Now we see the big picture

[Lazyload]

Let's get the timeline in perspective:

January - Chinese virus takes hold in Wuhan (Many deaths, but a small sacrifice in things to come)
February to April - Virus escapes China to the western world, destroying jobs, companies and the economy in general of pretty much every western country, and by the way, kills over a million people.
April - Entire world's airlines sent to the brink of survival. Flights stopped. Aircraft grounded, pilots, CC and support staff stood down. No international flights for a year? The world grinds to a halt.
April - Virgin AustralIa on the brink of bankruptcy. But it's only the first to fall. We know there will be many others.
Arpril 17 - Three Chinese government-owned airlines emerge as the white knights to take over Virgin Australia, at rock bottom fire sale price. (The endgame comes into focus)

Well, my friends, do you see the picture here, the irony of how this pandemic plays out? Who suffers and who profits? Who started the mess and who will benefit from it? Who will lose and who will win? We understand that Australian Foreign Investment Review Board has expanded its powers to specifically prevent foreign (PC purists, please read "Chinese") take-over of undervalued Australian assets, as a result of COVID. It seems Virgin may slip under the radar. Let's hope that doesn't happen. Next thing, God forbid, we might lease our northern harbours to them. Those same harbours that re-supply military assets, in place to counter a threat from antagonists that we are afraid to name. Madness!

Our problem is that we're too PC. We've evolved. We don't kill live animals in wet markets, we don't eat bats and dogs, we do have a certain moral ethic. Anyway what's your view? This is no time to sit on the fence and hope that the problem just goes away - it won't. I'm afraid to say it's just starting.

[The Bullwinkle]

Let's get the timeline in perspective:

January - Chinese virus takes hold in Wuhan (Many deaths, but a small sacrifice in things to come)
February to April - Virus escapes China to the western world, destroying jobs, companies and the economy in general of pretty much every western country, and by the way, kills over a million people.
April - Entire world's airlines sent to the brink of survival. Flights stopped. Aircraft grounded, pilots, CC and support staff stood down. No international flights for a year? The world grinds to a halt.
April - Virgin AustralIa on the brink of bankruptcy. But it's only the first to fall. We know there will be many others.
Arpril 17 - Three Chinese government-owned airlines emerge as the white knights to take over Virgin Australia, at rock bottom fire sale price. (The endgame comes into focus)

Well, my friends, do you see the picture here, the irony of how this pandemic plays out? Who suffers and who profits? Who started the mess and who will benefit from it? Who will lose and who will win? We understand that Australian Foreign Investment Review Board has expanded its powers to specifically prevent foreign (PC purists, please read "Chinese") take-over of undervalued Australian assets, as a result of COVID. It seems Virgin may slip under the radar. Let's hope that doesn't happen. Next thing, God forbid, we might lease our northern harbours to them. Those same harbours that re-supply military assets, in place to counter a threat from antagonists that we are afraid to name. Madness!

Our problem is that we're too PC. We've evolved. We don't kill live animals in wet markets, we don't eat bats and dogs, we do have a certain moral ethic. Anyway what's your view? This is no time to sit on the fence and hope that the problem just goes away - it won't. I'm afraid to say it's just starting.

WOW!!!!!!!

[ozbiggles]

So the Chinese unleashed Covid to gain control of VA, wow I didn’t see the brilliance in that plan....

[Slezy9]

All so Chinese airlines can take over Virgin at a discount...

Now where did I leave my tin foil hat? :ugh:

[DUXNUTZ]

Wonder who they will go after next. Trump may have a stroke of they go after American.

[machtuk]

I don't believe the Chinese released the virus BUT they might as will cash in on its effects for free whilst the fish are caught in the barrel!

[Thaihawk]

I don't believe the Chinese released the virus BUT they might as will cash in on its effects for free whilst the fish are caught in the barrel!

I think the Chinese didn't release the virus deliberately. There can be little doubt this virus was released in China. By whom is open to debate, as the fact on whether it was deliberate or not.

One thing stands out for sure, and that is something that happened in a communist dictatorship has wrecked the economies of every Western country, and killed some 156,000 and counting as of 10:30 UTC today. That can only be of long-term benefit to that communist country in it's quest for world domination.

[Flying Hi]

I don't believe the Chinese released the virus BUT they might as will cash in on its effects for free whilst the fish are caught in the barrel!
"Might"? Wasn't it ever thus? Strip away the varnish of 'evolved society', its only ever about Money in the end.

[Double_Clutch]

Hang on....


Isnt the 5G Network causing this #fake_virus?

[ozbiggles]

I thought it was the chemtrails we have been dropping for years

[Flying Hi]

Hang on....


Isnt the 5G Network causing this #fake_virus?
Only according to Icke and his barmy army.

[Ollie Onion]

Seems like a convoluted plan when they could of just waited another 12 months for Virgin to go bankrupt of their own accord.

[Icarus2001]

The rumour of possible Chinese interest is only that. Have a look who is carrying the story and who is not.

[Global Aviator]

Forget about the sentiment of a plan to take V. The OP makes some valid points otherwise.

Yes Australia is way to PC, many have been saying it for years.

Will Covid19 actually wake the world up? Probably, but then it becomes all about money again.

Damned if you do damned if you don’t.

In a perfect world it would be nationals that own national interests, infrastructure and the likes. Hasn’t been this way for years.

So... What is the fix?

[Square Bear]

Rather than follow conspiracy, perhaps the maxim.........”you never let a serious crisis go to waste” ....is what inow should be thought by the many who who have the funding to do so.

[ozbiggles]

Welcome to the Twilight Zone.....

[ECAMACTIONSCOMPLETE]

We’re through the looking glass here people

[Toruk Macto]

VA was over valued and not worth the Australian government investing in it , now the Chinese government want to invest in it, its undervalued and we can’t let them steal it from under our noses ?

[Deltasierra010]

The aussies have been in hock to China for years, most of the national assets have already been bought up its only the small fry like Virgin that are left. The whole problem is that “lifestyle” is everything. They have been paying themselves more than they earned for many many years, other countries, the U.K. in particular are just a vulnerable to paying ourselves too much.
My real sympathy is with developing countries China is taking over whole economies, they don’t care who they deal with, any despotic regime or rebel group, payment in arms, or an offshore bank no problem. Drive through any town in Africa and count the Chinese run businesses displacing the locals, wake up!.

[ozbiggles]

Jeez, I thought it was just a plot to delay Top Gun 2

[Occy]

January - Chinese virus takes hold in Wuhan (Many deaths, but a small sacrifice in things to come)
February to April - Virus escapes China to the western world, destroying jobs, companies and the economy in general of pretty much every western country, and by the way, kills over a million people.
April - Entire world's airlines sent to the brink of survival. Flights stopped. Aircraft grounded, pilots, CC and support staff stood down. No international flights for a year? The world grinds to a halt.
April - Virgin AustralIa on the brink of bankruptcy. But it's only the first to fall. We know there will be many others.
Arpril 17 - Three Chinese government-owned airlines emerge as the white knights to take over Virgin Australia, at rock bottom fire sale price. (The endgame comes into focus)

Well, my friends, do you see the picture here, the irony of how this pandemic plays out? Who suffers and who profits? Who started the mess and who will benefit from it? Who will lose and who will win? We understand that Australian Foreign Investment Review Board has expanded its powers to specifically prevent foreign (PC purists, please read "Chinese") take-over of undervalued Australian assets, as a result of COVID. It seems Virgin may slip under the radar.

tee hee, let’s release a virus so we can buy a company with $5b Of debt, priceless!

”when you hear hoof beats, think horses, not zebras”...

[blorgwinder]

8 posts and you have it figured. Impressive. What about global warming? Inner workings of the female mind? Why is there air? All critical questions you can apply your theories to

[3Greens]

I would not be surprised that the chinese (the yellow plague i call them) deliberately delayed giving information about covid-19, knowing that this would evolve chaos and this would be regarded as a benefit for them and getting a more grip on countries and companies. ( look at their recent charming offensive in Italy).

Dont forget that chinese kids get taught during their education that the chinese culture is superior over all the rest of this planet. They simply despise every other culture.

I think it is time that the US and Europe should work more together to oppose the yellow plague.

what a disgustingly racist post.

[Lambswool]

Since the European invasion of Australia in 1788, the Aboriginal people have been oppressed into a world unnatural to their existence for thousands of years....

KARMA is a bit@h.....

Thats a big negative.

J Citizen . Well said!

Now, back to the topic. The OP's comments are certainly valid. We have been experiencing a chinese take over across all parts of the world by stealth for a number of years. Recent events may very well of been constructed or if not, will at least be used to their benefit in the greater long term plan.
Stop thinking VA is their motivating reason and more as an example of what we can expect into the future. Depressions are not always bad news, for those who have money tucked away come out the other end in a pretty good position.

[junior.VH-LFA]

You can tell there's a lockdown in progress, this thread reeks of too many glasses of red and no one to vent to, whether it be racist rants or conspiracy theories about free market economics.

[Dookie on Drums]

You can tell there's a lockdown in progress, this thread reeks of too many glasses of red and no one to vent to, whether it be racist rants or conspiracy theories about free market economics.

It sure does. People clutching at straws and failing to see reality. Hate messages in inbox. Just incredible.

[LapSap]

what a disgustingly racist post.

Don’t think for a moment that they don’t talk about us in the same way.

[slats11]

Well you decide if China levelled with the WHO and the rest of the world.

On 31December, China notified WHO about a strange pneumonia - cause unknown.
Further reports until 3 January - causal agent not identified
Then China isolated a Coronavirus on 7 January.



https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1410x1256/screen_shot_2020_04_19_at_00_21_03_779f778a734a26579880c0b9b 9a078436bf4d219.png

Except for this...

China was isolating coronavirus from patients at least as far back as 26 December.
Given our experience with SARS and MERS, I think the world would have been interested in knowing about another deadly coronavirus.
That 2 week delay was very significant given what happened next.

https://www.thelancet.com/action/showPdf?pii=S0140-6736%2820%2930251-8

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1938x926/screen_shot_2020_04_19_at_00_22_05_e3388728d04de0d963e860e58 4b8a5bc2efeb242.png

[junior.VH-LFA]

Don’t think for a moment that they don’t talk about us in the same way.

Two wrongs make a right, eh?

[LapSap]

Two wrongs make a right, eh?

Its you that thinks it’s wrong.
I worked with them for over 20 years and would have been called a “Gweilo” (Ghost Man - ie westerner ) either to my face or by them talking to each other about me within earshot at least half a dozen times a day. It would be the equivalent of me calling them “Chinks” here. Did it bother me?? Not once.
Some of us aren’t so thin skinned...

[LapSap]

Well you decide if China levelled with the WHO and the rest of the world.

On 31December, China notified WHO about a strange pneumonia - cause unknown.
Further reports until 3 January - causal agent not identified
Then China isolated a Coronavirus on 7 January.



https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1410x1256/screen_shot_2020_04_19_at_00_21_03_779f778a734a26579880c0b9b 9a078436bf4d219.png

Except for this...

China was isolating coronavirus from patients at least as far back as 26 December.
Given our experience with SARS and MERS, I think the world would have been interested in knowing about another deadly coronavirus.
That 2 week delay was very significant given what happened next.

https://www.thelancet.com/action/showPdf?pii=S0140-6736%2820%2930251-8

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1938x926/screen_shot_2020_04_19_at_00_22_05_e3388728d04de0d963e860e58 4b8a5bc2efeb242.png

And the fact that, knowing full well what was happening (it was obvious to us in Hong Kong by mid January) they chose not to upset everybody’s Lunar New Year holidays and allowed 5 million to make a run for it before doing anything to stop the spread.
The stupid thing from Australia’s perspective, was to treat visitors from Hong Kong differently to visitors from the Mainland , while HK had not closed their border. What do you think a huge % of the smart ones did??!!
“You dumb gweilos”

[srjumbo747]

Conspiracy? Absolutely! How many of their leaders has had the virus?
Also, strange that the Hong Kong riots have stopped.

[Dookie on Drums]

Here you are. The words spoken by a man of the world. The leftist swing in Australia revolts me.

[VinRouge]

Here you are. The words spoken by a man of the world. The leftist swing in Australia revolts me.
Wasn’t it Sun Tsu who taught Win all without flighting?

[Dookie on Drums]

Wasn’t it Sun Tsu who taught Win all without flighting?

I haven't had that dish...Spicy?

[slats11]

And the fact that, knowing full well what was happening (it was obvious to us in Hong Kong by mid January) they chose not to upset everybody’s Lunar New Year holidays and allowed 5 million to make a run for it before doing anything to stop the spread.
The stupid thing from Australia’s perspective, was to treat visitors from Hong Kong differently to visitors from the Mainland , while HK had not closed their border. What do you think a huge % of the smart ones did??!!
“You dumb gweilos”

Yes China implemented the most draconian quarantine measures the world has seen in the 700 years since the Black Plague. But only after allowing 5 million to get out of Hubei and ensure the horse had well and truely bolted.

At the same time, China
Complained that other countries were implementing far less draconian measures by banning flights from China, and persuaded the WHO to repeat the same nonsense.
Stripped tons of PPE from the rest of the world
Concealed the true epidemiology of the disease
Delayed approving a visit to China by a WHO field team while the composition of this team was debated

Meanwhile, the WHO
Peddled the same nonsense that countries banning flights to China was not necessary or helpful
Dragged its feet designating COVID a pandemic when it was clear to everyone else that it was.
Refused to take a question about Taiwan in order not to upset China
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlCYFh8U2xM


Meanwhile, Australian universities were paying their Chinese students to have a 2 week holiday in Thailand etc to get around the border restrictions, and urged the government to relax the restrictions

[Hoosten]

Some of you need to do some research on just 'who' the Director General of the WHO is. Who he is a puppet of, his politics and why a non-medical practitioner is the DG.

[Wooden_Blades]

A cursory google search on "Director General of the WHO" and "puppet" is startling. Thank you for the tip.

Since we're on the subject, google "WHO", "Taleb", and "Bloomberg. Very interesting.

Sorry I can't post links yet.

[Asturias56]

These comments coming from a country that has been more than happy to sell it self (literally) ton by ton to China are really too much

Where do you think all the cash comes from in Australia? From the Chinese buying your exports.............. and if you want the economy to recover you'll have to go back and ask them nicely to buy some more.......

[ehwatezedoing]

Australia was seen as "terra nullius" (nobody's land) back then. Nobody invaded anything. Unsettled land was colonised

The first fleet was mostly convicts (over 700 convicts, or over 50%) who came to set up a penal colony. There were only about 300 officers onboard (to look after the convicts no doubt, and not to fight a war).

I don't believe they would be dragging with them over 700 convicts and only 300 officers if they were going to invade anyone (fight battles/go to war).

Out of the 11 ships in the first fleet, 6 were convict transports. Since when do you use so many convicts/convict ships to invade ?



It doesn't sound like an invasion to me.
ahaha...Worst, sounds like a virus!
Body is not claimed, let's go for it.

[Hoosten]

These comments coming from a country that has been more than happy to sell it self (literally) ton by ton to China are really too much

I think you'll find that the average Joe has no say in who 'buys' Australia. That average Joe may be happy to buy Australian produced product if the Australian industry had the same government support as the imported. I reckon you'll also find that the majority of western nations are 'owned' by the Chinese, not just Australia.

In the coming years, you, from wherever you reside, may be making the same comments. Unless of course you come from you know where.

[oicur12.again]

“we don't eat bats and dogs”

No, but we eat pigs and chickens and other animals that can cause a zoonotic disease to become a pandemic such as swine flu.

Covid appears to have originated in China, however there is nothing to suggest the next one won’t originate in Australia or America or Europe.

“we do have a certain moral ethic”

Really? History may disagree.

“One thing stands out for sure, and that is something that happened in a communist dictatorship has wrecked the economies of every Western country”

Right now the global economy is in free fall not because of Covid 19, although this pandemic will certainly make things worse.

The economy is in melt down because the 2008 financial crisis never went away, central banks around the world simply continued pumping liquidity into an economic regime that was no longer functioning.

It worked for a decade but now the same banking and finance malfeasance and trickery that was a hallmark of the GFC has once again placed the world on the edge of economic collapse and the pandemic is being employed as a timely smokescreen.

“Dont forget that chinese kids get taught during their education that the chinese culture is superior over all the rest of this planet.”

You see the same overtones being taught in schools here in the US, exceptionalism occurs everywhere.

“My real sympathy is with developing countries China is taking over whole economies, they don’t care who they deal with, any despotic regime or rebel group, payment in arms,”

Do you think its any different when America or Belgium or France or the UK take over developing countries?

[highflyer40]

I would not be surprised that the chinese (the yellow plague i call them) deliberately delayed giving information about covid-19, knowing that this would evolve chaos and this would be regarded as a benefit for them and getting a more grip on countries and companies. ( look at their recent charming offensive in Italy).

Dont forget that chinese kids get taught during their education that the chinese culture is superior over all the rest of this planet. They simply despise every other culture.

I think it is time that the US and Europe should work more together to oppose the yellow plague.

That is exactly the same in the US. At least the Chinese get out of their country and experience other cultures. Most Americans think Florida is “exotic”.

[highflyer40]

Australia was seen as "terra nullius" (nobody's land) back then. Nobody invaded anything. Unsettled land was colonised

The first fleet was mostly convicts (over 700 convicts, or over 50%) who came to set up a penal colony. There were only about 300 officers onboard (to look after the convicts no doubt, and not to fight a war).

I don't believe they would be dragging with them over 700 convicts and only 300 officers if they were going to invade anyone (fight battles/go to war).

Out of the 11 ships in the first fleet, 6 were convict transports. Since when do you use so many convicts/convict ships to invade ?



It doesn't sound like an invasion to me.

Again pretty much like the pilgrims in America. Look at the native Indians and just think they are unintelligent savages so they have the right to take anything.

Best to think the “civilised” world back then weren’t so civilised. Just about the money and power.

[highflyer40]

Thats a big negative.

J Citizen . Well said!

Now, back to the topic. The OP's comments are certainly valid. We have been experiencing a chinese take over across all parts of the world by stealth for a number of years. Recent events may very well of been constructed or if not, will at least be used to their benefit in the greater long term plan.
Stop thinking VA is their motivating reason and more as an example of what we can expect into the future. Depressions are not always bad news, for those who have money tucked away come out the other end in a pretty good position.

Im sorry but even if what you say is true and China is “buying up” large parts of the worlds economy, what is the difference to the US doing that for the last 50 years? It’s just a cycle. 50 years from now it will be someone else.

[Slezy9]

Im sorry but even if what you say is true and China is “buying up” large parts of the worlds economy, what is the difference to the US doing that for the last 50 years? It’s just a cycle. 50 years from now it will be someone else.

But they don’t look like us...

[VinRouge]

I haven't had that dish...Spicy?
you didn’t notice my intentional typo... 😈


for anyone interested in “The Plan”, you can read all about what China have in stock here:


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Made_in_China_2025

[dontgive2FACs]

So the Chinese unleashed Covid to gain control of VA, wow I didn’t see the brilliance in that plan....

:8 That is the funniest thing I’ve read here in months.

[snoop doggy dog]

The biggest problem with China, in regards to the virus and as many have said, is CHINA NOT TELLING THE WORLD! :mad:

Anyone who thinks some comments on here are racist, I'd suggest they go live in China. China is at the top of pile in these STACKS. :eek:

I think the original poster was commenting on opportunistic buying around the world, especially in 3rd world countries, for years now! VA may be another opportunity for the Chinese (amongst many more), on very favourable terms. :ugh:

[layman]

It would seem that China is the 9th largest source of investment in Australia (Hong Kong is 5th).

Perhaps we should be discussing investment from the US, UK, Belgium & Japan first?

https://www.dfat.gov.au/trade/resources/investment-statistics/Pages/statistics-on-who-invests-in-australia

[packapoo]

Well said slats11

[KayPam]

So the Chinese unleashed Covid to gain control of VA, wow I didn’t see the brilliance in that plan....
Seems like a convoluted plan when they could of just waited another 12 months for Virgin to go bankrupt of their own accord.
You two don't seem to understand the original post is written about Virgin Australia because it's probably what Lazyload had in mind, but it's pretty obvious that the whole reasoning is still valid at a much larger scale.

Just imagine the first post written exactly the same, except, replace "Virgin Australia" by "Virgin Australia and a ****ton of other companies around the world, in all sectors, that will go bankrupt and available for a cheap sale"

[LapSap]

And while everybody has their eye off the ball and resources depleted...
https://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy/article/3080559/beijing-moves-strengthen-grip-over-disputed-south-china-sea

We were absolute mugs to not stand up earlier to the magical formation of Sovereign territory on reefs 1000km from the Mainland, with runways, compounds, armament - purely for “defence purposes” of course you realize. 😡

Standby for an island to open near you soon.

[Denied Justice]

Standby for an island to open near you soon

Yep - It's called VAH, proudly owned by the Chinese government coming to an airport near you.

Australians beware.

[LapSap]

It would seem that China is the 9th largest source of investment in Australia (Hong Kong is 5th).


Careful. Hong Kong is China. Saying otherwise on your booking website or inflight mag will get your Operating Rights revoked.

Thin skinned people in charge..(sorry, is that racist?)
Toe the Party Line please.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

I don’t subscribe to the deliberate “weaponised” release of this virus theory. I do believe that China will be looking at what they can do right now to benefit China.They certainly won’t be ruminating about who did what and whether it’s fair or not, they will be focused on their interests.

Maybe our nation needs to take a leaf out of their book....

[finfly1]

Nobody seems to have picked up on his "oh by the way killed millions of people". It may, but it hasn't. Just over a tenth that many. Someone may not know the difference between 'killed' and infected.'.

[Lazyload]

“8 posts and you have it figured. Impressive.” Quite correct back then but this one makes it 9. Just one more and I’ll be able to post a link which I’d really like you to read.

[ozbiggles]

Kaypam, they say don’t bring a knife to a gunfight. I think you bought the dessert fork. To be fair I think there are a few loose kangaroos in the paddock on this thread right now. Anyway back to aviation....

[Jjp321]

Let's get the timeline in perspective:

January - Chinese virus takes hold in Wuhan (Many deaths, but a small sacrifice in things to come)
February to April - Virus escapes China to the western world, destroying jobs, companies and the economy in general of pretty much every western country, and by the way, kills over a million people.
April - Entire world's airlines sent to the brink of survival. Flights stopped. Aircraft grounded, pilots, CC and support staff stood down. No international flights for a year? The world grinds to a halt.
April - Virgin AustralIa on the brink of bankruptcy. But it's only the first to fall. We know there will be many others.
Arpril 17 - Three Chinese government-owned airlines emerge as the white knights to take over Virgin Australia, at rock bottom fire sale price. (The endgame comes into focus)

Well, my friends, do you see the picture here, the irony of how this pandemic plays out? Who suffers and who profits? Who started the mess and who will benefit from it? Who will lose and who will win? We understand that Australian Foreign Investment Review Board has expanded its powers to specifically prevent foreign (PC purists, please read "Chinese") take-over of undervalued Australian assets, as a result of COVID. It seems Virgin may slip under the radar. Let's hope that doesn't happen. Next thing, God forbid, we might lease our northern harbours to them. Those same harbours that re-supply military assets, in place to counter a threat from antagonists that we are afraid to name. Madness!

Our problem is that we're too PC. We've evolved. We don't kill live animals in wet markets, we don't eat bats and dogs, we do have a certain moral ethic. Anyway what's your view? This is no time to sit on the fence and hope that the problem just goes away - it won't. I'm afraid to say it's just starting.

Yeah, a lot of money is going to be made on this, just not by the working slobs.

[Lazyload]

Nobody seems to have picked up on his "oh by the way killed millions of people". It may, but it hasn't. Just over a tenth that many. Someone may not know the difference between 'killed' and infected.'.
Yes, my bad. Sorry for misrepresenting that. The current stats are 2.3 million infections and 160,000 deaths. But Wuhan deaths are acknowledged to be under-reported. And there’s large swathes of the planet with curiously low or absent numbers, while at the same time hosting some of the most densely populated urban areas. I’m thinking India, most of Africa and lot of South America. The point I’m making is that the absence of testing does not equate to an absence of infections or deaths.

[dr dre]

I’m just waiting for the inevitable mention of George Soros, Pizzagate, Deep State Globalists or Qanon on this thread. You really can’t have a good conspiracy theorist thread these days without mentioning one of those....

[ECAMACTIONSCOMPLETE]

Jeffrey Epstein didn’t kill himself...

[crosscutter]

Role of the media?

Two News Corp papers, the Herald Sun and the Courier Mail have covered the ‘China’ story. However, Fairfax papers really haven’t touched it, and The Australian (arguably the choice of the most educated right wing) has been relatively mute and have preferred to extensively cover the Brisbane Government story and private equity investors.

So, why?

Is the China story just that, a story, designed to evoke strong reactions from the Australian ‘patriots’ to further pressure the local/federal governments?

If it is a genuine story, why aren’t the pre-eminent business papers covering it extensively? I doubt Virgin would give accurate exclusive information to the above publications and not their mates in the Fin Review etc.

I’m not convinced this is a China investment story, rather a story playing on a population with a China bias and fear. I’ve said before, if a takeover offer was announced by China, it would be politically too hot and the Federal Government would come to the party and join forces with the private equity interested parties.

[thec172man]

Role of the media?

Two News Corp papers, the Herald Sun and the Courier Mail have covered the ‘China’ story. However, Fairfax papers really haven’t touched it, and The Australian (arguably the choice of the most educated right wing) has been relatively mute and have preferred to extensively cover the Brisbane Government story and private equity investors.

So, why?

Is the China story just that, a story, designed to evoke strong reactions from the Australian ‘patriots’ to further pressure the local/federal governments?

If it is a genuine story, why aren’t the pre-eminent business papers covering it extensively? I doubt Virgin would give accurate exclusive information to the above publications and not their mates in the Fin Review etc.

I’m not convinced this is a China investment story, rather a story playing on a population with a China bias and fear. I’ve said before, if a takeover offer was announced by China, it would be politically too hot and the Federal Government would come to the party and join forces with the private equity interested parties.

This makes too much sense for this thread, and China is not dumb enough to "rescue" VA, just wait with everyone else and buy the good bits without the associated debts when and if VA goes into administration. And realistically, voters are more worried about how much rescue they get from centrelink and ATO in this crisis, than to change their votes to Labor and Greens just because they are calling for a VA rescue. In a crisis, oppositions really have limited issues to oppose about, and VA is one of those issues.

[3 Holer]

...........................

The economy is in melt down because the 2008 financial crisis never went away, central banks around the world simply continued pumping liquidity into an economic regime that was no longer functioning.

It worked for a decade but now the same banking and finance malfeasance and trickery that was a hallmark of the GFC has once again placed the world on the edge of economic collapse and the pandemic is being employed as a timely smokescreen......................



.........and you my friend have hit the nail fairly & squarely on the proverbial head

[dr dre]

.........and you my friend have hit the nail fairly & squarely on the proverbial head


On an Australian domestic front we were bound to be in trouble sooner or later anyway. Before corona retail was in recession, GDP was in per capita recession, wage growth had flat lined, employment figures were masked by high levels of casualisation and underemployment, interest rates were on a path towards zero, personal debt was almost the world’s highest paying off millions for poorly built shoebox apartments, the bushfires harmed the economy and now corona will officially put it in a recession.

I have noticed a lot of government figures are starting to play up the “China lied, our countries suffered” position, IMO to distract from what was their poor handling of the economy to begin with.

From VA’s point of view was their ever any need for two full service airline groups in a nation of 25 million when plenty of much larger nations only have one? Especially when one hasn’t been profitable for a decade?

[slats11]

I have noticed a lot of government figures are starting to play up the “China lied, our countries suffered” position, IMO to distract from what was their poor handling of the economy to begin with.

There is more then enough blame to be shared around here.

However, as a WHO member state, China had a responsibility to report what it knew to the WHO in a timely manner. It would appear China crossed this reporting threshold well before the WHO was informed.

[Lazyload]

As the OP, I'm pleased that a lot of comment has been generated. Even though I used VA as an example, this is not a story about a dysfunctional airline. It's much bigger than that (thanks to Global Aviator, Delta Sierra and Lambswool, and others for recognising this). China is a communist regime run by a dictator who has awarded himself a lifetime position in power. There's no such thing as a free market economy in China. When you buy or sell from/to any Chinese company, you are dealing directly or indirectly with the Chinese state, which of course runs the Chinese military. You can be sure that every time you buy a Chinese product, you are funding their military and their quest to dominate the world. It's called economic colonialism. And it's working because we (the West) are too PC to stop it.

Back to VA, civil aviation in Australia must be seen as a critical national resource. You can't ride a bike between Sydney and Perth. Do we really want the Chinese government controlling the domestic air travel of Australians? Think about that. Do we want them leasing strategic ports, owning prime Australian agriculture production, controlling our internet (kudos to Aus Govt - they did block Huawei, but not so the for the Brits), buying into Pacific islands (more ports, uplifted to military standards), displacing our influence in PNG, this list goes on and on. And let's not even get started into what China is doing in Africa (building multi-lane military grade freeways to Chinese owned ports in countries where the most common mode of transport is a donkey and cart).

Covid should now focus all of us on two things: a) we have lost the ability to manufacture anything ourselves. The entire world is dependent upon China for anything and everything that must be produced. And b), the world is allowing the Chinese state to purchase and run critically important sovereign assets such as power stations and water supplies. This is absolute madness, and we must stop it.

[dr dre]

So you say there’s no such thing as a free market in China, but then wish to see manufacturing returned to Australia.

The the high labor costs and need to re-equip and build factories and restore expertise in each sector it is unprofitable to bring manufacturing back to Australia without massive government intervention. Which is also against the free market.

Call for a return to “Aussie made” as you please, but you’ll be paying for it with higher prices, increases in taxes, and cuts to services.

And the one more thing, has anyone looked at the work conditions of the average factory job in China? You want that to become the standard work conditions in Australia? Be thankful it’s mostly China and Asian nations making our goods.

[The Bullwinkle]

Call for a return to “Aussie made” as you please, but you’ll be paying for it with higher prices, increases in taxes, and cuts to services.

And the one more thing, has anyone looked at the work conditions of the average factory job in China? You want that to become the standard work conditions in Australia? Be thankful it’s mostly China and Asian nations making our goods.

I'm happy to buy what I can locally and pay a premium. Tassal is a good example; more than double the price of John West et al but it's an Australian product with Australian manufacturing and Australian employment.
My family also boycotted "Bonds" and "Huggies" when the usual greed driven western mentality management sent these brands to China, throwing hundreds of Aussies out of work.

https://www.smh.com.au/business/bonds-latest-brand-to-head-offshore-20090225-8hmt.html

https://7news.com.au/business/huggies-boycott-australian-parents-vow-to-avoid-the-nappy-brand-amid-offshore-shift-c-41792

I'm sure that just one family thinking this way makes no difference in the overall scheme of things but I know that I can sleep well at night knowing that I've at least tried!

[LexAir]

Well said lazyload. It is about time we all call a spade a spade and call out China for its abuses of human rights and active dislike of free thought and democratic principles: Democracy and freedom of thought are anathema to it. We allow China to get away with things here and elsewhere in the Western World that would never be permitted within China.

We need to stop caving in to oppressive regimes in pursuit of the almighty dollar.

Lets' stop selling away our principles of freedom and justice. Principles that we have fought long and hard for over the centuries and made a cornerstone of our democracy. Freedom is precious but so easily given away. The price of democracy is constant vigilance.

[dr dre]

There is more then enough blame to be shared around here.

However, as a WHO member state, China had a responsibility to report what it knew to the WHO in a timely manner. It would appear China crossed this reporting threshold well before the WHO was informed.

China reacted quicker than the US did to the 2009 H1N1 virus and notified the WHO quicker. I didn’t hear any criticism of the US then. Besides it’s up to other countries on how they prepare and how they react to gauge their response.

The countries that would’ve had a greater amount of Chinese travellers are the ones that it borders like South Korea, Singapore, Japan, Thailand and have done much better in controlling their outbreaks rather than Europe and the US who would’ve received a lesser number of travellers. And there was a break. Wuhan was locked down on the 26th of January but infections in Europe and the US didn’t begin to dramatically rise h til March. That means China bought the West at least 5-6 weeks of spare time for them to prepare but they collectively squandered it. South Korea and the US had their first infections confirmed on the same day, but the response of SK has undoubtedly been better than the US.

[dr dre]

[QUOTE=The Bullwinkle;10755018]I'm happy to buy what I can locally and pay a premium. [QUOTE]

The vast majority of society disagrees. We live in a consumption driven service economy. People want, want, want for less, less, less. They won’t be paying double for tuna or anything else if a comparable product for half the price is sitting on the same shelf.

“Patriotism” counts for nothing. In fact a lot of consumers will view foreign made goods as better.

[The Bullwinkle]

The vast majority of society disagrees. We live in a consumption driven service economy. People want, want, want for less, less, less. They won’t be paying double for tuna or anything else if a comparable product for half the price is sitting on the same shelf.
I agree 100%. Still, it doesn't stop me trying!

[LapSap]

The the high labor costs and need to re-equip and build factories and restore expertise in each sector it is unprofitable to bring manufacturing back to Australia without massive government intervention. Which is also against the free market.

Call for a return to “Aussie made” as you please, but you’ll be paying for it with higher prices, increases in taxes, and cuts to services.

And therein lies the problem..
we’re a bunch of hypocrites.
Societally, we have an expectation of an average wage around $50,000 pa (last time I looked). Yet we do not want to pay that sort of rate for most things we buy.
Washing machine made in Oz? Sure, no problem, 4,000 bucks. T-shirt from a department store? no, not $8, try $80.
Many people will say they are happy to support the wages they expect themselves but come time to hand over the cash, it suddenly doesn’t go very far.
Actually the wages in China are starting to get ‘beyond our means’ already. So now the search is on for the next bunch of slaves who can work for us- Cambodia? Laos? Even Vietnam is reasonably developed now and stuff made there is rising in price.

[mothy1583]

Actually the wages in China are starting to get ‘beyond our means’ already. So now the search is on for the next bunch of slaves who can work for us- Cambodia? Laos? Even Vietnam is reasonably developed now and stuff made there is rising in price.

Well said. Even China is looking outside China to set up manufacturing because they have created a consumption-hungry middle class that expects more for toiling in the factories. They want the fancy stuff and bling that they make for the rest of the world. Hence we see China building infrastructure in Africa that will support soon-to-be-built factories. Why plunder the African continents' raw materials then drag them half-way across the world to pollute your backyard when you can do that in-situ with a cheap labour force? Africa, of course, is rotten with corruption, but China is no stranger to it either and can undoubtedly work it out to their advantage.

[oicur12.again]

The entire Anti China narrative that is building as a result of the Corona virus is simply playing straight into the hands of the corrupt Governments that we have elected.

You can argue until you are blue in the face as to how much the Chinese Government was aware of the virus before broadcasting it to the world.

But the virus will go away and no longer be a factor in our daily lives.

The economic consequences of fractional reserve banking, the unlimited credit creation by central banks and worthless fiat money are going to haunt us for decades.

The bottom line is this. The Chinese manufacture goods for Australian and German and English and American companies at incredibly low cost because they have such low incomes and poor health and safety standards.

We benefit from these poor wages and conditions and in fact demand that they continue. We have adopted a neo-liberal economic principal the core of which is price stabilization and the only way to achieve this is with off shore manufacturing in low wage countries.

The US and by extension its western trading partners, including Australia, can only continue this debt driven growth if countries such as China buy US debt in the form of Treasuries and most importantly if the US Dollar maintains its position as world reserve currency, something which may be changing.

So to suggest we move manufacturing back to the US or Australia is to undermine the very mechanism that fuels this entire system.

And our Governments are keenly aware that this relationship will continue despite the rhetoric from the likes of Trump promising to return manufacturing back home.

Jobs will not come back to the US (or anywhere in the west) but it is an appealing promise to the AVERAGE worker who has not seen their purchasing power increase in over 40 years.

You can call China communist, or socialist, or an abuser of human rights but like most things these labels could also apply to many of our close “allies” and indeed to our own countries as well so be careful.

[surfino]

So the Chinese unleashed Covid to gain control of VA, wow I didn’t see the brilliance in that plan....

haha you made my day

[OMAAbound]

I thought it was the chemtrails we have been dropping for years

No, no...

The Chemtrails have been protecting everyone, now we’re not flying and distributing Chemtrails, the whole world is not protected and thus gone to 💩

#TrueStory

OMAA

[dr dre]

You can call China communist, or socialist, or an abuser of human rights but like most things these labels could also apply to many of our close “allies” and indeed to our own countries as well so be careful.

If the Australian government is underwriting workers paychecks, bailing out industries, controlling access to movement between states and fining people performing non essential activities are we not heading down an economic socialist or authoritarian path? China has a poor human rights record, but we’ve done bad things too. Look at the recently released video footage of Australian SAS soldiers blatantly murdering unarmed civilians in Afghanistan, and tell me China won’t throw that back at us if we start to complain about their poor human rights record.

[exfocx]

The aussies have been in hock to China for years, most of the national assets have already been bought up its only the small fry like Virgin that are left. ...................................................

Back this bs statement up with some facts, please do name the "most of the national assets have already been bought up its only the small fry "!

My bet is the response will be *crickets*

[exfocx]

Sadly, Australia and Australians are realising that the wholesale auction of virtually all it's assets, coal,iron ore, food production, timber and water plus all future drilling and mining rights onshore and off for the next 1000 years to China was a BIG mistake. Passports, universities all up for sale and grabbed by a nation thirsty to expand.
Walk around any Australian city and the dominance of the Chinese people is obvious. It's too late to change. You must accept you are now just another "province" and tow the line. Good luck.

You should stick to the Fragrant Harbour forum. No major IO mines owned by the Chinese (by major I'm talking tons mined, so don't mention Karara as that's only 10mtpa), as with coal...lolololol, buying mines that the majors want rid and a dying industry.

Stop reading that Daily Mail rag.

[The Bunglerat]

Hmmm... And some people out there (& it would seem they really are "out there") actually wear tin foil hats & think 'The X Files' is a historically accurate documentary series. :rolleyes:

[dr dre]

Walk around any Australian city and the dominance of the Chinese people is obvious. .

That comment’s a step away from “You’ve got to play spot the Aussie these days....”

By the way, as of the 2016 census of the top 10 ethnic ancestries of Australians, the only Asian ones were Chinese at 5% and Indian at 2%. Quite a fair way behind English at 30%, Australian at 29%, Irish at 9%, Scottish at 8%.

Maybe it is appropriate for more Asian influence in Australia, given that’s where we are located, last time I checked China is closer than England or Scotland.....

[Chronic Snoozer]

That comment’s a step away from “You’ve got to play spot the Aussie these days....”

By the way, as of the 2016 census of the top 10 ethnic ancestries of Australians, the only Asian ones were Chinese at 5% and Indian at 2%. Quite a fair way behind English at 30%, Australian at 29%, Irish at 9%, Scottish at 8%.

Maybe it is appropriate for more Asian influence in Australia, given that’s where we are located, last time I checked China is closer than England or Scotland.....

Send us the Chinese Bon Scott!

[Giant Bird]

When China did tell the world definitely about Covid-19 on January 7.
If all other countries had been prepared for a pandemic (which has happened in the past and was highly likely to repeat with increased international travel), prepared with supplies of PPE, medical wards, border airports & ports designed and equipped to commence health checking at very short notice.
and then shortly after January 7 closed borders and health checked and segregated all arrivals. In that scenario even allowing for arrivals not showing symptoms transmission would have died out and the crisis outside China would have been all over before the end of March.
We should not ignore that more than twice as many people arrived in Australia infected from USA than China. At least China warned us that had a problem. USA had a huge infection problem and did not tell us for what appears to be 6 weeks. That failure on the part of USA for more than a month was far more significant in regard to infection rates in Australia than the delay of 2 or 3 weeks from China at the very beginning, because transmission was much wider later on when USA was not telling us.
The Key reason why our economy is shutdown is because we were not prepared for a pandemic and we should have been, and we are still shutdown even though community transmission is almost non existent because we will not be properly prepared for a pandemic for at least another month. It will have taken us 4 to 5 months after January 7 to get to the level of pandemic preparation we should have been at in December 2019.
We cannot blame China that we ignored the need to be properly prepared for a pandemic that was likely to happen sometime.
If we can justifiably point the finger at China for being tardy at the very beginning and warning the world there is a much bigger question to ask the USA for its much longer delay which is where the overall majority of our infections have come from.
I am particularly pissed because I was in the USA from Jan through to early March. I was clearly being potentially exposed I realise now in hindsight, but there was no attention to the issue while I was there. In the USA all attention was on the election. I was shocked to arrive back in Australia and find people social distancing.

[dr dre]

When China did tell the world definitely about Covid-19 on January 7.
If all other countries had been prepared for a pandemic (which has happened in the past and was highly likely to repeat with increased international travel), prepared with supplies of PPE, medical wards, border airports & ports designed and equipped to commence health checking at very short notice.
and then shortly after January 7 closed borders and health checked and segregated all arrivals. In that scenario even allowing for arrivals not showing symptoms transmission would have died out and the crisis outside China would have been all over before the end of March.
We should not ignore that more than twice as many people arrived in Australia infected from USA than China. At least China warned us that had a problem. USA had a huge infection problem and did not tell us for what appears to be 6 weeks. That failure on the part of USA for more than a month was far more significant in regard to infection rates in Australia than the delay of 2 or 3 weeks from China at the very beginning, because transmission was much wider later on when USA was not telling us.
The Key reason why our economy is shutdown is because we were not prepared for a pandemic and we should have been, and we are still shutdown even though community transmission is almost non existent because we will not be properly prepared for a pandemic for at least another month. It will have taken us 4 to 5 months after January 7 to get to the level of pandemic preparation we should have been at in December 2019.
We cannot blame China that we ignored the need to be properly prepared for a pandemic that was likely to happen sometime.
If we can justifiably point the finger at China for being tardy at the very beginning and warning the world there is a much bigger question to ask the USA for its much longer delay which is where the overall majority of our infections have come from.

Totally.

There were only 30 cases in Australia 6 weeks after Wuhan was locked down. The Chinese bought us time. Australia (and the West) squandered it.

It was the next 2-3 weeks when we let thousands of infected people return without monitoring into the country, the main source being the USA. But I guess our current government didn’t want to piss off the Donald in those crucial few weeks, nor are they willing to admit their own errors, so better to play up the “Yellow Peril” fears. It’s worked in Australia for over 100 years, why stop now?

[73qanda]

When you buy or sell from/to any Chinese company, you are dealing directly or indirectly with the Chinese state, which of course runs the Chinese military. You can be sure that every time you buy a Chinese product, you are funding their military and their quest to dominate the world. It's called economic colonialism. And it's working because we (the West) are too PC to stop it.
I think it’s working because we are, in recent history, primarily motivated by money. ( this could change given the right circumstances).
China is clearly setting itself up for global domination, anyone who reads a newspaper can connect the dots. The half decent leaders have known for over a decade.
China operates under a system that Western countries have fought to avoid.
There’s really only one way this is sorted out, it’s just a matter of when.
My 2cents.
PS I don’t believe Covid has anything to do with the above.

[Con Catenator]

There’s really only one way this is sorted out, it’s just a matter of when

That's exactly right - another world war is about the only way this will be sorted out, one way or the other.

China can not be allowed to pursue a policy of takeover by stealth. If governments can't or won't stop this, nothing can prevent a very major conflict in the near to medium future.

[dr dre]

That's exactly right - another world war is about the only way this will be sorted out, one way or the other.

China can not be allowed to pursue a policy of takeover by stealth. If governments can't or won't stop this, nothing can prevent a very major conflict in the near to medium future.

A major conflict with a nuclear armed power?

If anyone has forgotten the 20th century already and thinks that’s a good idea a movie to watch:

The Day After (Attack Segment)

The rest of us will live in a civilised world thanks

[neville_nobody]

A major conflict with a nuclear armed power?

If anyone has forgotten the 20th century already and thinks that’s a good idea a movie to watch:

The Day After (Attack Segment (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7VG2aJyIFrA)

Threads is the other Nuclear War movie from that era, written to scare the pants off everyone. It is much more pessimistic than The Day After.

[halas]

I really don't get the China bought us time line of thought.
They called Australia xenophobic for shutting down flights from China at the outset.
Didn't stop the Chinese folk from coming in via anywhere else though.

And those saying the Chinese are not buying up assets in Oz may need reminding:
How many assets do foreigners, let alone Australians, own in China?
Maybe small businesses, but sure as the proverbial, can be shut down or nationalized by the stroke of a pen.

The Communist Party are the biggest mafia thugs on the planet.
We are writing here without fear, where as our comrades in China can not.
And they use our free speech, media, PC to say what they want.

Also the idea of Chinese taking over VA.
Sound like a joke: Two Chinese, a Singaporean, an Arab and a Pom walk into a bar....

halas

[TWT]

This thread has accelerated downhill at a ridiculous speed. Now we're discussing WW3 :rolleyes:

[LapSap]

The bottom line is this. The Chinese manufacture goods for Australian and German and English and American companies at incredibly low cost because they have such low incomes and poor health and safety standards.

We benefit from these poor wages and conditions and in fact demand that they continue. We have adopted a neo-liberal economic principal the core of which is price stabilization and the only way to achieve this is with off shore manufacturing in low wage countries.



So what's the end game?
On one hand we've got dr Dre extolling the virtues of embracing China's growth but you say we need (indeed demand!) to make sure their low wages and conditions continue - so we can sustain our lifestyle. Which side of this equation do you expect will more likely give? And once we run out of Cambodias, Laos, Saipans, African States etc, - assuming China hasn't got there first- where do we turn to next?
Belt and Road? More like Noose and Shackles

[theranga]

The world will defiantly never be the same....

[galdian]

Cut to the chase, you're told you have to live the rest of your life in China or the USA.

Which would you choose??

Maybe simple - but sometimes things ARE that simple.
Nice to live in a country where you could make the choice yourself - and not the state make it on your behalf! :hmm:

Cheers.

[Pearly White]

On an Australian domestic front we were bound to be in trouble sooner or later anyway. Before corona retail was in recession, GDP was in per capita recession, wage growth had flat lined, employment figures were masked by high levels of casualisation and underemployment, interest rates were on a path towards zero, personal debt was almost the world’s highest paying off millions for poorly built shoebox apartments, the bushfires harmed the economy and now corona will officially put it in a recession.

I have noticed a lot of government figures are starting to play up the “China lied, our countries suffered” position, IMO to distract from what was their poor handling of the economy to begin with.

From VA’s point of view was their ever any need for two full service airline groups in a nation of 25 million when plenty of much larger nations only have one? Especially when one hasn’t been profitable for a decade?
Absolutely. Before this, the economies of many western countries, Australia included, were on their knees. CV-19 simply delivered the final coup de gras.

[exfocx]

Q1. Was China slow in telling the truth about the virus?
Ans. Yes.

Q2. Did the west still have enough time to respond?
Ans. Yes.

Most of the west stuffed around, because as usual, pollies WILL.NOT.LISTEN to experts in whatever field you can think of, with a few exceptions. Imo, Australia was lucky, Morrison was initially dragged kicking to introducing the social distancing, closing business down etc, but then appeared to awaken to what we were facing and now is staring down the likes of the Murdoch press and organisations like the IPA who are spouting all the bs about the cure being worse than the disease etc and that we should open back up to business as usual, NOW! Better late than never, but overall I think he has turned around to doing a pretty reasonable job.

Galdian, I don't believe that question is relevant to what's happened.

[Hoosten]

On the first day of February, a sunny Saturday morning in Balnarring on the Mornington Peninsula, Greg Hunt was at his son’s cricket match when he received a call from Chief Medical Officer Brendan Murphy (https://www.smh.com.au/national/brendan-murphy-the-public-face-of-australia-s-fight-against-covid-19-20200320-p54c87.html).
Federal Health Minister Greg Hunt and Chief Medical Officer Brendan Murphy address the media on January 31. The following day would prove pivotal.CREDIT:AAP

“I think it’s time,” Murphy told the Health Minister.

Over the previous week, Murphy, Hunt and Prime Minister Scott Morrison had been talking about the possibility of some kind of travel ban from China to stop the spread of the deadly coronavirus.

The Australian government had already shown a willingness to get ahead of the World Health Organisation, declaring COVID-19 to be a “disease of pandemic potential" on January 21, more than a month before the global body belatedly followed. But the travel ban would be a drastic move; it was against the advice of the WHO and would likely draw the ire of the Chinese government.
Murphy was growing increasingly concerned about the potential for a major outbreak in Australia, and he and the Australian Health Protection Principal Committee were now of the belief there had been a sustained human-to-human spread outside of China's Hubei province, the epicentre of the virus.Hunt knew he had to act fast. After his conversation with Murphy, he rang the Prime Minister to deliver the recommendation. A hastily convened teleconference of the national security committee of cabinet was set for 2pm.

By 9pm, a travel ban was in place (https://www.smh.com.au/national/travellers-from-china-to-be-banned-from-entering-australia-for-two-weeks-20200201-p53wvc.html) stopping all foreign nationals who were in mainland China from entering Australia for 14 days from the time they left the country.

Treasurer Josh Frydenberg says Australia will not follow Donald Trump in cutting funding to the World Health Organisation

February 1 would prove to be a fateful day: it was when Australia truly decided to move ahead of the WHO and never look back.

Other measures that would follow - such as the worldwide travel ban (https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/australia-bans-all-non-residents-amid-coronavirus-pandemic-20200319-p54brz.html), declaring a global pandemic, the creation of the national cabinet and social-distancing measures - all stemmed from this day.

Announcing the ban, Morrison was questioned by a journalist over why Australia was doing it against the advice of the WHO. “Because our medical advice is it’s in the interest of Australians to do so,” Morrison said.

Two days later, the WHO’s director-general, Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus, hit out at Australia and the United States for putting in place travel restrictions from China, saying there was no need for measures that “unnecessarily interfere with international travel and trade”. If anything, this reinforced the Australian government’s decision.

For a number of weeks, the government was growing increasingly concerned about the advice coming out of the WHO’s global headquarters in Geneva about the situation in China. Senior Australian health officials still valued the work of the WHO’s Western Pacific division, headquartered in the Philippines, and respected its regional director, Takeshi Kasai. A distinction was already being formed in Canberra between “Geneva and Manila”.

Fast-forward more than two months, and the extent of the WHO’s failings are obvious. Meanwhile, Australia hasn't just flattened the curve, but is now pursuing a policy of containment - and perhaps in a few weeks, outright suppression - of the virus.

But there are growing fears that US President Donald Trump’s decision to withdraw funding (https://www.smh.com.au/world/north-america/trump-to-halt-us-payments-to-who-following-handling-of-pandemic-and-china-20200415-p54jwk.html) from the WHO pending a review will only serve to further place the United Nations body under Beijing’s control.

As Trump’s America withdraws from the world, ravaged by COVID-19 and deflecting blame onto the WHO and China for its own mishandling of the pandemic, Chinese President Xi Jinping is looking to fulfil his long-held goal of “reforming and developing the global governance system” to build “a community with a shared future for mankind”.

So where did the WHO, a specialised agency of the UN established in 1948, go so wrong? Firstly, it spent all of January and most of February parroting lines from the Chinese government. The most glaring example was on January 14, when Chinese authorities were still trying to cover up the initial outbreak, and the WHO uncritically repeated China’s assertions that there was no “clear evidence of human-to-human transmission”.

WHO didn’t send experts on a field visit to Wuhan, the city where the outbreak began, until six days later on January 20. Two days after that, the WHO finally declared there was evidence of human-to-human transmission, but praised China’s efforts in containing the virus. Tedros, through all of February, was applauding the “transparency” of the Chinese response, applauding the Chinese president’s “detailed knowledge” and “personal involvement in the outbreak”.
https://static.ffx.io/images/$zoom_0.215%2C$multiply_0.4431%2C$ratio_1.5%2C$width_756%2C$ x_96%2C$y_18/t_crop_custom/q_86%2Cf_auto/d7307abfcc8551357d57029a714d986b9dd4e3ebTedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus, director-general of the World Health Organisation, with Chinese President Xi Jinping in Beijing on January 28.CREDIT:AP

When former Hong Kong health minister Margaret Chan was appointed director-general of the WHO in 2006, she was very much Beijing's choice. At the end of her term in 2017, the Chinese government knew they couldn’t install one of their own again, so they went for the next best thing, using their voting bloc at the organisation to elect Tedros over British candidate Dr David Nabarro. Tedros, formerly Ethiopia’s health minister and foreign minister, trained as a microbiologist but is the first director-general who is not a medical doctor.

Taiwan - which has been a model case in its response (https://www.smh.com.au/world/asia/population-the-same-as-australia-s-but-a-fraction-of-the-coronavirus-cases-20200412-p54j67.html) to the coronavirus - has been sidelined by the WHO at the behest of Beijing. Taiwan was previously granted observer status in the WHO’s governing body, the World Health Assembly, but was ousted in 2016 after the election of Democratic Progressive Party leader Tsai Ing-wen (https://www.smh.com.au/world/tsai-ingwen-becomes-taiwans-first-female-president-in-landslide-election-victory-20160117-gm7fvz.html), a critic of Beijing, as president. The mere mention of Taiwan from a Hong Kong reporter last month saw a senior WHO official pretend to not hear the question and shut down the interview.

There is now a bipartisan push within Australia (https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/bipartisan-call-for-who-to-accept-taiwan-as-a-member-20200414-p54jjc.html) for Canberra to change its position on Taiwanese membership. While Australia has campaigned behind the scenes for the WHO to engage more with Taiwan, it has not endorsed the country’s bid for membership of the world health body.

Australian MPs from both sides of politics have also this week called for a review into the WHO (https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/coalition-mps-call-for-review-of-australia-s-who-funding-20200415-p54jzb.html) in the wake of the virus, including its relationship with Beijing.

But the problem extends beyond the WHO. For more than a decade, China has been quietly gaining more influence over UN bodies. Four of the 15 UN specialised agencies are headed by Chinese nationals. China now contributes 12 per cent of the UN's regular budget, the second-largest monetary contributor after the US.

Beijing has also co-opted the UN’s Sustainable Development Goals by using them to promote the Belt and Road Initiative (https://www.smh.com.au/world/asia/not-china-first-china-says-sour-grapes-won-t-stop-belt-and-road-20190419-p51fom.html), Xi’s signature program to bankroll infrastructure around the world which often directly benefits Chinese firms.

There is growing evidence that Beijing has used the BRI in developing nations to create “debt traps” (https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/china-says-pacific-debt-claims-ridiculous-after-julie-bishop-raises-concerns-20180619-p4zmc4.html) by funding white-elephant projects and then wiping the debt for favours. The moulding of the UN's development goals to China's infrastructure plans has been helped by the fact that a Chinese national has been in the position of undersecretary-general of the UN’s Department of Economic and Social Affairs since 2007.

Michael Shoebridge, director of the defence program at the Australian Strategic Policy Institute, says China has used the BRI to sway more votes at the UN, and then legitimised the program by promoting it under the UN banner.

While some analysts say China is using its leverage at the UN just as any emerging or great power has in the past, Shoebridge says China is fundamentally different because of its “Leninist roots”.

“The US State Department has a public diplomacy role, but it doesn’t have a United Front Work Department (https://www.smh.com.au/world/united-front-chinas-important-magic-weapon-20171129-gzv562.html) agenda subverting or co-opting any source of opposition to its state power,” Shoebridge says. "But you have to be in it to win it; nature abhors a vacuum. Given the Chinese state is defined by opportunism, it is a very bad strategic policy by the United States to gift them the opportunity to have even more influence in UN agencies.”

Donald Trump's decision to stop US funding for the WHO plays into Beijing's hands.CREDIT:AP

The US is the biggest financial contributor to the WHO, last year forking out $US553 million ($877 million) to its $US6 billion budget. Australia is set to give $5.3 million in membership dues this year, on top of voluntary contributions, while China will give about $28.7 million. Trump's decision to halt funding will play right into the hands of Beijing, which wants to model itself as a global health leader in the wake of the pandemic.

In some ways, Western countries are reaping what they have sown: for years, the international community called on China to engage more with global institutions, and that's exactly what Beijing has done.

Dr Benjamin Zala, research fellow at the Australian National University’s College of Asia and the Pacific, says the Chinese government has increased its UN funding “because we effectively asked Beijing to do so”.

“China looks for greater influence at the UN for exactly the same reason that the US or any other great power does: it is a useful way to advance its interest,” Zala says. “Any greater influence that Chinese money buys within the UN system will be amplified by the Trump administration’s disengagement from things like the UN Human Rights Council (https://www.smh.com.au/world/europe/us-poised-to-announce-exit-from-un-human-rights-council-20180620-p4zmi5.html) or the World Health Organisation.

"Generally speaking, in these arenas power and influence matters in relative terms. So the more the US withdraws, the more influence China will be able to exert.”

UN bodies are inherently flawed, but they are only as good as their member states. Stuck between a rising authoritarian power and a transactional US President, it may be up to middle powers like Australia (https://www.theage.com.au/national/no-nation-can-conquer-pandemic-on-its-own-20200406-p54hla.html) to chart a way forward.

According to senior sources within the Australian government, the challenge will now be to work out how to encourage the WHO to reform in a way that doesn't further play into Beijing's hands.

One way to do this could be to team up with other middle powers to review its handling of the global pandemic, though it will likely wait for the US to complete its review.

At Prime Minister Morrison's request, senior bureaucrats within the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade have been reviewing Australia's commitments to global institutions, including the WHO, since late last year. A report is due to be handed to the Prime Minister in the coming months. There is no serious talk within the senior ranks of the Australian government about following Trump in defunding the WHO, with the consensus that the the UN body must be improved from within.

After all, Australia doesn't want to go it alone again. But since the first day of February, it has left no one in doubt that it can.

China sympathisers would do well to read this. Warning, critical thinking is required to see the Chinese motives.

[340drvr]

5G turned me into a newt!

[exfocx]

Housten, and the source of this news piece?

[Hoosten]

Housten, and the source of this news piece?

The Sydney Morning Herald, 19/4/20.

[-41]

https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/how-australia-bypassed-the-who-s-china-problem-20200416-p54kmc.html

[exfocx]

The Sydney Morning Herald, 19/4/20.

"The Australian government had already shown a willingness to get ahead of the World Health Organisation, declaring COVID-19 to be a “disease of pandemic potential" on January 21, more than a month before the global body belatedly followed. But the travel ban would be a drastic move; it was against the advice of the WHO and would likely draw the ire of the Chinese government."

Politics and not so honest reporting. We announced our border closure to China after the US announced its closure and where is the source of most of our CV19 infections? The US, and we didn't close our borders with the US till we closed our borders to EVERY one else.

As to the way WHO have responded with their wordings etc, that is typically of all international bodies, including the IMF, World Bank, OECD. They all are careful about their language and being critical. Did you hear the WHO being critical of US behaviour over HIV?

At the same time I wouldn't trust the CCP, but do I believe this (CV19) was deliberately let loose? No, this has wreaked havoc with their economy as much as anyone else. All the talk about China gaining from this (politically or economically) is just crap, done them more harm than good.

[theleftphalange]

If you’ve lost your career as a result of this monstrosity of government incompetence then get out and complain to your local politicians! You’ve been had royally. Who has benefited from this how the hell has this Wall Street bail out been accepted. The Federal reserve has started to buy Blackrock’s junk bond etf’s. Translation bailing out the rich no other way to say it.

Then you have this complete shill called bill gates who’s suddenly popped up everywhere trying to enforce mandatory vaccinations. Who the hell does he think he is. His bill and Melinda gates foundation is not a charity but an investment for him to profit from should governments follow his advice. Look at Robert F Kennedy comments about the man as well as many other independent scientists and whistleblowers. He has caused 1000s to suffer severe deaths/side affects from his vaccines in Africa/India. He is one of the biggest funders of the WHO which has proven itself a corrupt organisation. Do your own research! In the U.K. we have completely obliterated the economy thanks to the advice/modelling of Imperial College professor Neil Furguson and guess where this man gets his funding from Bill Gates. There were plenty of other professors from universities declaring that the numbers will be no where near as bad as what Imperial were forecasting and that the long term consequences of a continued shutdown would have a detrimental affect on the health of the population through austerity. Yet some of these were deemed tin foil hat conspiracy theorists through questioning the main stream narrative. We really have lost the plot where the population blindly follows the MSN without critical questioning. They were all playing down the virus to begin with now they just serve up complete hysteria and fear it’s just pure theatre. No credible reporting goes on at all.

But hey if you think this is all tosh then by all means continue your BBC / Sky news narrative and that all will be normal and that loads of people will be allowed and wanting to travel after this. Sadly and I really hope I’m wrong but your mistaken. It’s only when you’ve lost your livelihood through no fault of your own and reliant on government handouts which bypass you and go to their sponsors in the hedgefund world that you might start to question things. The government has never had your best interests at heart this has been a deliberate and manipulative attempt to take away independent business, destroy livelihoods and make everyone dependent on the state. If they really genuinely cared they wouldn’t have been systematically destroying the NHS over the years.

Anyway here’s Kay Burley with the latest headlines.

[Hoosten]

exfocx, I believe all of these organisations to be corrupt, whether they're manipulated by the Chinese or the US or the Eskimos. The UN is useless and as has been proven, the WHO.

I don't believe for one minute and won't be convinced that this virus was released intentionally by the Chinese. The incredibly stupid and ridiculous claims by parts of the Chinese machine that the virus was released by US Army personnel in Wuhan are just as stupid.

All I try and do is educate myself with all of the information available, keep an open mind and try and sort the ludicrous and conspiracy theories from fact.

[dr dre]

The US is the biggest financial contributor to the WHO, last year forking out $US553 million ($877 million) to its $US6 billion budget. Australia is set to give $5.3 million in membership dues this year, on top of voluntary contributions, while China will give about $28.7 million. Trump's decision to halt funding will play right into the hands of Beijing, which wants to model itself as a global health leader in the wake of the pandemic

So China contributes 0.5% to the WHO’s budget but secretly controls it over the country who puts 15% in?

For more than a decade, China has been quietly gaining more influence over UN bodies. Four of the 15 UN specialised agencies are headed by Chinese nationals. China now contributes 12 per cent of the UN's regular budget, the second-largest monetary contributor after the US.

So China, which is about 18% of the world’s population, heads up 25% of UN agencies and contributes 12% of the budget? Seems about right. If the China conspiracy theorists want to make up a good conspiracy make sure it makes sense.

They have more right to control more bodies than the country that constitutes 4% of the world’s population. America, at the most conservative estimate has bombed at least 30 countries all over the world since WW2. China’s only been involved in one major conflict they didn’t start on their doorstep (Korea) and some minor skirmishes with India and Vietnam that lasted days. China is exerting influence via airport, seaport, road, railway, school and hospital construction equipment, the US does it via a B-52 and a Predator drone. China has supplied Australia with medical equipment, the US is hoarding their own. So to answer this question:



Cut to the chase, you're told you have to live the rest of your life in China or the USA.

Which would you choose??


I would probably choose Coastal Southern California over Beijing but some of the small cities in the interior around Yuannan and Sichuan Province over the American South. I would live in Shanghai before any US city. I’ve travelled around both relatively undisturbed, however I saw far more police present cuffing people and checking IDs in the US than China. I can walk around most streets in China at any time of day without fear whereas most US street are deserted at night. I can drink a beer in peace at a street bar into the wee hours of the morning far more easily in China than the US with the added bonus of not worrying about some redneck exercising their “Second Amendment Rights”. I’d only really move to either for work and packages for expats are better in China than the US slave to the wage healthcare for profit system.

So if it was a choice between the two for life? China, for the deciding factor that the average Chinese gal is better looking and classier than the typical US single gal.

[Buster Hyman]

Politics and not so honest reporting. We announced our border closure to China after the US announced its closure and where is the source of most of our CV19 infections? The US, and we didn't close our borders with the US till we closed our borders to EVERY one else.

At the time we closed our border to China, the US had 7 cases, China had 11,821. When it was closed to the US, they were at 7100 cases, China had 81,174.

[Switchbait]

Jeffrey Epstein didn’t kill himself...

damn! You beat me to it!🤣🤣🤣

[Joker89]

So China contributes 0.5% to the WHO’s budget but secretly controls it over the country who puts 15% in?ty.

of course there is no chance that there would be any funding to organizations or individuals that wasn’t publicly disclosed. Thank you for pointing out the holes in the conspiracy.

[73qanda]

A major conflict with a nuclear armed power?

If anyone has forgotten the 20th century already and thinks that’s a good idea a movie to watch:
Nobody said it was a ‘good idea’.
If you would choose China over the States to spend the rest of your life then that says quite a lot.
Would you still choose it if the location was somebody else’s choice and you could end up in one of the Uyghur camps? Would you be able to sleep at night knowing all those children are being ‘re-educated’ in the camps? Do you support crimes like this?
Would it bother you that they’ve just made new rules about displaying religious symbols like a cross? ( hint....it doesn’t end well when you dictate what your citizens can and can’t display on the walls of their own lounge) .
Would it bother you that you might be able to drink beer into the wee hours on Wednesday but on Thursday and forever more it may be a crime punishable by imprisonment? Surely that lack of freedom and basic rights would make you uneasy about spending the rest of your life there.

[oicur12.again]

“Look at the recently released video footage of Australian SAS soldiers blatantly murdering unarmed civilians in Afghanistan, and tell me China won’t throw that back at us if we start to complain about their poor human rights record.”

Exactly. And remind me again what interests the Australian DEFENCE force has in the middle east, apart from fighting someone else’s war over energy control and greenback protection?

“China can not be allowed to pursue a policy of takeover by stealth”

China has no different vision for its place in the world than America or England before it. Spain, Portugal…..

Power and influence, access to raw materials, energy and labor.

Simply put, China wants to sit at the table and enjoy the spoils of globalisation that we have been enjoying.

The concerning thing about the rising rhetoric on this forum and in the wider community regarding the rise of China as a global player is the suggestion that they must be stopped with force.

As Dr Dre has pointed out, China is presently expanding its influence across the world in a much more neighborly way than the English did or the Americans did. I have not yet seen China engage in mass conflict in the way many other rising powers have in the past.

“…nothing can prevent a very major conflict in the near to medium future.”

I agree but for very different reasons.

“The Communist Party are the biggest mafia thugs on the planet.”

Really? I think the US Government and its lackeys in Canberra and London are. If anyone stands in the way of dollar hegemony we literally bomb the crap out of their country. Excuse me, we “liberate” them from dictators……

“Which side of this equation do you expect will more likely give?”

I guarantee that our economic system will continue to exploit cheap labor unabated until the temple comes crashing down over our heads. Which it has started to do.

“And once we run out of Cambodias, Laos, Saipans, African States etc, - assuming China hasn't got there first- where do we turn to next?”

Ourselves, because at some point in the future, with wage purchasing power flat lining for ever, we will again become affordable and the world will have turned full circle as we return to serfdom.

“The Federal reserve has started to buy Blackrock’s junk bond etf’s. Translation bailing out the rich no other way to say it.”

It is indeed, again an example of socialism for the wealthy and capitalism for the poor. And its also been suggested by some that the Treasury and Federal Reserve are now merged into a privatized operation managed by Blackrock.

“Cut to the chase, you're told you have to live the rest of your life in China or the USA. Which would you choose??”

I would refer you to the famous, yet probably inaccurate quote when someone was asked in the mid 1960’s how they felt about the French revolution.

“Its to early to say”.

My point being that today America is a pleasant place to live if you have money.

However, we are going to live through the replacement of the greenback as a foreign reserve currency and a dramatic collapse of fiat money that will have a profound impact on the US economy and the way of life here.

Coupled with a virus that is turning state versus state and Federal Government versus state with a heavily armed population who think they are being lied to, I suspect things here are going to turn very very very ugly.

So to answer your question, its too early to say.

[73qanda]

The concerning thing about the rising rhetoric on this forum and in the wider community regarding the rise of China as a global player is the suggestion that they must be stopped with force.
The concerning thing is that the rising power of China is the rising power of a system that doesn’t allow for leaders to be held to account or removed by the people.
If any power, anywhere, doesn’t allow for the people to oust the leadership then eventually, once the wrong person is in charge, atrocities will occur on a large scale. The Ausi SAS goings on are not on the same scale as the problems that may be emerging.
If you think that a system like China’s can function indefinitely without ending in large scale atrocity then that is where you and I differ fundamentally and the reason we probably won’t be able to agree on how best to go forward.
Cheers, Qanda

[Del Prado]

China kept it so quiet even their close neighbours, Taiwan, South Korea, Hong Kong, were completely blindsided and didn’t have time to test, trace and stock up on PPE.
That’s why their infection and mortality rates are on a par with US and Europe.

oh, wait.....



Maybe this Chinese narrative is being pushed by countries that had enough warning but still didn’t do anything until it was too late?

[Super Cecil]

There's still tinfoil available on the shelves, a few of you need to make some hats.

[Lazyload]

There's still tinfoil available on the shelves, a few of you need to make some hats.
Sorry, we can't make anything ourselves. Need to order from China

[dr dre]

Would you still choose it if the location was somebody else’s choice and you could end up in one of the Uyghur camps? Would you be able to sleep at night knowing all those children are being ‘re-educated’ in the camps? Do you support crimes like this?
Would it bother you that they’ve just made new rules about displaying religious symbols like a cross? ( hint....it doesn’t end well when you dictate what your citizens can and can’t display on the walls of their own lounge) .
Would it bother you that you might be able to drink beer into the wee hours on Wednesday but on Thursday and forever more it may be a crime punishable by imprisonment? Surely that lack of freedom and basic rights would make you uneasy about spending the rest of your life there.

Would you choose the US knowing if you’re black or latino there’s a good chance you could spend years in prison for possessing something as minor as a wacky plant? (5x imprisoned per capita USA vs China)
Would you sleep at night knowing your government lied about the reasons for instigating a war which killed half a million Iraqis?
Doesn’t it concern you that the murder rate is almost 9x higher in the USA with the added bonus of a populace armed to the teeth? Would you feel safe sending your kids to a school where they make them walk through a metal detector to start the day?

Given Australia’s status as America’s lackey you could ask if any Australian should feel proud about living in a nation that follows without question America on their disastrous “wars for freedom” across the globe that’ve killed millions? Yet here we all are?

China’s just joining America in the games of superpowers. America is afraid of losing it’s place. That’s the propaganda you’re hearing.

you would choose China over the States to spend the rest of your life then that says quite a lot


What does it say? I’ve spent time in both countries (that are the 1st and 3rd largest in the world and incredibly varied amongst their own regions), and assessed that I could probably live in some specific regions in both countries quite happily, but I’ll go for the nation who’s women don’t get fed at Burger King as the deciding factor. Maybe if you have a desire to eat copious amounts of fast food and own an AR-15 the US would be your preference. Great.


If any power, anywhere, doesn’t allow for the people to oust the leadership then eventually, once the wrong person is in charge, atrocities will occur on a large scale. The Ausi SAS goings on are not on the same scale as the problems that may be emerging.


Ask an Iraqi, an Afghani, a Syrian, a Libyan, an Iranian etc if it gives them comfort that that the SAS soldier who put a bullet in their father’s head/the Apache pilot who obliterated their brother with a 30mm cannon/the diplomat who instituted sanctions on medical supplies that their mother needed came from a democratic country? Though it really doesn’t matter because regardless of which party is in control in America or Australia the foreign policy is the same, we definitely don’t have a choice on that.

[Des Dimona]

Ask an Iraqi, an Afghani, a Syrian, a Libyan, an Iranian etc if they think their own governments have any culpability in this ??

[itsnotthatbloodyhard]

I’ll go for the nation who’s women don’t get fed at Burger King as the deciding factor.

I’ll go for the nation that hasn’t had a Great Leap Forward, a Cultural Revolution, a Tiananmen Square massacre, ‘social credit points’, a million Uighurs in concentration camps and a communist dictatorship as the deciding factor. But each to their own. I’m not that keen on either option myself, but it seems that only one of them has a heap of people desperate to migrate there.

[Gnadenburg]

China has domestic food safety issues at all levels. Fast food is a terrible choice of Americans and now Chinese. The US has an amazing choice of healthy and safe food.

I'd choose America and an AR15 with a dazzler to protect my vegie patch. :}

[dr dre]

I’ll go for the nation that hasn’t had a Great Leap Forward, a Cultural Revolution, a Tiananmen Square massacre, ‘social credit points’, a million Uighurs in concentration camps and a communist dictatorship as the deciding factor. But each to their own. I’m not that keen on either option myself, but it seems that only one of them has a heap of people desperate to migrate there.

What about the one that had a genocide of native Americans, was one of the last in the Western world to abolish slavery only after a civil war when half the country rebelled to keep slaves, cops who get incredibly trigger happy (the police murder of Australian expat Justine Damond in America recently is one great example) , an NSA spying regime, has bombed and invaded numerous nations for financial gain, has overthrown dozens of democratically elected governments to replace them with dictators when those democratically elected governments don’t toe the line, has the worlds highest prison population (total and per capita), has a much high murder and crime rate than most of the western world?

You could probably say that a nation that didn’t recognise its indigenous population as human beings until 1967 probably deserves to be in the same category as well.......

[The Bullwinkle]

What about the one that had a genocide of native Americans, was one of the last in the Western world to abolish slavery only after a civil war when half the country rebelled to keep slaves, cops who get incredibly trigger happy (the police murder of Australian expat Justine Damond in America recently is one great example) , an NSA spying regime, has bombed and invaded numerous nations for financial gain, has overthrown dozens of democratically elected governments to replace them with dictators when those democratically elected governments don’t toe the line, has the worlds highest prison population (total and per capita), has a much high murder and crime rate than most of the western world?

You could probably say that a nation that didn’t recognise its indigenous population as human beings until 1967 probably deserves to be in the same category as well.......
The fact is that we know about all of this in the USA, but there is so much that goes on in China that we’re never going to find out about!

[Buster Hyman]

The US has an amazing choice of healthy and safe food.
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/800x400/1587350160_8fd2ecd0b4149e18db67b3c294db1c60cb722d9b.jpeg
:}

[Gnadenburg]

Someone is swinging between Lenin's useful idiot and a want of some sort of bizarre national flagellation.

China is a brutal regime past, present and future that we have a complex relationship with. Simple contrarian arguments and elemental history lessons seem to me to be rather pointless when moving forward.

[mattyj]

Sounds like the research going on in wuhan was started in NIH labs in the USA and was outsourced to China anyway. The yanks were paying us$3.7 million in taxpayer funds to China to research coronaviruses for them. Dr Fauci was in charge of the program..typical saving money by outsourcing to China then scapegoat them when it goes wrong

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8188429/amp/Dr-Fauci-revealed-fears-surprise-outbreak-three-YEARS-pandemic.html

[Buster Hyman]

Sounds like the research going on in wuhan was started in NIH labs in the USA and was outsourced to China anyway. The yanks were paying us$3.7 million in taxpayer funds to China to research coronaviruses for them. Dr Fauci was in charge of the program..typical saving money by outsourcing to China then scapegoat them when it goes wrong

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8188429/amp/Dr-Fauci-revealed-fears-surprise-outbreak-three-YEARS-pandemic.html
Is that the right article? It was about Fauci predicting the pandemic three years ago. No mention of outsourced research that I could see.

[oicur12.again]

“The concerning thing is that the rising power of China is the rising power of a system that doesn’t allow for leaders to be held to account or removed by the people.”

How much accountability was there when the US overthrew the leader of Guatemala then funded, trained and armed the death squads that were responsible for the murder of over 3000 civilians in a civil war that killed over 200,000.

Or in Nicaragua where the ICJ found that America “violated international law” by directly supporting the contras in a war that killed over 30,000 people and many civilians.

Or El Salvador. Or Honduras. Or Chile. Or Uruguay. Or Panama.

Or as Dr Dre mentioned previously, in Libya, Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan. And Vietnam and Laos and Cambodia.

There was zero accountability displayed by everyone in the US from the President down to the point where some of the architects of this activity have returned to participate in the totally manufactured coming conflict with Venezuela.

Can you honestly lay these same charges against China?

“The Ausi SAS goings on are not on the same scale as the problems that may be emerging.”

May be emerging? What exactly are you implying there. What nefarious activities do you think “may” be emerging with China as apposed to the actual problems that America has created in violating international law.

"If you think that a system like China’s can function indefinitely without ending in large scale atrocity then that is where you and I differ fundamentally and the reason we probably won’t be able to agree on how best to go forward.”

Do you think the “system” like America’s has not resulted in large scale atrocity? How many people in Iraq have been unnecessarily killed as a result of the lies about WMD?

“Ask an Iraqi, an Afghani, a Syrian, a Libyan, an Iranian etc if they think their own governments have any culpability in this ??"

Perhaps you could provide some clear examples of how these Governments are culpable in the total destruction of their nations.

[JustinHeywood]

It’s scary to see the blinkered world view of some posters on this thread.

-Australia’s response to the Covid threat has been ‘inept’?
-It’s all part of some dastardly Chinese plot to take over the world?
-Bill Gates. WTF?
-China would be a great place to live!
Surely someone can work the Illuminati and/or the CIA into the narrative somehow.

Here’s a helpful hint for some of you: the world is chaotic, complex and rarely black and white - but if you see the same bad guys behind every event, perhaps you aren’t seeing very clearly.

[Paragraph377]

“The concerning thing is that the rising power of China is the rising power of a system that doesn’t allow for leaders to be held to account or removed by the people.”

How much accountability was there when the US overthrew the leader of Guatemala then funded, trained and armed the death squads that were responsible for the murder of over 3000 civilians in a civil war that killed over 200,000.

Or in Nicaragua where the ICJ found that America “violated international law” by directly supporting the contras in a war that killed over 30,000 people and many civilians.

Or El Salvador. Or Honduras. Or Chile. Or Uruguay. Or Panama.

Or as Dr Dre mentioned previously, in Libya, Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan. And Vietnam and Laos and Cambodia.

There was zero accountability displayed by everyone in the US from the President down to the point where some of the architects of this activity have returned to participate in the totally manufactured coming conflict with Venezuela.

Can you honestly lay these same charges against China?

“The Ausi SAS goings on are not on the same scale as the problems that may be emerging.”

May be emerging? What exactly are you implying there. What nefarious activities do you think “may” be emerging with China as apposed to the actual problems that America has created in violating international law.

"If you think that a system like China’s can function indefinitely without ending in large scale atrocity then that is where you and I differ fundamentally and the reason we probably won’t be able to agree on how best to go forward.”

Do you think the “system” like America’s has not resulted in large scale atrocity? How many people in Iraq have been unnecessarily killed as a result of the lies about WMD?

“Ask an Iraqi, an Afghani, a Syrian, a Libyan, an Iranian etc if they think their own governments have any culpability in this ??"

Perhaps you could provide some clear examples of how these Governments are culpable in the total destruction of their nations.
And how can we forget that ugly bulldog Madeleine Albright when asked about the fact that that a half million children have died in the Iraq war, more children than died in Hiroshima. Is the price worth it? Albright said; “I think this is a very hard choice, but the price–we think the price is worth it”.

The coalition of the killing, lead by the USA and its lapdogs are equally culpable when it comes to the loss of human life. And let’s not forget their ‘Federal Reserve’ is a Private banking cartel that controls the Government and America’s finances, a nation of over 300 million people held captive to a private system. What an utter joke.

[WhataCrazyPlace]

So the Chinese unleashed Covid to gain control of VA, wow I didn’t see the brilliance in that plan....

:D:D:D
I don’t think anyone saw that one coming, particularly given Virgin is almost wholly foreign owned to begin with....

Other than that it’s.... nope, it’s still one of the worst conspiracy theories I’ve ever heard.

Where’s the damn rolling on the floor laughing emoji!

[DHC8 Driver]

I don't believe the Chinese released the virus BUT they might as will cash in on its effects for free whilst the fish are caught in the barrel!


exactly!!!!!!

[George Glass]

What about the one that had a genocide of native Americans, was one of the last in the Western world to abolish slavery only after a civil war when half the country rebelled to keep slaves, cops who get incredibly trigger happy (the police murder of Australian expat Justine Damond in America recently is one great example) , an NSA spying regime, has bombed and invaded numerous nations for financial gain, has overthrown dozens of democratically elected governments to replace them with dictators when those democratically elected governments don’t toe the line, has the worlds highest prison population (total and per capita), has a much high murder and crime rate than most of the western world?

You could probably say that a nation that didn’t recognise its indigenous population as human beings until 1967 probably deserves to be in the same category as well.......

Aaaah , the self loathing purveyors of moral equivalence are still alive and well.
Remember this......
When Vietnam was partitioned 1954 900,000 Vietnamese fled south. 2,000,000 more were stopped by the Viet Minh.
Nobody risked their lives to climb over barbed wire to get INTO Hungary Poland or Czechoslovakia during the Cold War.
Nobody climbed over the Berlin Wall to get INTO East Berlin.
Meanwhile China killed 50 million of its own people in the Great Leap Forward and then another couple of million in the Cultural Revolution and millions more sent off to “re-education camps”.
And then there is the Gulag Archipelago......
Etc. Etc.
The USA made many mistakes. Nobody denies that. But the world would be a dismal place without it.
The world is about to find out what its like when the USA walks away.
And its going to be ugly.

[Asturias56]

This whole thread needs to move to Jet Blast................

[Gypsy]

Let's get the timeline in perspective:

January - Chinese virus takes hold in Wuhan (Many deaths, but a small sacrifice in things to come)
February to April - Virus escapes China to the western world, destroying jobs, companies and the economy in general of pretty much every western country, and by the way, kills over a million people.
April - Entire world's airlines sent to the brink of survival. Flights stopped. Aircraft grounded, pilots, CC and support staff stood down. No international flights for a year? The world grinds to a halt.
April - Virgin AustralIa on the brink of bankruptcy. But it's only the first to fall. We know there will be many others.
Arpril 17 - Three Chinese government-owned airlines emerge as the white knights to take over Virgin Australia, at rock bottom fire sale price. (The endgame comes into focus)

Well, my friends, do you see the picture here, the irony of how this pandemic plays out? Who suffers and who profits? Who started the mess and who will benefit from it? Who will lose and who will win? We understand that Australian Foreign Investment Review Board has expanded its powers to specifically prevent foreign (PC purists, please read "Chinese") take-over of undervalued Australian assets, as a result of COVID. It seems Virgin may slip under the radar. Let's hope that doesn't happen. Next thing, God forbid, we might lease our northern harbours to them. Those same harbours that re-supply military assets, in place to counter a threat from antagonists that we are afraid to name. Madness!

Our problem is that we're too PC. We've evolved. We don't kill live animals in wet markets, we don't eat bats and dogs, we do have a certain moral ethic. Anyway what's your view? This is no time to sit on the fence and hope that the problem just goes away - it won't. I'm afraid to say it's just starting.


you missed the bit where it started in November but the Chinese covered it up helped by WHO ineptitude

[Lazyload]

you missed the bit where it started in November but the Chinese covered it up helped by WHO ineptitude
Well caught!:)

[Chiefttp]

Aaaah , the self loathing purveyors of moral equivalence are still alive and well.
Remember this......
When Vietnam was partitioned 1954 900,000 Vietnamese fled south. 2,000,000 more were stopped by the Viet Minh.
Nobody risked their lives to climb over barbed wire to get INTO Hungary Poland or Czechoslovakia during the Cold War.
Nobody climbed over the Berlin Wall to get INTO East Berlin.
Meanwhile China killed 50 million of its own people in the Great Leap Forward and then another couple of million in the Cultural Revolution and millions more sent off to “re-education camps”.
And then there is the Gulag Archipelago......
Etc. Etc.
The USA made many mistakes. Nobody denies that. But the world would be a dismal place without it.
The world is about to find out what its like when the USA walks away.
And its going to be ugly.

Well said ☝️

[Fliegenmong]

It’s scary to see the blinkered world view of some posters on this thread.

-Australia’s response to the Covid threat has been ‘inept’?
-It’s all part of some dastardly Chinese plot to take over the world?
-Bill Gates. WTF?
-China would be a great place to live!
Surely someone can work the Illuminati and/or the CIA into the narrative somehow.

Here’s a helpful hint for some of you: the world is chaotic, complex and rarely black and white - but if you see the same bad guys behind every event, perhaps you aren’t seeing very clearly.

Well actually no Justin....what scares me is the amount of unpaid overtime that Australians work...clearly some Australian business cannot function within their own employment contracts....to put that another..way they are not able to function without demanding free labour, it occurs to me then that business in Australia cannot survive without the exploitation of staff...Unions demans too high a wage?? Lower the rentals on your investment properties to meet the lower wages of the people that enrich you!

BTW, your beloved LNP Gummint has done a sterling job of screwing over the economy...and it has been a real thing to watch the economy slide into recession before the corona thing, 'cos the LNPsure have not been able to make the economy strong...

...oh wait,..it's all someoe elses fault right?

[Buster Hyman]

Wondered where the 'True believer' had gotten to.

[magyarflyer]

quote "Well actually no Justin....what scares me is the amount of unpaid overtime that Australians work...clearly some Australian business cannot function within their own employment contracts....to put that another..way they are not able to function without demanding free labour, it occurs to me then that business in Australia cannot survive without the exploitation of staff...Unions demans too high a wage?? Lower the rentals on your investment properties to meet the lower wages of the people that enrich you!"

you should watch "American factory" on Netflix and see the comparison between a western society and China, rather depressing in short a glass factory owned by a Chinese mogul supported by the Chinese government trying to coexist with American work standards and the clash of cultures worth the 100 minute spiel

[oicur12.again]

magyarflyer

I have seen the documentary and it is indeed interesting, especially when the Americans were amazed at the high quality of glass the Chinese were producing and only wished that one day they could do the same in their US facility.

But the way the Chinese didn't care about planning for weather because the boss said it would not rain therefore it will not rain.

Priceless!

[Sunfish]

What about the one that had a genocide of native Americans, was one of the last in the Western world to abolish slavery only after a civil war when half the country rebelled to keep slaves, cops who get incredibly trigger happy (the police murder of Australian expat Justine Damond in America recently is one great example) , an NSA spying regime, has bombed and invaded numerous nations for financial gain, has overthrown dozens of democratically elected governments to replace them with dictators when those democratically elected governments don’t toe the line, has the worlds highest prison population (total and per capita), has a much high murder and crime rate than most of the western world?

You could probably say that a nation that didn’t recognise its indigenous population as human beings until 1967 probably deserves to be in the same category as well.......
Aaaah , the self loathing purveyors of moral equivalence are still alive and well.
Remember this......
When Vietnam was partitioned 1954 900,000 Vietnamese fled south. 2,000,000 more were stopped by the Viet Minh.
Nobody risked their lives to climb over barbed wire to get INTO Hungary Poland or Czechoslovakia during the Cold War.
Nobody climbed over the Berlin Wall to get INTO East Berlin.
Meanwhile China killed 50 million of its own people in the Great Leap Forward and then another couple of million in the Cultural Revolution and millions more sent off to “re-education camps”.
And then there is the Gulag Archipelago......
Etc. Etc.
The USA made many mistakes. Nobody denies that. But the world would be a dismal place without it.
The world is about to find out what its like when the USA walks away.
And its going to be ugly.

>.........And during the 40’s, 50’s, 60’s the USA was a beacon of hope and courage for the rest of the world. The only restraint on the dead hand of communism.

Then, it f@#$ked up.

Now it wants to be world policeman.

[Chiefttp]

The Italians were in the process of embracing China and separating from the “Evil USA” so were parts of Europe, who were ready to contract out to Huawei their 5G networks.......hows that working out so far ?

[sheikhthecamel]

I guarantee that our economic system will continue to exploit cheap labor unabated until the temple comes crashing down over our heads. Which it has started to do.
“And once we run out of Cambodias, Laos, Saipans, African States etc, - assuming China hasn't got there first- where do we turn to next?”
Ourselves, because at some point in the future, with wage purchasing power flat lining for ever, we will again become affordable and the world will have turned full circle as we return to serfdom.“

Automation and AI. And unfortunately that will come to the front end of the aircraft as well. CC may well still be needed though.

[VinRouge]

Automation and AI. And unfortunately that will come to the front end of the aircraft as well. CC may well still be needed though.
having seen Chinese coding in a range of
equipment, I won’t be going anything Chinese made in a safety critical environment.

[Asturias56]

The Italians were in the process of embracing China and separating from the “Evil USA” so were parts of Europe, who were ready to contract out to Huawei their 5G networks.......hows that working out so far ?


Well BT in the UK reckon they'll have to wait until at least 2023 to source equivalent kit to the stuff they CURRENTLY have installed from HuaWei.

So you can decide not to use Chinese gear and gradually fall further and further behind technology wise.......

Don't understand why people are in a fuss about Chinese technology but are happy to use US & Israeli kit .............

[kangaroota]

What about the one that had a genocide of native Americans, was one of the last in the Western world to abolish slavery only after a civil war when half the country rebelled to keep slaves, cops who get incredibly trigger happy (the police murder of Australian expat Justine Damond in America recently is one great example) , an NSA spying regime, has bombed and invaded numerous nations for financial gain, has overthrown dozens of democratically elected governments to replace them with dictators when those democratically elected governments don’t toe the line, has the worlds highest prison population (total and per capita), has a much high murder and crime rate than most of the western world?

You could probably say that a nation that didn’t recognise its indigenous population as human beings until 1967 probably deserves to be in the same category as well.......
Damond was murdered by a Somalian immigrant who had been fast-tracked into the police force under a diversity scheme. In his two years as a police officer he had three formal complaints against him.
In 2015, two psychiatrists and other training officers raised concerns over his fitness for duty.
Two months before the shooting he pointed a gun at the head of a motorist he had pulled over for a minor traffic violation.
It cost the City Of Minneapolis $20 million to settle the subsequent lawsuit.

[dr dre]

Damond was murdered by a Somalian immigrant who had been fast-tracked into the police force under a diversity scheme. In his two years as a police officer he had three formal complaints against him.
In 2015, two psychiatrists and other training officers raised concerns over his fitness for duty.
Two months before the shooting he pointed a gun at the head of a motorist he had pulled over for a minor traffic violation.
It cost the City Of Minneapolis $20 million to settle the subsequent lawsuit.

Your point being? Doesn't matter where he was from or how bad his training was (I've read screening and training for US cops is very minimal) he was still a law enforcement officer in the USA who killed an unarmed, non threatening civilian. Police officers in the USA have a bad track record of shooting people who aren't armed, aren't posing a threat, and even some complying with orders. Is China worse? I'm not sure, stats say they shoot less but execute more. But China is meant to be an authoritarian dictatorship and the US supposedly the land of freedom. It's unquestionable the American police are more violent and disrespecting of due process than Aussie, NZ, Canadian, European and other East Asian police forces from democratic countries. The US shouldn't be held up as a beacon of democracy in that respect.

[Geoff Hunt]

This thread has accelerated downhill at a ridiculous speed. Now we're discussing WW3 :rolleyes:

Couldn't agree more.

[73qanda]

The US shouldn't be held up as a beacon of democracy in that respect.
Very reasonable statement that can easily be argued sensibly Dre.
How important do you think democracy is? Do you think it is worth going to war to prevent the overthrow of democratic rule?
Cheers

[RedClaw]

Very reasonable statement that can easily be argued sensibly Dre.
How important do you think democracy is? Do you think it is worth going to war to prevent the overthrow of democratic rule?
Cheers

Sure is. Communism is an evil agenda.

[kangaroota]

Your point being? Doesn't matter where he was from or how bad his training was (I've read screening and training for US cops is very minimal) he was still a law enforcement officer in the USA who killed an unarmed, non threatening civilian. Police officers in the USA have a bad track record of shooting people who aren't armed, aren't posing a threat, and even some complying with orders. Is China worse? I'm not sure, stats say they shoot less but execute more. But China is meant to be an authoritarian dictatorship and the US supposedly the land of freedom. It's unquestionable the American police are more violent and disrespecting of due process than Aussie, NZ, Canadian, European and other East Asian police forces from democratic countries. The US shouldn't be held up as a beacon of democracy in that respect.
My point being - this individual was appointed on the basis of his race, not necessarily his suitability. Seems a poor example to choose when cop bashing.

[73qanda]

Sure is. Communism is an evil agenda.
I agree RedClaw.
I am just wanting to figure out what dr dre’s position is on democracy. I can see Dre is anti USA but am unsure what system of rule he supports/ thinks is best, and I’m keen to understand where he sits.
Dre?