Advice for the Covid Graduates

[drisssouid]

Hi guys,

Before the pandemic lockdown I was an integrated atpl student with only 9h left until my final CPL/MPL/IR exam and therefore my MCC course.
As the aftermath of this situation is clearly terrible for the economy and the aviation sector, everyone in my situation or freshly graduated pilots are in a very bad position. Currently I'm trying to think about all the possibilities, one being getting an instructor rating but I'm not sure how the market for instructors will be after all of this, the other one is to get a job outside of the industry such as working in a supermarket,etc (I joined my training straight from high school so no higher education, whatsoever) so I can pay plane rentals so I can keep my license current and wait to see how the industry changes from the pandemic.
Any opinion/suggestion would be really appreciated.

Cheers
Driss

[planesandthings]

You'll be more likely to get a job as an instructor than an airline job in the next 24 months. As a career instructor and examiner I know already there is tonnes of work for me after this, refresher flights, revalidations, training and currency, sure there will be some who now cannot afford to continue but the only pilot shortage that has ever existed has not been in the airline market recently but in the instructional market. It is an investment though and one for you to decide on, speak to some schools and see if they'll fund you/provide you with some job ideas at the end.

Unfortunately you are now learning the pitfalls of joining the aviation industry without at least some post school education, not necessarily university. I strongly suggest during the lockdown you take whatever job opportunities you can, I know pilots currently working in hospital jobs, delivery drivers and they were recently flying airliners who have unfortunately had owners that have gone to the wall.

With unemployment set to rise you'll need to act fast. Hopefully you don't have too much debt. If you do become an instructor you're going to need to live and breathe it and not think of the end goal of an airliner for a while. Instructing is fantastic but it isn't for everyone. Good luck!

[VariablePitchP]

Hi guys,

Before the pandemic lockdown I was an integrated atpl student with only 9h left until my final CPL/MPL/IR exam and therefore my MCC course.
As the aftermath of this situation is clearly terrible for the economy and the aviation sector, everyone in my situation or freshly graduated pilots are in a very bad position. Currently I'm trying to think about all the possibilities, one being getting an instructor rating but I'm not sure how the market for instructors will be after all of this, the other one is to get a job outside of the industry such as working in a supermarket,etc (I joined my training straight from high school so no higher education, whatsoever) so I can pay plane rentals so I can keep my license current and wait to see how the industry changes from the pandemic.
Any opinion/suggestion would be really appreciated.

Cheers
Driss

I’d agree with the flight instructing but only if you absolutely 100% want to be an instructor, otherwise it’s not fair on the students.

I’m assuming you’re European? Would help to know where you are but, assuming you are, here’s what I’d do. I’d go to uni and get a relevant degree in something I firstly enjoy and secondly can see a job in, not necessarily a career but at least a job.

Like computers? Go do that, you’re only taking on student loan debt so it’s not ‘real’ debt, and you’ll get a good degree out of it. Assuming you’re unlikely to get an airline seat for 3-4 years, the timing is perfect. And if you do, one of two things will happen:

You keep your ratings valid at uni, come out into a hiring boom and get a job. Great
You keep your ratings valid at uni, come out into a hiring drought and go make some money elsewhere for a few years. Still great.

No matter which of the above happens, you will have the most enjoyable three years of your life, drink more beer, and have more sex than you’ve ever dreamed of. You’ll come out a far more rounded person and will be so grateful for it (as will the people you fly with who don’t have to fly with someone who only knows how to talk about aeroplanes).

Yes the market for jobs sucks, you’re still crazy young, try and see it as an opportunity.

[Meester proach]

Try and find something else until aviation picks up ( 1-5 years !).

Certainly in the Uk this will trigger a large scale depression and has killed many jobs and industries - I just don’t see that many who were thinking if flight training will have the money now - after all it’s the ultimate discretionary spend

[drisssouid]

I’d agree with the flight instructing but only if you absolutely 100% want to be an instructor, otherwise it’s not fair on the students.

I’m assuming you’re European? Would help to know where you are but, assuming you are, here’s what I’d do. I’d go to uni and get a relevant degree in something I firstly enjoy and secondly can see a job in, not necessarily a career but at least a job.

Like computers? Go do that, you’re only taking on student loan debt so it’s not ‘real’ debt, and you’ll get a good degree out of it. Assuming you’re unlikely to get an airline seat for 3-4 years, the timing is perfect. And if you do, one of two things will happen:

You keep your ratings valid at uni, come out into a hiring boom and get a job. Great
You keep your ratings valid at uni, come out into a hiring drought and go make some money elsewhere for a few years. Still great.

No matter which of the above happens, you will have the most enjoyable three years of your life, drink more beer, and have more sex than you’ve ever dreamed of. You’ll come out a far more rounded person and will be so grateful for it (as will the people you fly with who don’t have to fly with someone who only knows how to talk about aeroplanes).

Yes the market for jobs sucks, you’re still crazy young, try and see it as an opportunity.
Thanks for all the replies,
Yes, I’m european, from Portugal exactly. If I were to become an instructor it would be something enjoyable for me, I wouldn’t go for it just for the hours and for the money. My only fear is spending more money on the rating and then not finding a job as instructor as well.
I’ve thought about going for a uni degree or even joining the military, but at this point I guess I just have to wait and see how things develop and the first months after the pandemic.

[lansen]

I hate to say it, but we are three months into this pandemic. Nobody knows anything. Drawing conclusions if this will be over by easter or in five years are pure beliefs. And personally I advise anybody believing and thinking about certain theories to look up a nearby church and not a cockpit.
History tells us that this could be over over quick (SARS/Swine-Flu) or last years (Gulf war/9/11). Of course, this situation is unprecedented. But at the same time, aviation is and has always been very dynamic and well known to adapt to the ****tiest of situations its been put to test on.

Fingers crossed, we'll all find a job again. The question is not if but when.

Regarding panic decisions like becoming a flight instructor. Ask yourself, do you, 1, want to instruct? Or do you, 2, only want to get flight hours? If only 2 is the case and 1 is the way of you achieving it. Please spare your money. The last thing this world needs, is another **** zero to hero atpl flight school instructor with 200 hours experience and the preset goal to piss off when he/she reaches 1500.
Fly skydivers, do banner towing, make friends pay for you taking them sightseeing. Do anything but becoming a crap flight instructor.

Fingers crossed for all of us :ok:

[Hawker400]

Profound words!

Maybe ‘the last thing this world needs’ is another ego like yours

If there's a good thing coming out of this crisis is shaking out people like you out of the business.

[Meester proach]

I hate to say it, but we are three months into this pandemic. Nobody knows anything. Drawing conclusions if this will be over by easter or in five years are pure beliefs. And personally I advise anybody believing and thinking about certain theories to look up a nearby church and not a cockpit.
History tells us that this could be over over quick (SARS/Swine-Flu) or last years (Gulf war/9/11). Of course, this situation is unprecedented. But at the same time, aviation is and has always been very dynamic and well known to adapt to the ****tiest of situations its been put to test on.

Fingers crossed, we'll all find a job again. The question is not if but when.

Regarding panic decisions like becoming a flight instructor. Ask yourself, do you, 1, want to instruct? Or do you, 2, only want to get flight hours? If only 2 is the case and 1 is the way of you achieving it. Please spare your money. The last thing this world needs, is another **** zero to hero atpl flight school instructor with 200 hours experience and the preset goal to piss off when he/she reaches 1500.
Fly skydivers, do banner towing, make friends pay for you taking them sightseeing. Do anything but becoming a crap flight instructor.

Fingers crossed for all of us :ok:


Not all 200 hr flight instructors are , as you so eleoquoently , put it “ **** “. Various flying schools had schemes up and running for years with this self improved route in mind and they worked very well. It all comes down to motivation.

[lansen]

Not all 200 hr flight instructors are , as you so eleoquoently , put it “ **** “. Various flying schools had schemes up and running for years with this self improved route in mind and they worked very well. It all comes down to motivation.

I do fully understand and recognise the fact that there are a good bunch of flight instructors, that not necessarily do have a whole lot of experience themselves. My previous post was targeted on all those flight school alumni who see it as an easy way out. There's no job, why should i drop skydivers, so let's become a FI until things turn out the other way on the job market. It's not fair to the student who paid thousands of $€£ to have a mediocre self pity instructor by his/her side, that is only focused on the fact when he/she can leave that job. And yes, there are lots of these types of instructors on the market. Especially in the larger EASA type Zero to Hero "academies".

[Cistor]

I do fully understand and recognise the fact that there are a good bunch of flight instructors, that not necessarily do have a whole lot of experience themselves. My previous post was targeted on all those flight school alumni who see it as an easy way out. There's no job, why should i drop skydivers, so let's become a FI until things turn out the other way on the job market. It's not fair to the student who paid thousands of $€£ to have a mediocre self pity instructor by his/her side, that is only focused on the fact when he/she can leave that job. And yes, there are lots of these types of instructors on the market. Especially in the larger EASA type Zero to Hero "academies".

That's so true. And they so much don't want to be working where they are that you can smell it from every pore of their skin.

[portsharbourflyer]

I am not sure where some of the posters on here originate from, but bear in mind in the UK there must be about 2 companies may be 3 that do banner towing, probably about 2 maybe 3 companies that do scenic fights on an A to A AOC, Aerial photography was nearly killed off by the drone operators, so opportunities for hour building out side of instructing are quite limited. To add banner towing isn't for low timers, most companies still need 500 hours for insurance and the same applies for a lot of para drop operations.

The choice for many will be just as it was in the post 9/11 era, choose a very expensive pay to fly scheme or instruct in attempt to keep some degree of currency.
Everyone who qualified in recent years (2015-2019) has seen an unrealistically high level of recruitment and for as long as many have known it the normal situation was that finding a job was a lengthy expensive process, and for a reasonable number it didn't happen.

However I can already see that Eaglejet are advertising pay to fly schemes has ramped up again, another agency offering a 30000k for an old Saab 340 rating (effectively pay to fly again).

So at worse this will be no worse than it was in 2004.

[eimin]

I am not sure where some of the posters on here originate from, but bear in mind in the UK there must be about 2 companies may be 3 that do banner towing, probably about 2 maybe 3 companies that do scenic fights on an A to A AOC, Aerial photography was nearly killed off by the drone operators, so opportunities for hour building out side of instructing are quite limited. To add banner towing isn't for low timers, most companies still need 500 hours for insurance and the same applies for a lot of para drop operations.

The choice for many will be just as it was in the post 9/11 era, choose a very expensive pay to fly scheme or instruct in attempt to keep some degree of currency.
Everyone who qualified in recent years (2015-2019) has seen an unrealistically high level of recruitment and for as long as many have known it the normal situation was that finding a job was a lengthy expensive process, and for a reasonable number it didn't happen.

However I can already see that Eaglejet are advertising pay to fly schemes has ramped up again, another agency offering a 30000k for an old Saab 340 rating (effectively pay to fly again).

So at worse this will be no worse than it was in 2004.

I disagree. I am a half full type of person, but...
9/11 grounded, only in US, the fleet for 3 days. The price paid afterwards wasn’t recovered until a decade later, consolidation and quick rebound after 2012/13.

Now, what we have, is a totally different scenario. Uncharted, uncertain and surely challenging. No one has the answers as to how the outcome is going to look like. But something that at this stage we can’t deny: this, for aviation, is much much worse than 9/11 ever was.

[kpd]

I disagree. I am a half full type of person, but...
9/11 grounded, only in US, the fleet for 3 days. The price paid afterwards wasn’t recovered until a decade later, consolidation and quick rebound after 2012/13.

Now, what we have, is a totally different scenario. Uncharted, uncertain and surely challenging. No one has the answers as to how the outcome is going to look like. But something that at this stage we can’t deny: this, for aviation, is much much worse than 9/11 ever was.

Clearly we have to be hopeful and half full sounds good but-
well the head of IMF probably knows more than most of us and she in a speech today said-
https://www.imf.org/en/News/Articles...Curtain-Raiser (https://www.imf.org/en/News/Articles/2020/04/07/sp040920-SMs2020-Curtain-Raiser)

"First, let’s look at where we stand. We are still faced with extraordinary uncertainty about the depth and duration of this crisis.

It is already clear, however, that global growth will turn sharply negative in 2020, as you will see in our World Economic Outlook next week. In fact, we anticipate the worst economic fallout since the Great Depression."

This can't be good for aviation or for any of us!! Clearly people planning training have to make their own decisions but this is a stark message and predicted worse than 9/11 with only some recovery in 2021.

[Mrpeewee]

FI you build explore no doubt

its a waste of time

[Pinuz89]

In my opinion, instructing is a great job, other than a great experience, for those who really want it.
I had loads of FIs really passionate about their job, and some others not.
useless to say that flying with the latter has been as hassle.

In other words do it if you really like it.

Anyway I'm still not 100% convinced if airlines are interested in extra 500h on piston aircrafts, rather than hours on type.

[covec]

Avoid the UK.

New CV19 epicentre.

BREXIT.

Scottish independence?

Re-united Ireland?

Great times...

[truckflyer]

Avoid the UK.

New CV19 epicentre.

BREXIT.

Scottish independence?

Re-united Ireland?

Great times...

Get some grip of reality, besides Covid pandemic, which by the way is WORLD WIDE, all the rest does not matter.

EU is about to disintegrate now after this Pandemic, and will be happy to make a good deal with the UK, as in the end Brexit is nothing compared to this Pandemic. Opposition to the EU is growing in Italy, an expect soon an ItaExit fight.

[wiggy]

EU is about to disintegrate now after this Pandemic, and will be happy to make a good deal with the UK,

Ahh....thanks for the laugh.... Good to see the "EU need us more than we need them"..."BMW will force the German Government to make a deal..." brigade haven't lost their sense of humour...

[portsharbourflyer]

The following two articles may suggest Truckflyers statements are not unfounded concerning the EU.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/may/15/majority-of-europeans-expect-end-of-eu-within-20-years

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/04/10/eu-agrees-470bn-coronavirus-bail-out-deal-italy-warns-bloc-could/

Now when the Guardian is publishing articles like that it surprises me, or maybe the Guardian isn't so left wing pro-EU as I thought.

[truckflyer]

Having just replied to your narrow-minded reply on another thread Truckflyer, I am disappointed in myself that I too have fallen into your comfort zone of creating a vivid image of another person’s character.

When I read your post I began to imagine a bigoted, anti-EU, red-faced middle class male baby-boomer. Sat on a metaphorical perch preaching the imaginary benefits of Brexit with scant regard, or knowledge, of how it may affect people outside of your comfort zone, i.e. the perceived challengers to your security.

But then I remembered that it is dangerous to make assumptions. I’m sure that you, like all airline pilots, spend more than sufficient time considering how you may be able to use your experience to help the next generation, regardless of your biases.

For your information, I am not even a Brexiter, not that's any of your business.
"help the next generation" - pardon me, do you need to have everything given on a silver plate for you? It's hard work, and so far I have met less than a handful of Captains that are as you describe, so I am drawing my own conclusions on the drivel you have been writing.

Maybe they job was not what you expected, tough, get over it and move on.
Remember the grass is rarely greener on the other side.
And to say "help the next generation" - if you are nice and friendly without any preconceived attitude you might discover most are very helpful, however your post clearly does not give me the impression that you are one of those.

If so maybe change you attitude, get the chip of your shoulder, and discover that you are not skygod, just because you have few hours on a commercial aircraft and where you think everyone else is to blame for your misfortune.

You feel you are above working for companies such as Ryanair and Wizz, what an arrogant attitude. What makes you think that you deserve better than the rest of us have gone through before we get better jobs?

I leave it with a copy and paste of your post, which actually tells me no need to waste more time on you, with that attitude you will never make it in this business, one word of advice, the aviation industry is much smaller than you might imagine.

From one of your previous posts on another thread: (the1917 wrote:)
"To spend between £50k and £100k to gain employment with Ryanair may be attractive to many aviation enthusiasts.
Aviation enthusiasts also become husbands, wives and parents, if not already. As ‘exciting’ as it appears to rotate in a 737, invariably the interest wanes on the fifth shift of the week when the family are struggling to cope in a foreign country.
The reality is that we all train to fly and hope for a dream life in skies, to eventually discover that it is the worst job of anybody in our respective social groups."

[truckflyer]

The following two articles may suggest Truckflyers statements are not unfounded concerning the EU.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/may/15/majority-of-europeans-expect-end-of-eu-within-20-years

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/04/10/eu-agrees-470bn-coronavirus-bail-out-deal-italy-warns-bloc-could/

Now when the Guardian is publishing articles like that it surprises me, or maybe the Guardian isn't so left wing pro-EU as I thought.

Just to make it clear, I am not a Brexiter, however Brexit now might actually make sense, as there will massive problems within the EU after this. After this pandemic, there will be no stomach to fight a massive battle for Brexit by the EU, as they will be happy to get a deal in place to start repairing the continent after the disaster and chaos the Pandemic have created.

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2020-04-10/italy-will-struggle-to-sell-this-eu-deal-at-home

https://hub.jhu.edu/2020/04/10/matthias-matthijs-european-union-covid-19-response/

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-52224838

https://www.forbes.com/sites/isabeltogoh/2020/04/09/risk-of-failure-is-real-italys-pm-warns-that-the-coronavirus-pandemic-could-break-the-european-union/

[bluewhy]

Just to make it clear, I am not a Brexiter, however Brexit now might actually make sense.

That's the Brexiter's way to come out as a Brexiter.

[truckflyer]

That's the Brexiter's way to come out as a Brexiter.
Not to steal your thunder, but I am from EU country.

EU have not handled this crisis very well, every country have been left to fend for themselves. Kind of defeats the object, however let's not make this into another EU/Brexit debate.

The main message now is delay, delay, save you money for now until we know more.

[Pilot2/b]

Rumours circulating that Wizzair are about to make 265 Airbus pilots made redundant...

[r10bbr]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8216725/Wizz-Air-says-provide-2020-guidance-plans-job-pay-cuts.html

[Hawker400]

Rumours circulating that Wizzair are about to make 265 Airbus pilots made redundant...

Sadly not a rumour anymore.

[glamorousbanter]

am on my way to get my licenses as well, though the situation might seem hopeless the aviation industry will come back once the pandemic is over.

[CAT3C AUTOLAND]

drisssouid,

I must admit I haven't read all the responses to your thread, however I would like to make a few comments.

I have been a pilot since 1995 and have seen the gulf war, the attacks on the world trade centre, the financial crisis and now COVID 19. There is always a question of the best strategy, to tackle this mission of becoming a pilot.

One of the issues we all face when we decided to embark on the mission of flying for a living is the ups and downs of the industry. Sadly, some people fail to think this through properly when they decide to part with large sums of money and don't have any sort of contingency plan in place. Like in any industry, once you have graduated, whether it be from a modular course or an integrated course, the bottom line it is down to you to find your own employment.

You mentioned you are in a very bad position. Well to put a positive spin on that, I would say you are in a very good position, you have done the hard work and become a professional aviator, so your career is just beginning and that is an achievement in its own right. Now COVID is a situation we are ALL dealing with, myself included and it just happens to be apparent when you are seeking employment and of course no one could have predicted that. There are plenty of pilots that popped out the end of their courses and were faced with a major downturn, myself included in and out of the airlines.

I have had an airline career and also have a lot of experience as a light aircraft, a multi crew, MPL and Jet Orientation instructor. Personally, sharing skill with other pilots, instructing is a great way to improve yourself, develop and help others. Its important to realise and I think it has been mentioned you have to have the passion and want to instruct otherwise you will most likely resent it. I was a full time light aircraft instructor for 2 years and a year part time and loved it, it was one of the most enjoyable jobs I have had.

What ever you decide, its important you keep current, don't let all that hard work go to waste and end up in a situation where you get rusty or god forbid have to do your ATPL exams again.

From an economical point of view, yes, potentially its looks bleak right now, but everyones opinion on that is purely speculation, no one knows what will happen. Yes its unprecedented, however no matter how long it takes, it will get better.

I saw a lot of ups and downs in my quest to become a pilot, but got there in the end. I have said this before on PPRUNE, once you get there, flying for a living is a wonderful job if you have the passion for it.

All the best.