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Bergerie1
19th Apr 2020, 06:36
Those of us brought up on turbine powered aircraft had it easy compared with these. Does anyone have similar stories to post?

More Speedbird Strats (http://www.ovi.ch/domains/ovi.ch/public_html/b377/articles/speedbird/)

chevvron
19th Apr 2020, 07:18
The 1955 film 'Out of the Clouds' dealt mainly with Stratocruiser Ops out of Heathrow; when 'Capt' James Robertson Justice has to div back to Heathrow with an engine problem, he is given a talkdown using PAR for his landing and the phraseology used by the controller is little different from that still used for talkdowns nowadays.
I can remember my parents taking us to 'London Airport' several times in the early '50s and watching 'Strats' doing power checks from the public viewing areas, firstly northside, then across the runway whilst the Central Area was still being built (and before the tunnel was built when you were 'marshalled 'across the taxiway and runway) then later still from the brand new 'Queens Building'.

BSD
19th Apr 2020, 17:26
Those of us brought up on turbine powered aircraft had it easy compared with these. Does anyone have similar stories to post?

More¬ Speedbird¬ Strats (http://www.ovi.ch/domains/ovi.ch/public_html/b377/articles/speedbird/)
My dear old Dad was a BOAC Navigator after the war, before becoming a pilot. He was a Stratocruiser navigator for a while and rated his time on the Stratocruiser as a Navigator as some of the best of his career.

I can't find his logbook as i write, but I know it contains such gems as "turned back at 40 West due headwinds" and on one occasion, an Eastbound crossing of some 16 hours out of New York has "record crossing" in the remarks. Can't recall where they landed though, probably Prestwick.

Post-war Britain, with rationing etc., was an austere place. Luxury goods, alcohol and tobacco were in short supply and expensive. Leaving New York, he once told me the Navigator would get in hours early to go through all the flight planning permutations, trying to ensure either the quickest trip, or if there was any chance they could make it direct. Lots of involvement from the Captain, lots of options explored. No organised track system in those days, weather ships en route, pressure pattern flying, intense briefings from the Meterologist, face to face no less. Then, the Irish opened the duty free shop in Shannon - the world's first.

After that he reckoned, no Stratocruiser ever flew past Shannon without stopping. Giving each Skipper a bottle of Scotch before departing New York would have saved a fortune!

Pan Am had one ditch beside a Pacific weather ship after engine problems meant it couldn't make the West Coast of the US with fuel remaining. I also believe, the Propeller caused enormous problems as many or more than the complex "corncob" radials engines., wasn't it Electric and with a Magnesium hub? Prone to runaways and fires?

As for the hinged fin: the 707 had the same feature and I'd be surprised of he 737 didn't have it too. I once saw a Monarch 720 outside their old black hangar at Luton, (northernmost corner of the apron, besides the Britannia ops block. Both gone now I believe) the 720's fin was folded flat on top of the right hand stabiliser in order to get it in the hangar.

Closest I've ever been to one since chldhood: the Musess de l"air et Espace at Le Bourget. They used to have a KC-97 parked outside. Magnificent machine.

DaveReidUK
19th Apr 2020, 19:22
As for the hinged fin: the 707 had the same feature and I'd be surprised of he 737 didn't have it too. I once saw a Monarch 720 outside their old black hangar at Luton, (northernmost corner of the apron, besides the Britannia ops block. Both gone now I believe) the 720's fin was folded flat on top of the right hand stabiliser in order to get it in the hangar.

A folding vertical stabilizer sounds like an accident waiting to happen ...

Does anyone have a photo of one ?

Jhieminga
19th Apr 2020, 19:57
How about a KC-135? The B-52 uses the same system.
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1333/2000x1333_q95_cba60f4696a3e6e7e8556340a2236f824c1c518a.jpg

Herod
19th Apr 2020, 20:11
Dave, I've got some time on the 737 and as far as I'm aware.it didn't have a folding fin. However, I'm always learning and someone could surprise me

DaveReidUK
19th Apr 2020, 20:38
Dave, I've got some time on the 737 and as far as I'm aware it didn't have a folding fin. However, I'm always learning and someone could surprise me

I was equally unaware of a folding fin on any Boeing jet airliner.

I'm strugging to get my head around the image of folding a 720's fin to get it into the hangar. Clearly, as can be seen from the KC-135 photo, fin attachments aren't designed to be capable of supporting the weight of the fin when it's folded (hence the crane).

So I'd be fascinated to know how you move an aircraft into a hangar once the fin is folded ...

jensdad
19th Apr 2020, 21:01
Clearly, as can be seen from the KC-135 photo, fin attachments aren't designed to be capable of supporting the weight of the fin when it's folded (hence the crane).



Unless that's how you get it back up? :) This is all news to me as well. Amazing the things you learn on this page!

DaveReidUK
19th Apr 2020, 21:20
Unless that's how you get it back up?

You mean using a crane, as opposed to all standing on the h/stab and heaving? :O

Nice video of a KC-135 fin being folded here: https://www.dvidshub.net/video/356002/fin-fold

Loose rivets
19th Apr 2020, 23:25
Hmmm . . . prime need for getting the tail in for servicing: the folding fin.


One of no the most convincing, UFO story I've ever seen was an BOAC Stratocruiser's captain, crew and some passengers seeing an object with orbiting satellites that IIRC went inside the 'mother ship'. My words. I've kept the article for decades but put somewhere in the last move. It was published in a science magazine but the only Google I can find now is the one that looks more than a tad schoolboyish.

There is Pathe news interviewing the crew which I hadn't seen until c 2012 I recall the captains saying far from being frightening, it gave a feeling of wellbeing.

tdracer
20th Apr 2020, 02:20
Closest I've ever been to one since chldhood: the Musess de l"air et Espace at Le Bourget. They used to have a KC-97 parked outside. Magnificent machine.

If you're ever in Colorado Springs, Colorado, you can have lunch or dinner sitting in an actual KC-97 at a place called "The Airplane Restaurant". It's near the C-Springs airport.
I had lunch there a couple months ago - it was pretty good and even the wife thought it was pretty cool to have lunch sitting in an old KC-97.

ExSp33db1rd
20th Apr 2020, 02:37
BSD ... started my BOAC career as a trainee Nav. on Strats. any chance that I might have flown with your dad ? When did he finish as a Strat Nav. ?

I also believe, the Propeller caused enormous problems as many or more than the complex "corncob" radials engines., wasn't it Electric and with a Magnesium hub? Prone to runaways and fires?

Not on the crew, but I remember a tale of a crew having a No. 3 engine runaway prop. one night, and their fear that it would fall off and hit the fuselage with disastrous, possibly fatal, results?

The Flt/Eng moved into the Nav.compartment behind the main flight deck to observe the wayward prop with the Aldis signal lamp that was still carried in those days - in the event of VHF loss and the need to use visual light signals to get ATC circuit and landing signals from the airport tower, I kid you not ! - to better keep his eye on the prop hub which was glowing red and getting hotter and hotter, and when he figured that it was about to separate used the intercom to shout "NOW", at which the Capt. put the aircraft into a fast, and steep, left bank. This threw the prop. safely over the top of the fuselage.

Unbelievably this subsequently happened to the same Captain at a subsequent date, but he was experienced this time !

Jhieminga
20th Apr 2020, 07:37
Some more images of a B-52 fin folding here: https://www.barksdale.af.mil/News/Features/Display/Article/322193/fold-fix-and-fly/
I'm strugging to get my head around the image of folding a 720's fin to get it into the hangar. Clearly, as can be seen from the KC-135 photo, fin attachments aren't designed to be capable of supporting the weight of the fin when it's folded (hence the crane).
I think that the crane is there to support the weight during the process, as for how it is supported when it's folded, I cannot answer that question. I cannot point to the source right now but I'm pretty sure I've read in various places that the early, larger fins on the 707 family supported the fin folding so that it could fit into the hangars of those days, or perhaps even as a result of its military pedigree in the C-135 programme.

RedhillPhil
20th Apr 2020, 07:53
Re folding fins.
The Saab 37 series had folding fins.

mustbeaboeing
20th Apr 2020, 09:18
Monarch B720’s sat in the hangar at Luton for a month or so, on a big check, with the fin ‘folded over’ unsupported. I suspect the earlier photo of a US KC135 (post #5) had either been just lowered, or about to be lifted by the attached crane. Unless Boeing had changed the system for the US military.

dixi188
20th Apr 2020, 09:25
At Luton the B720 fin was folded down and rested on the horizontal stab. to allow the aircraft to be pushed into the northeast side of hangar 1/2. There was a large girder supporting the valley of the roof where the two hangars were joined together and this was too low for the fin to pass under. A BAC 1-11 would go under.

DaveReidUK
20th Apr 2020, 10:23
Monarch B720’s sat in the hangar at Luton for a month or so, on a big check, with the fin ‘folded over’ unsupported. I suspect the earlier photo of a US KC135 (post #5) had either been just lowered, or about to be lifted by the attached crane. Unless Boeing had changed the system for the US military.

Looking at some more fin photos on the Net, it appears to be more a question of geometry rather than weight.

Here's another view of the KC-135 fin folded, captured from a USAF video:

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/466x393/kc_135_ia_ang_002af97f16e55229962de30bfa1e60b86d4a3078.jpg

You don't need to be an engineer to work out that, if the crane is removed without any other means of support, the fin will continue to hinge downwards until it clobbers the tailplane. Hence the crane in the photo is continuing to take the load to keep the fin horizontal (actually in this instance as a preliminary to complete removal of the fin to replace the rudder).

This photo, on the other hand, of 720 OY-DSK before it was impounded and broken up at Luton, appears to show how MAEL got round the problem:

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/311x318/oy_dsk_with_fin_folded_c4be77d4026f2c09fd6ce12421aa5b6f0a17b a24.jpg

Rather than defying gravity, you can just discern between the base of the fin and the fuselage what appears to be some kind of pad which, in conjunction with the pin attachments for the fin, maintains it in a more-or-less horizontal plane with a reasonable amount of clearance from the tailplane - it's clearly not resting on it.

The photo from Flickr rather unhelpfully claims that it was taken on October 2010 (which is obviously nonsense), so it's not clear whether the 720 in question ever flew again after the photo was taken.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/monarch-aircraft-engineering/5077790033/in/album-72157625466259342/


We're still no nearer knowing whether the 707 shared the 720's ability to fold the fin. Given the close relationship between the two types, it might seem a reasonable assumption - but on the other hand, wth many more 707s built, it has so far proved impossible to track down photographic evidence.

Any offers?

BSD
20th Apr 2020, 12:45
Wow! Neat pictures of folding fins.

ExSp33dbrid - sent you a private message. Meantime, That engineer would have had a real incentive to call "Now" at just the right time. Getting it wrong I guess would have meant seeing the prop come to join him at the Navigators station!!!

BSD.

Spooky 2
20th Apr 2020, 14:59
FWIW, the Nav station on the USAF C97 was actually behind the Capt. seat on the aft part of the flight deck. It was not like the Connie which had the Nav sation located outside of the cockpit. Carry on please:)

chevvron
20th Apr 2020, 16:02
Unless that's how you get it back up? :) This is all news to me as well. Amazing the things you learn on this page!
The stewardess will help if you can't get it up.Devil
(Airplane)

WHBM
20th Apr 2020, 17:47
Back to the Strat. It was a customer choice whether you had Hamilton Standard hydraulic propeller control units, or Curtiss electric ones. Some aircraft were later changed from one to the other, I seem to recall the Curtiss electric was the one that fell out of favour. Along with this were the choices of hollow or solid prop blades, again some changed these later. The aircraft had more than its fair share, for its limited production, of runaway props and shed blades.

The props on an R-4360 engine must have been transmitting the most power of any reciprocating engine built, and would have been up against the technology limits of the day. There's an R-4360 on display in the Udvar-Hazy museum at Washington Dulles, what a huge engine.

7 cylinders to a row, with 2 spark plugs to each cylinder. 4 rows of cylinders per engine. 4 engines. That's 224 spark plugs. Apparently there was some shock loading failure mode which required the changing of all an aircraft's spark plugs. An engineer of the era wrote of doing these multiple times, all on weekend overtime, and making enough to put down the deposit on a decent house.

Pom Pax
21st Apr 2020, 02:39
Pity I was only 14 but I knew one of the 'girls'. But I can rember her saying that she had just walked the Atlantic.

ExSp33db1rd
21st Apr 2020, 04:23
FWIW, the Nav station on the USAF C97 was actually behind the Capt. seat on the aft part of the flight deck.

Maybe, but the BOAC ones that I worked on had a route to the co-pilots seat BEHIND the engineers panel, he passed the F/Eng and turned left behind the panel, and the Nav followed but turned right down a step ( or Two ? ) to the cubicle on the Starboard side beind the rest of the flight deck.

Spooky 2
21st Apr 2020, 14:57
Maybe, but the BOAC ones that I worked on had a route to the co-pilots seat BEHIND the engineers panel, he passed the F/Eng and turned left behind the panel, and the Nav followed but turned right down a step ( or Two ? ) to the cubicle on the Starboard side beind the rest of the flight deck.


I have seen that configuration just once and I believe it might have been in a former NWA aircraft? NWA also had the abrieviated FE station that faced forward as I recall. Ditto for UAL which were converted at significant expense when sold to BOAC. Do you recall any of these details?

ExSp33db1rd
23rd Apr 2020, 04:26
I have seen that configuration just once and I believe it might have been in a former NWA aircraft? NWA also had the abrieviated FE station that faced forward as I recall. Ditto for UAL which were converted at significant expense when sold to BOAC. Do you recall any of these details?

Nope, only recall the sideways facing F/Eng panel not attached to the fuselage, so that the F/O could walk behind it, and the Nav. cubicle off the flt. deck to the right.

DaveReidUK
23rd Apr 2020, 06:45
I have seen that configuration just once and I believe it might have been in a former NWA aircraft?

Didn't Aero Spacelines buy all Northwest's surviving Stratocruisers ?

treadigraph
23rd Apr 2020, 08:19
There is part of the nose of a Northwest Stratocruiser at the San Diego Air & Space Museum at Gillespie Field. Is it genuine or a KC-97?

DaveReidUK
23rd Apr 2020, 13:03
There is part of the nose of a Northwest Stratocruiser at the San Diego Air & Space Museum at Gillespie Field. Is it genuine or a KC-97?

KC-97L 53-0200 in disguise.

treadigraph
23rd Apr 2020, 13:06
Ah well, it was always a great scheme! Thanks...

Spooky 2
23rd Apr 2020, 17:58
Didn't Aero Spacelines buy all Northwest's surviving Stratocruisers ?


Dave, I think you may be right. I was on the original Gupppy when it was first undergoing the conversion at On Mark down in Van Nuys. I believe it had the more traditional FE set up now that you mention it. In addition the 2nd hand ac that BOAC purchased had square windows which was a UAL config, therefore i suspect that UAL had the abbreviated FE station. I read once where Lockheed did the conversions, but i cannot find that reference anymore.

WHBM
23rd Apr 2020, 19:46
Didn't Aero Spacelines buy all Northwest's surviving Stratocruisers ?
Yes, but they were mostly taken to Mojave, and (slowly) robbed for parts for KC-97/Guppy support. One however, N74603, went on to Tucson, where it sat in the desert effectively complete (including engines and props) for the best part of 25 years, last Northwest Strat flight September 1960, until it was distressingly broken up in 1983, still with faded remnants of its Northwest livery. The tail was cleanly cut off first, for some Guppy support purpose, and this revealed that the interior was still all complete as well.

Here it is a few years before breaking
https://www.airliners.net/photo/Aero-Spacelines/Boeing-377-10-30-Stratocruiser/1251724

The Israel Air Force kept their ex-Pan Am tanker fleet of them going until 1975, but then broke them up.

There was a series of articles in Propliner magazine quite some years ago, one chapter each issue on each of the operators, which covered all the combinations of propeller types, window shape, etc. Each purchaser effectively took a unique configuration.

wrmiles
23rd Apr 2020, 20:15
Back to the Strat. It was a customer choice whether you had Hamilton Standard hydraulic propeller control units, or Curtiss electric ones. Some aircraft were later changed from one to the other, I seem to recall the Curtiss electric was the one that fell out of favour. Along with this were the choices of hollow or solid prop blades, again some changed these later. The aircraft had more than its fair share, for its limited production, of runaway props and shed blades.

The props on an R-4360 engine must have been transmitting the most power of any reciprocating engine built, and would have been up against the technology limits of the day. There's an R-4360 on display in the Udvar-Hazy museum at Washington Dulles, what a huge engine.

7 cylinders to a row, with 2 spark plugs to each cylinder. 4 rows of cylinders per engine. 4 engines. That's 224 spark plugs. Apparently there was some shock loading failure mode which required the changing of all an aircraft's spark plugs. An engineer of the era wrote of doing these multiple times, all on weekend overtime, and making enough to put down the deposit on a decent house.

Not only were there 224 plugs, i knew a ,mechanic who used to work on C-124's in the USAF and he said they used to change cylinders almost as often as plugs.

tdracer
24th Apr 2020, 01:17
Not only were there 224 plugs, i knew a ,mechanic who used to work on C-124's in the USAF and he said they used to change cylinders almost as often as plugs.
There is a reason why few air-cooled radials had more than two rows of pistons. Cooling to the last row on the R-4360 was always problematic - there was simply too much blockage, and the air was already well-heated before it got to the fourth row.

LOONRAT
24th Apr 2020, 08:58
During my research about my fathers career I came across these documents showing his flight in G-ALSA RMA CATHAY Statocruser on his atlantic crossing from New York to London in November 1953. At 0300 hrs the passenger written flight update shows they would pass HM Queen Elizabeth's aircraft on its way from London to Gander. G-ALSA subsequetly crashed on Christmas day 1954 at Prestick and all on board perished. The accident details are on Wikapedia.


https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1080x852/flight_brief_2240420_fce9d225eef049c50a03d3d0b5111041929938c 8.jpg
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1080x914/flight_map_2240420_f60d4e6e7e2275692552208aee416099158a4525. jpg

ExSp33db1rd
25th Apr 2020, 00:15
LOONRAT - Thanks for the Memory ! You will notice that the track passed by Weather Ship "C" ( Charlie ) ? This was one of the ships dotted across the Atlantic to make frequent upper atmosphere readings and surface observations for landbound meteorolgists to create aviation weather forecasts, but also transmitted a radio signal from which the Navigator could get a position line bearing, and a VHF service to help with what at times was very scratchy HF reception. Our Captains of that era wouldn't battle with the HF, leaving that to the F/O, but one offered to make the VHF position report for the F/O, it being easier. Unfortunately he had a speech impediment and the exchange went something like this .... Ossshunn stttayyyshunnn Chchcharlie etc. painfully on and on to the embarrassment of the F/O and Flt/Eng listening to him. Finally he finished with Chchchcharlie dddid you ccccopy ? Immediately a languid American voice came back with ... " Jeez, did we copy ? We've carved it into the fxxxxng deck !! "

The weather ships were out there for 3 month voyages ( I believe ? ) and Charlie was a US Coastguard service out of Boston. Radio operators bored out of their minds often asked to speak to one of our stewardesses, and would request their name, and "Vital Statistics", and one year the crew of Charile ran a "beauty contest" amongst stewardesses from the various airlines that they communicated with, and chose one to give a weeks holiday in Boston to meet the crew when they next returned to base. Nice.

Happy Days.

Jhieminga
25th Apr 2020, 14:24
We had a thread about O.P. Jones (https://www.pprune.org/aviation-history-nostalgia/502120-boac-captain-o-p-jones.html) a while back, and in it I copied this anecdote from a book by David Beaty:
One night, the veteran BOAC Captain, O.P. Jones, was approaching the weather ship and picked up his microphone to make contact. However, a sailor was having a conversation with the stewardess on the American aircraft ahead, and all he could hear through the headphones was ... 'I'm twenty two, five feet four inches, thirty-five, twenty-two, thirty-five, blonde hair, blue eyes. My flat is in 16 Brooklyn Park, telephone 5652...' 'Jesus honey, we're practically neighbours. Can you cook!'... 'Everybody says my apple pie...' 'Honey, I'll be right over. That is in three weeks and two days and five hours time.' Eventually there was a break in the conversation and Captain Jones spoke: 'This is Speedbird Easy Love ... I'm fifty-one years old, five feet nine inches tall, forty-two, thirty-two, thirty-five, blue eyes, a torpedo beard ... I'm interested in breeding bull terriers and I live in Sussex, England. My cooking is well known. Do you want my telephone number?' There was an astonished silence before the one word ... 'No-o-o.' 'Then can I,' said Captain Jones, 'have the wind at 19,000 feet?'

Bergerie1
26th Apr 2020, 05:55
ExSp33db1rd,

That would have been Captain D F Satchwell. I remember flying with him on Britannia 312s in 1963 from London to Manchester, Prestwick and Montreal, a 14.50 hour duty day. To me, as a very young lad, I was amazed the company allowed such an old man to command an aeroplane. Today, of course, I know how wrong I was. He was a delightful man, much given to wearing an old tweed jacket when off duty with leather elbow patches and frayed cuffs. His stammer was appalling, but when the going became tough, it disappeared entirely.

evansb
26th Apr 2020, 07:47
Lovely maps. Flying from North America to the U.K. in the late 1940's? I always carried bananas and an assortment of nylon stockings. Yup. I was kinda popular.

b1lanc
26th Apr 2020, 17:09
If you're ever in Colorado Springs, Colorado, you can have lunch or dinner sitting in an actual KC-97 at a place called "The Airplane Restaurant". It's near the C-Springs airport.
I had lunch there a couple months ago - it was pretty good and even the wife thought it was pretty cool to have lunch sitting in an old KC-97.
Just don't do it on a hot afternoon with the sun beating down:) Gets a bit toasty in the aircraft vice the in-building seats. But yes, it is cool.

ExSp33db1rd
26th Apr 2020, 23:20
That would have been Captain D F Satchwell.


Thanks for the memory! Satch. Spot on, yes one of the more approachable N.Atl. Barons. One could fly with him alright, it was obvious that he was saying Gear Up, or Flaps 30,or similar, but conversation was at times a struggle!

India Four Two
27th Apr 2020, 00:10
Who would have thought there was a connection between Stratocruisers and geology?

One of the fracture zones related to sea-floor spreading in the North Atlantic is called Charlie-Gibbs. Originally called the Charlie Fracture Zone, because of its location, it became double-barrelled in honour of the USNS Gibbs which did some of the surveys.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie-Gibbs_Fracture_Zone

Robert T
23rd Dec 2022, 09:59
Hi.

In the Boeing handbook for the 377 it states:

'The use of large amounts of nose-heavy trim tab during let-downs and approaches is DANGEROUS.'

Can anyone tell me exactly what this means, i.e. what problems does this cause when landing?

Also, would nose-heavy trim make the aircraft more vulnerable to strong cross winds?

Your help with this research question would be much appreciated.

TIA.

bean
23rd Dec 2022, 12:46
Hi.

In the Boeing handbook for the 377 it states:

'The use of large amounts of nose-heavy trim tab during let-downs and approaches is DANGEROUS.'

Can anyone tell me exactly what this means, i.e. what problems does this cause when landing?

Also, would nose-heavy trim make the aircraft more vulnerable to strong cross winds?

Your help with this research question would be much appreciated.

TIA.
I think i've discussed this with you elsewhere.
Too much nose heavy trim would diminish the elevator authority making a nosewheel first landng possible and leadingi to"Wheelbarrowing" and making a nosewheel collapse mote likely because any lift not still supported by the wings would be concentrated on two small diameter nose wherle as opposed to four large diameter main wheele

Jhieminga
23rd Dec 2022, 13:18
Pitch trim has no influence on cross wind behaviour.

Robert T
23rd Dec 2022, 13:52
Hi,

Thanks for this, we have indeed discussed this before! I appreciate your help. I do now understand the issue, so I make progress!

I have one other question on this.

What would the effect of a strong cross wind be on the aircraft under these conditions? I assume it would be difficult to handle?

Robert.

WHBM
23rd Dec 2022, 20:43
I think iIve discussed this with you elsewhere.
Too much nose heavy trim would diminish the elevator authority making a nosewheel first landnig possible and leading to"Wheelbarrowing" and making a nosewheel collapse mote likely because any lift not still supported by the wings would be concentrated on two small diameter nose wheels as opposed to four large diameter main wheels
True of most aircraft, but the Strat, unusually, approached nose-down, and commonly landed nosewheel first. I've no idea why, but that's how it was. The linked article, above, makes reference to how heavyweight the nosegear was.

I was both amused and concerned at the same time at our airfield not long ago to see a student 'wheelbarrowing' along when landing a PA28. Presumably training aircraft are similarly reinforced all round.

David Rayment
23rd Dec 2022, 22:07
Apologies for thread drift, but the Atlantic is the same. I have my Father's logbook and one entry is thus:


https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1720x762/york_gander_hurn2_a43fc94f7dcdc011e492244bd2a062860dd79de7.j pg

Fancy 9 hours or so in an Avro York in the Winter ? Remember G-AHFA

ancientaviator62
24th Dec 2022, 07:58
It was not unknown to take as long if not longer in the Hastings. One of my log book entries for December has 6.20 day and 3.00 night for the Gander to Colerne leg.
I sure that others have recorded even longer times for the crossing in a Hastings.

bean
24th Dec 2022, 12:01
[QUOTE=WHBM;11353547]True of most aircraft, but the Strat, unusually, approached nose-down, and commonly landed nosewheel first. I've no idea why, but that's how it was. The linked article, above, makes reference to how heavyweight the nosegear was.

I was both amused and concerned at the same time at our airfield not long ago to see a student 'wheelbarrowing' along when landing a PA28. Presumably training aircraft are similarly reinforced all round.[/QUOTE
Wheel barrowing in a light aircraftvof low weight is nowhere near the same but, you are likely to damage the prop and shock load the engine
The article about strats should be taken with a pinch of salt
Plenty of videos around showing Strats taking off and landing with minimal positive pitch attitudes which was normal. To take off on the nosewheel would require a hell of a lot of wing incidence

Robert T
24th Dec 2022, 13:21
Pitch trim has no influence on cross wind behaviour.


Many thanks. 👍

KMSS
24th Dec 2022, 16:37
The article about strats should be taken with a pinch of salt
Plenty of videos around showing Strats taking off and landing with minimal positive pitch attitudes which was normal. To take off on the nosewheel would require a hell of a lot of wing incidence

And also some interesting ones showing nosewheel first arrivals. Searching "BOAC Stratocruiser" brought up this video. Nice contrast in landing attitude between the preceding airliner and the Stratocruiser:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9u5UOHMyd4c

It seems like a landing like this would feel pretty unconventional. Maybe it was very sensitive to how long it was held off in the flare and any tendency to "fly it on" landed the nosewheel first?

Here's another interesting one, featuring Captain O.P. Jones, who's been mentioned in various posts about transatlantic flights. Not showing a landing/takeoff but fun to hear him speak for himself:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_MFndENJrE

ATNotts
25th Dec 2022, 08:39
Extreme thread drift!!

Just looking at that log extremely interesting book image I noticed that Stansted is misspelt "Stanstead". You see that error (?) on numerous occasions especially in the media, and I have often wondered if at any stage the airport was ever call "Stanstead" or if it is just one of those extremely common spelling errors that you find with some English words.

bean
25th Dec 2022, 08:56
The Strat in the youtube vid does flare and touchdown on main wheels

albatross
25th Dec 2022, 16:17
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/150x118/d8f4cab3_b6b3_40f1_a4a8_b2c24aa23f5b_5347f192bf7677b88763c86 79541e11dc15c7367.jpeg
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1550/db9db8bf_9e58_4e30_b76a_4064eb3e4090_4dedec0b504fcec6ad0bbad 526acf1b64e6a2bf3.jpeg
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1667/6c3f8497_5764_42fc_8b7f_44300cda29f8_137ba0c1a33d070ba2ad7d4 370606cfadb99b116.jpeg
I thought I had uploaded these. Enjoy.

albatross
25th Dec 2022, 16:25
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1724/d642890e_cbdd_4b69_a931_5bb04e467af2_8cc6e9ac25470ae8e62202d 55de59d853d6a7c70.jpeg
Displayed on the wall.

Discorde
27th Dec 2022, 12:20
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1563x1617/chord_line_a654032cfdf5acbe5c25a94acec5a3dc405cb418.jpg
On a wing the line joining the leading and trailing edges is called the chord line. At typical approach speeds the angle of attack (between chord line and airflow) will be in the region of 10 degrees.

On propliners and the early jetliners the only high-lift devices were the trailing edge flaps. So on a typical (three degree) approach the pitch attitude was quite low due to the chord line orientation with flaps lowered.

Later jets had leading edge slats, again changing the chord line orientation, resulting in higher pitch attitudes to attain the same approach path.

So the pitch change during the flare for landing was greater for slatless aircraft in order to achieve mainwheel touchdown before nosewheel. The Strat required an even greater change due to the gear geometry, which perhaps accounted for 'wheelbarrow' landings being more prevalent on this type.

Why did the Strat (and precursor B-29) sit nose up on the ground? Was the intention to ensure adequate prop ground clearance?

brakedwell
27th Dec 2022, 21:33
Agreed, the Britannia was a typical example of this when full flap was selected.

washoutt
28th Dec 2022, 08:34
AFAIK in performance calculations, you use the Cl-alfa curve for slatted and flapped wings. I cannot recal calculating landing performance with chord length change due to slats and flaps. What parameters do you use? The increase of the chord length, or the change in angle?

WHBM
28th Dec 2022, 09:54
On a similar theme the Handley Page Hermes of the same era was known for cruising decidedly tail-down, to the extent that other passing aircraft were known to query if everything was alright. Don't know if it was the wing incidence, or a CofG issue, or quite how Handley Page got it so wrong.

pax britanica
28th Dec 2022, 10:14
In my Cains Lane ( Myrtle Avenue of the day) spotting days in the mid 60s Vanguards were noticeably nose down on finals until well past the A 30 .. With those monster flaps and mighty Tynes they must have been able to stop very quickly if required

PB

DH106
28th Dec 2022, 11:07
I suspect that all the 'nose down approachers' mentioned (typically large prop liners from the pre jet/slat age) could indeed approach slower & more nose up if it wasn't for Vmca limitations stemming from the need to cater for a possible high power/low speed baulked landing & outer engine failure.

Discorde
28th Dec 2022, 12:04
In my Cains Lane ( Myrtle Avenue of the day) spotting days in the mid 60s Vanguards were noticeably nose down on finals until well past the A 30 .. With those monster flaps and mighty Tynes they must have been able to stop very quickly if required
On the Vanguard normal procedure after touchdown was to throttle back to ground idle - effectively props in full fine pitch, which gave good deceleration. On returning from a Merchantman air test (empty aircraft) early in 1972 the Capt said we'd do a short landing on R28L 'for experience'. We touched down (intentionally) before the VASIs and the Capt applied full wheelbrakes and called for 'max reverse'. The Vibrator rapidly shuddered to a halt and we exited the runway onto R23. Very impressive!

ancientaviator62
28th Dec 2022, 12:40
WHBM,
If you compare the tailplane positions of the Hastings Mk 1 and Mk 2 you will see that Handley Page changed the position between marks. Perhaps they got this wrong with the Tudor too.

bean
28th Dec 2022, 15:28
WHBM,
If you compare the tailplane positions of the Hastings Mk 1 and Mk 2 you will see that Handley Page changed the position between marks. Perhaps they got this wrong with the Tudor too.
There was an awful lot wrony with the Hermes but even in the forties, it would never have been certified with pitch instability which would happen with too far aft CG

chevvron
28th Dec 2022, 16:29
In my Cains Lane ( Myrtle Avenue of the day) spotting days in the mid 60s Vanguards were noticeably nose down on finals until well past the A 30 .. With those monster flaps and mighty Tynes they must have been able to stop very quickly if required

PB
I once watched one doing a 3 engine ferry at Glasgow landing in a strong crosswind. I was u/t tower controller; all went well until the last couple of hundred feet when my instructor said 'watch out for this' then the nose suddenly pitched down and it looked like it was going in but at about 20ft, I saw a firm prolonged flare.
My instructor had already told me to put a 'full emergency' in place because as he said, the aircraft was landing with less than 100% power available .

dixi188
28th Dec 2022, 17:44
On the Vanguard normal procedure after touchdown was to throttle back to ground idle - effectively props in full fine pitch, which gave good deceleration. On returning from a Merchantman air test (empty aircraft) early in 1972 the Capt said we'd do a short landing on R28L 'for experience'. We touched down (intentionally) before the VASIs and the Capt applied full wheelbrakes and called for 'max reverse'. The Vibrator rapidly shuddered to a halt and we exited the runway onto R23. Very impressive!
That gave you about 3000ft. of runway.
When the last Merchantman landed at Weybridge they omly had about 2000 ft. to play with. If you see the video they touched down on the grass.

pax britanica
29th Dec 2022, 14:26
Wouldnt the Vanguard have made a decent Mil freighter or was the timing just wrong with the RAF having bought Britanias. It was pretty big wiht that big udrfloor hold and very powerful engines . It must have been hugely superior to the Hastings but not mil enough to use instead of the Hercules.

I apologise if I offend any Hastings fans but that aircraft always seemed to me to be a complete waste of time , why not just buy DC4s or Mil Spec Argonaughts, it looked so ungainly in the air and on the ground

chevvron
29th Dec 2022, 15:19
Wouldn't the Vanguard have made a great maritime reconnaisance aircraft instead of developing the Nimrod?

brakedwell
29th Dec 2022, 15:24
Wouldnt the Vanguard have made a decent Mil freighter or was the timing just wrong with the RAF having bought Britanias. It was pretty big wiht that big udrfloor hold and very powerful engines . It must have been hugely superior to the Hastings but not mil enough to use instead of the Hercules.

I apologise if I offend any Hastings fans but that aircraft always seemed to me to be a complete waste of time , why not just buy DC4s or Mil Spec Argonaughts, it looked so ungainly in the air and on the ground

The Hastings was nicer to fly than it looked and would have been even better if the Army had not wanted to strap vehicles or guns underneath it, which required a tailwheel.

And I think the Vanguards range was a bit lit limited for a militiary freighter.

DaveReidUK
29th Dec 2022, 15:41
Wouldn't the Vanguard have made a great maritime reconnaissance aircraft instead of developing the Nimrod?

Its contemporary, the Electra, managed the MR transition very successfully.

Brewster Buffalo
29th Dec 2022, 18:33
Wouldn't the Vanguard have made a great maritime reconnaisance aircraft instead of developing the Nimrod?

Vickers suggested it in 1961 offering three versions to the RAF. The first had a fuselage shortened by 7 metres and offered a seven hour patrol at 1,000 miles. Two later versions used the existing fuselage. All were fitted with radar and a bomb aiming window.. The latter versions were also able to carry 100+ troops so had an alternative use.

chevvron
29th Dec 2022, 19:09
The RCAF did introduce an MR version of the Britannia with the Canadair Argus but inexplicably it had radial engines instead of tuboprops.

treadigraph
29th Dec 2022, 19:35
The Argus had R3350s which offered better fuel consumption at low level which is where it generally operated.

Robert T
30th Mar 2023, 13:17
A number of airlines operating the B377 fitted a safety device (don't know it's proper name) to prevent the operating switch for the flaps to move uncommanded from the OFF position to UP.

Does anyone know if BOAC ever fitted this? My bet is they did not, but I'd love to have that confirmed by someone who knows!

Unfortunately, there is no mention of this device in the handbook, hence my question.

TIA.