seniority lists discussion..... Again!

[flyhigh55]

I know this has been beaten to death in the past , however....

Could we use this moment in time to rethink if we as a pilot group should abandon seniority lists.

Any pilot right now has job uncertainty, from the majors to the smallest airline. Thinking your safe in any airline right now would be naive.

If lots of pilots end up being “available” , then when the industry picks back up again it would be logical that you could apply to your experience level in any new or old airline.

[Chris2303]

I know this has been beaten to death in the past , however....

Could we use this moment in time to rethink if we as a pilot group should abandon seniority lists.

That's a huge step since the concept goes right back to the beginning of commercial aviation. Earnest K Gann wrote frequently about it for instance

[aerodestination]

To fire someone based on the spot of the seniority list is some form of discrimination and normally age discrimination is the most obvious one.

I think most airlines would like to fire the top end of the seniority list based on their salaries that are often about 4 to 5 times as high as a junior FO including pension payments. So in that case you have to fire 4 or 5 FOs in order to retain the same amount of cash compared to someone who will be retiring in a few months time.

I don't think it's gonne be a case of just following the 'last in first out' rule. It's gonne be more about salaries and the fleet you are currently flying. Looking at the early retirement of the 74's for example. Re-training onto a different aircraft type is expensive as well.

It's going to be messy for the upcoming few years and jobs will be lost, but again I don't think the seniority list will be the main thing for job losses.

[Mach E Avelli]

Airlines won’t have the financial or training capacity to observe strict seniority reinstatement. With some fleets and crew bases shut down, regrettably aircrew on those fleets and bases will be sacrificed.
However, there is a strong case for seniority within a base/fleet to be the basis for re-employment. I can’t think of any other way that would be fair.

[Fluke]

Great time to get rid of all airline HR departments or at least retrain them to some productive service area. 😊

[NoelEvans]

That's a huge step since the concept goes right back to the beginning of commercial aviation. Earnest K Gann wrote frequently about it for instance
And Earnest K Gann had nothing good to say about it, all that time ago.

[Chris2303]

And Earnest K Gann had nothing good to say about it, all that time ago.

I didn't say the concept was a good one.........

[NoelEvans]

I know, I'm just helping to add information.

[The Banjo]

Seniority is by no means perfect however..
As pilots we make many decisions that non flying managers do not like or understand. Some of those decisions cost a lot of money (in the short term) and interrupt schedules. Carrying adfitional fuel, writing up an unserviceability at a port with no engineering coverage (as regs require), refusing an aircraft with multiple MEL's, diverting due weather, calling fatigued.
Often seniority will limit management to target individuals who are perceived as trouble makers. It can give us the confidence to do our job well without fear or favour.

That is a good thing.

[cactusbusdrvr]

Anyone who thinks getting rid of seniority is a good idea is not vey senior themselves.

Typical selfish reactions to not getting their way when they want it. Same people who want to pay someone for a job so they can avoid actually having to work hard to get a coveted position.

[Jumbo2]

Either that or they elected to stay at a non seniority airline, generally to advance their career a fair bit quicker, and now feel entitled to leapfrog all those who did make the jump early in their career knowing how the system works at the bigger airlines. Having worked for both and did make the jump early in my career, I prefer the seniority based system where things are done on merit and not on things you might have achieved elsewhere.

[FlyingStone]

Very few other professions have seniority, for a very good reason.

Will a doctor with 30 years experience have to start as an intern, just because they decide to move to a different hospital?

Why should an airline captain with 30 years experience start as a second officer, just because they move to another city/country/airline?

[Jumbo2]

I doubt (rightly so) things will change with regards to airlines using seniority systems. Just to ask a counter question, why should a skipper who got her/his command after 3 years of SH flying be able to jump above somebody who has been a FO for 16 years flying SH and LH with thousands of hours under her/his belt who just hasn't got her/his command because people generally stick with his career airline?

There is no fair system. However from the moment anybody joins the aviation word all the facts are out there. Some choose to join a stable legacy career airline with a seniority system, some choose to only fly regional props because they live close to base, some choose to fly flow fares or happy holiday people because they don't want to be a number and they love the smaller bases. All these come with risk and benefits. The risk if you join a charter company is it might not last you until the end of your career and you could end up seeing a bankruptcy when you are in the twilight of your career. Joining the legacy career airline you know you won't be a training captain as fast as the person choosing the charter company but you are much more likely to see your retirement with that airline.

This discussion will always be returning. The pilots working for a seniority system defending it and the pilots who have come to realise they made the wrong career path choice criticising it.

[macdo]

The first casualty if you lose the Seniority system will be your sense of any job security, for all of your career.

Beware of what you wish for...

[Trossie]

... Some choose to join a stable legacy career airline with a seniority system ...

The first casualty if you lose the Seniority system will be your sense of any job security, for all of your career.

Beware of what you wish for...
TWA, Eastern Airlines, Pan Am, Swissair, SABENA. All 'legacy career airlines'. All with seniority systems. How was job security with them?

Earnest Gann has been mentioned. He got out of the airline industry when he saw, as a senior pilot in his airline how unfair the system was on people, not on their own choices or decisions but entirely on the decisions of those in management or the quirks of business at the time.

If you are determined to have a seniority system then you must accept that you go to the very bottom of the pile, no matter what experience you have or what post you hold if through some quirk that you have no control over whatsoever, for example a major international financial crash, major terrorist incidents, a world-wide pandemic, etc. That means a training captain with 15,000 hrs+ and 25 years in that airline (for example) has to become a junior first officer. That is just stupid. For a start, a waste of talent and experience. And will he get a job as a junior f/o? Or will he be considered potentially too much of a CRM risk with junior captains?
Beware of what you wish for...

[clvf88]

The first casualty if you lose the Seniority system will be your sense of any job security, for all of your career.

Beware of what you wish for...

Why?

There is what I deem to be a rather delusional attitude among some of the large UK seniority based airlines that redundancy will be from the bottom of the list up.

Putting aside the legal implication of such a system, it would cost the company a fortune to employ such a method; in a time when they are trying to achieve the exact opposite. I just can’t see it.

[macdo]

Trossie

I didn't say it would stop airlines going broke. That happens whatever system you go for.

A seniority system isn't perfect, your second point is valid in that it both discourages and penalises pilots that want to move airlines. But, to balance that, it provides a stable basis for a long term career in which there are few options of advancement. Fo-Capt-Training Capt (plus a few bolt ons for management roles for the very few). IMO it also motivates pilots to band together and work for a common cause, the protection of their status and bank balance. Very very few things motivate pilots (once they are in their shiny jet) other than protection of their T&C's. A dog eat dog system bring out the worst.

[macdo]

Why?

There is what I deem to be a rather delusional attitude among some of the large UK seniority based airlines that redundancy will be from the bottom of the list up.

Putting aside the legal implication of such a system, it would cost the company a fortune to employ such a method; in a time when they are trying to achieve the exact opposite. I just can’t see it.

Not delusional, it has been tested and slightly modified to address the m/f imbalance that still exists. Still legal in the UK last I looked.

The benefit is for the pilots not the airline. That's the point.

[3Greens]

challenge it then! Why do you think perhaps that it’s not been challenged yet?
the most litigious country in the world (USA) still seem to have seniority within their major airlines. From where I sit in my armchair, my legal opinion is that it’s clear there isn’t a case to answer. Seniority is another word for loyalty in the legal world, and it’s been shown under U.K. case law that rewarding employees based on loyalty is in fact legal (or more accurately not illegal). See rolls Royce vs Unite the union for the case i refer.
You are (wrongly) making the assumption that seniority is age discrimination when it is crystal,clear it is not. There are pilots at BA that joined at 20 years old that are mega senior but still much younger than DEPs that joined post military service. How would you square that circle?
the merits and pitfalls of a system will be debated long after Corona is a distant memory, but I bet my pension there’s no legal challenge (who would even bring a case anyway?) in my lifetime.
remind me how the 65 mandatory retirement for pilots legal challenge went...

[dirk85]

I was speaking with a Balpa rep not long time ago and in the main offices they are terrified that someone one day will challenge the seniority system is certain airlines, because they know the chances are high it would not hold up in court.

[RexBanner]

Flybe when financially stressed in 2013 went for redundancies by fleet and by seat (also by base) with a matrix system where seniority was the dominant (but not overarching) factor. This was because they were told by lawyers that pure LIFO was “legally unsafe” (to use their words). I would suggest that the more important point for them was that this also allowed them to minimise their retraining bill. I have absolutely no doubt that this is how any European airline with multiple fleets and bases is going to play it and why, as a Gatwick pilot at BA, I’m absolutely crapping it right now.

[clvf88]

Not delusional, it has been tested and slightly modified to address the m/f imbalance that still exists. Still legal in the UK last I looked.

The benefit is for the pilots not the airline. That's the point.

I'm not fully up to speed on the law surrounding this, but lets assume you are correct and it is legal.

The reality is that, as you state, it benefits the pilots; in that it will cost the airline money. When they naturally do the opposite, whats our reponse? Do we really expect junior collegues to join strike action to have themselves made redundant?

[hec7or]

I prefer the seniority based system where things are done on merit and not on things you might have achieved elsewhere.

Assuming that the "merit" you possess is being time served and not your experience, ability and suitability

[excrab]

I was speaking with a Balpa rep not long time ago and in the main offices they are terrified that someone one day will challenge the seniority system is certain airlines, because they know the chances are high it would not hold up in court.

And they have been afraid of it for a long time. Rumour has it (because I wasn’t personally involved) that when Bmi baby made people redundant in 2008 ignoring the seniority list and the terms of the contract that all the pilots had signed Balpa refused to give legal aid to anyone wanting to challenge the company after the redundancies because they didn’t think they would win, and losing would set a precedent.

Under UK employment law it is a position which has to be no longer necessary. Let’s say, for example, that a Big airline wanted to shut its operation at airport G. It couldn’t make junior pilots at Airport H redundant and put more senior pilots from airport G into those positions as that would be against UK law. The only people it could make redundant would be the pilots at airport G whose positions no longer existed.

By all means (in the UK) have your seniority list for fleet changes, base changes, upgrades, training appointments etc etc but don’t expect seniority alone to protect you against redundancy. This is in the UK, and irrelevant to the USA, Europe, Australia or anywhere else.

[Jumbo2]

Can’t posters in this thread also include in their post if they are currently employed by a seniority based airline?

i can’t help myself think that those who work for a seniority based airline are in favour and those who aren’t and would love to join a seniority based airline are against it?

To kick off; I do work for a seniority based airline.

[dirk85]

It is relevant in most legislations I am aware of.
In my European country when you are talking redundancies there are three factors that need to be considered:

- family situation (having dependants put you in a better position, for obvious reasons)
- seniority
- company organizational needs (training, bases, roles, etc)

In no specific order.
There is room to negotiate with the unions, if present, but the law clearly state the criterias that have to be considered.

[clvf88]

Can’t posters in this thread also include in their post if they are currently employed by a seniority based airline?

i can’t help myself think that those who work for a seniority based airline are in favour and those who aren’t and would love to join a seniority based airline are against it?

To kick off; I do work for a seniority based airline.

Seniority based airline.

I'm not posting an arguement for or against; but questioning whether peoples faith in it with relation to redundancies is misplaced.

[FlyingStone]

i can’t help myself think that those who work for a seniority based airline are in favour and those who aren’t and would love to join a seniority based airline are against it

So the binary world you live does not include the odd chance that somebody honestly doesn't believe in seniority based systems?

[3Greens]

excrab

bmi was slightly different in that baby was a wholly owned subsidiary of bmi. It was deemed perfectly legal (but morally questionable imo) to make pilots redundant from baby that had many more years service than their peers in mainline.

[3Greens]

which airline and base was this? Which strike?

[excrab]

bmi was slightly different in that baby was a wholly owned subsidiary of bmi. It was deemed perfectly legal (but morally questionable imo) to make pilots redundant from baby that had many more years service than their peers in mainline.

True, but the redundancies in 2008 were about Bmi baby management ignoring the seniority list and making redundancies by seat and base within Bmi baby. Nothing to do with Bmi mainline.

[NoelEvans]

Seniority and 'final salary' pension schemes have always been the 'shackle' that have solidly bolted many pilots into airlines -- to the absolute delight of management!

Final salary pension schemes are one by one being shown to have feet of clay.

Seniority list should go the same way. Present circumstances should speed that up.

Two decades ago I was is one of the UK's major airlines, with a final salary pension scheme and half way up the seniority list. I left for a better lifestyle with those two factors being the most difficult decisions to break from. That airline no longer exists. My final salary pension savings are OK, but underfunded. The airline that I went to had a seniority list and a final salary pension scheme. After a few years there, and massive upheavals in the airline industry, I left again with lifestyle being the deciding factor. That airline no longer exists and the state of the final salary pension scheme has been the subject of articles in business sections of national newspapers (fortunately I did not have many years there). The airline that I next went to had no seniority list nor any pension scheme. I set up my own pension saving (and it has grown well, with only minimal decline over the past few months). The next airline that I joined (again for lifestyle) had a seniority list but final salary pension schemes were then 'out of fashion'. That airline no longer exists. Since then I have worked for two more airlines, one with no seniority system and the present one, well, I don't know, it doesn't bother me any more so I don't pay attention to that as I now have the best lifestyle that I have ever enjoyed in my airline career and the best job security. (As I have saved well more than normal for pensions for a long time, even the current upheavals have not been too bad and I am so thankful that I do not depend heavily on any final salary pensions.)

So, summing up: If I had gone by the mantra that "Seniority Is Everything", I would not be where I am now in a secure job with the best airline lifestyle that I've ever had. I am so glad that I broke from those shackles over two decades ago.

But let's look at this an entirely different way: We have many hundreds of pilots right now who have found their seniority counted for absolutely nothing. If they are employed by 'seniority based' airlines all their experience and expertise counts for nowt and they go to the bottom of the pile. Would I want our medical profession to be like that where a doctor moving from one Trust, District or whatever, has to go to the bottom of the pile and have his talents and experience count for nowt? If I need to see a 'senior' doctor it cannot be that one with that wealth of experience but has to be one who has simply 'been there longer'? What a horrible thought.

[parabellum]

]Earnest K. Gann has been mentioned.
Maybe wrong but I thought E.K. Gann expressed his opinion of seniority systems AFTER he became Number One at AA?

[Trossie]

Wrong.

It comes up constantly through "Fate is the Hunter" as being illogical. At the end of it when he flew with a co-pilot who was far more experienced than he was but was only in that seat because his airline had gone bust, Gann decided it was time to get out of the industry. (For those of us who enjoy reading, that was a good move.)

Where did you get the idea that Gann was Number One at AA?

[Daddy Fantastic]

Seniority has no place in the modern work force anymore and its right that it be scrapped around the world. All positions should be purely merit based regardless of DOJ, sex, gender, race etc.....Make ti so pilots can move easily around the world without fear. Seniority benefits companies far more than it benefits the pilots, time to get rid of it.

[dirk85]

And out of curiosity how do you demonstrate merit as a pilot? Number of diversions? Fuel efficiency? Days off flown? On time performance?
See my point? Not a huge fan of seniority myself but I can see how "merit" can be measured from the management side and I am not sure I like it.

[Fletch]

What airlines still use seniority based systems?

I would think these days there is enough seniority based airlines and non seniority based so that you can choose the one that floats your boat most.

[aerobatic_dude]

Many airlines in Europe use a seniority based system.

My previous carrier were a low cost carrier and they even ran a seniority list. Current employer have been in existence over 80 years and run with a seniority list. My own feelings are its fair and transparent. I would not like to change it at all !

[clvf88]

I'm undecided.

Genuine question though. Lets assume you're now aged 50, a senior TRE within your company, with a family etc to support. Your company has issues and folds. You are now probably going to spend most the rest of your career with the next seniority based carrier as an FO, potentially earning a third as much money. Is that still fair?

[RexBanner]

Under UK employment law it is a position which has to be no longer necessary. Let’s say, for example, that a Big airline wanted to shut its operation at airport G. It couldn’t make junior pilots at Airport H redundant and put more senior pilots from airport G into those positions as that would be against UK law. The only people it could make redundant would be the pilots at airport G whose positions no longer existed.

That’s not strictly true, what you are describing is called transferred redundancy, or “bumping” as it’s commonly known. It is perfectly legal however it isn't always easy to justify so I don’t necessarily disagree with the likely outcome just be aware that it doesn’t always have to be the role rather than the person being made redundant.

[macdo]

I'm undecided.

Genuine question though. Lets assume you're now aged 50, a senior TRE within your company, with a family etc to support. Your company has issues and folds. You are now probably going to spend most the rest of your career with the next seniority based carrier as an FO, potentially earning a third as much money. Is that still fair?

While that seems a logical assertion, after the demise of seniority listed Thomas Cook last year, the vast majority of Captains who got jobs went directly into airlines as Captains. TRE/I's had even less problems as they were mostly lined up with multiple offers within a few weeks. The only Captains that I know of who went right seat were to Emirates on a promise of accelerated command. While some elected not to stay in the UK and went for jobs in various countries as CM1. Covid19, of course, has thrown this all into the air and how this happy picture will look in a years time is anyone's guess.

[clvf88]

True. But what saved the day was that there we're non-seniority based airlines for them to slip into (I know TUI technically is - though the above is at odds with a strict seniority system).

It would appear the current state of play in the UK allows those in a seniority system to 'have their cake, and eat it'. A strict system thats benefits them, and in case it all falls apart lots of non-seniority based companies to pick up the pieces. I'm not necessarily saying thats a bad system. If everyone went strict seniority that would cause issues both with the aforementioned redundancy issue, but also with future Ts & Cs in the removal of ones ability to 'vote with their feet'.

Again, I'm not pushing an agenda and remain undecided - its a complicated debate. Just thinking out loud.

[SaulGoodman]

Could we use this moment in time to rethink if we as a pilot group should abandon seniority lists.


Yes you could! It would be completely pointless though...

[Jumbo2]

Best answer in this thread.

For the UK I would be highly surprised if in my flying career, and I still have a looong time to go, I see Virgin or British Airways abandoning their respective seniority systems.

[FlyingStone]

While that seems a logical assertion, after the demise of seniority listed Thomas Cook last year, the vast majority of Captains who got jobs went directly into airlines as Captains. TRE/I's had even less problems as they were mostly lined up with multiple offers within a few weeks.
...
While some elected not to stay in the UK and went for jobs in various countries as CM1.

Now imagine every airline in the world ran a strict seniority system. For the captains who lost their job due to no fault of their own (bankruptcy), it would mean:

Back to the right seat.
With command times in many seniority-based airlines running at 15+ years, they would never see the left seat ever again.
Significant drop in salary for the remainder of their career.
Should their new airline get in trouble, they'd be laid off before a kid with 500 hrs despite they've probably got 15k hours (assuming LIFO).

And all this just because they weren't "smart" enough to predict the future economics of an airline they joined 30 years ago, and got laid off through absolutely no fault of their own.

Would that seem fair to you?

[Icanseeclearly]

Flying stone.

imagine the situation where an FO has been in a company for 5 years and is ready for command.

through no fault of his or her own a different company goes under. Your hypothetical Captain comes across and takes the command the FO has been waiting for.... it would mean

1. Remaining in the right hand seat
2. Maybe never getting command as they are leapfrogged by incoming captains.
3. Significant drop in salary because they have not been promoted
4 Should the airline go bust they lose their job before someone who has been in the company for 5 years less than them..

they have been disadvantaged through no fault of their own

does that seem fair to you?

[RexBanner]

For the UK I would be highly surprised if in my flying career, and I still have a looong time to go, I see Virgin or British Airways abandoning their respective seniority systems.

So let’s say if this gets really really bad and BA decided they needed to get rid of 50% of their pilots. You think they’re just going to chop the bottom 50% and be left with mostly a load of senior LH Captains and SFOs and then take the massive cost of retraining most of those pilots onto other fleets/seats? With all due respect, dream on.

[Jumbo2]

Flying stone.
With that same system:

A first officer 17 years in with his current Legacy airline with thousands of hours has got his command coming up.

A pilot who has only been flying for 4 years for a dodgy charter outfit which, after years of not making a profit, has finally gone bust. Luckily for him just before they go bust he manages to get his command.

The captain then joins the same Legacy airline and takes the command position which the first officer was promised.

The first officer has to wait another few years before a command comes up and has to hope the company can’t find any DEC and no other airline goes bust.

Would that seem fair to you?


Edited to say: I’ve seen more or less the above happen in other non seniority based airlines.

[Thumb War]

FlyingStone

From where do you get the expectation that life should be fair?

[clvf88]

The above mentioned merit of seniority is that its 'fair and transparent'. We are discussing seniority in this thread; and he is offering a counter-argument.

[2 Whites 2 Reds]

Anyone who thinks getting rid of seniority is a good idea is not vey senior themselves.

Typical selfish reactions to not getting their way when they want it. Same people who want to pay someone for a job so they can avoid actually having to work hard to get a coveted position.

what a load of utter s***

[3RDi]

Time Traveller is correct in what he says.

There is a scoring system used by the board to determine who is selected. I’ve heard this directly from the horse’s mouth.

Seniority is just one part of it. Don’t think you will be picked over someone with lesser experience because you’ve been around for donkeys years. The areas you’re scored on is vast.

[cessnapete]

Would one of you anti seniority ladies or gentlemen please, tell me the “fair” and transparent criteria you would use to measure “merit” for promotion, leave, pay etc.
How would your criteria for example, measure where on their present list of pilots, you would slot in, if you move into a new company?

[clvf88]

You don't slot in anywhere as there is no 'list'. You join in the role you are offered and probably applied for (SO, FO, CPT etc). I'm sure you must have some awareness of how these things work in other non-seniority operators so I'm not going to waste time explaining.

Whether its fair or not is debatable (as is the idea of time in the company being the sole determinator of everything) - I'd lean towards the idea its fairer. Transparency is a real issue, however.

[Vessbot]

And out of curiosity how do you demonstrate merit as a pilot? Number of diversions? Fuel efficiency? Days off flown? On time performance?
See my point? Not a huge fan of seniority myself but I can see how "merit" can be measured from the management side and I am not sure I like it.

The sim grades your ILS, first out is the highest sum of the integrals of LOC GS and IAS deviations from FAF to DA :E

[Vessbot]

On the serious side, any system would be fair as long as it’s transparent and consistently applied and instituted from the beginning. Company seniority, national seniority, hell even worldwide seniority, what have you. Personally I’m a US pilot grown up in a ubiquitous company seniority culture, and that’s where my opinion currently lies. But I’m sympathetic to the arguments for a nationwide seniority system based on the doctor scenario, or the senior pilot whose airline went bankrupt and is starting over at year 1 scenario. I might be persuaded to a national seniority system to address those scenarios, but I’d have to do a lot more thinking if it was an actual possibility on the table instead of navel gazing.

However, given that company seniority already exists and pilots have already invested their lives into their company seniority under pre-agreed terms, someone moving into a position other than the bottom would severely violate that, for anyone junior to that position.

[MCDU2]

As someone who is sitting smack bang in the middle of a seniority list I think its just about perfect.

I think you should focus your efforts not on trying to throw your fellow pilots under the bus but ensuring that you are in a union and that you have agreements in place for rehire and that notional seniority is maintained whilst out in the wilderness so that you pick up where you left off as best as you can.

[there she blows]

Would one of you anti seniority ladies or gentlemen please, tell me the “fair” and transparent criteria you would use to measure “merit” for promotion, leave, pay etc.
How would your criteria for example, measure where on their present list of pilots, you would slot in, if you move into a new company?
where would YOU, in the current climate ask the Coronavirus to SLOT IN,
im a thinking you are from the dinosaur group, top doggie, now de funked group.
The very top of the covid 19 list.
Pretty intimidating for now

[SaulGoodman]

I have been made redundant...
I had to start all over again...
I had to relocate...
I had to take the pay cut...
I have been in your shoes...
Then to join a seniority based airline I had to to most of the above again...
Life is 60 percent choice and 40 percent luck...

Life is not fair....

[747-8driver]

I'm undecided.

Genuine question though. Lets assume you're now aged 50, a senior TRE within your company, with a family etc to support. Your company has issues and folds. You are now probably going to spend most the rest of your career with the next seniority based carrier as an FO, potentially earning a third as much money. Is that still fair?

Would it be fair if this person would join another carrier as captain and while doing so "steal" money from f/o's whose upgrade will be delayed by these direct entry captains?

[VariablePitchP]

where would YOU, in the current climate ask the Coronavirus to SLOT IN,
im a thinking you are from the dinosaur group, top doggie, now de funked group.
The very top of the covid 19 list.
Pretty intimidating for now

Is that ridiculous reply because you haven’t got an answer to the question? I’ll ask again for them, why don’t you tell us how would you decide? Quality of receipt photos when claiming expenses? Length of PAs given? Tightness of tie knot?

[clvf88]

Would it be fair if this person would join another carrier as captain and while doing so "steal" money from f/o's whose upgrade will be delayed by these direct entry captains?

Just being devils advocate; but its only stealing if one buys into the idea of seniority. Is it not more reasonable that the airline will look at their own internal upgrade candidates, and direct entry captains available at that point in time, and decide who is best suited / qualified for the role? This is how recruitment is done in most other professions - and everyones time will still come. It will also mean a more 'liquid' pilot group, which can only be good for terms and conditions.

I think this idea of fairness may also be a red herring. Surely whats important is not fairness, but whats most optimal for the airline / industry / employees. I think there would be a strong case there to argue that this would be a system where the most experienced pilots are placed in the most 'senior' positions.

[VariablePitchP]

Valid points, but every other industry has ways to assess and rank employees. Take a banker, how much did they make this year? Checkout worker, speed of checkouting. Police officer, quality of case write ups.

Pilots crash, or they don’t. How else do you assess them? Meritocracies can’t work when the only differentiator is what squadron mug you’ve got hanging up at home, which is the sort of selection that a flat system would (and does) predicate.

[bex88]

Cut to the chase......seniority. Everyone is talking about redundancy and who should take the hit.

Firstly there needs to be a legal matrix. It can be weighted towards seniority but not exclusively. Geographic cannot be challenged and it is the role that is redundant, not the person. Legally you can’t make a pilot redundant and then transfer another pilot into their role. Well certainly not without a challenge.

What can we do? Argue, point fingers, throw our colleagues under the bus? Maybe it would be better to try and protect everyone career. That is not the same as their income or job. Exhaust all part time working, unpaid leave, job sharing, voluntary redundancies or early retirements (with a incentive package, not just booting people out with < 5 years to go) If that is not enough then it’s on to redundancies. Redundancies come with a financial package. That is all well and good but what I would want to see is protection of these pilots careers. Measures should be built in that these pilots can return to their company on their original seniority and position as and when conditions allow.

I am concerned for my job but I am more concerned for my career. If ever we need to stick together it is now.

Seniority sucks, but I cannot think of a better system for fleets moves, promotion etc. You earn your chance for those, you then have to demonstrate you are capable.

[Fair_Weather_Flyer]

I worked for an airline that went from a seniority, promote from within culture to a “merit” and “experience” based system with a heavy focus on direct entry Captains. It wasn’t pretty and the people it often attracted were :-

​​- those who had been sacked from previous airlines for safety reasons, but rated and available now
- friends of managers from inside the airline
- friends of managers from outside the airline
- individuals that had lied about experience, qualifications and even one with a criminal conviction for perjury
- other airlines non-upgradable FO’s with bags of hours and a chain of failed upgrade attempts. These were made DEC’s or continued to fail upgrades

There were good guys too, but overall it was unsafe. I had been a Captain for that airline in the past but was demoted on moving from the turboprop to the jet. I just watched scary pilots appearing out of nowhere, whilst not getting a look in myself. Many long serving pilots left the airline to go elsewhere, to the bottom of a seniority list, like I did. My previous airline is now left with many pilots who will need constant management and will always be risky.

Seniority does ensure that the airline has to provide good training, give structure to careers and the airline has a chance to see the pilot performing well, prior to upgrade.

[Kit Sanbumps KG]

When I board a legacy carrier's aircraft, I worry about the occupant of the left seat. I worry he's there because his number came up and he scraped through, or had 'friends'. None of them are there solely because they're able.

I'm with Ernest Gann (and there's no better company to be in).

Seniority has ruined this profession. Meritocracy, in a properly run airline, is the way to go. There are crap outfits, like the one fair weather flyer refers to, of course, but every sphere of business has its dross.

[Trossie]

...

For the UK I would be highly surprised if in my flying career, and I still have a looong time to go, I see Virgin or British Airways abandoning their respective seniority systems.
Unless they also go the way of TWA, Eastern Airlines, Pan Am, Swissair, SABENA. All 'legacy career airlines'You never know in this industry. I bet the pilots in those airlines never knew too, until it was too late.

What is it with "Legacy airline" guys that they think they are so 'special'? When their airline goes bust (and see above, they are not immune), they are just the same as anyone else.

[back to Boeing]

Kit Sanbumps KG

In all airlines whether seniority based or otherwise you have to pass the command to get that left seat. My first airline did not have a seniority list. There were captains who were contractors who had no right to be sat in an aircraft let alone the left hand seat. There were captains who were in the right squadron so therefore “good eggs” or brownnosers who were absolute disasters to fly with and there were FO’s who because they had pissed off a certain senior manager would never even get in front of a command board.

I’m now relatively speaking junior in a seniority based airline with the best T’s and C’s of my career and everyone knows where they stand. I wouldn’t change a thing.

[Kennytheking]

clvf88

Of course it is stealing the F/O's position. When comparing your two candidates for the role, what criteria are you going to use? Hours?PIC Time? Psyco tests? If an airlines' internal candidates with thousands of hours on type, within the operation does not trump a guy from outside it would be a serious indictment of that airline's recruiting, training and pilot development models. The only reason to take a DEC is when you do not have any suitably qualified F/O's

Furthermore, where would any F/O ever get his upgrade from. Airlines do not generally recruit F/O for training into a DEC positions., so they are reliant on getting their command at the company where they are working. I guess just too bad if they keeping on filling the slots with guys from outside.

When you have 1000 pilots, what criteria would you use in a merit based system to order them for retrenchment?

And yes, I am at a large middle east carrier that uses seniority. I have been here a long time and I would not expect to jump any queues. If I choose to go to BA, I would expect to join at the bottom of their list.

[SADDLER]

I’m in the bottom third at my airline but despite that and however imperfect it may be, seniority list is the only way to go.

[VariablePitchP]

Lots of talk about fairness of a non-seniority system but none how would it actually be played out.

Imagine you are looking for captains...

Seniority airline: first in gets it. Done, that’s literally all there is to the process. How can it be any more transparent in any possible way. Might not like it, but it is transparent.

Non seniority airline: erm... make sure your mate is the trainer doing the assessment?? 🤷‍♂️

[FlipFlapFlop]

bex88

​​​​​​Spot on comment. Time for the pilot community to stick together. It is not just jobs at stake, but careers. For airlines that survive maybe even consider compulsory 50% contracts for all to start with alongside a commitment to increase for those that want it as recovery escalates. Job protection should be the priority for all.

[FlyingStone]

Lots of talk about fairness of a non-seniority system but none how would it actually be played out.

Imagine you are looking for captains...

Seniority airline: first in gets it. Done, that’s literally all there is to the process. How can it be any more transparent in any possible way. Might not like it, but it is transparent.

Non seniority airline: erm... make sure your mate is the trainer doing the assessment?? 🤷‍♂️

So there's no assessment before someone is placed on the upgrade course except that their number is up next? Some solution.

I worked for an airline that went from a seniority, promote from within culture to a “merit” and “experience” based system with a heavy focus on direct entry Captains. It wasn’t pretty and the people it often attracted were :-

​​- those who had been sacked from previous airlines for safety reasons, but rated and available now
- friends of managers from inside the airline
- friends of managers from outside the airline
- individuals that had lied about experience, qualifications and even one with a criminal conviction for perjury
- other airlines non-upgradable FO’s with bags of hours and a chain of failed upgrade attempts. These were made DEC’s or continued to fail upgrades


That's an indication of a deep and systemic culture problem within an airline, rather than lack of seniority list.

Any sensible airline will always promote from within where possible, as training department will have had complete oversight into candidate's training history and the candidate would already have time on type, SOP knowledge, route experience, works of the company etc. DECs are always a bit of a wildcard.

[srjumbo747]

Nearly every pilot in the U.K. over sixty thought, twenty years ago, that they’d be retired by now.

I’m afraid that a lot of these people ‘love their jobs’ too much and can’t give up flying much to the detriment of the younger folk. Also, they just can’t see how morally wrong they are.

I know loads of guys, who live abroad and have paid little or no tax, who have RAF pensions and still want to fly.

I am not saying how I feel about these people, (well I don’t like the lack of morals) I’m just highlighting the fact.

Good luck to everyone.

[Lapon]

All positions should be purely merit based regardless of DOJ, sex, gender, race etc.....Make ti so pilots can move easily around the world without fear

This sounds like the sort of thing an HR graduate would say :rolleyes:

Explain exaclty how a merit based system would work.

I'm in an airline of thousands of pilots and by definition of us doing our jobs properly we should all be doing everything the same way. Nobody should be doing anything better or worse as we ought to following the same script.
Check scores are subjective and depend on the checkie as much as the student, fuel burns and OTP matrix? Forget it as too much is outside our control.

I've worked under both systems, and both have pros and cons. The larger the organisation the more relevance seniority has because it solves a problem no other system can.. Transparency

[Superpilot]

If seniority is the fairer system right now, but by the end of this world disaster over half of us have lost our jobs (I.e redundancy), what then?

With the critical mass of the pilot community finding itself with no way to earn the same money in aviation ever again, will it still be true that seniority served its purpose?

Like unabated, relentless capitalism, the perceived benefits of seniority collapse within the setting of a world wide disaster. Some will get lucky, most won't.

[Lapon]

With the critical mass of the pilot community finding itself with no way to earn the same money in aviation ever again, will it still be true that seniority served its purpose?

Unfortunatly this probably will happpen and seniority will neither have served or failed in its purpose. A seniority system can rarely cater for every black swan event such as we are witnessing, and every seriority system has its own unique differences. Obviously an airline collapses entirely then that system is no longer relevant, but those in the junior ranks of surviving airlines will at least enjoy some protection and why shouldnt they.

I dont think that seniorty is a fantasic system, but its better than any alternative (especially if your airline is large and/or progession is slow).

[Trossie]

Nearly every pilot in the U.K. over sixty thought, twenty years ago, that they’d be retired by now.

I’m afraid that a lot of these people ‘love their jobs’ too much and can’t give up flying much to the detriment of the younger folk. Also, they just can’t see how morally wrong they are.

I know loads of guys, who live abroad and have paid little or no tax, who have RAF pensions and still want to fly.

I am not saying how I feel about these people, (well I don’t like the lack of morals) I’m just highlighting the fact.

Good luck to everyone.

What a pompous Post!

Twenty years ago all pilots thought they would be on much better pensions than they can expect now. Many will need to work to recover from the hammering that their pensions have had, especially with this present debacle. (Have you looked at what has happened to pension savings over the past six weeks?)

But do you care about that, or just your selfish self? (Well, I don't like your lack of morals.) I'm just highlighting the fact.

[SaulGoodman]

If seniority is the fairer system right now, but by the end of this world disaster over half of us have lost our jobs (I.e redundancy), what then?

With the critical mass of the pilot community finding itself with no way to earn the same money in aviation ever again, will it still be true that seniority served its purpose?

Like unabated, relentless capitalism, the perceived benefits of seniority collapse within the setting of a world wide disaster. Some will get lucky, most won't.

It will never happen. Pointless discussion

[srjumbo747]

What a pompous Post!

Twenty years ago all pilots thought they would be on much better pensions than they can expect now. Many will need to work to recover from the hammering that their pensions have had, especially with this present debacle. (Have you looked at what has happened to pension savings over the past six weeks?)

But do you care about that, or just your selfish self? (Well, I don't like your lack of morals.) I'm just highlighting the fact.
Trossie, looking at your other posts it seems that your glass is only ever half full and you enjoy a bit of a rant but thank you for your comments.
Just throwing this suggestion out there... why just not take the retirement age worldwide down to 63?
Merely a discussion point and, would it help?

[greybeard]

If there is an afterlife in Aviation when we so called eradicate this virus.
Whether we have a seniority list or rampant favoritism/brown nosing it will not really matter, the employers will shaft you, your so called mates from your Company or any other one will shaft you.

Pilots are a savage greedy bunch if not contained. by a transparent system, beware all on individual contracts as history will tell you

[Sick]

When hiring starts again, it would seem fair to differentiate where the applicant came from before - If from a non-seniority airline, then a role commensurate with experience ... if formerly of a seniority airline, then a starter level position. Karma.

[parabellum]

Just a reminder that when many of us started out on our aviation career the retirement age in the UK was 65, yes 65. The age was reduced to 60 quite arbitrarily and without any discussion between government, employers or the people most affected, the pilots. After years of campaigning we got the age lifted back to its correct place, 65, (sadly too late for me!). . For me 63 would have been enough and those extra three years would have made a lot of difference.

[Lapon]

When hiring starts again, it would seem fair to differentiate where the applicant came from before - If from a non-seniority airline, then a role commensurate with experience ..

A romantic notion for sure, but why does the next FO off the upgrade rank deserve to be penalised for it? The 'applicant' has never actually contributed a thing to the airline before by definition.

Furthermore, how does that FO ever get an upgrade to match the 'commensurate' experience. We all started somewhere remeber.

[Sick]

Yeah, for sure - I was going to add "so far as is possible/vacancies permit" but kept it short.

[Asturias56]

Seniority lists are a very real oddity in the modern world - but then so is the job TBH

very few jobs require exactly the same level of performance every day for the whole of your career. And even fewer that you perform the same tasks with a different set of workmates every day

The possibilities of promotion (in the normal business sense) are very very few and most people don't even want to manage others (outside the cockpit)

The companies don't want a work force that has a range of abilities - they want one where everyone has IDENTICAL abilities as far as possible

If people are happy with seniority I guess it's as good a way as the next to manage a weird situation

[36050100]

What exactly is "retirement age" anyway?

Licence privileges currently allow for commercial operations (aerial work type stuff notwithstanding) up until age 65.

Governments change state pension age to suit themsleves. When I started my career, state pension age for a man was 65. (At the time, licence privileges allowed commercial operations to age 60). For a woman it was 60. For me now though it's 66.75! My wife has seen a more drastic change.

Company pension schemes have had ages at which "full" benefit is available at some notional age anywhere between 55 and 65, and is subject to change by negotiation with the employees. Legislation passed by various UK governments over the last 10-15 years have though made the Company retirement age somewhat of a variable. An individual can take pension benefits on reaching age 55. The employer can't compel an individual to leave the Company on reaching some arbitrary age (due to Age Discrimination legislation). Only loss of licence privileges at 65 are the backstop. One thing is generally true though (subject to financial markets), the longer you pay in to your pension for, and the longer you leave it before taking benefits, the more valuable it will be.

Contracts of employment which referred to a retirement age have been trumped by more general legislation. Some folks got lucky, others maybe not so.

What individuals have to grasp is that "retirement" is now a much more fluid concept than it used to be.

Edited to add:

My company doesn't exist any more. However, over the last 10 years or so hardly anyone "retired" because they had reached their 60th birthday. It was usually some event like fleet retirement/base closure/medical issue/divorce/bereavement etc that prompted them to leave the company. Sometimes they were already over 60; usually not. Sometimes they put their company pension in to payment, sometimes not straight away. Sometimes they got another job, sometimes commercial flying, occasionally something else.

I think I can say though that no one left so that they would create a vacancy for a younger person...

[wisecaptain]

There will be senior pilots who have led "interesting" lives , whom will need to keep filling their bank accounts for ex-wives and/or second ,third families etc etc .
They wont see why they should sacrifice their rights over their income just for a more junior crew to keep theirs do you ??

[Trossie]

...
Just throwing this suggestion out there... why just not take the retirement age worldwide down to 63?
Merely a discussion point and, would it help?
That sounds like a comment from a greedy first officer who wants older pilots out of the way so the HE can get that left seat earlier.

Not a thought at all about how those older pilots are going to cope on the very much reduced pensions that will result (please just look at what has happened to pension savings so far this year before posting comments like that) and the three to four years minimum wait that they will now have before they even get a top-up with a state pension.

I do not like the morals of anyone thinking like that. So much for 'pilots sticking together for pilots' that we have heard mentioned here.

[parabellum]

Sadly, as has been in evidence for a while now, when the going gets tough pilots will eat their own young.

[Vessbot]

When hiring starts again, it would seem fair to differentiate where the applicant came from before - If from a non-seniority airline, then a role commensurate with experience ... if formerly of a seniority airline, then a starter level position. Karma.

Nowhere in your schadenfreude satisfaction scenario do you address the effects on pilots at the receiving airline who would end up junior to the "commensurate experience" of the guy coming in above them. I mean you did say "if vacancies permit," but that's a handwave that doesn't explain anything. Permit what?

[NoelEvans]

Every airline that I have worked for (and it's been a few, see above) has taken on Direct Entry Captains. That has been airlines with seniority lists and airlines without seniority lists, When there have not been enough suitable (and that means minimum qualification and grades criteria), or willing (!!), pilots to promote then captains have been recruited from outside. Every single one of them has stopped recruiting Direct Entry Captains when there have been suitable pilots from within to promote.

So the argument that recruiting Direct Entry Captains 'deprives' the existing pilots of promotion has just not been true in every airline where I have worked. Regardless of them being 'seniority list' or 'non seniority list' airlines.

Airlines understandably want to promote from within first as those pilots are 'known quantities' and that has been the strong feeling in all those airlines. A proper process and transparency are what is needed for promotion and that has absolutely nothing to do with a "place on a list". Having a 'mate' in the sim putting you through the grades with a nudge and a wink is just as possible in a seniority list airline as it is in a non seniority list airline, just as the chance of some @rse with a grudge could block your chances in both (neither type of airline has any particular monopoly on those...).

So could those banging on about that non-starter 'issue' just look at reality and not your emotions.

And getting back to my comment about 'willing': I have know pilots in seniority list airlines, who were totally capable of promotion, not being willing to be promoted because their position on that seniority list enables them to have the sort of lifestyle that would be impossible for them if they took promotion. I haven't heard any of the seniority list proponents mention that!

However, I don't see this getting anywhere, both sides have already 'taken to the trenches' and many, many, many pilots' jobs will have to be lost before a victor emerges. (And I, personally, don't see the eventual victor as being the one using old fashioned methods in this 'battle'.)

[SaulGoodman]

Noel, totally agree. With a slight side note though. Some companies prefer to hire (type rated) DEC as they only need to train one person whereas if they promote from within they have to train two.

[Vessbot]

I think you’re conflating two lines of thought that are seemingly against the seniority system, but one of them isn’t, and is actually a part of it.

It’s perfectly sensible that there are minimum qualifications for upgrade, and if they are established and applied in a consistent and transparent manner (X hours total time, Y hours time in type, etc.) that is not only right, but necessary. And it may be that a junior pilot meets these quals before a senior one does, and therefore receives an upgrade slot first. Maybe even at the time of hiring, if the company training program includes that provision, in the case of DEC’s. However, the senior pilot who later meets the quals and takes an upgrade, would then be bidding above the junior pilot if they’re bidding at the same base, etc. (Also, the position on the list and the bid award determine the entry into upgrade training, which can then be passed or failed based on demonstrated aptitude. It’s a red herring that the seniority system disregards aptitude.)

That’s different from an ill-defined nebulous “meritocracy,” which would allow management to pick the winners and losers based on economy, nepotism, etc. under a fig leaf. It’s also different from someone entering at “commensurate experience” at a seniority level above pilots who have already been paying their dues at their company under the pre-agreed terms of their contract. And this is not right.

As far as people choosing to remain in the right seat, that’s an exercise of their option to bid anything their seniority level can attain (or less) based on the multitude of factors in their life. You say that seniority system proponents fail to mention that, but here it is; and I don’t see what part of our argument is undermined by it.

Also you note people’s entrenchment in their position, and it’s certainly human nature to be entrenched in argument positions, especially when they’re self-serving, and/or confirming of their biases. Like a senior pilot favoring seniority, or an unemployed pilot being against it. But I’m not so entrenched, and as I said before I’d be willing to honestly entertain a national seniority system vs. a company one, for example. But only if a way can be devised for the transition from one system to the other, that does not violate existing pilots’ contractual agreements!

[Lapon]

I’d be willing to honestly entertain a national seniority system vs. a company one,

That may have worked in the days of goverment owned airlines an regulation but not anymore.

How do you treat the pilots of a carrier with international basings, or pilots of a foreign carrier with a basing in your own country?
How is one eligible for seniority in this national system? Is it having a current licence of that nation? How does that system adress people holding multiple licences who may or may not be a national of that country anyway?

Does this system actually fix any problems that exist in the system we know today, or merely create new ones?

The only argument I really hear against traditional seniority systems is that it prevents 'senior' pilots from moving from company to company without penalty.
Unfortunately it is a zero sum game and someone has to cop the penalty. I dont believe it should be the existing staff at a given airline, but those against seniority obviously disagree as I'm sure it wouldn't affect them.

[parabellum]

When I did a course at Boeing, Seattle, I was told that in Pan Am, which was still alive then, it wasn't unknown for a senior first officer, based in Hawaii, bidding continually for either Pan Am 1 or Pan Am 2, both round the world flights, (one east bound and the other west bound), turn down the opportunity of a command as that would have been on a New York based 727, which didn't appeal!

[VinRouge]

That still goes on in other Majors. Plenty of career copilots knocking around the trade. To be fair, there are freezes in pay and salary rises after a certain number of years.

[back to Boeing]

If it comes to lifestyle vs money, most pilots I know (been in the industry a couple of years mostly longhaul) will chose lifestyle over money every single opportunity. I don’t know a single pilot in my company that either isn’t on the part time waiting list or seriously considering it.

so people deciding to be “career” FO’s isn’t that surprising in my book.

[VinRouge]

750 hours a year and no profit not looking too smart now.

[dirk85]

I dont see the strict relation between hours flown and profitability.
I haven’t flown more than 650 hours in the last many years, and the same most of my full time collegues, yet the company has been profitable every single year, including 2009 and 2001.

[AfricanSkies]

Is experience not roughly defined as total hours?
If Pilot A has more hours than Pilot B, he's more experienced, right?

This measure being adjustable for other helpful ratings such as TRI, TRE etc, and to an extent by command hours.

With the argument further up the thread regarding pilots being required to do identical jobs with identical performance in mind, and thus given that there are no variables, surely experience (and therefore seniority) can be mathematically calculated by formula?

Something like (thumbsuck here)

Experience = TT + (PIC/3) + (TRE*1000)

results of formula then defining where in new airline applicant fits in. If it's DEC above existing FO, then FO accepts DEC is more experienced. If it's FO below more experienced FO's, applicant accepts the existing FO's are more experienced.

If applied globally, would be a fair system.

[zero/zero]

750 hours a year and no profit not looking too smart now.

If 900hr, min rest rosters are the only way to make a profit then we might as well all pack up now

[SaulGoodman]

AfricanSkies

BS! TT is mostly irrelevant. Flying long haul you do more hours then ever before but stick time? What stick time? Military hours / Cargo mostly fly much less hours but to black hole destinations in the middle of nowhere with non precision approaches to the minima. ILS2ILS 900 hours says nothing. Same as TRI/TRE experience. Anyone can do that at CAE if they want low pay.

Just accept one company uses seniority while the other don’t.

[AfricanSkies]

We're talking about airlines here, not military. Ace stick time isn't part of the requirement. Varied long haul time is valuable in gaining situational (geographic, ATC, terrain, alternate etc) awareness. By this stage, we should all be able to do a NPA.

More hours...more experienced..is the general rule

[SaulGoodman]

whatever. It will not happen anyway.

[Lapon]

More hours...more experienced..is the general rule

1) Not all experience is created equal.

2) Not all experience is relevant to a particular operation.

Beyond about 3000-5000hrs, total experience is pretty irrelevant and the the following question is usually 'doing what?' The correct answer to that lies in the needs of that employer.

What is the big problem with company seniority that the anti camp think needs fixing after all this time?
Is it simply that you are prevented from job hopping, or are you genuinely of the opinion 'I bring more talent than an upgraded FO'? :rolleyes:

Every company seniority system has its differences, but the one thing they typically always have in common is that they give eligible FOs a shot at command before hiring DECs, hence the angle of my question.

[AfricanSkies]

Hi Lapon. Agreed about the type of experience. As this discussion concerns airlines, it's airline experience.

Valid points have been raised above. The ability to move airlines and not have to start at the bottom again has several advantages for pilots. Not only changing jobs for reasons such as geographic relocation but for better terms and conditions, which in turn forces the airlines to up their game in that regard.

Having key staff effectively stuck in an airline due to high seniority or simply by the prospect of losing a command if you change jobs is a HR managers dream.

HR also nowadays have more influence on Ops, and have determined that it's cheaper to hire DECs than it is to upgrade FOs.

If seniority was global, and derived from experience, the system would still serve its function, but by enabling free movement it would not hobble those it seeks to serve.

[BalusKaptan]

Don't even contemplate going down that path of no seniority list. I spent 5 years with a reasonably large airline (100+ aircraft) without a seniority list and you have never experienced the unsightly in-fighting and backstabbing trying to get a promotion ahead of others. So much was put on who you knew, your friendship/relationship with them and how deep you were prepared to stab the knife into your possible rivals back.

[Lapon]

The ability to move airlines and not have to start at the bottom again has several advantages for pilots

As mentioned it is a zero sum game. An advantage for one pilot is at the disadvantage of the next.

Seniority is a pilot initiative not an HR one.
If HR had thier way it would be yes men that get ahead, and the crusaders that have often fought for improvements to your conditions and causes would wither on the vine.

[QUOTE] HR also nowadays have more influence on Ops, and have determined that it's cheaper to hire DECs than it is to upgrade FOs [QUOTE]

Exaclty why seniority serves to protect those FOs that we once were ourselves.

[SaulGoodman]

the majority of airlines nowadays do not have seniority systems in place. So job hopping / moving for better T&C’s is already possible. So by your reasoning those airlines should have better t&c’s then the seniority based ones...

[FlightDetent]

S.G., do you think it is the seniority / unions laying the foundations for high wages?

[SaulGoodman]

The companies that have strong unions generally have seniority systems and better T&C’s.

[FlightDetent]

Neatly avoided.

[NoelEvans]

Right now, where are the 'high wages'?

[Lapon]

Depends on your definition of 'high wages', I prefer the term 'better T&Cs'. Of course there is always going to be an exception to the rule lying somewhere but in my part of the world it holds true.

[CCA]

Several post here argue the rules used in a current seniority based airline and apply those same rules to a non seniority based airline.

You can't, you have to use real world jobs that have established systems without seniority.

Pick any job that has a designated senior person in a dual or more role job. I guess an easy example would be a surgeon.

Surgeons would move around freely yet it doesn't mean junior surgeons never become senior does it? They through experience become senior. Saying an FO would never become a captain is simply not true because of so called leap frogging.

Abandon rank, we aren't in the military, simply be named or designated senior pilot and pilot, it puts an end to chasing command. Perhaps a course or some means would be used to show the surgeon or pilot has reached a level to lead the operation or perhaps the offer is given to be acting senior pilot several times. The more experience you have the more times you will be designated senior pilot.

The new surgeon/pilot to the hospital/company probably has a bedding in period before being set free too, perhaps they must fly to certain destinations prior to being approved to be designated senior pilot etc

The rest of the world functions perfectly well without seniority it's just a different system with different rules and we would need different rules and systems. Pay being an obvious one but again look to the current world systems for solutions.

20+ years - seniority based airline but I'm still with Ernest K. Gann when it comes to seniority.

[Lapon]

Pay being an obvious one but again look to the current world systems for solutions.

But how many specialised jobs types are there in the world where hundreds if not thousands of people are employed by one of a small number of companies doing a nearly indential job?

I would speculate there are more transport category jet pilots than orthopedic surgeons for example.
There are more probably more accountants than pilots, but there are equally more accountancy firms than airlines.
If there was a transparent way to job hop then sure, but as non-seniorty appointments (TREs etc) prove, its wishful thinking that it will be entirely merit based.

Abandon rank, we aren't in the military, simply be named or designated senior pilot and pilot, it puts an end to chasing command

The problem is that command is where the money is, and I for one have no interest in taking additional responsibility for the operation if there is no additional compensation... and I doubt the airlines will put everyone through a command course to merely designate day by day who is senior pilot / pilot.

I dont doubt airlines would continue to operate perfectly fine without seniority, but what a pain in the a#$% it would be as a pilot trying to navigate your way to career-life balance as the invisible goal posts change (speaking from a non seniority experience).

[SaulGoodman]

Again. I really don’t see the purpose of the discussion. There are hundreds of companies that do not have a seniority system. You can apply there if you don’t fancy seniority.

besides that I think it is extremely selfish to, now that you experience a crisis, think you could jump the que whereas there are plenty of guys / girls (myself included) who have been made redundant before and accepted to start at the bottom again. We have a few Thomas Cook guys who just did that...

[Lapon]

You are completely correct in that there are plenty of non seniority companies for the anti camp to work in.

I suspect the seniority based ones are typically the more desirable too for reasons unique to each individual.

As SG says, it's rather selfish to suggest another system is flawed because you cannot join it without penatly, regardless of your reasons for wanting to do so.

[3RDi]

Will you airline pilots be desperately trying to join a cargo airline or bizjet company now? Just to have a flying job or will you change careers? Interesting previous history on applications

[Daddy Fantastic]

I would take cargo over airlines any day, having done years of airline flying I can truly say Im over it and have no desire to go back. Having a family to support though means I would go back for their sake if I had no choice and a good opportunity arose.

All being equal though I would take cargo if given the choice.

[Lapon]

3RDi

No I'm not, I dont hold the pax airlines on a pedestal but they do suit my lifestyle. I would sooner persue the biz or cargo scene before changing career however. In the theme of the thread I would expect to start at the bottom of course.

[deltahotel]

A point of pointless pedantry. If you fly cargo, you work for an airline as much as if you fly pax.

[JW411]

My last airline was a cargo airline. I was there for 19 years and although it had its moments, it was an excellent job. We always did particularly well when the world was in crisis and it was so refreshingly hassle-free after many years of flying punters.

[3RDi]

Quite confident most crew that brought value to their company will have a job to go back to. Hope you score well on your evaluations. If not, all the best competing with cargo drivers. Trying your luck in business aviation is going to be difficult as you won’t be made captain should you be fortunate to be considered in the first place. If unless you have experience in this sector. It’s well known airline men/women don’t prefer bizjets and are not considered.

What alternative careers would you consider? Someone mentioned becoming a surgeon, for example

[Lapon]

Alternative careers would generally involve going to back to a previous line of work (aviation was a career change for me many years ago anyway), or persue a new interest if the the immediacy of a paycheck was not important.
Talking to most now redundant pilots I know (airline-pax) they intent to get back into it when things pick up in the months or years ahead. The only variation is what they will spend that time doing, and that is a function of thier own financial security at this moment in time.

[macdo]

Worth having a read of the various Wizz threads to see what life is like when the axe swings in an airline where you have no Seniority List and no Union to represent you. And it ain't over yet.

[GoldenGooseGuy]

I spent most of my airline career on reserve due to the position of hitting a hiring freeze first right after hire as FO, then shortly after upgrade to Captain. It was my experience that having seniority decide every single decision caused a vast disparity in lifestyle between top seniority pilots, who had 20 days off a month, and people who were stuck 2-leg commuting to reserve to outstation bases.

It created an unhealthy competitive atmosphere where every pilot was willing to step on someone else's situation hard in order to make theirs even a tiny amount better. I applied for Netjets after hearing from friends there who seemed much better treated. From what I understood, their system was much more balanced, as most pilots were on the same 7 days on, 7 days off system, but preferential schedule only shifted the days. That would have prevented ridiculous situations like mine, where I worked every weekend and holiday.

Pilots at Netjets were also provided revenue tickets to their bases, given they lived within a certain distance from a major airport. I felt this was a much better way to treat pilots than my airline, which displaced pilots after closing a base, but forced you to fend for yourself with nonrevenue flying.

After being in the corporate non-flying world for nearly as long as I was in flying (10 years flying, 9 corporate), no system is perfect, but the industry seems to be the prime driver of quality of life, followed by company culture. If you can find both of those, even a seniority system won't put you at a disadvantage if everyone is treated well.

[FlightDetent]

Worth having a read of the various Wizz threads to see what life is like when the axe swings in an airline where you have no Seniority List and no Union to represent you. And it ain't over yet. Worth trying to understand what it actually says there, albeit admittedly the popcorn is in the micro to see how seniority and LIFO are going to work for BA. History, forget, repeat.

[MCDU2]

And Norwegian.....Send us your CV via facebook so we can keep in touch when and if we rehire on new and exciting industry leading T&Cs.

[cessnaxpilot]

TWA, Eastern Airlines, Pan Am, Swissair, SABENA. All 'legacy career airlines'. All with seniority systems. How was job security with them?

Earnest Gann has been mentioned. He got out of the airline industry when he saw, as a senior pilot in his airline how unfair the system was on people, not on their own choices or decisions but entirely on the decisions of those in management or the quirks of business at the time.



actually... he didn’t like that he was junior, so he left and went to the airlift command. And after the war when he returned, he didn’t like his number and so he left to a new upstart to become its number 2 pilot. When that failed he went to another upstart and at the bottom complained that he’s in the right seat.

in each of those cases there were pilots who spent years building the airline and their seniority. How right is it to try and bypass that system and cut in line?

At the point that you’re safe and professional, the difference in piloting skills become less important. Do you want an airline that promotes the guy/gal with no kids and is willing to work work work? Or that chooses to furlough or make redundant the pilot with expensive health issues and too many sick calls? Look at EK and you’ll see professionals mid career with kids in college being let go because they cost more.

Gann tried to sharp shoot the system and he finally left flying. He could have stayed and his seniority would have been just fine. Yes, there is always the risk of a defunct airline or a bad merger. I’m on airline number 6.

sorry to revive this, but I just reread “Fate is the Hunter.”

[Overheat]

The only guys against seniorty lists are the ones working for a non seniority list company. Guys that don't want to wait for their turn and sell them selves to the lowest... "just for my upgrade. I don't mind getting a SO pay check flying on the left seat, build my hours and then try a DEC on a Major..." But, ups, wana come to a Major, get in line mister. They were not the only ones with experience. Some TRI/TRE License holders have less experience and skills then most of the SFO on the Major. But they still say they have right of way...
There are people that even pay to fly.
And now, on the biggest colapse of our industry, some work for free. They call them selves the smart guys... "at least I keep my self current..." no wonder big companies are now working on fully automated birds. I wouldn't thrust my name in such a low characters who call them Selves Pilots.
Once and for all, Airlines need Pilots.
Are we too many?
From the first day somebody payed for the type rating we were "one too much".
Remember? At start pay the TR, then the MCC, then if you pay the TR I let you work 500 hour (for free of course), then 1000, now something about upset ?!?!?!?!
We all failed. We did this to our selves. COVID just showed us how much. We are a group of individuals. Nothing more than that.

[Meester proach]

It’s always been this way . Rapidly expanding / places with less applicants have always hired DEC .

Legacy hasn’t . I think seniority is fair in so much as everyone should get a shot at promotion eventually - even if people outside the airlines can’t understand the lack of transferability for captains

[3RDi]

Overheat

Sounds like the airline pilots that have been made redundant becoming FI’s just to keep their hand in flying until things get back to normal. Pay isn’t important to them (it’s in black and white above) but more than happy to sell themselves short just to fly something. Yes, I have spoken face to face with enough interested airline guys that haven’t ever considered become an FI ordinarily.

[Alpine Flyer]

Working for seniority based airline.

Ernest K. Gann wrote that seniority implied the ostrich-like philosophy that one man can fly as well as another but that the system must remain forever, if only to protect the weak (actual wording may be a bit different, as this is re-translated from German).

I'd paraphrase Churchill, seniority may be the worst system, except for other systems that have been tried from time to time. Merit-based systems may look objective on paper but there's always some leeway for those who hand out the merit points. There is no yardstick to objectively measure who's the best pilot and there are too many variables in daily ops to use operational data to determine who's better. I dare say we are barely able to find out who's good enough.

There is a drawback to seniority if your carrier goes bust. That could but is unlikely to actually be fixed by seniority systems spanning multiple carriers. US ALPA studied that in the past but never came to an agreement to actually implement it.

[flyhigh55]

So how we all feeling about this now?

[Jumbo2]

Still working very well as it has always done in a big UK airline. I take it flyhigh55 you only joined a seniority based airline later on in your career or are with the current crisis having second thoughts about your career decisions you have made earlier on in your career (maybe that quick command wasn't the be all in the end)

[ETOPS]

If airlines used the date of issue of your Airline Transport licence to decided seniority it would allow transferring pilots to slot into an new company in the same relative position on the list.

Which is exactly why they don't do that as it would allow crews change employer without having to be demoted...........:rolleyes:

[booze]

It wouldn't work in EASA-land anyways: I've changed the SOLI of my licence twice already because of moving countries and changing employers (due to request of the latter) and the date of issue was always the date when i received the new license.

[VariablePitchP]

ETOPS

So get your licence, spend 30 years in IT then rejoin for a bit of fun pre-retirement and slot in above those who have been actually flying for 25 years. I think giving someone benefits for no reason other than they’ve been alive longer is known as age discrimination...

[Joe le Taxi]

Hours then

[FlightDetent]

Landings then.

:rolleyes: