Race discrimination in european airlines ??

[Futurepilot1991]

Hi gentlemen, i am tunisian and i have a european passeport, i have 35 years old . I want to start a career in aviation in europe . I decided to apply for many cadet pilot (like easy jet or wizz air programs )program that leads me to the RHS . I am also thinking about applying for european flight academy of Lufthansa group .
do you think guys that my arab appearances will be an obstacle for me ?
i will be thankful for your replies .

[portsharbourflyer]

Non-issue, I have met several French pilots of North African heritage. The only issue at the moment is the industry has just collapsed so your chances of getting any cadetship soon are probably non existent. However I would say your Tunisian heritage could be an advantage, if you did decide to self fund (when things recover) there was always work in Africa flying the ATR, especially in the countries that were previously French colonies; so in your position you would be far better off exploring regional flying opportunities in Africa than trying to pursue employment in Europe.

[parkfell]

Despite what EU legislation might say, your age (35? Last year it was 28 in a post??) not your appearance, is against you to join any sponsored scheme and that was before C-19 became a show stopper, and will remain so for some significant time.

Whilst you are not too old to succeed with the training, you will find it somewhat harder than someone ten year younger. Why is it only now that aviation appeals to you as an occupation?

Realistically the modular route would be your only viable option. Get the Class One Medical as your first task if you intend to proceed.

[qwertyuiop]

Hi gentlemen, i am tunisian and i have a european passeport, i have 35 years old . I want to start a career in aviation in europe . I decided to apply for many cadet pilot (like easy jet or wizz air programs )program that leads me to the RHS . I am also thinking about applying for european flight academy of Lufthansa group .
do you think guys that my arab appearances will be an obstacle for me ?
i will be thankful for your replies .
I have worked in European aviation for 30 years and have seen and worked with people from all ethnic backgrounds.
Your problem is there will be no requirements for pilots for a number of years.

[srjumbo747]

I have read your posts and last year you were 28 and wanted to work in Canada. Why has this changed?

[Futurepilot1991]

Concerning the age , i am 28 .it was a mistake

[pineteam]

Probably a typo. His username suggests he is 29 years old this year. Or maybe he is asking for someone else.

Edit: oups sorry, Did not realise the OP replied while I was typing. xD

All the best in your jobs hunt. Tough time...:uhoh:

[Futurepilot1991]

Non-issue, I have met several French pilots of North African heritage. The only issue at the moment is the industry has just collapsed so your chances of getting any cadetship soon are probably non existent. However I would say your Tunisian heritage could be an advantage, if you did decide to self fund (when things recover) there was always work in Africa flying the ATR, especially in the countries that were previously French colonies; so in your position you would be far better off exploring regional flying opportunities in Africa than trying to pursue employment in Europe.
Thank you sir

[Futurepilot1991]

I have worked in European aviation for 30 years and have seen and worked with people from all ethnic backgrounds.
Your problem is there will be no requirements for pilots for a number of years.
thank you sir

[Rt Hon Jim Hacker MP]

I wouldn't hand over one penny to any training provider at the moment. Many are likely to go bust in the coming months and the chances of you finding a job in the next few years is close to zero.

Stay away from aviation. You'll lose everything.

[Futurepilot1991]

I wouldn't hand over one penny to any training provider at the moment. Many are likely to go bust in the coming months and the chances of you finding a job in the next few years is close to zero.

Stay away from aviation. You'll lose everything.
how much are the chances to get accepted into a cadet program now ? And how much chances are to get a job directly after a cadet program ?

[The Foss]

how much are the chances to get accepted into a cadet program now ? And how much chances are to get a job directly after a cadet program ?

right now? Zero. I would be absolutely amazed if there’s any legitimate cadet program anywhere in the world at the moment

[Rt Hon Jim Hacker MP]

If you have a pulse, anyone will take your money. In fact, they would take it even if you didn't!

As for the chance of getting a job. I would realistically say zero chance.

My advice, don't throw your money away. You'll regret it.

[eimin]

You are right now in one of, if not the most, challenging times for aviation in recent history. Your chances to get a job go from none to zero.
Many pilots have already lost their job in the past year. Many during the past month. Many will during the next year.

[iandy912i]

how much are the chances to get accepted into a cadet program now ? And how much chances are to get a job directly after a cadet program ?

getting accepted into cadet program right now - no chances

[Jumbo744]

Please don't use that card for whatever difficulties you might encounter. I am also an 'immigrant' or was (when is someone not an immigrant anymore?), and I never had a problem neither during my training or finding a job or keeping a job. If you are respectful, polite, courteous (basically how any human being should be), you won't have a problem. Get the right attitude, don't blame your instructors if you don't perform well, look at yourself in the mirror, correct the situation, work harder. I knew a guy who was such a bad pilot, but thought everyone was a racist and used this excuse as the reason why he was not successful....pathetic.

[Futurepilot1991]

Please don't use that card for whatever difficulties you might encounter. I am also an 'immigrant' or was (when is someone not an immigrant anymore?), and I never had a problem neither during my training or finding a job or keeping a job. If you are respectful, polite, courteous (basically how any human being should be), you won't have a problem. Get the right attitude, don't blame your instructors if you don't perform well, look at yourself in the mirror, correct the situation, work harder. I knew a guy who was such a bad pilot, but thought everyone was a racist and used this excuse as the reason why he was not successful....pathetic.
Well, i am asking this question because many things had changed in aviation especially after 9-11 . Don't worry about me , i speak 4 langages, got my high school diploma with 15/20 ( the equivalent of 4.0 GPA) and i worked up to 14 hours per day during the last few years to get my training cost .

[Futurepilot1991]

You are right now in one of, if not the most, challenging times for aviation in recent history. Your chances to get a job go from none to zero.
Many pilots have already lost their job in the past year. Many during the past month. Many will during the next year.
This situation is only in european aviation or in all over the world??

[Banana Joe]

I am sorry to seem rude, but where have you lived in the past 2 months? Planet Mars?

[Futurepilot1991]

I am sorry to seem rude, but where have you lived in the past 2 months? Planet Mars?
you're rude that's clear . If you have some mental illnesses then go see a doctor. I was asking about the situation before covid -19 and we know that this situation will not last forever . Airports will reopen again and aircrafts will fly again

[FlightDetent]

you're rude that's clear. If you have some mental illnesses then go see a doctor. Not the ancestral genetic heritage, neither the skin tone will stop you. But the emotion behind the quote above might.

Self-isolation excercise 1: Never let them drag you down to their level. Whether or not the swift retort was actually due is completely irrelevant, that's for the person's parents to handle. As they say, respect is something you give.

Remember, your intention is not to join a cadet scheme. Your dream is to become a trusted captain to whom one day colleagues will come for advice on topics both professional and personal.

Opposing one wrong with a larger wrong just to show you're better at it is the devil whispering, and I could not be more serious about this.

[qwertyuiop]

This guy must be a WUM.

[Futurepilot1991]

Not the ancestral genetic heritage, neither the skin tone will stop you. But the emotion behind the quote above might.

Self-isolation excercise 1: Never let them drag you down to their level. Whether or not the swift retort was actually due is completely irrelevant, that's for the person's parents to handle. As they say, respect is something you give.

Remember, your intention is not to join a cadet scheme. Your dream is to become a trusted captain to whom one day colleagues will come for advice on topics both professional and personal.

Opposing one wrong with a larger wrong just to show you're better at it is the devil whispering, and I could not be more serious about this.
Thank you sir for the reply , i will continue till the end
they will always try to provocate like this Guy below (🤮🤮🤮 (qwertyuiop )

[eimin]

This situation is only in european aviation or in all over the world??

The IMF is saying global GDP will shrink by 3% constituting the most severe recession since the Great Depression of the 1930s.
Unemployment in Europe could reach 59m people.
22m Americans have filed already for unemployment benefits.

if these numbers don’t give you a hint of what’s going on in the world, then I would advise you to be careful, watch the markets and decide when things start to settle (we are nowhere near that moment yet).

[Futurepilot1991]

The IMF is saying global GDP will shrink by 3% constituting the most severe recession since the Great Depression of the 1930s.
Unemployment in Europe could reach 59m people.
22m Americans have filed already for unemployment benefits.

if these numbers don’t give you a hint of what’s going on in the world, then I would advise you to be careful, watch the markets and decide when things start to settle (we are nowhere near that moment yet).
thank you 👍✌

[Jumbo744]

Futurepilot. You see the way you are replying to the posts show how bad your attitude already is. You won't make it. Attacking instead of trying to discuss and express your point of view. Bad attitude. Nobody will like to fly with you. You are exactly the kind of person that likes to blame others instead of working on yourself. Your high school diploma won't help you and won't impress anyone. But go ahead and blame it on your "arab appearance".

Your whole approach to your "dream" is wrong. Who the hell has as a first question, a question about race?

Pathetic....

[parkfell]

FP 1991

I think that you might benefit from a psychological assessment. There are various tests which can be conducted by a qualified person such as 16 PF.
You need to fall within the normal range otherwise training will be a futile gesture.
In the meantime take a chill pill.

As you have gathered, ppruners consider that this is not the time to commence training, as C-19 has completely destroyed any prospect of junior birdmen being employed for quite sometime.

How long? Ask that question again at the start of 2021 when Crystal Balls might become less opaque.......

[Jumbo744]

LOL again...everybody is wrong but you. Everybody is the problem not you. Haha. Exactly like I said in my very first post.

[truckflyer]

you're rude that's clear . If you have some mental illnesses then go see a doctor. I was asking about the situation before covid -19 and we know that this situation will not last forever . Airports will reopen again and aircrafts will fly again

I don't think you should take such comments to personal, specially not on these forums, many will give you a blunt and honest answer, it might not be the answer you was hoping for, which will make it sound even worse for you.

The truth is I do find your title slightly presumptuous, I am not saying racism does not exist, however during the job selection process this is very unlikely to stop your career in most of Europe, unless of cause you make at an issue yourself.

The truth is that the aviation world is in crisis, I am not going to repeat what has been written before, but just look at today, 1500 pilots lost their jobs, few days ago 256 pilots lost their jobs, some weeks before that FlyBe went bankrupt, and now nobody knows anything what is going to happen over the next 3 - 4 months, one thing is for sure, even when companies start flying again, it will be many years before there will be new jobs available, at best maybe from 2022, 2 - 4 years is not an unreasonable time now before there will be any chance of new low hour pilot jobs.

So best advice now, don't rush, work slowly towards your ratings, save your cash, and wait to see how the market will change over the next 12 months.
I am suspecting people will not be travelling like before, for some time unfortunately.

[Futurepilot1991]

I don't think you should take such comments to personal, specially not on these forums, many will give you a blunt and honest answer, it might not be the answer you was hoping for, which will make it sound even worse for you.

The truth is I do find your title slightly presumptuous, I am not saying racism does not exist, however during the job selection process this is very unlikely to stop your career in most of Europe, unless of cause you make at an issue yourself.

The truth is that the aviation world is in crisis, I am not going to repeat what has been written before, but just look at today, 1500 pilots lost their jobs, few days ago 256 pilots lost their jobs, some weeks before that FlyBe went bankrupt, and now nobody knows anything what is going to happen over the next 3 - 4 months, one thing is for sure, even when companies start flying again, it will be many years before there will be new jobs available, at best maybe from 2022, 2 - 4 years is not an unreasonable time now before there will be any chance of new low hour pilot jobs.

So best advice now, don't rush, work slowly towards your ratings, save your cash, and wait to see how the market will change over the next 12 months.
I am suspecting people will not be travelling like before, for some time unfortunately.
i am sorry for that ( maybe because of other provocating guys) . Concerning the title , i apologize for everyone who had misunderstood it . I wanted to shed some light on the immigration and terrorism issues and its effect on real life .i have nothing against europe and europeans.
thank you for the reply and I will be patient and wait till things get better .

[truckflyer]

i am sorry for that ( maybe because of other provocating guys) . Concerning the title , i apologize for everyone who had misunderstood it . I wanted to shed some light on the immigration and terrorism issues and its effect on real life .i have nothing against europe and europeans.
thank you for the reply and I will be patient and wait till things get better .

You are 28 and still got plenty of time, and as for the racism issue, don't make it an issue yourself, and you will be fine. Stay level headed, do your best, and try to just stick to your professional attitude, never discuss politics and religion during your interview or while working, there are plenty of other things to talk about in life. Some get easily offended and some don't care, but life is to short to have to worry about such things while working. Do that in your own time, if you feel the need.

[Futurepilot1991]

You are 28 and still got plenty of time, and as for the racism issue, don't make it an issue yourself, and you will be fine. Stay level headed, do your best, and try to just stick to your professional attitude, never discuss politics and religion during your interview or while working, there are plenty of other things to talk about in life. Some get easily offended and some don't care, but life is to short to have to worry about such things while working. Do that in your own time, if you feel the need.
thank you sir

[A320LGW]

Hi FuturePilot,

With all due respect sir, I doubt that username will ever come to bear fruit. Yes, I am a 'commercial pilot' in case you feel the need to ask me the same thing.

From your responses here I would not show up for work if i knew you were going to be my colleague for the day. I would also report you to the company (it will never get that far though, the chief pilot or someone from management/HR will see something is not right well before).

My background is also of an ethnic minority, my name is not european. I never considered it to be an issue. I never thought about it, nor did my employers. There was never any reason for it to be, the most that happens is someone asks me where it is from (ancestry not too distant from your own self). So no, background does not count one jot.

However it absolutely counts that you seek to pick an argument wherever, that you seem to have this urge to prove yourself and knock down anything and everything, anyone who you suspect (via a clearly paranoid thought process) to be 'attacking' you, even if they are not. People have given you decent advice, you need to listen.

If your posts mean anything, you are too aggressive to occupy a pilot's seat. Can you take criticism? This thread suggests you cannot, how will you be during flying training? during line training? Especially that you will be on the older side of the spectrum, likely finishing training into your 30s, another few years to actually get a job in the climate. I hate to generalise, but the older people tend to come across more difficulties and need a lot more correcting than the younger guys who just suck it all up, the brain don't work the same. Are you going to fight with everyone who corrects you? You'd be kicked out a sim quicker than you can say the word.

You need to be able to have a laugh too, laugh at yourself, loosen up. People make jokes about themselves and each other all the time in this job, it's all light hearted fun. No bad intentions.

Good luck.

[FLCH]

Please don't use that card for whatever difficulties you might encounter. I am also an 'immigrant' or was (when is someone not an immigrant anymore?), and I never had a problem neither during my training or finding a job or keeping a job. If you are respectful, polite, courteous (basically how any human being should be), you won't have a problem. Get the right attitude, don't blame your instructors if you don't perform well, look at yourself in the mirror, correct the situation, work harder. I knew a guy who was such a bad pilot, but thought everyone was a racist and used this excuse as the reason why he was not successful....pathetic.

Jumbo gets it, 33 years at my airline started at 28, different color, one of the shortest pilots out of 12,000 ( no I wasn't hired because of my background to fill a quota) don't look for disadvantaged excuses if you as a pilot screw up, let your flying do the talking to the very very few that will judge you on your appearance. Attitude is everything !

That worked for me.

Best of luck !

[CharlotteAnderson]

As a female pilot from a low socioeconomic background who has been involved in aviation since I was a teen, I have seldom experienced any issues. Work hard, respect your peers, don't take yourself too seriously and remember, LADIES and gentlemen are involved in this amazing industry and on PPRUNE - just poking fun at your opening post ;)
As for a cadet programs, I really don't think it will happen. As many here have mentioned, go your own way and you will find a path. Good luck!

[InSoMnIaC]

Please don't use that card for whatever difficulties you might encounter. I am also an 'immigrant' or was (when is someone not an immigrant anymore?), and I never had a problem neither during my training or finding a job or keeping a job. If you are respectful, polite, courteous (basically how any human being should be), you won't have a problem. Get the right attitude, don't blame your instructors if you don't perform well, look at yourself in the mirror, correct the situation, work harder. I knew a guy who was such a bad pilot, but thought everyone was a racist and used this excuse as the reason why he was not successful....pathetic.


futurepilot, you should be thanking Jumbo744 for those wise words of caution. As a trainer I can tell you that there is nothing worse that a candidate can do than making excuses for their poor performance. And the worst excuse you could possibly offer is Racism.

[macdo]

You might want to think about your CRM skills, with reference to your last response.

[LoicFR]

Well, i am asking this question because many things had changed in aviation especially after 9-11 . Don't worry about me , i speak 4 langages, got my high school diploma with 15/20 ( the equivalent of 4.0 GPA) and i worked up to 14 hours per day during the last few years to get my training cost .

Everything can be summed up to this post I think. Treating others with respect (the most basic thing in life, even though too many forget about it) is not replying to their advices with such sentences. People here take on their time to help you, so being patronizing won't be of any help nor will it inspire sympathy. We are very happy to know that you can speak 4 languages, just bear in mind that there are excellent pilots who only speak 1, and for sure people who speak 10+ but could never be able to fly.

À bon entendeur ;)

P.S. : And anyway, your intelligence and ability to succeed in aviation is not represented by your final high school average. (In France 15/20 is obtained by 20%+ of the candidates...)

[Banana Joe]

you're rude that's clear . If you have some mental illnesses then go see a doctor. I was asking about the situation before covid -19 and we know that this situation will not last forever . Airports will reopen again and aircrafts will fly again
Grow a pair, you are going to need it.

[FlightDetent]

Gentlemen there was a rather lengthy and descriptive post from OP that is no longer visible for all the good reasons. Further comments are completely futile in my opinion, I sure as hell regret getting involved. The quote about pork wrestling comes to mind.

[Luray]

Just for laughs. My ancestry emerges from Turkish region with a little mix from Siberia. For some reason i got blue eyes , blond hair and white skin but very tribal south eastern name that no one in the airline could pronounce . I changed my name and surname to show nice gesture of integration and from that moment things went nuts. For a year and half I was number 1 topic to mention in the flight deck after takeoff briefing. It made me famous.
I couldn't cope with my fame and joined another major airline but some days later they found out about my name and fired me for "failing security check". I ended up being rehired by my former airline where i will enjoy my celebrity clown status till end of days:)

[CaptainCriticalAngle]

Futurepilot1991 -- some of your comments are really quite immature for someone who is 35 (or 28). That really is a bad attitude to have and I hope your anonymous keyboard warrior persona stays in the bedroom, but it does give a clue to your thought processes. You won't make it to the RHS if you display any of these tendencies in the real world.

There are captains who would end your job and possibly your career if you spoke like that to them. Interpersonal skills are as important as technical skills. I wish you luck but I fear you may be found out a long time before you get any where near a commercial cockpit.

[Jumbo744]

Everything can be summed up to this post I think. Treating others with respect (the most basic thing in life, even though too many forget about it) is not replying to their advices with such sentences. People here take on their time to help you, so being patronizing won't be of any help nor will it inspire sympathy. We are very happy to know that you can speak 4 languages, just bear in mind that there are excellent pilots who only speak 1, and for sure people who speak 10+ but could never be able to fly.

À bon entendeur ;)

P.S. : And anyway, your intelligence and ability to succeed in aviation is not represented by your final high school average. (In France 15/20 is obtained by 20%+ of the candidates...)

Haha laisse tomber. Le pauvre il se croît au top avec son bac du lycée. Il "parle" 4 langues mais son anglais est du même niveau que celui de mon neveu de 5 ans. Sa maturité aussi d'ailleurs.

[parkfell]

Futurepilot1991 -- some of your comments are really quite immature for someone who is 35 (or 28). That really is a bad attitude to have and I hope your anonymous keyboard warrior persona stays in the bedroom, but it does give a clue to your thought processes. You won't make it to the RHS if you display any of these tendencies in the real world.

There are captains who would end your job and possibly your career if you spoke like that to them. Interpersonal skills are as important as technical skills. I wish you luck but I fear you may be found out a long time before you get any where near a commercial cockpit.

The psychometric testing would hopefully pick up on these adverse characteristics.

Many moons ago I ran the CPL/IR upgrade courses under CAP509 at PIK.
One of the first things I said on day one of a new intake was that they should regard this as a 9 week interview process.
The vast majority were fine and are now Captains around the world.

[jmmoric]

One thing is for sure, if you throw the "racism" word at anyone.... you're gonna be in deep trouble, and you may not even be aware of it.

[SeventhHeaven]

Don't worry about me , i speak 4 langages, got my high school diploma with 15/20 ( the equivalent of 4.0 GPA) and i worked up to 14 hours per day during the last few years to get my training cost .

HAHAHAHA That's a good one! You're a funny dude.

Oh, you were serious? You really shouldn't be proud of your high school diploma of all things ... Christ on a bike man, you're 28 years old, you'd get fired from asda with that rotten attitude of yours.

[Krautwald]

Well. I have worked in several countries, some of which have a VERY different mentality and values than mine. While I would never use the r-word, I am pretty sure I have been subject to an attitude that ranked me somewhere considerably lower than the natives, especially since I had to work for a living instead of enjoying the luxurious citizen status there. So that exists everywhere, and is by no means exclusive to Europe. If you ever heard some Chinese comment on Africans for example, you´d have no further questions. That said, even if everybody tries to do their best to remove that from their attitude, there is still a bottom line of values that are not racist but legitimate in order to make things work, and I think we have already seen it in this thread in the form of "pride culture" vs. "criticism culture".

Assuming both are legitimate (although personally, I see the oppressive side of "pride culture" as an objective problem especially towards weaker groups, women etc.), this is what may be behind many experiences with "racism": not being on the same page of the book. I will give an example: My wife is a doctor and once had a younger "pride culture" colleague in residency. He ended up f**** up an operation in an inexcuseable way: not only did he alter the plan for the operation, he altered it to include a surgical technique he was not cleared for on his own, and he also performed it wrongly and punctuated heart tissue. And then while the patient was turning critical and the senior nurse stopped the show and called my wife as a senior doctor, he avoided answering clearly, so that the other staff had to find out what was wrong with the patient. Patient made it, but it was about to go wrong. The junior doc did not contribute to clarifying the situation. Now why did he do those things? He was certainly not an evil person, but the debriefing showed that he COULD not admit himself to be anything but the king of the hill. It was so ingrained in his self concept that this is what he owed to himself, his family, his role etc. They could not write this in the concluding report of course but it was the pivot of the problem: his idea of himself, and his willingness to aggressively defend this idea against the reality of his limits.

So when he ran into a situation that needed to be altered, he didn´t ask for supervision. When that alteration required a special technique, he didnt call a senior doctor and say "I cannot do this yet". When he made a grave mistake, he did not admit it, stop himself and call for assistance. And when he WAS stopped, he was not able to tell the story of how he made three big fat mistakes. And I literally mean "able to". "This was all my fault, nobody elses". "I have to correct myself". "I am sorry". "This was beyond my abilities". "I am not yet at the top of my game". where not part of his inner vocabulary. The only self image he could muster and bear, was "I am second to none and always right". Whoever told him that wasn´t true (for anyone!), had a problem and was being unfair or respectless.

Now, in Europe in general, some degree of self restraint and humbleness are part of the desired values in a human being. Do we have people who lack both, yes we do but they are regarded as slightly deviant. An aggressive "pride and honour" concept of oneself will rank somewhere on our "psychological immaturity" scale. While in other places, it is the only way to get anything in life at all. That is not racism, it is diversity. Some things will simply not integrate with some other things and vice versa. In critical functions such as aviation, being self critical, putting yourself second, and being able to handle AND admit/discuss your own mistakes and inabilities PUBLICLY, are absolutely mandatory to achieve proficiency. You will also receive same criticism from others / externals. Situations such as live flight lessons, assessment for cadet programs etc. will screen you for these things. I think that is what some of the posters here meant: you cannot give the impression that you react emotionally upset. It is a show stopper. You could be the most tall, blonde, blue eyed Swedish posterboy in the world, if they feel that you have a too big, unhealthy ego, you are out.

So, surprise: to be considered for a demanding and critical teamplayer role in Europe, you need to be European enough in your overall attitude. In synch with how things are done.

[eimin]

Well. I have worked in several countries, some of which have a VERY different mentality and values than mine. While I would never use the r-word, I am pretty sure I have been subject to an attitude that ranked me somewhere considerably lower than the natives, especially since I had to work for a living instead of enjoying the luxurious citizen status there. So that exists everywhere, and is by no means exclusive to Europe. If you ever heard some Chinese comment on Africans for example, you´d have no further questions. That said, even if everybody tries to do their best to remove that from their attitude, there is still a bottom line of values that are not racist but legitimate in order to make things work, and I think we have already seen it in this thread in the form of "pride culture" vs. "criticism culture".

Assuming both are legitimate (although personally, I see the oppressive side of "pride culture" as an objective problem especially towards weaker groups, women etc.), this is what may be behind many experiences with "racism": not being on the same page of the book. I will give an example: My wife is a doctor and once had a younger "pride culture" colleague in residency. He ended up f**** up an operation in an inexcuseable way: not only did he alter the plan for the operation, he altered it to include a surgical technique he was not cleared for on his own, and he also performed it wrongly and punctuated heart tissue. And then while the patient was turning critical and the senior nurse stopped the show and called my wife as a senior doctor, he avoided answering clearly, so that the other staff had to find out what was wrong with the patient. Patient made it, but it was about to go wrong. The junior doc did not contribute to clarifying the situation. Now why did he do those things? He was certainly not an evil person, but the debriefing showed that he COULD not admit himself to be anything but the king of the hill. It was so ingrained in his self concept that this is what he owed to himself, his family, his role etc. They could not write this in the concluding report of course but it was the pivot of the problem: his idea of himself, and his willingness to aggressively defend this idea against the reality of his limits.

So when he ran into a situation that needed to be altered, he didn´t ask for supervision. When that alteration required a special technique, he didnt call a senior doctor and say "I cannot do this yet". When he made a grave mistake, he did not admit it, stop himself and call for assistance. And when he WAS stopped, he was not able to tell the story of how he made three big fat mistakes. And I literally mean "able to". "This was all my fault, nobody elses". "I have to correct myself". "I am sorry". "This was beyond my abilities". "I am not yet at the top of my game". where not part of his inner vocabulary. The only self image he could muster and bear, was "I am second to none and always right". Whoever told him that wasn´t true (for anyone!), had a problem and was being unfair or respectless.

Now, in Europe in general, some degree of self restraint and humbleness are part of the desired values in a human being. Do we have people who lack both, yes we do but they are regarded as slightly deviant. An aggressive "pride and honour" concept of oneself will rank somewhere on our "psychological immaturity" scale. While in other places, it is the only way to get anything in life at all. That is not racism, it is diversity. Some things will simply not integrate with some other things and vice versa. In critical functions such as aviation, being self critical, putting yourself second, and being able to handle AND admit/discuss your own mistakes and inabilities PUBLICLY, are absolutely mandatory to achieve proficiency. You will also receive same criticism from others / externals. Situations such as live flight lessons, assessment for cadet programs etc. will screen you for these things. I think that is what some of the posters here meant: you cannot give the impression that you react emotionally upset. It is a show stopper. You could be the most tall, blonde, blue eyed Swedish posterboy in the world, if they feel that you have a too big, unhealthy ego, you are out.

So, surprise: to be considered for a demanding and critical teamplayer role in Europe, you need to be European enough in your overall attitude. In synch with how things are done.


Excellent answer. Well balanced and with great concepts in it.

[TheFlyer747]

Well. I have worked in several countries, some of which have a VERY different mentality and values than mine. While I would never use the r-word, I am pretty sure I have been subject to an attitude that ranked me somewhere considerably lower than the natives, especially since I had to work for a living instead of enjoying the luxurious citizen status there. So that exists everywhere, and is by no means exclusive to Europe. If you ever heard some Chinese comment on Africans for example, you´d have no further questions. That said, even if everybody tries to do their best to remove that from their attitude, there is still a bottom line of values that are not racist but legitimate in order to make things work, and I think we have already seen it in this thread in the form of "pride culture" vs. "criticism culture".

Assuming both are legitimate (although personally, I see the oppressive side of "pride culture" as an objective problem especially towards weaker groups, women etc.), this is what may be behind many experiences with "racism": not being on the same page of the book. I will give an example: My wife is a doctor and once had a younger "pride culture" colleague in residency. He ended up f**** up an operation in an inexcuseable way: not only did he alter the plan for the operation, he altered it to include a surgical technique he was not cleared for on his own, and he also performed it wrongly and punctuated heart tissue. And then while the patient was turning critical and the senior nurse stopped the show and called my wife as a senior doctor, he avoided answering clearly, so that the other staff had to find out what was wrong with the patient. Patient made it, but it was about to go wrong. The junior doc did not contribute to clarifying the situation. Now why did he do those things? He was certainly not an evil person, but the debriefing showed that he COULD not admit himself to be anything but the king of the hill. It was so ingrained in his self concept that this is what he owed to himself, his family, his role etc. They could not write this in the concluding report of course but it was the pivot of the problem: his idea of himself, and his willingness to aggressively defend this idea against the reality of his limits.

So when he ran into a situation that needed to be altered, he didn´t ask for supervision. When that alteration required a special technique, he didnt call a senior doctor and say "I cannot do this yet". When he made a grave mistake, he did not admit it, stop himself and call for assistance. And when he WAS stopped, he was not able to tell the story of how he made three big fat mistakes. And I literally mean "able to". "This was all my fault, nobody elses". "I have to correct myself". "I am sorry". "This was beyond my abilities". "I am not yet at the top of my game". where not part of his inner vocabulary. The only self image he could muster and bear, was "I am second to none and always right". Whoever told him that wasn´t true (for anyone!), had a problem and was being unfair or respectless.

Now, in Europe in general, some degree of self restraint and humbleness are part of the desired values in a human being. Do we have people who lack both, yes we do but they are regarded as slightly deviant. An aggressive "pride and honour" concept of oneself will rank somewhere on our "psychological immaturity" scale. While in other places, it is the only way to get anything in life at all. That is not racism, it is diversity. Some things will simply not integrate with some other things and vice versa. In critical functions such as aviation, being self critical, putting yourself second, and being able to handle AND admit/discuss your own mistakes and inabilities PUBLICLY, are absolutely mandatory to achieve proficiency. You will also receive same criticism from others / externals. Situations such as live flight lessons, assessment for cadet programs etc. will screen you for these things. I think that is what some of the posters here meant: you cannot give the impression that you react emotionally upset. It is a show stopper. You could be the most tall, blonde, blue eyed Swedish posterboy in the world, if they feel that you have a too big, unhealthy ego, you are out.

So, surprise: to be considered for a demanding and critical teamplayer role in Europe, you need to be European enough in your overall attitude. In synch with how things are done.
thank you sir for sharing your experience with us 🙂🙂🙂 . I

[Citationcj2]

Concerning the age , i am 28 .it was a mistake


Thats a fairly big mistake to type! If I was you I’d check your CV. You might have down that your a truck driver and not a pilot hence not being able to get a job!

But yeah seriously, 35 and 28 is a big difference man.. I dont get it

[covec]

Just be sure to vote SNP & "Yes" in IndyRef2 & you'll be grand with Loganair! 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿😉

[parkfell]

Thats a fairly big mistake to type! If I was you I’d check your CV. You might have down that your a truck driver and not a pilot hence not being able to get a job!

But yeah seriously, 35 and 28 is a big difference man.. I dont get it

FP1991 & KT1988 probably both attended the same Swiss finishing school.....