Bankstown Airport Gouges Users

[HotPete]

To base 3 singles at Bankstown, out in the open, cost $4,000 last year, $10,000 in the coming year. Obviously this is an attempt to make the books look good prior to selling the airport.

Stupid though, if only 4 out of 10 aircraft remain due to insolvency or moving elsewhere their revenue wont have changed.

... and what have we heard from AOPA? Nothing! The only peep out of them recently is when the VP tried to destroy public confidence in a new country airline which "wont be there in 6 months time".

[T]

Hot Pete, What happened to AOPA, well they are too busy infighting and censoring every thing their members say to actually get out and do anything for General Aviation.
The Bankstown situation is a repeat of Canberra and have no doubt the rest of the GAAP airports will follow as soon as they see Bankstown get away with the rate hikes.
I expect the mighty AOPA President will get into this and have his say, no doubt disparaging and Snarek another AOPA man will wade in.
But what is AOPA doing about the real issues I hear you say?? like the AFM debacle, AOPA has encouraged the CASA Director to say CASA will not enforce the Law until early 2003 despite the fact that CASA cannot allow any citizen to knowingly break the Law, selective interpretation of executive authority.
How many Air Tourers will be flying after Aug 16th, no Flight Manual you see because theType Certificate holder is out of business. No Chipmunks flying, they don't have a valid Type Certificate.
And just to make something silly really bizarre, most Cessna's don't require an AFM at all, just placards on the airframe in strategic positions, even the twins.This is most of the Australian training fleet. A case of CASA shifting the legal responsibility for compliance to somewhere , anywhere but at their feet.
What a cock up.

[Icarus2001]

The mantra of user pays and cost recovery. All was fortold over 12 years ago with THE BOSCH REPORT.

The user does have a choice and will vote with their feet, up shop and move but what about all that capital investment in the buildings.

Hey, Islander Jock, interested in a new golden arches at YSBK?

[Torres]

And the silence from the ACCC is deafening........

[HotPete]

The very least I would have expected from the AOPA President would be for him to call upon the Minister, publicly, to over-rule Bankstown Airport's decision on the grounds that increases of this magnitude cannot be justified or sustained. That way, Mr Anderson would have to go on record rather than hide behind the bureaucrats.

[B767MAD]

Icarus2001

We today whilst sitting @ KFC we thinking about a Maccas at BK ! It would make a few dollars I think ! :D franchise maybe? specials to pilots?!

You walk into that KFC at BK and can feel the oil in the air! nasty!

[T]

Hot Pete, Don't hold your breath waiting, the Minister has an attack of the avoids as soon as Aviation gets mentioned, he is suffering from Aviation induced "burn out" and simply can't make decisions.

[ulm]

Bwahahahahahahahahahahah

AOPA 'ask the Minister'. :D :D :D

A lot of years ago that might have been possible, but AOPA will have to fix some real bad blood before the Minister does as they 'ask'

T, and we can all guess who he is by the similarity between various 'WA' posts on AOPA and the tone of his post here, knows all about pissing the Minister off, hey T

Anyway, wasn't privatisation supported back then, again, ask T

Have anything to do with the latest 'whingeogram' from Munro Mr T ??? :p That sort of scaremongering is right up your alley hey mate :D

[T]

ULM You are a joy, now be nice to your mother.

[ulm]

Well come on then T , tell us all about when you were on the AOPA Board.

Remember, parking here at YBAF TRIPLED, on your own airport YPJT it was very similar. RACWA dumped AOPA because of it and your deal on landing charges. No one at YPJT are members anymore, why??? In my humble opinion, because of you!!!!!

All over the country AOPA members quit because of the policies and infighting. 11,000 to what??? we dont know, they wont say, but I'd guess less than 7500.

And now YOU want AOPA to take action, and you say they are (still??) fighting amongst themselves..... BWAHAHAHAHAHA :D :D

Stop it T you are making my belly muscles hurt.

[gaunty]

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[ulm]

C'mon Gaunty, you gotta show me how to do that!!!!

[OZBUSDRIVER]

GUANTY, You have too much time on your hands



"everyone could use an extra inch"

[RAJAM]

After reading this my guess is that our account is right!!!
I was going to call BAL tomorrow and tell them they must have made a mistake...for our twin, the rates have been;
2000- $2,953.21 reasonable and justified.
2001- $3,641.94 well Ok I can absorb that increase.
2002- $7,696.63 I've heard of inflation but thats rediculous!!

Its not so much the hike rather than the unexpected and obviously unplanned extra.
It works out at 111% increase over just the last 12 months, does this seem to be the case with everyone elses??
How are the operators with many aircraft going to be effected?
Its obvious that they will have less parking there..false economy sydrome!!
Think I will still make that call..nothing said,nothing gained?

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Wheeler]

The only way you will get anywhere with this is to vote with your feet. Anyone any suggestions to beat BK, CN and HOX prices?

(Please dont say YWBN)

Privatised monopolies - wonderful!

[LUAW]

After several letters to the GM of Bankstown Airport Ltd, the last he did not bother to reply to, I have lodged a complaint with the NSW Dept of Fair Trading. ACCC did not seem interested although I believe AOPA and the Bankstown Airport Chamber are pursuing the matter with them.

To quote from Fair Trading's website on advice to business ...

You cannot "take unfair advantage of vulnerable customers, which is also known as unconscionable conduct. This may occur where customers have no alternative than to do business with you (for example, you may be the only shop in a country town) or where you have a product or service that is in high demand, and you abuse your bargaining power. A common example of this is where customers are pressured to sign a contract that they can't understand and which includes unfair conditions."

In my view BAL are engaging in "unconscionable conduct" since as the operator of the only three licenced GA airfields in the Sydney basin they are a monopoly. To say they are taking advantage of vulnerable customers is an understatement. Their claim that they have not increased charges by 111% but merely reduced the discount given is appalling. What normal ethical business would increase charges to customers by 111% and then try to justify it with manipulation of "discounts". They would not stay in business.

Despite the long and significant history of the three airfields as AIRFIELDS, BAL is clearly not interested in the GA aviation side. Bankstown is a business park and Hoxton and probably Camden are future sales to land developers. No doubt an attractive offering on this basis to any new owners. I would be very concerned if I had an aviation business at any of them.

What is happening in this country? Who decided that everything must now be justified only on the basis of "economics" and all human endeavours, aspirations and dealings can and should be measured by monetary cost? Who decreed that Australia is now no longer a human society but an "economy". Please no partisan politics. It goes much deeper than that.

I have been forced to vote with my feet and make other arrangements for the time being, but will not be going quietly. If enough refuse to accept this outrageous gouging perhaps BAL will have to reconsider. I hope the "fair" in "Fair Trading" means what it should mean.

[snarek]

LUAW

Ring the AOPA office and ask for John Lyon.

He will help, if you are a member. If not then consider joining.

We went through this in Canberra a few years ago, and lost. But that doesn NOT mean you have to lose this time.

God luck.

Andrew

[Torres]

Snerk. No one has ever won over landing and airport charges or en route charges. The industry is too fragmented to stand collectively or to even have a cogherant collective body to speak on it's behalf.

And if you do stand out from the crowd in arguements with airport authorities, ASA or CASA, your own industry "colleagues" who stand to gain from your efforts, are the first to try to pull you down. Tall poppy syndrome!

Two choices: buy a bottle of Vaseline or move to another airport.

P.S. Good luck anyhow. I hope you do get some satisfaction!

[GearOff]

I heard a rumour today that Combined Aviation Services will be packing up and leaving BK as a result of this and moving its training operation entirely to Coffs Harbour.

[Outback Pilot]

It maybe what the new airport owners want, everyone moves out and then subdivide into a nice housing estate to make their money? :mad: :mad:

[LUAW]

snarek

Thanks Andrew. Already have spoken with John a couple of times. Last I heard the Chamber and AOPA were trying to convince the BAL Board among other things, of the financial shortsightedness of turning away previously loyal customers, no matter how small.

As a matter of interest, source 2001 BAL Annual report.

Total aero charges for aircraft < 2 tonnes, 12 mths to June 2001 ..... $200,000
Remuneration to 8 (now 4) directors for 8 meetings, same period ..... $306,000

This on a total revenue of $9.1 million.

Hotpete, RAJAM, Wheeler and anyone else currently unhappy about TOLL charges.

Torres says ..

"Two choices: buy a bottle of Vaseline or move to another airport.
P.S. Good luck anyhow. I hope you do get some satisfaction!"

Sorry mate, even for those who don't move we're aviation types and would only ever use approved aero oil.

There is also a third choice. If you feel you have been treated unfairly by BAL, phone or write them saying so. Object to the unreasonable increase and ask for a reduction (or whatever). If they say take it or go, log onto the Fair Trading Site,

http://www.fairtrading.nsw.gov.au/contactus/complaint.html

and fill in the form. It only takes a few minutes.

Whilst the Airport Chamber of Commerce and AOPA continue with their campaign, we as individual BAL "customers" can also do something. What do you have to lose.

Respect the more experienced. They're the ones qualified to make brand new mistakes.

[BK_Equalizer]

In relpy to GearOffs comment about CAS moving to CH. This is not the case from what I have been told.

They like a number of other organisations have two choices with regard to the increase in airport charges, 1. absorb the costs themselves or 2. pass that increase directly t the consumer.

I believe that the second option is the approach that will be taken. No organisation will be able to absorb that amount of cost and remain viable.

So once again, who are the losers in this case??? ..... The trainee pilots who provide the income for the instructors.

What will be the longterm effect of this if the decision is not over turned?

How many more unemployeed pilots does the country need?

[hmm...]

It maybe what the new airport owners want, everyone moves out and then subdivide into a nice housing estate to make their money?

Hit the nail right on the head! BASTARDS!!! :mad: :mad: :mad:

[Outback Pilot]

I think Hmm…. Your spot on, the new owners of YSBK have an ulterior motive, make $$$$$. :mad: :mad: :mad: If that means subdividing for housing they will do it. Personally I will not be paying for the increased charges at YSBK if they are passed on to us pilots; I would sooner travel to WYVA “The Central Coast” or Wollongong etc. :D :D :D :D

[ulm]

At Archerfield a lot of people left. Redcliffe got quite popular and Caboolture opened up (but is under threat).

You guys in Sydney have more choice, Wolongong, The Oaks, Warnervale etc. So go there!!!!

Work out the costs. Is Goulburn out of the question.

But if you do that YSBK may well become housing. Then it is gone forever. So, even if you do leave, form a lobby group and only vote for a pollie that ACTUALLY helps you. That solidarity is vital.

A certain eccentric englishman has tried for a while to destroy AOPA. I am sure CASA, airport owners and other shysters thank him for that. But one thing GA needs is a strong solid body to fight for it, we don't have that now. We also need a strong AOPA committee that looks after our interests, not their own grandiose ideas. You can only support those on the committee who will listen to you if you are a member.

So, despite what you think of the politics, if you ain't a member ... JOIN!!!!

[Wheeler]

Ulm,

Good point re Archerfield - so quiet there these days. It would be interesting to know how many people have left there. The rumours are that there are plenty and it is interesting to see the ads in the Trader for fields in the Brisbane area. If BK owners perhaps took a look at their experience.....but then again, maybe AF is going exactly the way the owners want it to.

I cannot see BK going for housing - after all, it still is a potential political solution to the SY airport debacle - and perhaps the only one. CN and HOX? well, now there might be a different story.

Thanks for all the Ads re AOPA - yes we do need a strong body and we cannot complain if we do not get behind one. However, some might well argue that AOPA were part of the cause of the GAAP problems - and why should we get behind them now?

What we really need is a new training airfield. Something nice and flat, about 1000m, with good approaches, close enough to the CBD etc etc. I've never been near it, but that nice little strip in Holdsworthy looks lovely!

[awetzel]

Personally I agree with ulm (also be involved with AOPA, 02 9791 9099) and we need to form a local action group to save the local GAAP airports otherwise we will need to look elsewhere and travel further. If you need to look else where for training, that's what you will have to do, but at least try and fight to keep the major airports from being over run by the greedy developers.
http://www.aopa.com.au/headerimage1.gif AOPA Australia (http://www.aopa.com.au)
If you do need to move, I have found Warnervale Air Pty Ltd (http://www.ccac.com.au/) and excellent Flying School for doing your flying training. They do every thing from GFPT through to CPL. (I did not say they are perfect, and no school is, if you find the perfect school you can let us all know.) ;)
http://www.ccac.com.au/images/topbgtryd.gif
They have very good instructors, and the aircraft are reasonably priced compared to Bankstown as they do not have the expensive landing charges and expensive operating charges & associated costs. You will find the Central Coast Aero club a great bunch too if you looking for a good social group. (If you’re a member you get a discount on the hiring of aircraft from Warnervale Air Pty Ltd, plus many other benefits.) If you need more information give them a call on 02 4392 5174

If you’re a private aircraft owner you will find it a lot cheaper keeping your aircraft at a place like Warnervale, Wollongong or Goulburn etc. You need to look around and compare the costs and charges.

:D :D :D

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[Woomera]

awetzel

A most ingenious paradox!
We've quips and quibbles heard in flocks,
But none to beat this paradox!
A paradox, a paradox,
A most ingenious paradox!

G & S The PIRATES OF PENZANCE


You see we don't allow advertising here, but given the nature and importance of the topic I'll have to think about it for a bit.:)

To retain some balance, I'll have to offer BAL the right of reply, can somebody point me at the right person with an email address as their "contact" site for feedback requires all manner of information, before they will accept an email.:rolleyes:

[Rich-Fine-Green]

Was told by an engineer last time in AF;

350+ aircraft based at YBAF just before privatisation.

Just over 250 aircraft based at YBAF as of June 30 2002. Population decreasing at the rate of 2-3 aircraft per month.

I thought it was B.S. until I saw the increases of aircraft numbers at Redcliffe, Caboolture, Boonah & Watts Bridge.

:eek:

[snarek]

Holsworthy

Is that the tiny little bitumen strip with hangars I see coming into sydney.

oh yeah, I think you should join AOPA too ;)

besides, if you don't like what an organisation does or did, or the way it runs, join and change it. That's why I nominated for the Board. It was that or leave. Now I'm in I can have no complaints, if i don't like something that happens then I didn't persuade hard enough!!!! :D

(or i didn't get any support cos all those who think like i do aint members :mad: )

[Outback Pilot]

snarek, ulm, awetzel

I agree with you regarding joining AOPA :D and being involved in saving our GAAP airports otherwise we will have further to travel to; Wolongong, The Oaks, Warnervale or Goulburn, Maitland, Cessnock or even maybe Bathurst. :mad: :mad: :mad:

[LUAW]

Woomera
The BAL General Manager is Kim Ellis but he no longer replies to my letters and I don't have an e-mail address for him. Maybe someone from BAL cruises PPrune and can supply it.


Snarek and AOPA advocates.

I am a "lapsed" member but have contacted AOPA and others, offering to help or support in anyway I can, as well as conducting my own campaign. Whether to re-join AOPA ... it is very much a case of chicken and egg. When AOPA shows it can really be a uniting influence able to speak for the disparate sections of GA it may be able to overturn decisions like this. BAL is not interested in small GA and has no real feeling for aviation. I think they will only respond to pressure from above and this will have to be a political battle. I visit AOPA's website daily looking for some call to action, not only from members but all affected parties. So far nothing. Perhaps to attract new members requires a show of genuine leadership first. Perhaps I am impatient or just completely up the wrong tree.

In the meantime the Dept of Fair Trading has replied saying it is not in their jurisdiction, referring me to the ACCC. The ACCC told them business's like BAL can charge whatever they like! I do not accept this and have asked Fair Trading to explain how a business in NSW can use it's monopoly position to treat small customers who have no bargaining power, with such contempt. Isn't this why we have a Dept of FAIR TRADING ?? Depending on the reply the next step will be to the Minister.

awetzel

Warnervale .. a great place to get REALLY proficient with crosswind landings. (At least if you want to stay on the sealed part of the strip!). Moved there already for the time being. It does seem a very good place.

[Outback Pilot]

The Central Coast is not a bad place to live, also nice and close to Warnervale Airport.

You still have to watch the local housing estates as they have moved in there too, and are trying to stop Warnervale airport from developing any larger especially the Watanobbi crew up on the hill there. (The Watanobbi crew have tried to put pressure on the local Wyong Council to close it.) :mad: :mad: :mad:

I know a bit about the local gossip as my in laws live at Bateau Bay, plus we own a couple of investment properties on the Central Coast. :D :D :D

[awetzel]

Any more news on the costs saga at YSBK? :cool: :cool: :cool:

[Piper Arrow]

It looks like the Historical Aircraft Restoration Society (HARS) have to go now. No more free rent. There is a bit of gossip on the
The Sydney Airport Message Board (http://www.vpmag.com/cgi-bin/yssy/msgboard/UltraBoard.pl?), under the heading Bad news for Bankstown spotters/listeners/photographers :mad:

[High Altitude]

At least on the East Coast you have a choice.

Try Darwin where can we go? No where we just have to pay up. In December last year we had a similar (more) increase in landing fees. The justification was additional security etc, when really it was to pay for the demise of Ansett.

Darwin, Tennant Creek and Alice Springs are all owned by the same operator and the same hikes were across the board. Just about costs $100 to slap the wheels on the ground in a Chief.

But then again who really cares we are just the local opertors...

[429 CJ]

Keep 'em here HA! ;)