Probing the Nimrod

[Jackonicko]

I came across a photo of an early Nimrod MR2P with small finlets on the tailplanes, rather than the usual large rectangular fins.

I had a look at all the various Nimrod books on my shelves (a surprising number) and could find no explanation, but started to wonder if it was a feature of the initial Falklands UOR-type MR2P conversion (to XV227, 228, 230, 232, 234, 236, 237, 238, 239, 243, 247, 248, 253, 254, 255 and 260), with the larger finlets being applied to the R1s* and subsequent 'production' MR2P conversions.

Initially I wondered if the big rectangular finlets were associated with the MR2s 'Yellow Gate' wing pods, but then found photos of 249 with wingtip pods, no finlets, and no AAR probe.

Does anyone remember this episode?

*(I know that the first 'probed' R1 initially still had Chelton hockey stick antennas on the tailplanes).

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1024x753/bae_nimrod_mr2p_xv254_small_finlets_b82010cf6e10bd2a64710e7a f1e1c992e1450b15.jpeg

[Akrotiri bad boy]

Working with BAe at Ice Station Kilo I remember the large fins on the tailplane were part of the LORAN, (or was it LORAL?), wing tip mod which took place post Falklands. That would have been '85 - '87 as each aircraft underwent a major service.

[AQAfive]

As far as I can remember, the fins (in fact Aerials I was told) were part of the probe mod. When aircraft went in for their next major service, (I do not know which), the fins were replace by the larger aerials and the refuelling pipes (2 of) than ran down the inside of the fuselage (Yes, as used on the bowsers) were replaced by proper fuel lines in the bombay. Although the original mod was a bit gash looking, the pipe was very robust with many an item dropped on it and it never gave off any fumes.

LORAL was another name for the Yellowgate ESM, (I believe the manufactures name) and was a major MOD fit, the fins had nothing to do with it, I believe they were replaced at the same time. LORAN was a navaid that was on the MR1 and was removed from the MR2 when GPS was added, (I think), or when the ground stations were taken off the air.

All that from a wettie, so some details may be wrong.

[BEagle]

The hideously ugly Nimrod AEW3 had a probe also, but no vertical surfaces on the tailplane.

My FHT on the VC10K course included a Nimrod AEW3 as one of the receivers during the AAR element of the test on 5 Nov 1984. Watching that thing trying to prod was a giggle a minute!

[Wensleydale]

The hideously ugly Nimrod AEW3 had a probe also, but no vertical surfaces on the tailplane.

My FHT on the VC10K course included a Nimrod AEW3 as one of the receivers during the AAR element of the test on 5 Nov 1984. Watching that thing trying to prod was a giggle a minute!

The larger nose and tail cross sections of the Nimrod AEW3 actually improved the aircraft handling and the aircraft did not Dutch role like the maritime version (so I was told by the flight deck). It had to have something go for it - however small!

[safetypee]

As I recall, the larger 'finlets' were associated with the probe installation because the basic aircraft had a mild PIO, dutch roll, when tanking.
Initial evaluation in the 'reprogrammbale' design sim at Hatfield considered several different fixes.

[Yellow Sun]

Just to complicate matters a little further, I have on my wall a large photo of XV238 behind a Victor and it has no fins just the ventral keel. The photo was taken on the flight trials and came to me from BAe.

Tony Blackman describes the design and testing process in his book Nimrod Rise and Fall, pp145-6. He states that Banfield and Cruse made the first successful dry contacts with a Victor on 28 April 82 and first wet contacts on 30 April. He goes on to say that XV238 was delivered with flight refuelling modifications complete on 1 May. I do know that I never saw a probed aircraft at Kinloss without fins.

He describes the addition of the fins as being a R1 mod that was utilised for aerodynamic purposes and having no electrical connection on the MR2. I cannot recall (never knew) what function they fulfilled on the R1 but they don’t seem to have been associated with Astral Box.

WRT The AEW 3’s handling characteristics, it wasn’t only directional stability that was improved, the pitch response was sufficiently improved that there was no longer a requirement for the two stage elevator gearing with Fine Gear being selected passing Fl200 in the climb. The gear change system was removed on the AEW 3.

YS

[lonsdale2]

The way I remember it - probe only aircraft had the small finlets. Probe and Loral fitted aircraft had the large finlets. Aircraft with Loral but no probe had no finlets.
It is all some time ago so I could be mistaken!
The finlets were fashioned from aerial antennae but had no associated radio fit.

[Nimman]

lonsdale2 - That’s exactly the way it was. On the original AAR trials to ensure adequate directional stability the small ventral fin was fitted below the rear fuselage and small finlets above and below the tail plane were fitted. The larger finlets were fitted when the ESM pods were fitted to AAR equipped aircraft. Also as you say the finlets were not part of any electronic fit.

[Gauges and Dials]

Every time I hear mention of this aircraft I am reminded that the USA and the UK are "two great nations divided by a common language."

Yes, Nimrod the biblical figure was a mighty hunter, but in the USA, the name is only ever used sarcastically. "Nimrod" is what you might name that fellow in the warehouse who managed to impale the office wall with the tines of a forklift truck. Twice in one week.

We Yanks are always astounded that you Brits chose that name for an important military aircraft.

[Captain Radar....]

Every time I hear mention of this aircraft I am reminded that the USA and the UK are "two great nations divided by a common language."

Yes, Nimrod the biblical figure was a mighty hunter, but in the USA, the name is only ever used sarcastically. "Nimrod" is what you might name that fellow in the warehouse who managed to impale the office wall with the tines of a forklift truck. Twice in one week.

We Yanks are always astounded that you Brits chose that name for an important military aircraft.

Nimrod....

[Pontius Navigator]

As I recall, the larger 'finlets' were associated with the probe installation because the basic aircraft had a mild PIO, dutch roll, when tanking.Initial evaluation in the 'reprogrammbale' design sim at Hatfield considered several different fixes. Spot on. The aircraft would yaw upto about 1.5 degrees per minute and was a sod doing astro. Obviously this became more apparent and a problem during AAR. Sticking two pair of VHF aerials was probably a quick and dirty fix. The larger fins were obviously a later design and manufacturing job. Whether they were fitted for Loral and with Loral is another matter. Maybe better stability would improve bearing accuracy.

[thunderbird7]

We Yanks are always astounded that you Brits chose that name for an important military aircraft.

We Brits are always astounded that you Yanks chose that man for an important position... ;)

The Loral pods caused potential significant wing drop at the stall and that was controlled by the positioning of wing fences on each outboard upper surface of the wing. Therefore, I don't think the taiplane fins were to do with Loral on its own. Don't remember seeing the smaller aerial type fins so not sure how common that was.

[Union Jack]

Every time I hear mention of this aircraft I am reminded that the USA and the UK are "two great nations divided by a common language."

Yes, Nimrod the biblical figure was a mighty hunter, but in the USA, the name is only ever used sarcastically. "Nimrod" is what you might name that fellow in the warehouse who managed to impale the office wall with the tines of a forklift truck. Twice in one week.

We Yanks are always astounded that you Brits chose that name for an important military aircraft.

And we are probably equally astounded that you "Yanks" don't appear to appreciate that there is another Nimrod well worth knowing about, namely https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUgoBb8m1eE

I also wonder what the Southerners feel, observing that the name Nimrod may have originated from a Hebrew word meaning "rebel", rather than a misinterpretation of Bugs Bunny.....:rolleyes:

Jack

[sangiovese.]

And you named an aircraft the growler.....

[esscee]

US people speak "American" not English!

[pax britanica]

More about linguistics than aircraft having worked for a US company for ten years (based in the souuth complicated matters further) i often half jokingly said I spoke American as well as English. There really are a lot of alternate meanings and meaning for words and phrases often more subtle than the giggle inducing versions of fanny or thongs but many analogies or phrases cause confusion in both directions, playing straight bats or coming out of left field dont cross the Atlantic at all clearly.

interesting to read about the Nimrod, an ugly duckling in disguise really, turning the lovely elegant comment into we err an ugly duckling but no doubt a functional one. Not a wholly Brit thing when one compares the original lineage and final form of a King air and Beechcraft1900 the later of which seemed to have every imaginable bolt on aerodynamic quick fix added to make it work in its 'airliner' guise

[ATSA1]

Union Jack..
Thank you for the youtube post...I would write more, but I seem to have something in my eye....

[DCThumb]

The use of 'Nimrod' as a derogatory word originates (I believe) from a Bugs Bunny cartoon. Bugs said sarcastically, to Elmer Fudd, 'You are such a Nimrod'. He meant 'you are such a mighty hunter' but the sarcastic tone was missed and the use of the word as an insult caught on.

[oxenos]

Never Intended for Maritime Reconnaissance or Overses Detachments.

[NRU74]

US people speak "American" not English!

A number of sources indicate that Nimrod was responsible for building the Tower of Babel.

[thunderbird7]

Never Intended for Maritime Reconnaissance or Overses Detachments.

It was the highly capable APU and aluminium airstairs that particularly suited it to dets...

[WB627]

The hideously ugly Nimrod AEW3 had a probe also, but no vertical surfaces on the tailplane.

That is a bit harsh. The only time I saw a Nimrod in the air was the AEW3. All the other times I should have seen one, the crew failed to find the airfield at which the Nimrod was supposed to be displaying. This included RAF Henlow, when we watched the Nimrod going round and round looking for us and despite being given directions (they were piped into the tannoy), they still failed to find the airfield for their display. Became a bit of a standing joke between me and Mrs WB627 as it happened a few times LOL.

However, before anyone takes offence, I know it was designed to find submarines in the briny, not airfields on dry land and could find a needle in a thousand feet of water.
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/800x526/nimrod_aew3225_1_7925f1e8eda735b665c75d07810b2b17a3308626.jp g

Sometimes you have to be in the right place at the right time and grateful to the pilot for putting it there. Not Photoshopped.

[squidie]

That is a bit harsh. The only time I saw a Nimrod in the air was the AEW3. All the other times I should have seen one, the crew failed to find the airfield at which the Nimrod was supposed to be displaying. This included RAF Henlow, when we watched the Nimrod going round and round looking for us and despite being given directions (they were piped into the tannoy), they still failed to find the airfield for their display. Became a bit of a standing joke between me and Mrs WB627 as it happened a few times LOL.

However, before anyone takes offence, I know it was designed to find submarines in the briny, not airfields on dry land and could find a needle in a thousand feet of water.
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/800x526/nimrod_aew3225_1_7925f1e8eda735b665c75d07810b2b17a3308626.jp g

Sometimes you have to be in the right place at the right time and grateful to the pilot for putting it there. Not Photoshopped.

Yeah was never designed to find a runway to land on, just subs XD

[oxenos]

the highly capable APU
On my first tour on Nimrods (1970) the Squadron boss had previously been on the team drawing up the equipment spec. During a detachment I was lamenting the poor performance of the APU. His answer was that given the electrical power required during preflight checks, an APU of that capacity would have had to be very large and heavy. Since most of the time the aircraft was expected to operate from bases with D/E sets, it was decided that occasionally having to start an engine and get a genny on line for the checks was worth doing to save humping a heavy APU around all the time.

[WB627]

Yeah was never designed to find a runway to land on, just subs XD

To be fair, RAF Henlow was a grass airfield LOL

[Wensleydale]

To be fair, RAF Henlow was a grass airfield LOL

Surely they could have built a great big arrow out of pine poles?? They must have had quite a few in store.....................

[lonsdale2]

WB627 quote: I know it was designed to find submarines in the briny

Yes of course all AEW aircraft are used to find submarines!! :ugh::*

[Hot 'n' High]

Yes of course all AEW aircraft are used to find submarines!! :ugh::*

Aw lonsy! Poor 627! Think 627 was celebrating the AEW one which did find and/or flew over him as he says "The only time I saw a[ny] Nimrod in the air [it] was the [an?] AEW3." Ergo, all the other, more common ones (MRs) he had hoped to see never found the displays coz they were only used to finding subs in the oggin.

Well, that's how I read it! Do you let 627 off? ;)

[oxenos]

XW666, an R.1 , took it a stage further and went hunting submarines in their own element.

[LowObservable]

If this thread drifts any more it will start singing "Under the Boardwalk", but I would point out that the EA-18G is named after a large-mouth bass (via a USN tradition of naming ships after fish).

[oxenos]

ships after fish
I always called those trawlers.
Mind you the Americans called them hookers.
Does this mean the USN name ships after ladies of loose virtue?

Great thead drift- where next?

[WB627]

Hot 'n' High - :ok: Thank you. Not even sure I've seen an MR on the ground up close and personal.