) or the Parent company?
wishiwasupthere
27th Apr 2020, 07:41
Indigo Partners, an American investment company, owner of Frontier Airlines and a bunch of other low cost carriers. Zilch zip nada to do with Indigo Airlines of India.
wheels_down
27th Apr 2020, 10:38
Indigo teamed up with Ryan Group in 2002 on the hunt to launch a LCC in Asia. They got SQ onboard and launched Tiger in 2004.
Now own have Frontier, Wizz, Volaris. 450 Neos on order.
PoppaJo
27th Apr 2020, 20:47
In today’s SMH claims Indigo offered to buy out EY/HNA/Nashan in 2018 who agreed but SQ/SRB wouldn’t let it happen
PoppaJo: I have not seen the SMH story. My understanding is 1 of the 3 thought to be Nashan did not want to sell. This sank the plan as Indigo Partners were only interested in being a majority shareholder. Furthermore my understanding is SQ/SRB were not contacted.
SMH/Age/Brisbane Times article (https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/business/companies/virgin-suitor-indigo-partners-made-play-for-airline-18-months-ago-20200427-p54nmm.html)
Servo
28th Apr 2020, 05:33
Would be good for a lot of the tiger boys and girls. For the majority of the virgin pilots, would mean starting at the bottom (again) and getting another endorsement (again). But that is the way the merry go round that is aviation works here. That would all depend on the size of the operation as well.
Indigo Partners, an American investment company, owner of Frontier Airlines and a bunch of other low cost carriers. Zilch zip nada to do with Indigo Airlines of India.
Righto......I went and did some homework today and realised. Humbly apologise and largely relieved at the same time haha.
Anyway, my money is on West Farmers making a bid as long as that outstanding debt from JBs little VA experiment doesn't keep growing.
Ragnor
28th Apr 2020, 21:17
I struggle to see any player having a few hundred million to spend on an airline considering there is no end in sight as to when we can fly again especially Indigo who have their fingers in multiple aviation pies surely they're even hurting. I think Deloitte are pushing s$%t up a hill and giving false hope to all.
neilki
29th Apr 2020, 14:15
If Virgin were to die, I think that’s where Indigo would come in, buy the below only, bring their own machines in.
Indigo would want the AOC, slots, terminals, branding, product, staff, Corp contracts, data. They wouldn’t want the aircraft or engineering. They will bring their own. That would suit the admin guys, as they can sell all Boeing assets.
No doubt would get a half a billon dollar grant from one of the states with a wide range of incentives.
That Alaska/JetBlue sort of model is exactly what they would go after.
Largely the product and branding isn’t the issue here. It’s the balance sheet is just screwed beyond belief.
If they can’t get Virgin, Bill will want his Tiger back. A dead Virgin will result in a large window of opportunity for the leisure pax. He could send 10-20 odd Neo’s downunder with a matter of months. Would be a very quick re-activation.
JetBlue & Alaska? nope. Spirit and Frontier. Much higher CASM than B6 or AK..
neilki
29th Apr 2020, 14:18
In regards to a Indigo Tiger only buyout, with a dead Virgin, September School Hols is a good time to kickstart. They would be able to pull some Neos out of Frontier to quickly start it up.
Pilots will probably need to take a ‘new startup’ pay cut 10-15% below JQ, but a job is a job.
I think it’s certainly probable. They have the AOC, past Tiger ownership experience spin to bypass any government doubters, aircraft ready, Sydney slots. And Airbus Pilots at the ready.
Tourism operators will be throwing a lot of cash around to boost their numbers, as well as States throwing hundreds of millions around with bazookas to protect egos. Win Win.
Frontiers' neos are all flying. ask me how I know :-)
neilki
29th Apr 2020, 14:24
It’s not a new type, it’s a re-engined A320. Anyone with an A320 type rating could read the FCOM, jump in and go.
neo? quick powerpoint and you're good. It's part of the development timeline of the type. Sharkets, motive fuel pumps et al. The neos have a couple of different operational procedures around engine start, but the way my operator has configured them the biggest differences are brake fans and where to put your phone....
neilki
29th Apr 2020, 14:35
I struggle to see any player having a few hundred million to spend on an airline considering there is no end in sight as to when we can fly again especially Indigo who have their fingers in multiple aviation pies surely they're even hurting. I think Deloitte are pushing s$%t up a hill and giving false hope to all.
>states obvious..
There will be winners and losers from this. Economic Darwinism and sound Management will prevail. The real arbiter of success in this brave new world of facemasks and TP hoarding is the banks. Money will be available; the banks will; back the winners, and the winners will thrive.
I hope this resolves for VA people, and I believe Indigo is very well positioned to succeed..
umop apisdn
29th Apr 2020, 16:06
where to put your phone....
Why oh why did they leave out the phone holder on the Neos. So annoying.
wheels_down
18th May 2020, 02:42
One step closer.
BNEA320
18th May 2020, 03:34
Indigo teamed up with Ryan Group in 2002 on the hunt to launch a LCC in Asia. They got SQ onboard and launched Tiger in 2004.
Now own have Frontier, Wizz, Volaris. 450 Neos on order.
surely a big % of these neo orders will be postponed or cancelled, when so many A320 ceos being parked all over the world. How many ? 1000s maybe ? If not many 100s with stuff all demand.
For a start how many in VARA & Tiger fleets here with OZ rego ?
The public wouldn't know the difference between an up to 20+ yo A320ceo (with new paint/interior) & a new A320neo. The former would probably come at 1/4 or less, of cost to buy/lease a neo, but with higher maintenance costs. They probably could do maintenance somewhere cheap in asia, where they might even fly to. (when you consider Alliance fly all their Fokker jets to Bratislava for heavy maintenance)
wheels_down
18th May 2020, 03:39
20 year old 320 with wingtip fence, vs a 2020 build Neo.
The fuel saving is about 25%- 28%
If Oil climbs above $100 later this decade, then they pay for themselves overnight.
PoppaJo
18th May 2020, 03:44
surely a big % of these neo orders will be postponed or cancelled, when so many A320 ceos being parked all over the world. How many ? 1000s maybe ? If not many 100s with stuff all demand.
For a start how many in VARA & Tiger fleets here with OZ rego ?
The public wouldn't know the difference between an up to 20+ yo A320ceo (with new paint/interior) & a new A320neo. The former would probably come at 1/4 or less, of cost to buy/lease a neo, but with higher maintenance costs. They probably could do maintenance somewhere cheap in asia, where they might even fly to. (when you consider Alliance fly all their Fokker jets to Bratislava for heavy maintenance)
There is a reason not many hang onto 20 year old Airbus machines. Because they are absolutely useless pieces of junk that can barely sit idle overnight without something going wrong. I wouldn’t even give them freighter conversions!
Engineers have nightmares once they get to 10 years old let alone 20!
BNEA320
18th May 2020, 03:50
There is a reason not many hang onto 20 year old Airbus machines. Because they are absolutely useless pieces of junk that can barely sit idle overnight without something going wrong. I wouldn’t even give them freighter conversions!
Engineers have nightmares once they get to 10 years old let alone 20!ok maybe not 25 yos, maybe 5 to 10 years. The point being, plenty of cheap aircraft around, some not that old.
Look at Allegiant in USA. They bought a heap of old Mad Dogs for nothing (reportedly around US$1m each), didn't fly them hard, had lots of back up aircraft around the country, just in case. Used some for spares. (bit like Alliance & their old fokkers) They didn't even bother flying many at all on Tuesday, as why bother.
Just say you could lease an 8 yo A320 for a 1/4 of a near new one. So you could have (nearly) 4 for price of 1 newish one. Plan to 3 flying with 1 backup is huge % & 3 x numbers of seats that can sell. 3 x the frequency. Nearly as statement is a bit simplistic & doesn't take into account other factors.
wishiwasupthere
18th May 2020, 03:53
Maybe stick to travel deals, not airline economics.
BNEA320
18th May 2020, 03:57
Maybe stick to travel deals, not airline economics.
last time I looked allegiant & alliance were both doing quite well, although helps alliance that they do a lot of fifo & flights for other airlines, with almost no risk
BNEA320
18th May 2020, 03:59
20 year old 320 with wingtip fence, vs a 2020 build Neo.
The fuel saving is about 25%- 28%
If Oil climbs above $100 later this decade, then they pay for themselves overnight.
The likes of indigo partners with so many birds flying, would surely have good fuel hedging in place & surely locking away as much as possible at lowest possible costs now.
It was reported few years ago, that Southwests profits could be put down solely to their fuel hedging.
Buster Hyman
18th May 2020, 06:35
(bit like Alliance & their old fokkers)
No need to bring the Flight Attendants in on this! :=:p
Section28- BE
18th May 2020, 10:26
No need to bring the Flight Attendants in on this! :=:p
Strewth 'Buster'- average 'fleet' age would be 'out-there' .............. given, 'they' have not made 'em for 'a' 1/4 of a century............, but 'yes'- gotya, and more power too you...., if you can 'Rock' that on here.
Given, 'the Band' is back together, thought- include Original Band image- Ref (acknowledgement) the C/M- Murdock Press...... etc. etc.
Original Band link here: https://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/ee845b9e36ac73f435b9a558270576f2?width=650
'Elwood' does appear 'somewhat'/ a tad 'peaky' for want of a term....!!!!
Wow- Ripper...!!!!
Rgds:cool::cool:
S28- BE
wishiwasupthere
18th May 2020, 10:39
Strewth 'Buster'- average 'fleet' age would be 'out-there' .............. given, 'they' have not made 'em for 'a' 1/4 of a century............, but 'yes'- gotya, and more power too you...., if you can 'Rock' that on here.
Given, 'the Band' is back together, thought- include Original Band image- Ref (acknowledgement) the C/M- Murdock Press...... etc. etc.
Original Band link here: https://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/...76f2?width=650 (https://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/ee845b9e36ac73f435b9a558270576f2?width=650)
'Elwood' does appear 'somewhat'/ a tad 'peaky' for want of a term....!!!!
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/600x467/6518852b_b479_474c_897a_d142b93eaf2e_18211b1140c0fc87836f940 3a02dbf685319966c.jpeg
Double_Clutch
18th May 2020, 11:04
s28 - might want to lay off the skydrol. The MSDS says it should not be sniffed
You just need to download the ‘Enigma’ App. It’s great for decryption! 😉