Still In Service

[Akrotiri bad boy]

Watching an aircraft at altitude heading westwards I thought I'd check FR24 to see just who was heading where; the aircraft in question was a USAF KC135 leaving UK airspace for a west bound oceanic passage. The details provided by FR24 showed the aircraft ID prefixed with 61, which I take to be the year of manufacture, which makes it at least 58 years old :eek:, It has to be older than the crew flying it!
This led to me musing: is this the oldest KC135 in the fleet?, indeed, is this the oldest active aircraft in the USAF inventory?
Over to you :ok:
Akro

[dixi188]

There used to be a saying that "The last B52 pilot's father has yet to be born". I guess that also applied to the KC135. That may still be true with the delays to the KC46.

[EGTE]

The "61" refers to the fiscal year in which funds were allocated for the purchase of the aircraft. It might have been built a year or two later.
There are KC-135s around with earlier serials - there are 58- and 59- serials still around. There are also 4 with 57- serials based at RAF Mildenhall.

[roger4]

The oldest KC-135 currently based at Mildenhall is 57-1440, which made its first flight 16 July 1958. There might be a few in the inventory even older than this.........

[NutLoose]

The oldest aircraft in active US Air Force Service is a Boeing KC-135R Stratotanker. It last flew on July 7, 2018 using the Call sign of REACH419. The registration number is 57-1419 and it was manufactured and accepted into Air Force Service in 1957.


............ :)

[Deltasierra010]

Not to mention U2S 68-10337 flying out of Fairford, there a lot of very elderly airframes still doing good service.

[roger4]

57-1419 first flight 29/5/58, delivered 27/6/58. As EGTE stated, the "57-" serial prefix only denotes the year the funding was approved, not the year it was built/delivered.

[teeteringhead]

So what is the oldest RAF aircraft still flying - not counting the BBMF ones of course. (Not sure if Boscombe should count either?)

Any suggestions??

[roger4]

The oldest aircraft in front line service with the RAF is probably Puma XW199 (f/f 1/1/71).

[treadigraph]

Teeeteringhead, in terms of airframe age, presumably the RC-135s?

In terms of length of service with the RAF, Puma?

[roger4]

Treadigraph, I think you'r right (I overlooked the RC-135 as their serials begin with a "Z"!). Of the three, ZZ666 is the oldest (just) being ex 64-14830 with f/f 12/10/64.

[Herod]

Possibly not continuous service, but oldest RAF airframes surely must be the BBMF

[Stitchbitch]

Possibly not continuous service, but oldest RAF airframes surely must be the BBMF

I think you might be right, Spitfire Mk.2A P7350 is possibly the oldest aircraft still flying with the RAF?

[NutLoose]

The oldest aircraft in front line service with the RAF is probably Puma XW199 (f/f 1/1/71).

It used to be on the OCU fleet when I arrived in 76, glad to see the old girl is still going strong, despite my maintenance ;)

[teeteringhead]

not counting the BBMF ones of course.

Just missed XW 199 when I did my very short Puma course (first pilot, day only, just ....), but I did fly XW 200.

[Martin the Martian]

Mind you, what would be the oldest individual military aircraft in operational use worldwide? Surely has to be a C-47/Dakota?

[Herod]

not counting the BBMF ones of course.

Sorry, missed your comment in post #8

[GeeRam]

Possibly not continuous service, but oldest RAF airframes surely must be the BBMF

Hurricane LF363 is continuous RAF service though, so despite its 'downtime' while being rebuilt following its fire damage after Al Martin managed to get it back to Wittering, it is the longest serving RAF aircraft.

[teeteringhead]

Mind you, what would be the oldest individual military aircraft in operational use worldwide? Surely has to be a C-47/Dakota? Must be for fixed wing I guess. For rotary? Probably a Huey of some sort; for British aircraft are any of the ex-RAF Wessex still flying in Uruguay?

And again I would exclude "Historic Flights" on same grounds as BBMF, I mean aircraft doing a proper military task.

[trim it out]

Probably a Huey of some sort; for British aircraft are any of the ex-RAF Wessex still flying in Uruguay?
212 or Gz perhaps?

[GeeRam]

Mind you, what would be the oldest individual military aircraft in operational use worldwide? Surely has to be a C-47/Dakota?

Isn't 35 Sqn SAAF still operating some turboprop conversion C-47's in the maritime role....?

[Wycombe]

Some of the T1 and T1A Hawks are knocking on a bit. First deliveries in about '77 and some of the current ones in red nearly that old?

[NutLoose]

Portugals military still operates the Chipmunk, that's no spring chicken either.

https://www.milavia.net/specials/fap_dhc-1/

[NutLoose]

Columbia
Two PT-17s remain in active service for display (serials FAC-62 and FAC-1995).

Stearman first first flew in 1934 and the DC3 in 1935

The Israeli Air Force (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Air_Force) maintains a single airworthy PT-17

[NutLoose]

So what is the oldest RAF aircraft still flying - not counting the BBMF ones of course. (Not sure if Boscombe should count either?)

Any suggestions??

That will be the Hunter then.


.

[NutLoose]

Just missed XW 199 when I did my very short Puma course (first pilot, day only, just ....), but I did fly XW 200.

Yup we had XW199 XW200 XW201 XW202 XW218.... 218 being a replacement for 198 that beat itself to death on the end of the lazy runway.

[Fareastdriver]

I was on No 4 Course in September 1971. I had spent the previous four months skulking over the south side preparing 33 Sqn's accommodation, building the coffee bar etc etc. Apparently I was supposed to be helping out in Flying Wing but they didn't miss me. My first flight with Dick Holmes was in XW199 but I did all the start and such as I had spent some time with Trevor Wood in XW204; the squadron's first aircraft. 33 Sqn. received XW 204 to XW 216, twelve aircraft, (no CQ) and 230 Sqn. carried on with XW 217 onwards.

In 1972 we were issued with XW227 which had a tailrotor protection skid. We were reliably informed that they would NOT be retrospectively fitted to earlier ones. This shortcoming was pointed out at Thetford when 219 brushed the ground with its tail rotor and seriously disassembled itself. Three weeks later they all had them fitted.

[NutLoose]

And a Wing Commander P A ( he who I believe fell over in a wessex on the main pan ) who dragged one across the airfield on his Puma course tearing the skid out of its mounting, then triying to blame the ground crew for missing it dangling in the wind on a turn round and his crew too..who then had a guy driving back and forth over the airfield looking for the impact point,

FarEast you know someone posted a lot of the course photographs on the Puma Facebook pages.

.

[Fareastdriver]

I never have, or will, belong to Facebook.

I did 2,000 hrs on the Puma HC1, Another 1,000 hrs on the SA330J, and then, interposed with 2.500 hrs on the Sikorsky S76, another 9500 hrs on the 332L/L1.

Flying the various versions of the Puma I cannot remember a moment of concern. We wont talk about the (write your own emergency checklist as you go along) S 76A.

[cashash]

Yup we had XW199 XW200 XW201 XW202 XW218.... 218 being a replacement for 198 that beat itself to death on the end of the lazy runway.


XW201 - looking good..

https://c.imge.to/2020/04/15/yon78A.jpg (https://imge.to/i/yon78A)

[Asturias56]

Digging around I found ou that the Paraguayan Air force operated some 1930's Cubs until relatively recently in the training role but these have been replaced by something a little more modern. Not a surprise as I think the Paraguayan Navy operate the oldest warship (excluding vessels such as USN "Constitution") the "Capitan Cabral" - she was built by Werf-Conrad in Haarlem and commissioned in 1908, refitted in 1984 and was "still in excellent condition" in the last copy of Jane's I have

[Davef68]

Some of the AAC Gazelles are not far behind the Pumas in terms of age

[NutLoose]

They may well be, but it still does not get around the fact the oldest military aircraft still in UK military service bar the BBMF etc is the Hunter.

[Herod]

Where is the Hunter? The "target" ones, if still in service, are commercial companies I think.

[treadigraph]

At least three "mil registered", all ex Swiss AF and G-reg I think.

[scr1]

Stearman first first flew in 1934 and the DC3 in 1935

The Israeli Air Force (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Air_Force) maintains a single airworthy PT-17


They also have a spitfire https://www.iaf.org.il/4421-45092-en/IAF.aspx

[NutLoose]

Where is the Hunter? The "target" ones, if still in service, are commercial companies I think.


But to operate they are on the MIL register with Mil serial numbers ZZ191 amongst them, and are based out of Scampton, the advantage of being on the MIl register means for trial work they can avoid any modification problems and when the Hunter was grounded these could continue in service, they also have a mothballed Bucc that can be generated, an SU22 and also an ex German Phantom.

https://www.hunterteam.com/aboutus/




After extensive negotiations HHA acquired the aircraft on the 14 January 1999 when it was flown to our maintenance facility at RAF Scampton. When delivered, the aircraft had accrued only 767 flight hours in 743 flights and became the youngest & lowest houred aircraft in our fleet.
The SU22M4 is currently in storage in HHA’s RAF Scampton, undergoing regular anti-det maintenance and custodial ground runs. The aircraft, its systems and spares are maintained in such a condition that it can readily be reactivated to flight status, should a contractual tasking arise which requires the performance and flight envelope of the SU22 platform.

After over 2750 hours of design verification and critical system analysis work by HHA staff, the aircraft was classified in the BCAR A8-20 ‘Complex’ category for civilian use.
XX885 is currently in storage at HHA’s RAF Scampton facility undergoing regular anti-det maintenance and custodial ground runs. The aircraft, it’s systems and spares are maintained in such a condition that it can readily be reactivated to flight status should a contractual tasking arise which requires the performance & flight envelope of the Buccaneer platform.


https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/800x524/image_ae87d87515c18a02095fc1cff3fd8713979ccc38.png

They will all be adopting this scheme BTW

https://live.staticflickr.com/924/43342017882_c8111ba2c9_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/292ZaUo)
ZZ191 Hunter Team Hawker Hunter F.58 at RIAT 2018 R.A.F Fairford Gloucestershire (EGVA) (https://flic.kr/p/292ZaUo) by shamu28 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/20998733@N04/), on Flickr


Phantom ‘Phorce’In recent years, a couple of ex-German F-4F Phantoms have also joined HHA’s line up, one of which will be on static display this weekend. Like the Hunters, they’re not flyby- wire, but they’re extremely fast and can carry a huge variety of equipment.

“The Phantoms will enable us to undertake various tasking that involve supersonic flight,” says Mat. “There’s one F-4F that is about to commence overhaul in Germany, and the other is here at Scampton, which we currently use as a ground procedures trainer. They will eventually fly on the UK military register with the one currently still in Germany having had the registration ZK848 allocated to it. The acquisition process has taken a long time, because it has meant dealing with ITAR [International Traffic in Arms Regulations] and included working with the US Department of Defence, the German MoD and the MoD here in Britain – so a lot of people generating a lot of paperwork have been involved in the process.

“It’s a supersonic fighter jet with modern systems fitted within, so getting them ready was always going to be a complex affair, and one that we are determined to do correctly and get right. Remember that the aircraft itself is only the tip of the iceberg as far as the infrastructure and certification processes that have to be established to operate the type. All of our activity is audited and endorsed by the MAA, and with that relationship in place we are able to make this work.”


Only know as there was an article in a magazine I read lately, they have put the small engined hunters in storage and are operating the Avon 200 models as that engine is still being overhauled where as the 100 is'nt.

https://www.hunterteam.com/hunterteam_news/

[Akrotiri bad boy]

Great responses guys :ok: Watching FR24 again I can see KC135 59-1513 over the North Sea playing with a NATO E3, (how old is that one?), and an even older KC just touching down at Mildenhall winning today's elderly aircraft award with a 1958 tail code (58-0113).

[Herod]

Thanks, Nutloose. Looks like you might have nailed it there. Impressive.

[longer ron]

Some of the T1 and T1A Hawks are knocking on a bit. First deliveries in about '77 and some of the current ones in red nearly that old?
The cockpits sections are original but the centre/rear fuselages were replaced (Mod 2010) and the Wings were replaced (Mod 999) so yes the cockpits are knocking on a bit :)

[teeteringhead]

The cockpits sections are original but the centre/rear fuselages were replaced (Mod 2010) and the Wings were replaced (Mod 999) so yes the cockpits are knocking on a bit https://www.pprune.org/images/smilies/smile.gif I guess many of these "ancient" aircraft are a bit like Trigger's broom.....

[longer ron]

I guess many of these "ancient" aircraft are a bit like Trigger's broom.....

The ETPS/Qinetiq Hawks were pre mod - ie with premod wings and fuselage (XX154 was pre pre pre mod LOL) and there are at least 2 hybrid RAF Hawks - the Av Med Flt (RAFCAM) Hawks (162 and 327) have premod fuselage but do have mod999 Wings.

[oldbeefer]

[QUOTE=Fareastdriver;10750046]I was on No 4 Course in September 1971.

Well - so was I!

[megan]

We wont talk about the (write your own emergency checklist as you go along) S 76AMay be your maintenance or operating conditions FED. The only major drama we had in a fleet of six was a single engine failure and a high side governor, personally 6,000 hours in the machine. Engines didn't last long, but our maintenance was on top of that, on overhaul they were blueprinted.

Be interested in your experiences of the machine, PM if necessary.

[Akrotiri bad boy]

Since starting this thread and identifying, via Post #4, the oldest KC I've scoured FR24 looking for elderly airframes. Last night I struck gold and found KC135 s/n 57-1440 stooging about at 12,000ft over The Wash, I know it's all in a day's routine for the crews but I find it quite remarkable that a 62 year old airframe is still out there on the front line doing it's bit. The fact this 62 year old girl is still delivering is testament to the "rightness" of the original Boeing 367-80/707 design. I wonder if we'll ever see 62 year KC 46/767's? I rather think the KC135 is the jet equivalent of the DC3 in that it will see off every contender for its replacement.:ok:

[The Toilet Tester]

Great responses guys :ok: Watching FR24 again I can see KC135 59-1513 over the North Sea playing with a NATO E3, (how old is that one?), and an even older KC just touching down at Mildenhall winning today's elderly aircraft award with a 1958 tail code (58-0113).

The NATO E3's are 1979 Fiscal year ie LX-N90451 equates 79-0451.

Cheers.
The Toilet Tester.

[Lyneham Lad]

Article and photos in The Times today.
High flyer: why the B-52 bomber will last a hundred years (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/deac891c-5fe1-11eb-86d9-8d012affb84d?shareToken=a5f972691f3a1ac9d2aabafdd8805066)

hrough the Cold War, Vietnam, the War on Terror and into the present day (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/trump-sends-more-b-52s-to-gulf-and-tells-iran-call-me-jg5k2vnz2), the B-52 Stratofortress strategic bomber has been America’s most dependable airborne platform for deterring a nuclear war and waging mass conventional strikes.

Now, after 65 years in service, there is every expectation that with planned new engines and avionic updates this mighty symbol of US military potency could celebrate its centenary in operational service in 2055, a unique milestone in aerospace history.

While the Pentagon waits for the first flight of the next-generation strategic bomber, the exotically shaped and stealthy B-21 Raider, due next year, the US defence department has officially decided to extend the life of the B-52 to 2050 and beyond.


An air force request to suppliers for quieter and more fuel-efficient engines, of which there are eight on each aircraft, should make it possible for the B-52 not only to reach its centenary mark but to do so with less need for mid-air refuelling. The present engines give an un-refuelled range of about 8,800 miles; the new ones could extend that to more than 12,300 miles. Rolls-Royce is among the companies (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/rolls-royce-limps-into-the-battle-for-key-b-52-contract-dgrsnkc5s)competing for the contract for 608 new engines.

The B-52 may be a relic of the Cold War but it is still relied on by the Pentagon as a “big stick” to be reckoned with. It is an extraordinary aviation story. No such longevity will be granted to the bat-winged B-2 Spirit stealth bomber, which came into service in 1993 and is likely to be phased out from 2032, a mere 39 years.

The B-52 has gone through a series of refits, refurbishments and upgrades to save it from the scrapheap. The eight-engined Big Ugly Fat Fellow (Buff), as it is affectionately known, has a wing span of more than 184ft (56m) and a distinctive nose that inspired the 1960s pop culture beehive hairstyle. The cultural references expanded with the eponymous American band forming in 1976 and legend has it that the coffee-based cocktail was invented a year later.

Standing under the wings of one of the earlier versions, the B-52G, on display at the national museum of nuclear science and history in Albuquerque, New Mexico, gives an idea of what a mouse must feel when shadowed by a golden eagle or a condor.


However, it is not just its size and huge weapons payload, nuclear or conventional, that has given the B-52 its awesome reputation. It is an aircraft that is as happy flying at low altitude, down to 200ft with terrain-following radar, as it is at high altitude, at least 41,000ft.

“It’s like an old truck that was built when they actually built them tough,” General Charles Brown, US air force chief of staff, told The Wall Street Journal.


When the retired air force colonel Fran Gibbons first flew the B-52 on nuclear-deterrent operations in 1976, he already thought of it as an old aircraft; after all, it was designed in 1948 and had its maiden flight in 1952.

“I’m 68, so the B-52 is about my age — and I’m retired with seven grandchildren,” he told The Times from his home in Rockwall, Texas. As a second lieutenant he had dreams of being a fighter pilot but he was selected for bombers: the B-52. “I was a fighter pilot in a bomber’s body.”

However, it was a move he never came to regret. He carried out nuclear-deterrent patrols, always in US airspace, up to 1989 when the Cold War came to an end. “I never had to fly the B-52 towards the Soviet Union,” he said.

In the 1960s it had a round-the-clock deterrent role with a dozen B-52s on continuous airborne alert, packed with nuclear bombs, in an operation codenamed Chrome Dome. The bombers’ bellies were painted white to deflect the heat of a nuclear explosion.


Although the threat of nuclear war in the late 1970s and 1980s diminished, Mr Gibbons has not forgotten the responsibility he carried with him every time he flew. “There was always a sense of gravity, and you had to keep up with the news,” he said. “I flew three or four times a month for eight to 13 hours at a time, one week on, two weeks off. It was a large aircraft to fly but it was safe and always brought me home.”

He is proud of the B-52’s enduring service and has filled his home with pictures of the plane, and plaques commemorating special events.

He flew the B-52G, which had a crew of six, including a tail gunner. The last enemy aircraft shot down by a B-52 tail gunner was in 1972 in the Vietnam War but 17 were lost in combat. The requirement for a tail gunner ended in 1991. Today’s version, the B-52H, has a crew of five.

The bomber now has an expanded conventional role, with a 32-tonne weapons payload.

As part of Operation Desert Storm in 1991, during the Gulf War, B-52s delivered 40 per cent of all the weapons brought in for the US-led coalition air forces, underlining the effectiveness of the plane in a conventional role. It also played a prominent strike role in Iraq, Afghanistan and Syria.For the air force and US strategic command, the longevity, ruggedness and adaptability of the B-52 have been remarkable features of a remarkable bomber. A total of 744 B-52s with eight Pratt & Whitney engines were built by Boeing during the Cold War.

Today, 76 of the H models are in operation, frequently flying in pairs from their base in North Dakota to the Middle East and South China Sea to demonstrate to potential adversaries — Iran and China — that the B-52 should never be underestimated. They will probably continue to do so for at least another 30 years.