C150 cost and PA28

[Deanna41]

Hi,

It is that time again as to if I should buy a C150 or a PA28. The trouble with a C150 is CASA has implemented SIDS and that is a major issue. Below is my estimated costs per aircraft and anyone is entitled to amended these figures. Please note all whole numbers are rounded up.

C150 Operating Costs
Engine (replace every 5 years) $27000.00
Propeller (replace every 7 years) $8000.00
100 hourly $2000.00 (Also not I am planning on flying 100 hours per year and the results indicate this)
SIDS $5000 (Every 3 years)
Insurance $1500.00
Hangarage $3000.00

Total $18045.00

Fuel 98 litres=$171 per 5 hours or $34.00 per hour
Oil= 6 quarts at $13.00 a quart = $78.00
Assuming use 17 quarts for 100 hours= 17 =$1326.00

Total $4726.00

Total yearly cost $22771.00 break down into 100 hours = $228 per hour

PA28 Operating costs

Engine $27000.00 (replace every 5 years)
Propeller (replace every 7 years) $8000.00
100 hourly $2500.00
Insurance $2600.00
Hangarage $3000.00

Total $14645.00

Fuel 121 Litres=$124.00X1.74=$216..00 per 5 hours or $42.00 per hour
Oil 7 quarts=7X$13.00 per bottle=$91.00
Assuming use 14 quarts for 100 hours=$1400.00

Total $16045.00 broken into 100 hours = $161.00 per hour

Now as I have never bought an aircraft before, I do not know if these prices are realistic! Then another thing to consider is buying more economical over renting??

I would appreciate any ones thoughts on this!!!

[machtuk]

I hope VA don't see this crazy breakdown, they'll make you the next CEO!

[pistongone]

I am not up on NZ rules, but why are you factoring in an engine change every 5 years, when you only anticipate 100 hrs per year? PA28 would have the 0320 E2D and they go to 2000 tbo normally, here in UK we then run on condition, many making it close to or over 3000 hrs? Same with the prop. Your other figures don't correlate to what I understand and I have owned a few Cherokees and flown many Cessnas.
Again, not up on NZ reg's, but I am sure the possible(Strongly) anticipated AD for PA28 spar cap inspections is looming? Expect 15 - 20 hrs labour, eddy testing and a few more surprises at the next annual!
Typically I would plan on 28 -30 ltr/hr on a Cherokee, Warriors a little more? So 5 hrs is more like 150 ltrs?
Lastly, I normally put in 1 or 2 litres, as near as damn it a quart, in every 50 hr cycle, 14 quarts would be a reason to say no flying for me today!

[The Baron]

Don't leave out the control cable inspection. You can do it annually or replace them. You get 10 years free of inpections if you replace.
I would go with the Cherokee. Lots of parts available, still making them and a tougher little airframe. Don't be too worried about the spar inspectons. Common sense will eventually be applied. A higher crosswind limit also means they can keep flying while the Cessnas are parked.

[deja vu]

For a million reasons........

"If it can float, f#@k or fly
rent, don't buy"

[Arnold E]

I'm a huge fan of the C150, they are almost idiot proof,this can be verified by the fact I'm still around. I converted mine to a taildragger ,(dont know that I would bother doing that again) but only after that was a crosswind of serious consideration. Prior to the conversions crosswinds were a mild inconvenience certainly nothing to be concerned about. They are dirt cheap to run and, agreed, they havent been built for many years but there is still plenty of parts around. Much better view from a high wing and you are always parked in the shade. (unless its an Aerobat)

[Slatye]

Now as I have never bought an aircraft before, I do not know if these prices are realistic! Then another thing to consider is buying more economical over renting??

I would appreciate any ones thoughts on this!!!I'd take the PA28 regardless of cost; it's a much nicer plane than the C150. I'd normally compare the PA28 to a C172.

With your prices:

- You're calculating the engine at $54/hour (replacement after 500 hours) which seems very excessive. Reasonable would be an overhaul at 2000 hours, which will (a) be cheaper than replacement, and (b) happens a quarter as often.
- Fuel is cheap now, but I expect that within a year we'll be back over $2/L.
- I'm not following your oil pricing. You've calculated 7 qts = $91, but 14 qts = $1400? As noted above, if you're putting in more than a quart every 20-ish hours of flying then something is wrong with your engine. I calculate that as 0.05 qts/hour = $0.65/hour, which is negligible.


For buying vs renting - at 100 hours per year, and if this is going to be just your plane (nobody else renting it from you), renting will almost certainly come out cheaper. Renting saves time too (no need to organize hangar space, insurance, maintenance, etc) and it's easy to change planes (eg. if you want to move to a nicer plane then you can rent a C182 or an Arrow). On the other hand, buying means that your plane is ready whenever you want to fly (barring maintenance), and you can do what you want with it (eg. sick of that noisy radio? Scrap it and install a new one). Your call on whether it makes sense.

[mostlytossas]

Add in $5000 to 10000/yr for unforseen expenses. Such as Vac pump failure,radio problems ,transponder problems /checks ,instrument 2 yearly re adjustment and repairs,spark plug failure ,mags overhaul, battery replacement,tyres, oleo repairs, paint touchups, corrosion removal,Landing fees.Prop filing due stone chips,trim repairs. The 100 hour service is only half of it. Take it from an owner. If you are still intent on buying an aircraft at least buy a 4 seater. Far more versatile and if you must hire it out more in demand.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Wait a 'little longer'.....they will be giving them away soon........and, go with the PA.28 for durability / toughness and you can select a 4 seater...........IMHO

Cheeerrrsss.....

[Horatio Leafblower]

A new fixed pitch prop is about $7800, but there is no way you will need a new one at overhaul unless you are operating off sand or very rocky ground. You can expect a fixed pitch prop to last 18-20 years.

CASA hasn't implemented SIDs, Textron has. Don't fall for the bull**** that it's optional.

Fuel figures are... odd.

C150 = 23lt/hour = $47.15
PA28= 36/hour = $73.80

Oil consumption depends on condition of course but if you are using more than 1qt per 10 hours you have been sold a lemon.

Engine overhaul figures are highly variable and often include things you weren't planning for. I would suggest a O-200 (Cessna C150) is about $42,000 and the O-360 (PA28) similar or more.
Beware the exchange rate!

[Bend alot]

C150 Operating Costs
Engine (replace every 5 years) $27000.00
Propeller (replace every 7 years) $8000.00
100 hourly $2000.00 (Also not I am planning on flying 100 hours per year and the results indicate this)
SIDS $5000 (Every 3 years)
Fuel 98 litres=$171 per 5 hours or $34.00 per hour
Oil= 6 quarts at $13.00 a quart = $78.00
Assuming use 17 quarts for 100 hours= 17 =$1326.00

!

In Oz land

Both T.C.M. & Lycoming have a "recommended" 12 year overhaul period. 1700/2000 & 2000 hr TBO also. I would put aside $75K for this including fitment - this can be extended "On Condition".

Props from memory are 6 years TBO & plan on $1,200 - $1,500.

100 hly/anual on a average $3,000/$3,500 per year (always something to change/do)

SID's many not required to be done (depends on CASA areas local interpretation) - the ones required vary in years/hours, the small ones are included in the above 100hly figure. The others mostly @5 year intervals from memory will add around an extra $1,000 on a C150 for the inspection/s - repairs are an unknown.

Fuel for budget figures use 60 lt per hour (1 lt per minute) for oil 2 lt per 10 hours (this covers your 50 hr oil change also).

* Spend good money on a FULL pre-purchase - avoid the engine that has been sitting for along time or get it bulkstripped.

[tail wheel]

Fuel figures seem rather odd, cost too low?

100 hourly $2000.00

Good luck achieving $2,000 as an average per 100 hourly on a 25 to 30 year old airplane!!

How about radio, electrical, instrument, tires, corrosion and 100 other reasons why costs are extremely difficult to predict.

Engine (replace every 5 years) $27000.00

If you are flying only 100 hours per annum you won't be replacing the engine every five years. But when it does come to overhaul I suspect the bill will be closer to Aus$35,000 to Aus$40,000 with new cylinders, if there are no major component or crankcase repairs.

What I can predict is that there will be two wonderful days in your life - the day you buy and the day you sell. :}

[Bend alot]

Fuel figures seem rather odd, cost too low?



Good luck achieving $2,000 as an average per 100 hourly on a 25 to 30 year old airplane!!

How about radio, electrical, instrument, tires, corrosion and 100 other reasons why costs are extremely difficult to predict.



If you are flying only 100 hours per annum you won't be replacing the engine every five years. But when it does come to overhaul I suspect the bill will be closer to Aus$35,000 to Aus$40,000 with new cylinders, if there are no major component or crankcase repairs.

What I can predict is that there will be two wonderful days in your life - the day you buy and the day you sell. :}
As often said this is a pilots forum- I am a maintenance guy.

I suspect maintenance costs to be closer to mine - actual and budget. Sux budgeting for 10 lts oil use per hour.

[mustafagander]

C152 and Pa 28 really are apples and oranges. You do circuits in a C152 and you can go touring in a PA28. What do you want to do?

As for engine overhaul, my pals just spent $40K on an overhaul for their time ex C172S engine. Prop OK. The LAME wanted 4 days work to remove and replace the engine.

As said before, if it flies, floats of fcuks never buy it, rent it.

[Possum1]

Take another adult and just sit in each aircraft. My wife and I did. We sat in a C152. We both looked at each other(very closely) while struggling to get the door shut. The C152 was removed from our list there and then and we continued our search for a nice straight C172 or PA28.

[Squawk7700]

Oh how I love my experimental !!

The last annual cost me nothing more than a few hours of my time.

Edit - I tell a lie, I had to fit an $15 bleeder on the brake line as I broke the old one off accidentally due to my gorilla hands.

[Okihara]

The figures for the PA28 are right there but those for the C150 seem a little high to me. If you look around, you'll find that you can rent C152s from school for around $240/h wet and they still need to make ~ $60 margin on this so $228 is probably a tad too high. If you are going to fly 100s of hours, ask any operator how much bulk discount they'd give you, and you'll save yourself the hassle of ownership.

It's a little hard to answer definitely without considering the bigger picture in this, e.g. who you are personally, if you are learning to fly, or are a seasoned pilot looking for fun on the side, etc. When I started out, I got hooked so much on flying that my first idea was also to buy my own plane. And so I asked around, did the maths (which seemed to make a lot of sense by the way!), and all the while carried on with my training. Interestingly the more I flew, the less I became certain that I had to buy my own plane. Now I look back and realise that waiting was the correct approach (for me at least). Had I bought one, I would have regretted it 3 months later.

So what strikes me is this: When you say that you are intent on flying 100h per year, and considered a 5-7 year horizon to calculate your costs, my immediate question is (asked honestly and respectfully): Do you actually really want to do so much flying in such basic aircraft? I've spent probably 80h between Warrior and Archer and around 30h in a C152 and I'd say that's more than enough. From personal experience a C152 is fun and that's really that. Of course you can go places but with that 25 kts headwind time will feel really, really long and with the little instrumentation you'll have, the fun will wear out rather quickly. And when it eventually does, you won't fly those 100h a year. If you can eye a Warrior or, better, an Archer, then you at least give yourself more room to play with, the performance is at least descent and you can take 2+ pax (if you leave some fuel at the bowser).

Here's one more thing: $18K+/year is $90K+ over 5 years. Have you considered what other type of flying you could afford for that money? It would be less than 500h but how would 350h in a more advanced aircraft sound? Are you really going to fly those 100h a year.

If it's down to either a C152 or a PA28, then I'd at the very least consider a C172 and some LSA such the Sling 2 or the Sling 4. There's just more fun packed into that.

Good luck!

[Squawk7700]

It’s more about your income.

Only you know how much is coming into your bank account! (and possibly the tax man)

Plenty of us have disposable income to afford our aircraft and many more don’t !

If you’re splitting hairs over the cost of overhauling a 152 engine versus a PA28 engine then owning an aircraft is probably not for you.

The engine could throw a piston at 800 hours. If you don’t have enough in your accumulating kitty to replace it, what happens then?

[tail wheel]

As often said this is a pilots forum- I am a maintenance guy.

I've owned seven aircraft (from C150 to C402), six boats and four sports cars, the rest of my wages I spent foolishly.

Whilst I have great respect for good maintenance guys, I've learned to be very skeptical of their pre maintenance cost "estimates". :}

I've also learned that a penny skimped on maintenance will ultimately cost the owner a dollar and there is no such thing as a cheap engine overhaul. :=

My advice to Deanna41 would be to take a Bex and a long lie down until the madness passes! :} :}

[machtuk]

Interesting thread. OP throws some figures around that kinda don't make sense, many respond and in the two days since the start the guy has not responded to any of this?
Bit odd, maybe a ploy to keep everyone guessing..lol

[Capt Fathom]

Maybe he works for a living!

[TBM-Legend]

C152 and Pa 28 really are apples and oranges. You do circuits in a C152 and you can go touring in a PA28. What do you want to do?

As for engine overhaul, my pals just spent $40K on an overhaul for their time ex C172S engine. Prop OK. The LAME wanted 4 days work to remove and replace the engine.

As said before, if it flies, floats of fcuks never buy it, rent it.



Last year staying with a friend in Van Nuys. He has a small shop of he and another A&P. Cirrus needing an engine change . He heads to the owners T-Hangar with his pick and tools at 7am. Engine out and new and an exchange engine fitted with new mounts, new scat hoses and new oil/fuel lines and a cleanup of the mount and bay done by him with his offsider with a lunch break of 30 minutes and running by 6pm ready for dynamic prop balance and check flight at 7am. Back to the owner by 9am. Labour cost $2200.00. [forget exchange rates as salaries are similar] The game changer for me was that he was organised and had pre-ordered the mounts and hoses etc and had a comprehensive toolbox in his truck plus oil etc etc...

[Bend alot]

Last year staying with a friend in Van Nuys. He has a small shop of he and another A&P. Cirrus needing an engine change . He heads to the owners T-Hangar with his pick and tools at 7am. Engine out and new and an exchange engine fitted with new mounts, new scat hoses and new oil/fuel lines and a cleanup of the mount and bay done by him with his offsider with a lunch break of 30 minutes and running by 6pm ready for dynamic prop balance and check flight at 7am. Back to the owner by 9am. Labour cost $2200.00. [forget exchange rates as salaries are similar] The game changer for me was that he was organised and had pre-ordered the mounts and hoses etc and had a comprehensive toolbox in his truck plus oil etc etc...

The 4 days would be for things such as baffle repairs, cable replacements, receipt and dispatch of engines the "phone calls" and CASA compliance. Cirrus is relatively new compared to the two aircraft mentioned, but have a slightly higher purchase price on most occasions.

[jonkster]

Another thing to throw into the mix, there is the possibility of of an AD for inspection/repair of wing spar caps in PA28 series aircraft being made in the US.
https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2018/12/21/2018-27577/airworthiness-directives-piper-aircraft-inc-airplanes
If that happens expect it to be applied here.

I am aware of several PA28s in Oz that recently have been inspected pre-emptively and have shown evidence of damage and so would be wary of buying a PA28 without having that inspection done and the spar repaired/replaced if it shows sign of damage/corrosion. Best to talk to a LAME about this first - I am not a LAME so going on what I have seen/read around the traps.

Rectification will be an added cost and time consuming if damage found and may make a bargain purchase a liability.

Nothing against the aircraft but most of them are getting old and may have a history of work that has placed stress on that area (particularly ex flying school aircraft).

[Bend alot]

Another thing to throw into the mix, there is the possibility of of an AD for inspection/repair of wing spar caps in PA28 series aircraft being made in the US.
https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2018/12/21/2018-27577/airworthiness-directives-piper-aircraft-inc-airplanes
If that happens expect it to be applied here.


If that happens it is mandated here - been the case for some years now.