Media coverage of govt support for VA

[MelbourneFlyer]

It's interesting to see who is coming out against a govt bail-out of Virgin Australia and who is coming out strongly in favour of it.

Fairfax and The Australian appears to have a foot in both camps, most columnists are outright against it and some support some measure of govt assistance.

But if anybody caught GT on ABC Radio this morning, boy oh boy, he may as well take on a new job as a paid lobbyist for VA! It was actually embarrassing to hear and embarrassing that ABC gave so much air time to somebody who is supposed to be 'independent' yet painting the worst doom and gloom scenario for a world without Virgin Australia. Now I hope Virgin Australia survives, I am not a hater, but I'm not sold on the government giving them a billion dollars of taxpayer money, which will open the floodgates for other failed and failing companies and inevitably mean that the government ends up as a major shareholder of Virgin and suddenly the airline comes a political football instead of a business.

Anyway, more of GT's rabid "The Government MUST bail-out Virgin!" at https://www.airlineratings.com/news/australian-airfares-jump-20-percent-government-doesnt-support-airlines/ and also https://www.airlineratings.com/news/failure-virgin-australia-cost-travellers-50-billion-10-years/

It looks like GT now has membership of Virgin's The Club as well as the Qantas Chairman's Lounge!

[Renton Field]

Er yeah,’bout time,he’s been one of the most pro-Q people in the MSM since ......forever.
Maybe his attempt at a square-up.

[topend3]

I will be very surprised if they get given a billion dollars of taxpayers money. Govt will be conscious if they do that for VA how many other different companies in other sectors will want the same.

[Turnleft080]

I will be very surprised if they get given a billion dollars of taxpayers money. Govt will be conscious if they do that for VA how many other different companies in other sectors will want the same.

I will be very surprised if the US government gave 25 billion to half a dozen airlines in the US. Oh! What a surprise they have.

Spirit Airlines just recorded a 160 million loss for the Q1 loss though welcomes a 1.2 billion bail out.
Southwest will get 3.2 billion.
American will get 5.8 billion.
Delta will get 5.4 billion United similar figure.

[machtuk]

We live in interesting times indeed!
'If' the Govt don't hand over tax dollars I can't see VA coming back from this, catch 22 situation, damned if they do damned if they dont,

[crosscutter]

GT and Airline Ratings are sponsored by several airlines. Virgin is one of them. Of course he doesn’t want them gone...it’s bad for business.

[Paragraph377]

I will be very surprised if they get given a billion dollars of taxpayers money. Govt will be conscious if they do that for VA how many other different companies in other sectors will want the same.

I will be very surprised if the US government gave 25 billion to half a dozen airlines in the US. Oh! What a surprise they have.

Spirit Airlines just recorded a 160 million loss for the Q1 loss though welcomes a 1.2 billion bail out.
Southwest will get 3.2 billion.
American will get 5.8 billion.
Delta will get 5.4 billion United similar figure.
With an ‘official’ national debt of around $24 trillion and an ‘unofficial’ debt of around $300 trillion they simply couldn’t care less. Just print more money and kick the can further down the road, keep the Ponzi scheme growing. When it all falls apart, and it will, it will make the Great Depression, 87 and 2008 look like Childs play. Irresponsible and reckless fools.

[What The]

With an ‘official’ national debt of around $24 trillion and an ‘unofficial’ debt of around $300 trillion they simply couldn’t care less. Just print more money and kick the can further down the road, keep the Ponzi scheme growing. When it all falls apart, and it will, it will make the Great Depression, 87 and 2008 look like Childs play. Irresponsible and reckless fools.

Unless they forgive all debt owed to China as a result of recompense for the damage caused by the “China Virus”.
It is most definitely on the cards and the Commander in Chief is just mad enough to do it.
I hope we don’t head into war at the end of this. Tensions are high and nationalism is the mantra.

[TBM-Legend]

Unless they forgive all debt owed to China as a result of recompense for the damage caused by the “China Virus”.
It is most definitely on the cards and the Commander in Chief is just mad enough to do it.
I hope we don’t head into war at the end of this. Tensions are high and nationalism is the mantra.


Accounting 101 says the borrower [USA in this case] can't forgive a debt to a lender [China]. It has to the other way round!

[What The]

Accounting 101 says the borrower [USA in this case] can't forgive a debt to a lender [China]. It has to the other way round!

Oh no. They will forgive it because they will say “sorry we are not paying you for our bonds, loans etc. and all is forgiven”
Semantics

[MelbourneFlyer]

This morning's diatribe is so misleading it almost qualifies as "fake news".

https://www.airlineratings.com/news/australian-government-gave-qantas-3-26-billion-1993

"AUSTRALIAN GOVERNMENT GAVE QANTAS $3.26 BILLION IN 1993"

"The Australian government gave Qantas the 2020 equivalent of A$3.26 billion in 1993 to recapitalise the airline ahead of its float. The actual amount was A$1.35 billion but in 2020 dollars depending upon the measurement criteria that is up to A$5.63 billion."

This was back when Qantas was a government-owned airline! So yeah, okay, the government gave Qantas money when it owned Qantas. Big whoop. Up next: the Government gave money to Australia Post, or Medicare? GT is really going off the rails with this sensationalist clickbait nonsense which falls apart the moment you read past the headline and engage your brain and actually think. Not that he wants anybody to do that, he just wants people to look at the headline and pump their fists and shout for that billion dollar bail-out. Sad!

[planejane]

This morning's diatribe is so misleading it almost qualifies as "fake news".

https://www.airlineratings.com/news/australian-government-gave-qantas-3-26-billion-1993

"AUSTRALIAN GOVERNMENT GAVE QANTAS $3.26 BILLION IN 1993"

"The Australian government gave Qantas the 2020 equivalent of A$3.26 billion in 1993 to recapitalise the airline ahead of its float. The actual amount was A$1.35 billion but in 2020 dollars depending upon the measurement criteria that is up to A$5.63 billion."

This was back when Qantas was a government-owned airline! So yeah, okay, the government gave Qantas money when it owned Qantas. Big whoop. Up next: the Government gave money to Australia Post, or Medicare? GT is really going off the rails with this sensationalist clickbait nonsense which falls apart the moment you read past the headline and engage your brain and actually think. Not that he wants anybody to do that, he just wants people to look at the headline and pump their fists and shout for that billion dollar bail-out. Sad!

Well it was a little more complicated than that Melbourne Flyer. Below is an extract from the history books for those wanting some more reference. Governments and people have very short memories. The arguments of not assisting an essential service due to government policy (which has been necessary of course) are ludicrous. it goes without saying, Australia will be in a worse situation without VA post-COVID-19. Remember, VA are not asking for a handout - it's a loan to provide assurance for their survival.

'Change came swiftly and dramatically for Qantas in the mid-1990s. In June 1992, the Australian government approved Qantas's purchase of 100 percent of Australian Airlines' shares for AUD 400 million; in October 1993, the operations of Qantas and Australian Airlines were merged under a single brand: "Qantas--The Australian Airline." It was also announced in June 1992 that later that year 49 percent of Qantas would be sold through a trade sale, and the remaining 51 percent would be floated publicly during the first half of 1993. Foreign interests were to be allowed to invest up to 35 percent, with the Australian government retaining a "golden share." These plans were soon altered, however, when British Airways in late 1992 stepped in with an offer that was accepted--and completed in March 1993--to buy a 25 percent stake in Qantas for AUD 665 million ($470 million). The move was part of British Airways' push to create a global airline by forming a series of alliances, and it followed previous British Airways deals for 49 percent of TAT of France, 49 percent of Deutsche BA, and 31 percent of Air Russia. British Airways soon added a 25 percent stake in American carrier USAir. Meanwhile, in March 1993 the Australian government pumped AUD 1.35 billion into Qantas to enhance the company's competitive position ahead of privatization.'

Read more: https://www.referenceforbusiness.com/history2/40/Qantas-Airways-Ltd.html#ixzz6Jk0EKPff

[John Citizen]

Meanwhile, in March 1993 the Australian government pumped AUD 1.35 billion into Qantas


Qantas was still owned by the government back then.

Why don't the owners of Virgin also pump some money into it ?

Also just a few months later After a number of delays, the remainder of the Qantas float proceeded in 1995. The public share offer took place in June and July of that year, with the government receiving A$1.45 billion in proceeds

Can Virgin do the same a few months later?

History of Qantas (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Qantas)

[MelbourneFlyer]

Meanwhile, in March 1993 the Australian government pumped AUD 1.35 billion into Qantas to enhance the company's competitive position ahead of privatization.'

It makes perfect sense to ensure that the newly-privatised Qantas would be on a competitive footing and thus in a position to deliver maximum returns.

Virgin Australia, on the other hand, is privately owned. Virgin can go and raise more money from private sources if it wants, and that appears to be what they're doing, and I hope they get the money from big Australian companies and investors who 'get' Virgin and what it's trying to do. But I can't justify over a billion dollars of taxpayer money, of debt which I and my kids will be saddled with, being used to prop up a private company.

[planejane]

It makes perfect sense to ensure that the newly-privatised Qantas would be on a competitive footing and thus in a position to deliver maximum returns.

Virgin Australia, on the other hand, is privately owned. Virgin can go and raise more money from private sources if it wants, and that appears to be what they're doing, and I hope they get the money from big Australian companies and investors who 'get' Virgin and what it's trying to do. But I can't justify over a billion dollars of taxpayer money, of debt which I and my kids will be saddled with, being used to prop up a private company.

OK, Melbourne Flyer that's your opinion and I'm not here to change it, but you do realise that you and your kids won't be burdened with this debt? It's a loan or part equity - not a grant as has been given to the regionals (Rex is over 60% foreigner owned). The main owners of VA are all airlines and where are they going to find the money now? Interestingly all (except Bransons' Virgin Atlantic) have been given government assistance (not a loan). Remember QF is 49% foreigner owned too. Are you going to whinge when AJ comes holding his hand out to prop up his airline.....again? BTW, if Joyce asks for government help, I'd support that too. As PS has stated many times - industry wide assistance is needed in these truely unprecedented times.

[stevieboy330]

All the arguments about US bailouts and QF etc are largely irrelevant. Virgin is 91% foreign owned. Why should Australian tax payers bail out a company(s) that are not Australian is the real issue. If and when Virgin does make money, Australian investors see 9% of that. I don’t want to see Aussies loose there jobs but Aussie tax payers who are already doing it tough sending money overseas to prop up Middle Eastearn & Chinese companies is wrong.
Dead wrong.

[No Idea Either]

In the interest of clarity, QF is currently sitting about 41% foreign owned. They divest huge dividends quite regularly. All that moola goes straight overseas. The reason they have huge dividends is because they don’t spend anything on their aircraft. Remember AJ has never ordered an aeroplane for QF and he’s been there for over a decade. Billions in dividends, zero on aircraft orders.

The Govt has already ‘picked a winner.’ That would be REX. Direct cash injections to keep operating to all those National Party seats and all that good Aussie cash going straight to the Singaporean’s anyway. Talk of a new entrant to fill the void shows a complete misunderstanding of the industry and what’s probably required post crisis.

As some have said, let’s take the emotion out of it. VA pilots obviously want to survive. QF pilots don’t want us to collapse but they are indifferent to it realistically. Forget about these two groups. That leaves the for and against groups in the wider community. Business, tourism, ACCC, Labour, some Libs, financiers, most jorno’s all seem to want VA to survive for the economies sake and for the good of Orstraya. Those want to see it go all seem somehow connected now or in the past to the mighty QF and it’s executive management. Bit of a theme there.

All I can do is wait......

[ECAMACTIONSCOMPLETE]

https://www.afr.com/companies/transport/virgin-holds-up-domestic-network-subsidies-20200415-p54jy9

I doubt virgin are winning many friends at the moment. The government want to underwrite domestic services but virgin are holding up the announcement. This announcement could get a few more of us back flying.

[topend3]

In the interest of clarity, QF is currently sitting about 41% foreign owned. They divest huge dividends quite regularly. All that moola goes straight overseas. The reason they have huge dividends is because they don’t spend anything on their aircraft. Remember AJ has never ordered an aeroplane for QF and he’s been there for over a decade. Billions in dividends, zero on aircraft orders.

The Govt has already ‘picked a winner.’ That would be REX. Direct cash injections to keep operating to all those National Party seats and all that good Aussie cash going straight to the Singaporean’s anyway. Talk of a new entrant to fill the void shows a complete misunderstanding of the industry and what’s probably required post crisis.

As some have said, let’s take the emotion out of it. VA pilots obviously want to survive. QF pilots don’t want us to collapse but they are indifferent to it realistically. Forget about these two groups. That leaves the for and against groups in the wider community. Business, tourism, ACCC, Labour, some Libs, financiers, most jorno’s all seem to want VA to survive for the economies sake and for the good of Orstraya. Those want to see it go all seem somehow connected now or in the past to the mighty QF and it’s executive management. Bit of a theme there.

All I can do is wait......

Direct cash injections to Rex? When? #fakenews

[mostlytossas]

For the taxpayer to bail out Virgin would be akin to bailing out McDonalds Corp or Carnival cruises. They are not Australian businesses though do provide Aussie jobs. The "loan" comes with a nice little trap. If not paid back then the taxpayer gets equity in Virgin. That would open up a bottomless pit for the taxpayer for years to come. Forever being asked for more $'s to save their investment. No Thank you.
Look at the end of the day Virgin going belly up would be no different to Holden or any other large company going bust/leaving the country. We will all get over it. Someone else will come along eventually. In the meantime if Qantas has a monopoly and fares go up because of it,don't fly domestic.Take a train,bus or drive. They will soon get the message when loads don't rebound due to the cost.
I feel sorry for the employees just as I do for every other employee laid off ( I have been 3 times in my lifetime ) but life goes on. You are better off it Virgin dies now while there is money to pay out your entitlements than if they die broke.

[MelbourneFlyer]

OK, Melbourne Flyer that's your opinion and I'm not here to change it, but you do realise that you and your kids won't be burdened with this debt? It's a loan or part equity - not a grant as has been given to the regionals (Rex is over 60% foreigner owned). The main owners of VA are all airlines and where are they going to find the money now? Interestingly all (except Bransons' Virgin Atlantic) have been given government assistance (not a loan). Remember QF is 49% foreigner owned too. Are you going to whinge when AJ comes holding his hand out to prop up his airline.....again? BTW, if Joyce asks for government help, I'd support that too. As PS has stated many times - industry wide assistance is needed in these truely unprecedented times.

I take your point about not being burdened with debt BUT, there is no way on earth that Virgin Australia can repay $1.4bn loan in three years, which is what Scurrah has proposed.

This is an airline which has lost money every year for, what, six years? It lost something like $88m in 1H20, and we can wipe out 2H20. Now to repay a $1.4bn loan in three years, Virgin Australia would have to make a profit of $470m per year, allowing a few million extra for 'pocket money'. Do you think that sort of turnaround is even remotely possible? Of course it's not.

Which means the Government ends up with a pretty big stake in Virgin Australia, and suddenly the airline will be driven by political factors not business factors. The local member for Whoop-Whoop has people complaining they don't have flights to SYD, or not enough frequency, or they are too expensive. Well, because the member for Whoop-Whoop holds a marginal seat in the Government, he gets to tell Virgin "Start daily flights between Sydney and Whoop Whoop, oh and keep the fares low, no more than $200, because we have to look after the families and the workers." This sort of stuff will keep going forever, Virgin Australia will be worse off.

And if Virgin Australia gets a bail-out then absolutely Qantas should get one as well. I just don't believe either airline should get a bail-out.

And as someone else here said, think about Holden or other car makers who raked in massive government payments for years, but still shut down and you know what? Life went on.

[The Bullwinkle]

The US government agreed a $25bn bailout for the beleaguered airline industry on Tuesday as the coronavirus pandemic brings travel to a virtual standstill.

Passenger airline companies are receiving direct aid as part of the $2.2tn Coronavirus Aid, Relief, and Economic Security Act (Cares Act) economic relief package passed last month in order to allow them to continue paying salaries and benefits to employees in the coming months.

Details of the aid package are expected later on Tuesday.

With the coronavirus now spread across more than 100 countries and every continent except for Antarctica, air travel has all but ground to a halt.

The International Air Transport Association (Iata) is predicting airlines will lose $314bn in revenue (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/14/coronavirus-outbreak-could-cost-worlds-airlines-up-to-314bn) this year, 25%, almost three times the amount it forecast in a “worst-case scenario” (https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/mar/05/airlines-could-lose-up-to-113bn-on-back-of-coronavirus-says-iata) five weeks ago after reassessing the hit to the global economy it expects.

The grants to major airlines including American, Delta, Southwest, JetBlue and United will probably come with strings attached. According to the Wall Street Journal (https://www.wsj.com/articles/treasury-airlines-reach-agreement-on-aid-11586898079?mod=hp_lead_pos3)the airlines had wanted the loans to be forgiven but the treasury secretary, Steven Mnuchin, told carriers that 30% of the assistance would need to be repaid, and that airlines would have to offer stock warrants – giving the government the right to buy shares in the companies – on a portion of those funds.

There was widespread criticism after the last recession when the US taxpayer bailed out some the US’s largest banks and the auto industry but did not gain from their eventual recovery.

In a statement, Mnuchin said: “We welcome the news that a number of major airlines intend to participate in the payroll support program. This is an important Cares Act program that will support American workers and help preserve the strategic importance of the airline industry while allowing for appropriate compensation to the taxpayers.”

American Airlines will receive $5.8bn as part of the deal and plans to request a loan for a further $4.8bn. “The payroll support program recognizes the extraordinary dedication of our entire team, and importantly, sustains the critical air service being provided by our front-line team members,” Doug Parker, chief executive of American Airlines, said in a statement.


This crisis has nothing to do with Il Deuce and his previous crap management.
This is a worldwide issue that is crippling airlines everywhere and reasonable governments are supporting their airlines.
We all know that the previous CEO at Virgin was useless and Paul Scurrah can't repair a decade of gross incompetence overnight but Paul was on the right path right up to the point where the government imposed travel restrictions.
Bottom line, if COVID-19 hadn't come along, Virgin would be on an upward trajectory.
Get over the past and let's get on with the future!!!

[Paragraph377]

To date there is probably, at a guess, 100,000 Aviation and aviation related people unemployed in Australia. What a shame that the WA fu#kwit GT isn’t out of a job as well. Ironic isn’t it? His real life experience and knowledge of aviation would be less than the cleaner who cleans the taxi rank ****ters at Mascot airport, yet he is still being paid FFS. It’s almost criminal.

[exfocx]

I'll add my 2c worth(less).

Does the gov bail out VA? Yes, but only if it takes an equity share based on the present share price. If the overseas shareholders don't like that then they should stump up the cash. If the gov provides a loan where will it sit in relation to other creditors like the banks. If they're not the ahead of every other creditor then the simple answer is NO. It's likely that VA will fail or if not will require further cash injection, if the bailout is in the form of a loan that will be likely lost money.

Do what the NZ gov did and take an equity share in the company and if VA comes good, then recoup your money by off loading it. Why should the taxpayer take the risk and the shareholders get the benefit at little cost if it works out?

Some of GT's comments (some!!) are seriously pressed to hold any water, same with a lot of other msm comment, mostly emotive argument to gain public support. I watched one ABC (who I like) ******'s take how it wasn't appropriate for the gov to an equity stake as it may not be able to sell it, but should provide it with a loan. Well, if you couldn't sell it, it means it's a dog, why would you back it with taxpayers money? Same can be said with the anti VA take, like "there will be plenty of airlines interested in coming in". Bull****. No one commentating on this in the media seems to be interested in any factual discussion on what may be the best path, just in getting across their vested interest argument.

[normanton]

What a shame that the WA fu#kwit GT isn’t out of a job as well. Ironic isn’t it? His real life experience and knowledge of aviation would be less than the cleaner who cleans the taxi rank ****ters at Mascot airport, yet he is still being paid FFS. It’s almost criminal.
:D :D :D

[Led Zeppelin]

Do what the NZ gov did and take an equity share in the company

People seem to miss the point that ANZ is the only major international carrier in NZ. Of course the NZ government will prop it up - there are far more "national interest" aspects with ANZ than there are with VA.

[Dookie on Drums]

Bottom line, if COVID-19 hadn't come along, Virgin would be on an upward trajectory.

One year at the helm is hardly enough time to consider it an upward trajectory or trend of any sort. A few years (of which he didn't have the opportunity) and then maybe.

[exfocx]

People seem to miss the point that ANZ is the only major international carrier in NZ. Of course the NZ government will prop it up - there are far more "national interest" aspects with ANZ than there are with VA.

Sure, but leave QF as the sole airline (dom) and watch them rape the market.

[No Idea Either]

Direct cash injections to Rex? When? #fakenews

multiple press releases from the Deputy PM Michael McCormack (Nats)

From the Aus Govt Grant Connect site;
COVID 19 Regional Airline Network Support Program - connect regional Australia to freight, medical testing, supplies and essential personnel. Domestic commercial RPT ops May apply.......198 million available.
COVID 19 Regional Airlines Funding Assistance - assist airlines operating services to regional and remote locations to continue to provide air services by providing financial cashflow where required......100 million available.

Then we have the Australian Airline Financial Relief Package - The measures are, waiver of fuel excise, waiver of Airservices chargeS, domestic aviation security charges rebate, offsetting screening costs, providing infrastructure support for screening requirements.........715 million available.

REX, a majority Singapore owned company, already has subsidised routes and now has some of this cash available. I don’t begrudge that. We need viable air services, especially in the bush. Thats where I started, that’s where most of you started. But all this talk of not supporting foreign company’s, ie VA, ****s me. The banks are foreign, the insurance company’s are foreign, the petrol companies are foreign, FFS the big Australian BHP is foreign. An article this morning stats ‘there is no food shortage in Australia! 70% of our food is exported.’ The intent being we just stop exporting it and we’ve got heaps. I went to the Dept Ag site to read it. Looked up the first ( and largest) fresh food producer it listed....guess what....foreign owned. Do you think they are actually going to restrict produce back to the parent company’s country of origin.
Bit of a rant, sorry, just trying to set the record straight. The COVID crisis has turned everything on its head. Think about the country in 1 or 5 years time. Think about the stifled growth. It’s not about VA or QF or REX, it’s about all 25 million of us trying to scratch out a living and try and leave the place a bit better for our kids.

Rant over, #fake fake news

[Dookie on Drums]

multiple press releases from the Deputy PM Michael McCormack (Nats)

From the Aus Govt Grant Connect site;
COVID 19 Regional Airline Network Support Program - connect regional Australia to freight, medical testing, supplies and essential personnel. Domestic commercial RPT ops May apply.......198 million available.
COVID 19 Regional Airlines Funding Assistance - assist airlines operating services to regional and remote locations to continue to provide air services by providing financial cashflow where required......100 million available.

Then we have the Australian Airline Financial Relief Package - The measures are, waiver of fuel excise, waiver of Airservices chargeS, domestic aviation security charges rebate, offsetting screening costs, providing infrastructure support for screening requirements.........715 million available.

REX, a majority Singapore owned company, already has subsidised routes and now has some of this cash available. I don’t begrudge that. We need viable air services, especially in the bush. Thats where I started, that’s where most of you started. But all this talk of not supporting foreign company’s, ie VA, ****s me. The banks are foreign, the insurance company’s are foreign, the petrol companies are foreign, FFS the big Australian BHP is foreign. An article this morning stats ‘there is no food shortage in Australia! 70% of our food is exported.’ The intent being we just stop exporting it and we’ve got heaps. I went to the Dept Ag site to read it. Looked up the first ( and largest) fresh food producer it listed....guess what....foreign owned. Do you think they are actually going to restrict produce back to the parent company’s country of origin.
Bit of a rant, sorry, just trying to set the record straight. The COVID crisis has turned everything on its head. Think about the country in 1 or 5 years time. Think about the stifled growth. It’s not about VA or QF or REX, it’s about all 25 million of us trying to scratch out a living and try and leave the place a bit better for our kids.

Rant over, #fake fake news

As far as I am aware none of those foreign-owned entities you listed above apart from VAH are hitting up the Government for a handout. REX did...ok...you acknowledge it also

[Bedder believeit]

I worked in the aviation industry in PNG, Australia, Dubai and Hong Kong for 45 years, and I loved what I did, both the flying, and ATC and I loved every minute of it, along with the aeroplanes that meant so much to me. When I was a 6 year old kid in New Guinea in the early 50's I still remember Gibbes Sepik Airways JU-52's between Madang and the Highlands or QANTAS DC-3's with side saddle seating, and QF Connies from Moresby to Sydney. Now I sit and read some thoughts on people who might be in aviation, but don't love it. I have nothing to do with aviation now, other than memories, and I know a few VA pilots, and my heart goes out to all the aviation people in Australia, no matter their job function, who are **** scarred of where their future lies. I read thoughts by people on this topic of Gov't assistance to VA (and others) about our country being cast into debt for years to come. Well who gives a ****? Look at any major project in the past that caused squeals of outrage when being mooted, be it be the The Sydney Opera House, F1-11's or any other expensive project. So what. The future in it's own quiet way sorts things out. I hope the aviation industry gets back to where it was, and we can all breathe a collective sigh of relief. Love aviation people.