Seniority

[KRUSTY 34]

In the post Covid-19 environment there will more than likely be a significant reduction in airline pilot numbers. Thousands of aircrew are currently stood down without pay, no doubt pondering where their seat will be when the music stops. Ideally for those pilots lucky enough to have a company to go back to, the redeployment criteria should follow in order of seniority. At least across individual fleets.

In the past I have seen highly experienced, and more senior crew cast aside in the name of the “greater good”. At the same time I witnessed the ugly side of self preservation as one group turned on another.

The rules of the government’s Jobkeeper scheme regarding returning to duty specifies a reasonable test for employees brought back to work against those who are still stood down. The scope of this test isn’t meant to sort out a post lockdown employment structure, but it’s probably a good place to look for the first signs of any irregularities.

In the meantime talk to your Union. In the coming months there is going to be enormous pressure from industry to have greater “flexibility” in the rehiring process.

[wheels_down]

NZ appears to be going down the Seniority path.

Closer to home, Virgin Group, not so much. The Tiger example in Feb pre Corona, of axing fleet specific Pilots (Airbus) vs The List, well it sort of outlines their intentions on this topic going forward.

Whatever works out cheaper for the company is how it will play out.

Cadets/SO are clearly at the bottom of many lists. However, with operators investing millions in these schemes, getting rid of them all makes no financial sense. They will probably be with the company for the next few decades. So if Jetstar and Virgin pull back a large majority of the widebody operation permanently, I don’t think your 3000 hour FO on the A320 or 737 will be affected. Investing millions in retraining 787 Pilots onto the Airbus, compared to just letting them go, and retraining nobody. Sad stuff, but further demonstrates that The List, is only good for Command upgrades.

Experience equals sweet FA.

There is probably going to be large consequences in terms of lack of Pilots from next decade onwards, as many will walk away, many take early retirements, many won’t even contemplate the industry, and the world starts booming again.

[c173]

KRUSTY, your post in itself is showing an ugly side of self preservation. In these 'unprecedented' times, how about as pilots we look at thing a little differently?

Why don't those 55+ year old senior captains give up the 40ft retirement yacht and retire a couple of years early with plenty in property, super etc?

Those at the bottom of the seniority lists are the ones that will suffer the most in this crisis. Most have young families, fresh mortgages and started flying at a young age with little/no other skills.

I'm sure, for example, of the roughly 400 pilots at the bottom of the QF list (no, not all cadets), most of them left high seniority positions at domestic/regional carriers, some within the group...no one could have predicted this when they made the move to the 'safest job' in Australia. Their old positions have already been filled and there is not likely to be any work in aviation in the next 3-5 years.

Maybe it's time for the top of the list to make some sacrifices for the bottom, instead of topping up their 7 figure defined benefit super.

I'm a firm beliver that seniority is the best/worst system, but we're all on the same team, let's not throw the bottom half under the bus.

[normanton]

Maybe it's time for the top of the list to make some sacrifices for the bottom, instead of topping up their 7 figure defined benefit super.
You mean those on the gravy train should make a sacrifice for the junior pilots? Don't make me laugh!

They will argue they sacrificed enough in the EBA 10 vote. :hmm:

[langham]

Many of us near the twilight of our careers are not on defined benefit, we are looking at substantial losses in our super accounts right now coupled with an almost certain loss of at least one year of income. We don’t have the time left to recoup whereas the younger, more junior have many years ahead of them to build their retirement nest egg. And no, I don’t have a 40 foot boat, no boat at all in fact.

[slice]

As far as the Virgin Wide Body EBA is concerned it explicitly states that NO Narrowbody Pilot shall be displaced due to a reduction in the Widebody fleet. However if Virgin keep a Widebody fleet (assuming they survive keeping one of them, if any) then it states Pilots shall be made redundant in order of seniority regardless of fleet. That could be a source of conflict:\. This of course assumes Virgin continues in some form:confused:

[dr dre]

Maybe it's time for the top of the list to make some sacrifices for the bottom, instead of topping up their 7 figure defined benefit super.


The truth is seniority and last in first out worked in government run carriers with simplified fleet structures. In the harsh world of modern economics (accentuated by post Corona airline economics) it's unfeasible.
In most airlines I'd imagine the most senior pilots will gravitate toward widebody long haul aircraft. However in a post Corona world these aircraft will probably be needed the least. So if LIFO is to be followed you are then faced with a situation of retraining the most senior pilots onto the smaller fleets, and making the most junior pilots redundant. It'd be a huge expense and one that cash poor post covid airlines could hardly afford. There is already some legal precedence for redundancy outside of seniority. Most likely however pilots of fleets who aren't flying will just be stood down indefinitely. No expensive redundancy payout for the airlines, and then those pilots simply return to flying when there's work available or retire.

[ECAMACTIONSCOMPLETE]

I'm sure, for example, of the roughly 400 pilots at the bottom of the QF list (no, not all cadets), most of them left high seniority positions at domestic/regional carriers, some within the group...no one could have predicted this when they made the move to the 'safest job' in Australia. Their old positions have already been filled and there is not likely to be any work in aviation in the next 3-5 years.

I have to disagree with you on this point. There are inherent risks with leaving a senior position in one airline to go to the bottom of another seniority list. It was part of the decision making that lead me to stay put, as nice as the QF conditions may have been.

Coronavirus itself was unforseen, however downturns in the industry given its cyclical nature certainly are not.

[cloudsurfng]

Another factor to consider is mandatory retirement. Can’t speak for VA or JQ, but at QF, the number of pilots reaching 65 increases dramatically in a year or so, and remains between 75-100 per year for the next decade.

some LHers hitting 65 this year or next may have planned on bidding to the 737 this training year. Unfortunately for them, there is no ‘right’ just because you are 65. No vacancy, no slot. You have to retire as you can ‘no longer fulfil the requirements of the role. No CR payout.

this will affect quite a number I’m sure.

anyone who thinks redundancy (fingers crossed not needed anywhere!) will be done on last in first out is kidding themselves.

[Lapon]

Remeber not all seniority systems are the same.

Some have protections against displacing other pilots, and some dont.

As much as I am affected by pilots who wont budge from the top, I have no grievance against them. Who knows, I may be in thier position one day and my own circumstances may also mean staying on for whatever reason.

This topic has been running in the Terms and Endearment board.

[Con Catenator]

A very relevant scenario is Jetstar 787 pilots, most of whom will be in the top half of the seniority list, and many I would imagine towards the top of the list.

How does that work if the 787 is grounded or significantly clipped ? - I can't imagine a low cost operator looking forward to spending millions on re-training 787 pilots back on to the A320. Do they retrench redundant 787 pilots or from the bottom of the list?

[Jabberwocky82]

Everyone will eventually do, whatever is best for themselves. You can see that amongst the numerous threads all on the same repetitive topics that have been posted on here in recent weeks.

[RENURPP]

KRUSTY, your post in itself is showing an ugly side of self preservation. In these 'unprecedented' times, how about as pilots we look at thing a little differently?

Why don't those 55+ year old senior captains give up the 40ft retirement yacht and retire a couple of years early with plenty in property, super etc?

Those at the bottom of the seniority lists are the ones that will suffer the most in this crisis. Most have young families, fresh mortgages and started flying at a young age with little/no other skills.

I'm sure, for example, of the roughly 400 pilots at the bottom of the QF list (no, not all cadets), most of them left high seniority positions at domestic/regional carriers, some within the group...no one could have predicted this when they made the move to the 'safest job' in Australia. Their old positions have already been filled and there is not likely to be any work in aviation in the next 3-5 years.

Maybe it's time for the top of the list to make some sacrifices for the bottom, instead of topping up their 7 figure defined benefit super.

I'm a firm beliver that seniority is the best/worst system, but we're all on the same team, let's not throw the bottom half under the bus.

A very one eyed view of the situation. I read into that, you are low on the seniority list.
not all 55 plus have 40 foot retirement yatchs, not only young people have young kids and mortgages.
One thing the younger do have is plenty of time (working life) to make up for the short fall they may feel now.

[normanton]

Most likely however pilots of fleets who aren't flying will just be stood down indefinitely.
You have hit the nail on the head on this one.

The chief pilot has said in a webinar that they will follow the RIN process "at an appropriate time". What that means is that you will stay stood down for as long as we need until training positions become available.

This was followed up by HR confirming that there is no time limit on how long they can stand you down for.

The company wont be following the RIN/redundancy process anytime soon because that will burn a lot of cash. And right now, cash is king.

[Capt Fathom]

Funny how people bag seniority systems, until the time comes for them to make use of it.
It’s all well and good saying the ‘oldies’ have had it good and should step aside for the young ones.
Will you think the same way in 20 years time when it’s your turn to step aside.
I think some of the more senior people will use this opportunity to leave, as so much has changed and will change.

[c173]

A very one eyed view of the situation. I read into that, you are low on the seniority list.
not all 55 plus have 40 foot retirement yatchs, not only young people have young kids and mortgages.
One thing the younger do have is plenty of time (working life) to make up for the short fall they may feel now.

Absolutely I am, not here to hide it. My solution is not for everyone at the top, but there is a significant slice of the pie that can afford it.

[ElZilcho]

A very one eyed view of the situation. I read into that, you are low on the seniority list.
not all 55 plus have 40 foot retirement yatchs, not only young people have young kids and mortgages.
One thing the younger do have is plenty of time (working life) to make up for the short fall they may feel now.

I'm neither young nor old. But I've heard that bolded statement thrown around a lot in the last few weeks, and it just doesn't sit right with me.
Some of the Younger Pilots (or more correctly, Junior Seniority) are looking at losing their entire Careers here. There is no making up for that in most cases and many are looking at having to sell their homes during a Recession.

For example, losing the last year of your career is a lot less impactful than losing your entire career in your mid-late 30's. Retraining and climbing the ladder in another industry while feeding your kids and paying a mortgage is no simple task.

I'm not going to claim to know how super works in OZ, but in NZ you aren't forced to withdraw it all the day you turn 65. You can wait for the Markets to recover. If a Pilot needs to withdraw their entire super the day they turn 65 then I'm afraid to say, COVID is the least of your problems.

My Parents as an example, put a portion of their Retirement savings into "Cash" 2 years prior to retiring when the Market were up. My Fathers reasoning was to ensure they were less vulnerable to a market crash. I don't believe they touched their actual super until around age 70.
Given most Pilots are "reasonably intelligent" I would assume many approaching Retirement have done some forward financial planning and diversified their profiles to reduce the risk of crashing markets at Retirement.

That's not to say Life hasn't happened to some of you along the way. Seniority doesn't always equate financial security so no one should be told to bugger off just because of their age. Likewise, there are also some very wealthy and secure Junior Pilots.
But the notion that a "younger" Pilot losing their Job has a better chance of revery than a Senior one is, in most cases, false. And lets not get started on the cost of housing for various generations on the Seniority lists.

[Ragnor]

JQ will not be able to off load the 787 for a very long time anyway, there is no indication they want to off load all of them also. The 787 crews will be stood down for as long as it takes unfortunately, just like QF and VA international crews. I also can not see JQ training those guys back to the 320 finances available post COVID-19 will not be there. JQ will fire back up by base not seniority as this will be the cheapest for the business. I can’t find anything in the EBA to indicate flying is dished out by your number on the list, if you’re in ML or SY your return will be quicker bases like PH, NTL and AVV will almost be last to get going. I personally think a base restructure will occur NTL and maybe PH will be lucky to be around, we already can crew PH from SY or ML we have been doing it for 2 yrs already.

[SandyPalms]

You mean those on the gravy train should make a sacrifice for the junior pilots? Don't make me laugh!

They will argue they sacrificed enough in the EBA 10 vote. :hmm:

why should they? they didn’t create coved 19. Just sayin’

[normanton]

why should they? they didn’t create coved 19. Just sayin’
I'm not "sayin" they should. What I am "sayin" is that there is a better chance of the gravy train drivers retiring early than there is a Trump press conference passing the Trump fact checker.

[Paragraph377]

You mean those on the gravy train should make a sacrifice for the junior pilots? Don't make me laugh
Why do younger pilots hold such a grudge against the old boys?. I know with ANZ there are some Lefties there with 40 years under their belt with the same airline. That’s a long and dedicated service. Why should they get the arse, first, when they have spent decades servicing the community and their airline, loyally?

[Paragraph377]

You are making it sound like working for the same airline for 40 years is an arduous and insurmountable task. Servicing the community and airline loyally? Hilarious!
Yes I was a bit cheeky with my wording. My career spanned 40 years with ANZ and it was a wonderful experience except for what the Governement and Airline did in regards to Erebus. Nothing arduous in doing what you love for 40 odd years and getting paid for it. The world changed after 9/11 and it has changed again due to COVID. Aviation will never be the same, and that’s really sad.

[Mach E Avelli]

Tough times call for tough methods. Every benevolent dictator understands that.
Few airlines in the current climate can afford strict implementation of last-in first-out and all the attendant re-training that would be involved with a major fleet reduction. A management acceding to that demand will only accelerate bankruptcy.
The compromise, for pilots at least, is job share. If operations are cut by two thirds, put everyone on a two day week for one third salary. That is actually a slight increase in productivity in that it is the equivalent to each full time pilot flying a six day week. This slight productivity increase is is roughly offset by the cost of keeping excess pilots in simulator check etc. To further offset the inefficiencies of keeping excess pilots in check (but only if not covered by productivity gains) annual leave would not accrue while job sharing.
Pilots at the top of the seniority list would not feel as much pain as those at the bottom - in fact most senior captains should survive on a third salary anyway. It may mean taking the kids out of private school and trading the his & hers matching Beemers for a Corolla. But hey, a car is a car and ordinary public schools are adequate for learning basic basket weaving (which is all our education system is fit for anyway).
Such a scheme would be far more tough on those at the bottom, but at least they would retain a part time job with 5 days a week available to stack those supermarket shelves - which is their cross to bear. If they do have an expensive car on the never-never, let the financier repossess it. A pushbike will provide all the exercise they once paid for at the gym.
How to deal with those not prepared to job share? Sack the mean spirited, selfish bastards.
Upside to this dastardly scheme is nearly all pilots could maintain proficiency for when some recovery occurs. Those who get too far out of recency will find it very difficult to get back in the game.
If all this sounds like I am not sympathetic, not so. Merely pointing out the way I would do it if I was that benevolent dictator. Be thankful I am not!

[RENURPP]

Absolutely I am, not here to hide it. My solution is not for everyone at the top, but there is a significant slice of the pie that can afford it.
it really is!
there are plenty of spoilt rich kids, with mummy’s and daddy’s that can and would support them through the years, so how about you take aim at all the people on here that have done ok in life for one reason or another, not just the older, more experienced

[machtuk]

I feel for all the pilots and associated staff that have lost their jobs, must be awful -(
When normality returns one day and flying ramps up the jobs will be there but they won't be there for everyone -(
stay focused guys/gals -:)

[dr dre]

How to deal with those not prepared to job share? Sack the mean spirited, selfish bastards.
Upside to this dastardly scheme is nearly all pilots could maintain proficiency for when some recovery occurs. Those who get too far out of recency will find it very difficult to get back in the game.
If all this sounds like I am not sympathetic, not so. Merely pointing out the way I would do it if I was that benevolent dictator. Be thankful I am not!

No that's quite sympathetic. I believe when a small amount of flying returns to a fleet if it needs to be a 50% or even 30% job share then so be it. It's better for everyone and the pilots group as a whole for all pilots to be maintain recency and a portion of their salary rather than 50% on full salary and 50% on nothing. If that was the case it'd be a brave person to admit they don't wish to job share....

[George Glass]

I feel for all the pilots and associated staff that have lost their jobs, must be awful -(
When normality returns one day and flying ramps up the jobs will be there but they won't be there for everyone -(
stay focused guys/gals -:)

And what exactly does this contribute Machtuk?
If you are not affected butt out.
This is way too serious for pretenders to try and find some vicarious pleasure in it.

[dontgive2FACs]

If that was the case it'd be a brave person to admit they don't wish to job share....

I suppose that’s going to be tricky. Many competing interests. Same as taking Industrial actions I suppose.

Will self-preserving behaviours of humans have changed after this?

[deja vu]

As said above. It only is relevant for Command upgrades.
During redundancy the company will do what it wants, as is testament to the way Tiger handled its redundancy for the A320 based on fleet well before the corona virus was relative.
There are many of my colleagues who swore black and blue that seniority is the only way the industry should be and are now lamenting the fact that they can’t get a direct entry command.
You can’t have your cake and.....
Seniority is archaic!
Oh dear, "Seniority is archaic".......... except when you've got it. I suspect this poster believes that sycophancy is the way to go.

[WillieTheWimp]

Oh dear... “except when you’ve got it”...until you don’t. The alternative to seniority is not necessarily polishing the apple. Don’t be such a drama queen.

[VinRouge]

In the post Covid-19 environment there will more than likely be a significant reduction in airline pilot numbers. Thousands of aircrew are currently stood down without pay, no doubt pondering where their seat will be when the music stops. Ideally for those pilots lucky enough to have a company to go back to, the redeployment criteria should follow in order of seniority. At least across individual fleets.

In the past I have seen highly experienced, and more senior crew cast aside in the name of the “greater good”. At the same time I witnessed the ugly side of self preservation as one group turned on another.

The rules of the government’s Jobkeeper scheme regarding returning to duty specifies a reasonable test for employees brought back to work against those who are still stood down. The scope of this test isn’t meant to sort out a post lockdown employment structure, but it’s probably a good place to look for the first signs of any irregularities.

In the meantime talk to your Union. In the coming months there is going to be enormous pressure from industry to have greater “flexibility” in the rehiring process.

got no issue with accelerated command. But new hires can forget jumping the staff travel priority list, need to do their time to F class entitlement and shouldn’t expect acceleration on route scheduling priorities/scheduling systems.

[non_state_actor]

The reality is that anyone 55+ outside of QF is not looking at huge a super balance. There are plenty of people who got wiped out at Ansett in their prime earning years only to be possibly done again in their 50's. I think a call for the over 55's to arbitrarily retire is probably a bit disingenuous given what they have been through in their career. I wouldn't have an issue with any of those folks if they wanted to hang on til 65+.
But sure if you have been in QF since you were 25 have lived through the biggest expansion period the airline has ever experienced and your biggest decision is whether to go a Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 490 over a the Beneteau Oceanis then I would agree it's time to move on.

[deja vu]

Oh dear... “except when you’ve got it”...until you don’t. The alternative to seniority is not necessarily polishing the apple. Don’t be such a drama queen.
ok, what is the alternative, ? Please explain the apple thing.

[KRUSTY 34]

ok, what is the alternative, ? Please explain the apple thing.

A slightly more colloquial description of a Sycophant.

Brown noser, Crawler, Teacher’s Pet.

Apple polisher!

[Gizm0]

That is really rather cynical. I do not think that there are many "old boy captains" who would rub noses in the dirt like that - most of us (in those days) were gentlemen & generous in our encouragement of the youngsters. I am very conscious that I was extremely fortunate timing-wise but I also know many others who were not. Such is life - or luck!

[Renton Field]

Seniority is a bit like democracy: not perfect,but WAY ahead of whatever system is next.

[mmmbop]

'One day you'll be senior son." The greatest lie propagated by senior folk who - extraordinarily - actually believed the lie coming from their mouths.

Allegedly a number of senior folk were very quickly onto the Union demanding to immediately exercise their right to displace folks junior to them onto a jet (i.e. the one that will return to International flying first) that over the last last 30+years they would classify in a derogatory manner as "just a light twin." A pity they don't understand the Award.

Also a pity that during their 40 year career, probably 30 as a Captain, they didn't have the financial smarts to put themselves into a position to retire by their 60s. Considering that during that time the retirement age changed multiple times in their favour and gave them years of extra earnings.

And yet, when holding court with a literally captive audience, they will continually use the phrase 'snouts in the trough' when referring to Management.

[normanton]

'one day you'll be senior son." the greatest lie propagated by senior folk who - extraordinarily - actually believed the lie coming from their mouths.

Allegedly a number of senior folk were very quickly onto the union demanding to immediately exercise their right to displace folks junior to them onto a jet (i.e. The one that will return to international flying first) that over the last last 30+years they would classify in a derogatory manner as "just a light twin." a pity they don't understand the award.

Also a pity that during their 40 year career, probably 30 as a captain, they didn't have the financial smarts to put themselves into a position to retire by their 60s. Considering that during that time the retirement age changed multiple times in their favour and gave them years of extra earnings.

And yet, when holding court with a literally captive audience, they will continually use the phrase 'snouts in the trough' when referring to management.
:D :D :D

[SandyPalms]

But again, I ask, why should they? I’m by no means senior, and would benefit massively if many of the pilots you describe retire. But why is it that whenever there is a crisis, we immediately attack the senior blokes? It’s not their fault. Why should they be the ones to sacrifice something? I believe in this country we call it “the tall poppy syndrome”, and quite simply jealousy is a curse. Get over it. If the old guys want to retire, good on them, but stop trying to make them the bad guys. It’s not their fault.

[Green.Dot]

To the Captains in the 60 plus band who would have otherwise retired because their 5 million is super is only worth 3 million now, please still retire! You will still live comfortably. You don’t need to drive a Merc anymore- trade it in for the Hyundai, they make good cars.

You have had a good run (actually a great run over the last 30 plus years), let the guys and girls with mortgages and young kids have their turn. (Assuming there are any scraps left at the end of this).

Thanks

[Lapon]

let the guys and girls with mortgages and young kids have their turn

Career progression is not about letting someone 'have thier turn'.
I'm at best halfway through my career and wouldnt expect anyone at the top to step down out of kindness.
If anyone 'wants thier turn' there are (where) plenty of opportunities overseas. If you want to float in the slow moving pool of progression in Australia then live with the consequences, or dont have kids/mortgage. I have, and it's fine by me.

[dragon man]

$5 million super you can’t be talking about Qantas pilots then.

[Des Dimona]

Green.Dot - Many older pilots do not have the stunning amounts of super that you fantasize about. They have just as much right to continue working as younger pilots. :ugh:

[dragon man]

Green.Dot - Many older pilots do not have the stunning amounts of super that you fantasize about. They have just as much right to continue working as younger pilots. :ugh:

I would be surprised if there was any pilot in Qantas with that amount of super.

[machtuk]

Super would have been divided up a few times with a few ex wives over the years! Super value these days is dropping faster than a 'Max' -) Don't forget guys all this 'free money' the corrupt Govt are handing out now means HIGHER cost of living for all of us especially those that are about to retire!

[dragon man]

Super would have been divided up a few times with a few ex wives over the years! Super value these days is dropping faster than a 'Max' -) Don't forget guys all this 'free money' the corrupt Govt are handing out now means HIGHER cost of living for all of us especially those that are about to retire!

Still along way off the mark, keep trying.

[normanton]

I would be surprised if there was any pilot in Qantas with that amount of super.
Are you calling the 380 captain who was boasting over dinner in LAX about his super only a few months ago a liar?

Something about still having to pay off his second wife or something. Can't really remember. There was just so much verbal diarrhea.

[normanton]

I’m looking forward to you and mmmmbop starting a thread on Qrewroom asking the senior blokes to retire? No? Thought so.
Sure, just as soon as those senior folks start a thread demanding a job on the "light twin" because of their "seniority".

[Paragraph377]

To the Captains in the 60 plus band who would have otherwise retired because their 5 million is super is only worth 3 million now, please still retire! You will still live comfortably. You don’t need to drive a Merc anymore- trade it in for the Hyundai, they make good cars. You have had a good run (actually a great run over the last 30 plus years), let the guys and girls with mortgages and young kids have their turn. (Assuming there are any scraps left at the end of this).
Thanks
I can’t believe that this ****e is for real? Has to be one of Alan’s poodles trolling to create a division amongst the Drivers, surely. Mate, seriously, $5m in Super?? Could be one or two worth that, but not many, and if so it’s only because they’ve been smart with their money and haven’t pissed it away on bad investments or on the type of **** that Gen Y (or whatever they are today) indulge in. Typical Generation who don’t want to start or stay on the bottom rung, but want to start on the top rung. Those older Pilots you talk about also spent a good decade in the RHS mate before becoming a Captain. Settle down and wait your turn, that’s the way it has always been. If the tables were turned would you agree to being pushed out the door so some younger ungrateful selfish f#ck could pay off his overinflated mortgage and matching SS Commodores and matching Jetski’s blah blah blah. I hope the ollder Pilots stay sonthat the likes of you have to move to Russia or Africa to gain their prized coveted command!!!

[krismiler]

Perhaps that waterfront retirement in Sydney or the on Gold Coast will end up being taken in an Asian country instead ? $$$ go a lot further in Thailand, Malaysia or the Philippines.

[cloudsurfng]

There are a few who should eff off. Not because they are old, but because they are absolute bell ends. Should have gone 20 years ago. Mostly though, the old blokes in SH are pretty freakin awesome to fly with.

[maggot]

I can’t believe that this ****e is for real? Has to be one of Alan’s poodles trolling to create a division amongst the Drivers, surely. Mate, seriously, $5m in Super?? Could be one or two worth that, but not many, and if so it’s only because they’ve been smart with their money and haven’t pissed it away on bad investments or on the type of **** that Gen Y (or whatever they are today) indulge in. Typical Generation who don’t want to start or stay on the bottom rung, but want to start on the top rung. Those older Pilots you talk about also spent a good decade in the RHS mate before becoming a Captain. Settle down and wait your turn, that’s the way it has always been. If the tables were turned would you agree to being pushed out the door so some younger ungrateful selfish f#ck could pay off his overinflated mortgage and matching SS Commodores and matching Jetski’s blah blah blah. I hope the ollder Pilots stay sonthat the likes of you have to move to Russia or Africa to gain their prized coveted command!!!
A whole decade in the RHS?


More entitled boomer snowflake BS

[normanton]

There is nobody on here saying that except for a rumour from someone who is asking them to retire. Gee I hope I don’t share a flight deck with such an entitled pilot. The same pilot that asked all the senior pilots to secure flying for them, which they then did, only to have a knife in their backs as soon as things got difficult.

In life, people show their true colours when life gets difficult. Your thirst for fellow pilots blood is noted.
Oh please. Get real. It's only a minority. I recommend you get onto some webinars and listen to the questions indirectly being asked. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see what they are actually asking.

[SandyPalms]

Who gives a s#$t how much super they have. I hear some S/O’s gloating about how much money they make. Being a W-Anchor is not exclusive trait of senior pilots. Again, Why should they retire just because the junior people want them to? Get over yourselves. No matter what you may think of yourselves, you are not that important to anybody else. FFS.

[innuendo]

Given that there are no reliable forecasts, (at least none that I am willing to rely on yet), as to where inflation will be going in the future, I would think that early retirement would be quite a gamble.

[Blueskymine]

This is almost as funny as 20 somethings crying about having a turn in the backseat of the dugong.

‘It’s not fair that the senior guys hang around and we won’t get a turn before it goes’.

If the old fellas want to stick around. All the power to them. It sucks for us, but if you listen to them, you might learn a thing or two for when your turn comes.

Anyway keep up the good work. This thread is giving sweet relief to the boredom.

[WINJA]

Why don't those 55+ year old senior captains give up the 40ft retirement yacht and retire a couple of years early with plenty in property, super etc?

Those at the bottom of the seniority lists are the ones that will suffer the most in this crisis. Most have young families, fresh mortgages and started flying at a young age with little/no other skills .


​​​There is always two sides to this. Those 55 year+ Captains have only got a couple of years left and are unlikely to get hired anywhere else, and the new guys have got another 30 years in them and are way more hireable.

Seniority is a double edged sword. Without it, cronyism and nepotism creep in, with it everyone gets a crack at the top jobs, even the ones who struggle with their checks.

[Lapon]

Me thinks the vocal minority who whinge about people above them not moving on will be the very ones who themselves dont move on when their time comes to otherwise step aside :rolleyes:

[dr dre]

I think a lot will be persuaded to retire by circumstance. A lot of pilots on 4 engined fleets are looking at a lot longer than 6 months off work. For many it'll be closer to when replacement aircraft arrive, which could be until 2023 when the A350 arrives.

So if you're late 50's/early 60's, you're going to be looking at several years without flying before having to complete a full type rating and return to work for just a few years back in the F/Deck anyway. Will the time off spent on the farm/at the holiday house up the coast/doing the lap of honour in the caravan etc maybe convince them that red eyes/jet lag/sims is something for the younger crowd and to hang up the hat for good?

[ElZilcho]

I can’t believe that this ****e is for real? Has to be one of Alan’s poodles trolling to create a division amongst the Drivers, surely. Mate, seriously, $5m in Super?? Could be one or two worth that, but not many, and if so it’s only because they’ve been smart with their money and haven’t pissed it away on bad investments or on the type of **** that Gen Y (or whatever they are today) indulge in. Typical Generation who don’t want to start or stay on the bottom rung, but want to start on the top rung. Those older Pilots you talk about also spent a good decade in the RHS mate before becoming a Captain. Settle down and wait your turn, that’s the way it has always been. If the tables were turned would you agree to being pushed out the door so some younger ungrateful selfish f#ck could pay off his overinflated mortgage and matching SS Commodores and matching Jetski’s blah blah blah. I hope the ollder Pilots stay sonthat the likes of you have to move to Russia or Africa to gain their prized coveted command!!!

There are selfish entitled w***ers on both ends of the Seniority list, slinging mud at each other like a bunch of catty teenagers on social media. Honestly, it's pathetic to watch but we need to remember, they're the minority.
Not every Junior Pilot has thrown all the toys onto their mortgage in the same manner that not every senior pilot has ridden the gravy train for 30+ years and is sitting on Millions of Super with their first wife.
If/When COVID is behind us, dare I say a few guys will be buying their own Beers for a while... if they were brave enough to put their names behind all the vitriol they've been hurling.

[normanton]

Thanks for the lecture angryrat, but I haven't been fueling any insecurities at all.

I do believe the RIN process should be followed. Even the chief pilot thinks that. He was asked this exact question in a webinar, and he replied "we will follow the RIN process at an appropriate time".

Furthermore, HR have confirmed on the webinars that the stand down has no time limit.

Many people, including your senior colleagues can see exactly whats at play here, and how the company is maneuvering around it. The company is following the EBA as it stands - they are just using a provision that many senior pilots aren't happy with. It's our senior colleagues who have clearly been trying to wiggle their way around the EBA by using their "seniority" to move to the "light twin" when in fact, they can't do that under the EBA provisions in play here. So forgive me, as a junior pilot in the company for standing up for myself, and countless others who all have a career at play here.

And I don't buy your argument that all senior pilots voted YES to secure the 350 flying for the younger generation. It was going to be a much closer YES vote, until the unfortunate dose of reality hit many of our senior colleagues about just how important it suddenly was to secure the flying. I can only imagine how many of them are now thinking "thank christ we secured that 350 jet".

And yes, I am very pissed off at the company for screwing around senior pilots on long term sick leave. It's appalling.

[itsnotthatbloodyhard]

It's our senior colleagues who have clearly been trying to wiggle their way around the EBA by using their "seniority" to move to the "light twin"

’Clearly’? You must have some evidence or knowledge beyond what most of us have, to state this with such confidence. All I’ve heard of it was the ‘allegedly’ in post #39. I’m sure we’d all be very interested to read the details, if you’d care to share them with us.

[kangaroota]

One thing I've learn't from a long career in aviation is how quickly pilot's will turn on each other when the going gets tough.
I have witnessed first hand the hostility at an overseas location when 2002 Ansett refugees met 1989 #hitfight refugees.
Not pretty.

[Vorsicht]

I gotta say, you Qantas cllowns really do live up to your reputation!

well played lads.

[George Glass]

My lasting memory of the debacle in 1989 was that it was a great revealer of character.
Think before you hit that send button.
Some things cant be undone.

[mattyj]

Holy crap have you guys not seen the wreckage at the top of the seniority lists? The multiple marriages, multiple children, multiple surgeries for back, knee or tumors who have spent years spending shed loads of money trying to get their medical back? The half conscious jet lagged nights of cheap wine on the other side of the world with all the other temptations..I reckon every other long haul captain I’ve flown with has very good reason to hang on as long as possible

[Paragraph377]

Holy crap have you guys not seen the wreckage at the top of the seniority lists? The multiple marriages, multiple children, multiple surgeries for back, knee or tumors who have spent years spending shed loads of money trying to get their medical back? The half conscious jet lagged nights of cheap wine on the other side of the world with all the other temptations..I reckon every other long haul captain I’ve flown with has very good reason to hang on as long as possible
Indeed!! Great memories. Wouldn’t change it if I could! May I please add industrial deafness to the list. Years and years of walking around APU’s and sitting in older aircraft type flight decks doesn’t do your hearing much good.

[Kelly Slater]

For many people, men in particular, their work is their life. For some, time away from family makes the time with family that much better, for others, they just need to be away. At work, they have a captive audience and are surrounded by people who share their interests and understand their lives. This applies to all industries, not just pilots. As women become more career oriented due either to desire or opportunity, they, too, will fall into the category of those afraid or unwilling to let go.
People used to retire at 65 and be dead at 66. If you made it to 70 you were doing well; to make it to 80 was extraordinary. With the current epidemic targeting the elderly, this will again become the norm.
If you want someone to step down so that you get the chance to step up then deriding them is the wrong way to go about it. When you ride with an old timer, tell him stories of what you will do when you retire, how you will travel the world at your own leisure, sleeping at night and not chasing sleep all day. Put dreams in his head about sailing adventures and Tiger Moths but don't suggest cruising. Paint the picture for them if they cannot see past a life of work for themselves. Be subtle, not aggressive, friendly, not nasty, mature, not a 2 year old.
Of cause, you probably aren't riding with anyone at the moment and can't even put dreams about at the pub but when you go back to work in whatever capacity, be smart about upsetting the people on top of the pile or they may just stay there a little longer just to keep you in your place. Who could blame them.

[Paragraph377]

For many people, men in particular, their work is their life. For some, time away from family makes the time with family that much better, for others, they just need to be away. At work, they have a captive audience and are surrounded by people who share their interests and understand their lives. This applies to all industries, not just pilots. As women become more career oriented due either to desire or opportunity, they, too, will fall into the category of those afraid or unwilling to let go.
People used to retire at 65 and be dead at 66. If you made it to 70 you were doing well; to make it to 80 was extraordinary. With the current epidemic targeting the elderly, this will again become the norm.
If you want someone to step down so that you get the chance to step up then deriding them is the wrong way to go about it. When you ride with an old timer, tell him stories of what you will do when you retire, how you will travel the world at your own leisure, sleeping at night and not chasing sleep all day. Put dreams in his head about sailing adventures and Tiger Moths but don't suggest cruising. Paint the picture for them if they cannot see past a life of work for themselves. Be subtle, not aggressive, friendly, not nasty, mature, not a 2 year old.
Of cause, you probably aren't riding with anyone at the moment and can't even put dreams about at the pub but when you go back to work in whatever capacity, be smart about upsetting the people on top of the pile or they may just stay there a little longer just to keep you in your place. Who could blame them.
All true. The problem though runs deeper than dreams of retirement and having financial stabilty. The problem is that flying is addictive. It gets into your blood. It becomes a chemical that you simply have to have. Best memories for me, apart from the birth of my children and grandchildren will be of flying through a crystal clear sunset near Mt Fuji, or seeing the lights of Vegas in the distance from 150 miles out with a perfectly clear Nevada night sky, or taking off from Daniel.K at daybreak in summer with the the ocean on one side, Ko’olau mountains with a light padding of rain clouds hovering above them on the other side, all topped off by a pink/orange skyline. Maybe I’m old school, but the buggered back and knees, still sleepless nights and skin cancers due to exposure to high level UV rays were worth every minute of flying. Floating 600,000 pounds of metal onto a runway just like a feather can’t be replaced by retirement.

[Mach E Avelli]

Excellent insight, Kelly!
The problem for many older pilots is not only multiple ex-wives to support and a big decline in their superannuation. It is that so many think that they are incapable of doing anything other than flying and a few have such big egos that they can not live without the imagined adulation.
If they never developed interests outside their job, now is the time to re-evaluate priorities. Calculate the likely number of years of good health and physical fitness remaining. 5? 10? 15? but probably not 20. Developing an interest will go a long way to improving both mental and physical well-being.
I have been retired from flying for five years now, but until recently still involved in aviation. I chose to get completely out of the game a month before this crisis hit and like so many have seen my superannuation take a flogging.
But with other interests keeping me busy enough I can honestly say I do not miss aviation and will just have to scale back some bucket list items to fit a more modest budget.

Re sailing: if someone is approaching 65 and has never sailed they may have left it too late for that particular activity. Especially if that hip replacement was not a good job! Besides which it is an expensive hobby unless you build or buy a small boat. But learning to sail a dinghy would be a great idea for someone still reasonably fit.
There are other pursuits - restore an old motor bike, build a new shed, ruin a good walk with golf, grow grapes, distill your own whisky, learn a language (Swahili comes easy when you drink good home brew)... the possibilities are endless.
What any pilot approaching the age of 65 must now face is the probability that their flying days are over. Go gracefully. Don't bore your friends with tales of your past exploits - no one except you really gives a sh!t.

[Keg]

Crikey, this thread is a great example of why I don’t bother with PPRUNE so much these days.

[IsDon01]

Crikey, this thread is a great example of why I don’t bother with PPRUNE so much these days.

Agreed Keg.

C’mon guys you’re behaving like entitled prats while our Virgin colleagues are looking down the barrel of an airline collapse with the consequent uncertainty over their careers.

Some of us were even involved in the Ansett debacle prior to joining QANTAS. Remember what that felt like then have some compassion for those doing it a lot tougher than we are.

Whatever happens will be clearer once this health crisis is over. Worry about it then. Discuss it then. If you must have a bleat then do it on Qrewroom where everyone knows who you are and others in our industry less fortunate than us in the present circumstances don’t have to watch you squabbling like a bunch of bogans fighting over a toilet roll.

Mods, could you shut this nonsense down please?

[Renton Field]

IsDon & Keg...well played sirs.

[normanton]

............ finally getting hired at a major after 30 years of humping the line.


Listen here cupcake. Perhaps if you humped someone higher up the food chain, you would have accelerated your career.

[josephfeatherweight]

IsDon & Keg...well played sirs.
Seconded...

[morno]

Fark me, I don’t need to stir you Qantas mob up at all, you do it to yourselves!

I'm going to make some popcorn, this is getting good

[ifylofd]

KRUSTY, your post in itself is showing an ugly side of self preservation. In these 'unprecedented' times, how about as pilots we look at thing a little differently?

Why don't those 55+ year old senior captains give up the 40ft retirement yacht and retire a couple of years early with plenty in property, super etc?

Those at the bottom of the seniority lists are the ones that will suffer the most in this crisis. Most have young families, fresh mortgages and started flying at a young age with little/no other skills.

I'm sure, for example, of the roughly 400 pilots at the bottom of the QF list (no, not all cadets), most of them left high seniority positions at domestic/regional carriers, some within the group...no one could have predicted this when they made the move to the 'safest job' in Australia. Their old positions have already been filled and there is not likely to be any work in aviation in the next 3-5 years.

Maybe it's time for the top of the list to make some sacrifices for the bottom, instead of topping up their 7 figure defined benefit super.

I'm a firm beliver that seniority is the best/worst system, but we're all on the same team, let's not throw the bottom half under the bus.


Where do you start when we have trolls like this posting?
What BS re: near 55 yo senior captains leading any such lifestyles?
Guess you are one of the millenial / gen y crowd, who have never faced a hardship in your short meaningless life, and now want experienced crew who still have years to offer to be sacrificing their hard earned $$$? Your mortgage is no more important than one of theirs.

[maggot]

IsDon & Keg...well played sirs.
Grandstanding. Pprune has always been thus

[George Glass]

Aaaah.... the miasma of despair that hangs over social media.

[Angle of Attack]

Well to go off on a limb, I’m 45 as my profile suggests been aiming for a 50year retirement but the wife is pushing for 58 so I’m guessing with back and forth sparring it should be close to 55. I am definitely going to go at 55, I don’t have much money but if the house is paid off ffs we don’t buy any overpriced crap or posh ****, we will be fine. But I also don’t support throwing crap on the pilots that are forced to work until they are ancient, that’s their choice, not mine,

[rmcdonal]

Your mortgage is no more important than one of theirs.
Those poor pilots with their multiple mortgages.

[j3pipercub]

The irony of someone in the baby boomer generation having a go at a younger generation for 'never facing hardship' is absolutely delicious. News flash, neither have you. Your long meaningless lives must be such a disappointment to your parents generation, the truly 'great generation'.

j3

[George Glass]

Actually j3 , you’re wrong.

-Black Monday 1987

- Pilot Dispute 1989

-Early 90’s recession

The last 27 years have been an aberration.
Anybody over 60 , particularly in aviation, HAS been through tough times.

[das Uber Soldat]

Stand aside battle of Britain, the boomers had to fight the real war. 'The early 90s recession'.


​Never was so much owed by so few to so many.

[patty50]

Boomers always fall back on a few months paying 17% on their $75k houses. And the ever handy “I paid my taxes so I deserve it!!1!”

[George Glass]

OK das , thats really hysterical.
Nothing in the last 75 years compares to WW2.
40% drop in share prices in 1987 wasn’t a joke. And you didn’t have to have shares to be hurt.
State Bank of Victoria
State Bank of SA
Pyramid Building Society
All failed.
Unemployment 11%
Government response overshot and led to interest rates 18%
Many families and businesses never recovered.
Not the Battle of Britain but I suggest you don’t joke about it in the presence of people hurt by it.

[j3pipercub]

George

The next 5-10 years is going to make your little problems seem like a walk in the park. Cry me a river. Cry into the money you made in the last 27 year ‘aberration’ due to the policies your generational voting block ensured themselves whilst screwing all generations after them. Franking Credits, Negative Gearing, Salary Sacrificing to name a few.

So no mate, you’re wrong.

j3

[Capt Fathom]

Just looked outside. I can’t see a full moon!

[coaldemon]

If you don't understand Franking credits then no problem but essentially you shouldn't be taxed twice inside an Investment/ revenue stream.

For Salary sacrifice you are right it doesn't add much value really.

As for Negative gearing I expect that quite a few posters here found out the hard way in the last month how that magnifies losses far more than gains. Lot's of Margin calls talking to someone at Macquarie Bank.

There are a few areas you should be very wary about receiving and believing on the Flight Deck:

Marriage Advice
Investment Advice
Taxation Advice
Sexual Advice

It never ceased to amaze me about how Pilots are happy to impart their wisdom on marriage when they are on their third one or more. Seriously give it up....... As for the list it is up to you which one you think is #1

[mohikan]

Some posters have become absent from both this forum and Qrewroom because having begged flight training for a job and pointed out how much they supported the last EBA Qantas agreed with them and they are still employed full time whilst other more senior pilots remain stood down.

[Fonz121]

Some posters have become absent from both this forum and Qrewroom because having begged flight training for a job and pointed out how much they supported the last EBA Qantas agreed with them and they are still employed full time whilst other more senior pilots remain stood down.

Well that’s complete rubbish.

[George Glass]

Yikes, j3, you’re so angry.
And you’re not even old enough to have done anything yet.
Or has life passed you by already ?

[mattyj]

Most people on their third marriage give the same advice;

“don’t ever get married “

[maggot]

Most people of their third marriage give the same advice;

“don’t ever get married “

I find them perplexed how all their wives turned out to be total bitches yet they're immaculate.

[normanton]

You know it's going to be an interesting flight when the 3rd marriage starts getting mentioned. I just cant wait for the financial talks to start. Which break are you on captain?

[j3pipercub]

Ah George,

2 things

Firstly, I made a sweeping statement about your generation that you felt needed rebutting obviously. You stated I was wrong, I am merely replying to your response. I am not angry, you may be projecting.

Secondly, you know you've lost an argument when you have to resort to personal attacks about someone else.

You have a nice life now champ. I will not be engaging in debate with you directly anymore.

j3

[JPJP]

You mean those on the gravy train should make a sacrifice for the junior pilots? Don't make me laugh!

They will argue they sacrificed enough in the EBA 10 vote. :hmm:

Sacrifice ?

Long before COVID and the threat of A350 outsourcing, you were salivating at the chance to vote for EBA 10. Putting every new SO at Qantas on the worst conditions ever seen on a LH EBA. You openly admitted that your motive was your timely promotion to F.O. After a long, long 2 years as an SO.

Wouldn't it be ironic, if the hobgoblin queen returned you to work on those new SO conditions, that you squealed so eagerly to vote for.

[normanton]

Sacrifice ?

Long before COVID and the threat of A350 outsourcing, you were salivating at the chance to vote for EBA 10. Putting every new SO at Qantas on the worst conditions ever seen on a LH EBA. You openly admitted that your motive was your timely promotion to F.O. After a long, long 2 years as an SO.

Wouldn't it be ironic, if the hobgoblin queen returned you to work on those new SO conditions, that you squealed so eagerly to vote for.
They will never be hired onto the 380, so your argument is invalid.

They could have been put on the Virgin 777 SO pay. And you know what? They would have still been on a better deal then under a new entity.

My motive was to secure the flying. The same motive as AIPA. Perhaps you should follow the advice of your union leaders. 85% or your fellow colleagues did.

[KRUSTY 34]

Well that’s complete rubbish.

One would hope so?

Talking to a very senior F/O (at another airline), who has been stood down on no pay since this thing began. Other less senior F/O’s are still earning a wage flying on the limited services.

Crickets from the AFAP Reps on this one.

[blow.n.gasket]

Talking to a very senior F/O (at another airline), who has been stood down on no pay since this thing began. Other less senior F/O’s are still earning a wage flying on the limited services.

You should know the answer to that one by now Krusty.
” It’s not what you know , but who you blow !”

[normanton]

You should know the answer to that one by now Krusty.
” It’s not what you know , but who you blow !”
Is that where you got your name idea from?

[KRUSTY 34]

You should know the answer to that one by now Krusty.
” It’s not what you know , but who you blow !”

I don’t know if that’s the case here, but it still should be looked at?

[KRUSTY 34]

Is that where you got your name idea from?

No Norm’.

Nothing as entertaining as that!

[Going Nowhere]

If it’s over at the red-tailed mob then it’s all been explained to both the feds and the pilot group.

[KRUSTY 34]

If it’s over at the red-tailed mob then it’s all been explained to both the feds and the pilot group.

As I said, a senior F/O at another airline.

[Blueskymine]

I find them perplexed how all their wives turned out to be total bitches yet they're immaculate.

Marrying the Filipino. Russian or Thai girls got
to be true love though. Especially when they’re half your age and hot.

[George Glass]

Ah George,

2 things

Firstly, I made a sweeping statement about your generation that you felt needed rebutting obviously. You stated I was wrong, I am merely replying to your response. I am not angry, you may be projecting.

Secondly, you know you've lost an argument when you have to resort to personal attacks about someone else.

You have a nice life now champ. I will not be engaging in debate with you directly anymore.

j3

Good on you J3 , the feeling is mutual.
But you didn’t answer the question did you?
Any objective third party would detect the emotion in your texts. Either way I felt the need to rebut your inter generational abuse simply because not only is it ill informed but just plain rude and ultimately very destructive. Nothing personal.

And please don’t bother with the amateur psychology. It make you look silly in the eyes of those of us that have qualifications in the subject.

Bye

[a1anx]

It would be wise to preserve a viable demographic in the retained workforce. Applying basic seniority won't achieve this.

[Ollie Onion]

I think what is clear from this whole debacle is that in this case Seniority is a bad system for the Airlines and a good system for the pilots. Take Air NZ, their most productive fleet going forward is the A320 crewed by the most Junior Pilots, if the bottom 387 do get made redundant the that is almost every A320 FO. You are now left with the most expensive pilots on fleets with little to no work being paid in full with the fleet that can fly having no crew. So down training now begins at a massive cost to the airline in both time and money, at a time where cash burn is king they are forced to do things in the most inefficient way. Qantas is lucky I the respect they can just place people on LWOP and can selectively bring certain fleets back as required with only needing to retrain when fleets or people are cut. So in Air NZ seniority may give the senior pilots a bit of safety but ultimately puts the airline at greater risk of failure which in the long run is not good for any of the pilots. The caveat being is no one saw an event like this happening and we may not see another one in our lifetimes.

[WINJA]

I've heard all this 3am whiney self entitled millenial drivel at 30W many times whilst at the same time clearly demonstrating confidence far in excess of ability.

Wait your turn for command, we all did. ​​​

[cloudsurfng]

I've heard all this 3am whiney self entitled millenial drivel at 30W many times whilst at the same time clearly demonstrating confidence far in excess of ability.

Wait your turn for command, we all did. ​​​

good chance they see you the same way. Can certainly be evident when an attempt (or multiple attempts) is made to come ‘back’ to the ‘light training twin’. Sleeping across the pacific for 25 years does not equal experience, or competence.

speaking as Gen X.

[Asturias56]

"It would be wise to preserve a viable demographic in the retained workforce" - very wise words - no point in having a airline where a large number of crew will disappear all at the same time

[WINJA]

good chance they see you the same way. Can certainly be evident when an attempt (or multiple attempts) is made to come ‘back’ to the ‘light training twin’. Sleeping across the pacific for 25 years does not equal experience, or competence.

speaking as Gen X.
Interesting you mention the light twin. I'm currently flying one now, also training guys. Finished up on the jets in 2015. Horses for courses I guess and very enjoyable. BTW, 30W isn't the Pacific...

[cloudsurfng]

Interesting you mention the light twin. I'm currently flying one now, also training guys. Finished up on the jets in 2015. Horses for courses I guess and very enjoyable. BTW, 30W isn't the Pacific...


touchè.......

[Angle of Attack]

I think the whole bull**** argument going on here is that the Longhaul pilots are fu$ked, nothing will happen for at least a year, in fact the global economy could be so $hitfaced that not much happens until COVID-22 in 2025. Stand down has no time limitations, they will stand you down until they need you. It’s the one time in history that the gravy train is looking down the abyss, because nothing is gonna happen internationally for a year and a half. Cornered dogs get angry, but I believe WW3 is imminent,
Russia will join with China, and nukes will be employed, COVID-19? That’s a tea party compared to the future, this is world order changing stuff. Give it to October, that’s when war will break out. Unless you have a bailout plan seniority won’t mean **** once the nukes start hitting. And you think I’m mad?
Was watching the ABC news yesterday and the main banner said “VIRGIN AUSTRALIA COLLAPSES”
and under it “Oil prices go negative for first time in history”

If I posted those headlines 3 months ago people would call me mad....be careful we are in a transition here and to be honest jobs do t mean **** it’s a power struggle. And we are stuck in the middle.

Now I’ll have a strong black tea with a hint of lemon....😂

[Hoosten]

FFS, I finally get time to build a shed, get all my tools in one place and these rat ****as are going to nuke it in October.

[exfocx]

If you don't understand Franking credits then no problem but essentially you shouldn't be taxed twice inside an Investment/ revenue stream.
............................................................ ...........

Not correct not if you're referring to someone getting FC inside super in retirement.

[normanton]

Some posters have become absent from both this forum and Qrewroom because having begged flight training for a job and pointed out how much they supported the last EBA Qantas agreed with them and they are still employed full time whilst other more senior pilots remain stood down.
What's your beef here mohikan? Qantas? Flight training? Qrewroom? AIPA? More "senior" pilots? S/Os?

Its hard to tell with the amount of bull**** that comes out of your mouth.

[Green.Dot]

There appears to be a few people who seem to be “gleeful” about the potential redundancy scenario going off fleet or by pure seniority. Let’s not forget that if and where the axe falls it is going to be painful for those involved. Let’s just hope it doesn’t happen.

[Ragnor]

Its all good, QF wont axe anyone they will let natural attrition take its course or simply just leave crew on stand down until needed. The AL and LS accrual will be much cheaper than a redundancy payout and when it ramps up again they have crew its win win. Just enjoy the time off and be thankful you're not American.

[mohikan]

There appears to be a few people who seem to be “gleeful” about the potential redundancy scenario going off fleet or by pure seniority. Let’s not forget that if and where the axe falls it is going to be painful for those involved. Let’s just hope it doesn’t it happen.

I will only be gleeful if Normanton gets the arse. Every other S/O has my sympathy and support

[normanton]

I will only be gleeful if Normanton gets the arse. Every other S/O has my sympathy and support
Just not with your vote.

You sound like one of those names people see on the roster, and decide to head for the hills instead.

[skysook]

I will only be gleeful if Normanton gets the arse. Every other S/O has my sympathy and support

Yet in the other forum you said this...

I wont be agreeing to any pay cuts to save Normanton and other S/Os

Can you clarify this please? I’m confused

[ABP]

Standing down staff indefinitely is not in line with Fair Work I believe. Stand down is only for a short-term stoppage of work beyond a company's control, not a lengthy downturn resulting in a long-term reduced schedule. Items like job-sharing or voluntary redundancy should occur first to reduce the surplus, and then potentially forced redundancies. But I'm sure all avenues will be looked at first by the unions to secure as many jobs as possible.

[dr dre]

Standing down staff indefinitely is not in line with Fair Work I believe. Stand down is only for a short-term stoppage of work beyond a company's control, not a lengthy downturn resulting in a long-term reduced schedule.

How long is short-term? It's complicated. Potentially up to 2.5 years, the training freeze? It could be said retraining crew would be cost prohibitive if the plan is to have those crew back on their original aircraft within that freeze period.

Or if it involves circumstances beyond the control of the company, one could say the government travel restrictions to various countries are an example of that, and crew will be stood down until those restrictions are removed and prior passenger loads return.

[ABP]

That's the point. It won't be a time related stand down once a permanent fleet reduction adjustment is made. Qantas won't stand down employees while it mulls an aircraft order that isn't guaranteed whilst operating a smaller start-up international network based on weak global demand, as this is not the Fair Work definition for stand down. Who knows how it'll look. I was addressing the fact that to think everyone will be stood down indefinitely until a position is re-offered is unlikely based on the legislation. However, I do not know everything inside and out of course!

[Green.Dot]

It’s all good, they have found some more work for the A380s...

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1067x585/ff91ca1f_4325_4350_be5b_0e4857982838_b921ba2495f9d7fc7669007 26c2c9fd75c59fb24.jpeg

[dr dre]

That's the point. It won't be a time related stand down once a permanent fleet reduction adjustment is made.

Recent management statements indicate, beyond the already known to be departing 747s the rest of the fleet will basically remain intact for the forseeable future, so a similar number of crew flying them today will be needed to fly them in the short to mid term. And demand may pick up quite slowly, but then suddenly boom, so it's hard to make an accurate judgment of required crew numbers per fleet in the medium term.

[CaptCloudbuster]

Recent management statements...

How many management statements have proved accurate over the last 15 years?

[crosscutter]

How many management statements have proved accurate over the last 15 years?

Many many more than the countering opinions of the PPRune conspiracy theorists.