HF radio check on the ground

[frankice]

Good morning everyone

I haven't used HF radioes in a while, our SOP require a check of HF reception, transmission and Selcal check on the ground before departure, it look like that Stockholm Radio has disappeared from my route manual, does anyone know of any other FREE service provider in northern europe?

Thank you

[Capt Fathom]

Shanwick Radio?

A google search revealed this! (https://www.icao.int/EURNAT/EUR%20and%20NAT%20Documents/NAT%20Documents/NAT%20Documents/NAT%20Doc%20003/NAT%20Doc003%20-%20HF%20Guidance%20v3.0.0_2015.pdf)

If it doesn’t work just copy the link,

[Too Few Stripes]

Try searching for StoRadio, the rebranded Stockholm Radio.

[Less Hair]

https://storadio.aero/services/

https://storadio.aero/pilots-dispatchers/

[mustafagander]

In my old mob we used to do a SELCAL check with the en route radio pre take off. It was mandated in NZ.

[compressor stall]

In my old mob we used to do a SELCAL check with the en route radio pre take off. It was mandated in NZ.
that’s what I do now, even with satcom backup.

[Uplinker]

How does ground testing of HF radio square with the directive in the FCOM of not using HF radio while refuelling?

A high energy emission from an aircraft HF radio could be dangerous to an aircraft refuelling nearby on the ramp, even if the aircraft testing its HF radio is not itself refuelling.

[champair79]

Hi frankice,

I highly recommend you download the STORADIO app (do you have a company device to put it on?). When you open it, it will update with the latest propagation forecast so you can quickly find a frequency that’s likely to work. It also contains useful guides etc.

Champ

[mustafagander]

Uplinker,
HF check took about 5 minutes and we did it when the refueller brought the paperwork up. If all else failed we would do it on taxi. Far from a problem to get your check.

[Uplinker]

I only ask because if the aircraft next to you on the ramp was refuelling when you tested your HF, there would be pretty much the same risk of fuel vapour explosion as you testing it during your own refuelling.

In the two (UK) long-haul airlines I worked for, we never ground tested HF. We tested it airborne approaching ETOPS airspace, and most aircraft had two HF radios fitted.

[Capt Fathom]

Never heard of an aircraft blowing up as a result of a nearby HF check. Standard procedure was once our refuelling was complete, we did a HF check. Before Satcom was readily available, HF was your lifeline.

[hawk37]

Does anyone have a North American based HF station for a radio check?

How about a USAF or RCAF location?

Hawk

[plhought]

Look up ARINC San Francisco. There's a phone number you call with your position and they give you a frequency to try out, or send you a SELCAL.

[hawk37]

Thanks plhought. Info available here

https://www.rockwellcollins.com/Services_and_Support/Information_Management/ARINC_Aviation/globalink-air-ground/~/media/1B6E3CBC39D045239BEFE2F57210EC96.ashx

[Capn Bloggs]

Never heard of an aircraft blowing up as a result of a nearby HF check.
Has any aircraft blown itself up doing an HF check while it was refuelling?

[compressor stall]

Has any aircraft blown itself up doing an HF check while it was refuelling?
Probably not, but Airbus say "HF must not be used during refueling or transfer operation" so I don't. I usually do the HF check when the doors are closing when departing from remote places so I'm not struggling to try and get taxi calls and departure calls heard on the same frequency as Mumbai when taxiing. I've never considered the issue of causing danger to nearby refuelling aircraft as there are not usually any doing so. That said, if it was an issue, then I imagine that it would be prohibited.

Is causing danger to another aircraft on the ramp via an HF call a left over war time hand me down wisdom (like birds and radars) that may have been true once but is now obsolete?

[jjj2]

I’ve found HF check on the ground to be rather pointless excercise. In addition to posing a potential fire hazard a functional check on the ground by no means guarantees that SELCAL will work later when needed. And unsatisfactory check means you’ll depart with a known defect or will need to defer it and not be able to use it on the flight as it is unlikely the maintenance would have a spare box hanging around and be able to switch it by departure time.

I know some SOP’s require it but I’d rather skip the ground test and rather rely on previous crews report of it’s functional status.

[Capt Scribble]

Have a listen to the RAF volmet. No guarantee that if you receive, it will transmit, but it does prove the unit is powered.

[Uplinker]

..........I've never considered the issue of causing danger to nearby refuelling aircraft as there are not usually any doing so. That said, if it was an issue, then I imagine that it would be prohibited.

Is causing danger to another aircraft on the ramp via an HF call a left over war time hand me down wisdom (like birds and radars) that may have been true once but is now obsolete?

We are not allowed to use our cellphones at petrol stations, and they are much lower power devices.

HF ground testing has probably been safety audited, but just a thought: The distance from your aircraft fin, (where the HF antenna usually is), to your fuel tank vents is not much different to those of the aircraft next door, on some ramps.

[prickly]

I’ve found HF check on the ground to be rather pointless excercise. In addition to posing a potential fire hazard a functional check on the ground by no means guarantees that SELCAL will work later when needed. And unsatisfactory check means you’ll depart with a known defect or will need to defer it and not be able to use it on the flight as it is unlikely the maintenance would have a spare box hanging around and be able to switch it by departure time.

I know some SOP’s require it but I’d rather skip the ground test and rather rely on previous crews report of it’s functional status.

WTF? do I assume you would suggest there is no point checking the mags before take off because they may not be serviceable later?
I would suggest if you are operating around the Central Pacific, no HF, no go. So a pre take off HF check is essential. SELCAL however is a luxury.

[compressor stall]

prickly
Some people’s area of operations means that they just can’t comprehend having to make a taxi call on HF in an airliner at an untowered airport 1000+ miles from anywhere.

[jjj2]

WTF? do I assume you would suggest there is no point checking the mags before take off because they may not be serviceable later?
I would suggest if you are operating around the Central Pacific, no HF, no go. So a pre take off HF check is essential. SELCAL however is a luxury.


WOW. Strong reaction. So in your case you find out one of your mags doesn’t work and you press on regardless? How many flights did you cancel/delay for unsatisfactory HF/SELCAL check on ground? There are many airports around the world where reaching someone while on the ground and shielded by terminals and mountains with HF is difficult.

Fly safe!

[Una Due Tfc]

Shanwick Radio don’t charge for HF radio/selcal checks.

[compressor stall]

WOW. Strong reaction. So in your case you find out one of your mags doesn’t work and you press on regardless? How many flights did you cancel/delay for unsatisfactory HF/SELCAL check on ground? There are many airports around the world where reaching someone while on the ground and shielded by terminals and mountains with HF is difficult.

Fly safe!
jjj2 - the point he's making that still seems to be lost on you is that there are parts of the world that you need to know the HF is working so you can leave the ground. Europe and USA aren't those places normally. There's no point spending 5 mins hunting through the frequencies trying to work out which one is working and getting your call out when stationary with the engines turning. Better to have comms sorted prior to start so when you taxi you give the CTAF traffic call and then straight away the actual taxi call to ATC HF on a frequency that worked 5 mins ago. And yes, if HF didn't work, it may be rather prudent to delay or even cancel - although satcom now alleviates that somewhat.

[ve3id]

We are not allowed to use our cellphones at petrol stations, and they are much lower power devices.

HF ground testing has probably been safety audited, but just a thought: The distance from your aircraft fin, (where the HF antenna usually is), to your fuel tank vents is not much different to those of the aircraft next door, on some ramps.

Re: at Petrol stations - that advice is now changing as cellphone payment options are spreading. (Money talks :-) )

However, there was a recorded case of a Ham radio operator causing an explosion at a petrol (gas) station in Southwestern Ontario way back in the 60's. I remember reading about it in the press, so it is not an apocryphal story. Ham mobile rigs are typically 100-200 Watts, similar to aircraft HF. And then your ADSB is 150 Watts at 1090 MHz, much more energy than HF. So I would say that anywhere you can set mode S you can safely use HF.

[matkat]

We are not allowed to use our cellphones at petrol stations, and they are much lower power devices.

HF ground testing has probably been safety audited, but just a thought: The distance from your aircraft fin, (where the HF antenna usually is), to your fuel tank vents is not much different to those of the aircraft next door, on some ramps.
Fair point but the B747-100/200 had their HF antennas on the wing tips right next to the fuel vents.

[Altcrznav]

The HF test refueling restriction is a leftover from the probe and wire days. HF transmissions won’t cause an explosion any more than a cell phone will at a gas station. People should be taught more to ground themselves before fueling a car than worry about a cell phone.

If HF transmissions were a danger, you’d find more information on it. You don’t.

Yes, Airbus restricts you from doing it, but I’d say it’s more out of a liability concern. If you ask anyone there, and I have, you’ll find o one has an an answer.

[TowerDog]

Fair point but the B747-100/200 had their HF antennas on the wing tips right next to the fuel vents.

Not only that, but the HFs on the classic 747s transmitted @ 300 Watts, twice the power of the ham above that blew up a gas station.:sad:

[nonsense]

We are not allowed to use our cellphones at petrol stations, and they are much lower power devices.
This has more to do with getting people to focus on the task at hand, refueling safely, and then crossing the forecourt to pay without getting run down, than it has to do with ignition sources.

[snips]

The voltages present on a HF antenna can be rather large its caused by the black magic in the antenna tuning unit. The number insulators and size on a ground based antenna should give you a clue however for the same power the induced voltages on VHF and above are much smaller but the energy of the electron will be greater ( Lenz and Planck)

If no one can come into accidental contact with the antenna or aircraft( grounding issues) then i'd say your fine to test if your not sure leave it alone until you're away from everyone. I've known ship radio officers come up on the ham bands to test their kit
:}.

[Uplinker]

Aircraft refuelling during other aircraft's HF operation on the ramp has presumably - hopefully - been safety audited.

The HF transmission from your own aircraft is less likely to cause problems to your own aircraft because there is a conductive electrical path between your own HF system and your aircraft structure to equalise any electrical charges.

The problem can arise when two conducting bodies are not electrically joined - potential differences or static charges can arise. This is why your fuelling tanker connects an 'earth' wire to your aircraft before connecting the fuel hose: it forces both aircraft and tanker to the same electrical potential so there is no potential difference between the two, which could otherwise cause sparks and possible ignition when the fuel hose is connected and disconnected.

Two aircraft side by side on the ramp are not electrically connected to each other, and they have insulating rubber tyres, so a potential difference could arise - for example by one aircraft using a high power RF transmitter. As I say, hopefully, this has been considered - I always understood that HF and RADAR etc should not be used on the ramp, i.e. in close proximity to other aircraft.

[Smirk]

Good morning everyone

I haven't used HF radioes in a while, our SOP require a check of HF reception, transmission and Selcal check on the ground before departure, it look like that Stockholm Radio has disappeared from my route manual, does anyone know of any other FREE service provider in northern europe?

Thank you

If outside of the US, say, in New Zealand where HF SELCAL on ground is mandatory, who/what freq do you contact to request the HF frequencies?

[galaxy flyer]

The HF frequencies are on the enroute charts, pick one based on the old “higher the sun, the higher the freq “, rule. Always works, just include the frequency you’re using to call for the check.

[mustafagander]

The HF frequency on the unit which was used by the inbound crew is often a good guide.
With experience you learn which ones are usual for where you are.

[ScepticalOptomist]

In my airline the HF check on ground (with dual HF and satcoms) is considered complete if you hear the tuning tone after a quick transmit on the frequency. No prolonged voice transmission required.

If the transceiver tunes, it’s considered functional due to the way the units work. This has been the same across the various Boeing and Airbus fleets.

[PJD1]

We are not allowed to use our cellphones at petrol stations, and they are much lower power devices.

The reason mobile phones use is not allowed on petrol forecourts is actually nothing to do with the RF signal which as you say is low power and poses no risk. The main potential hazard is if someone were to drop the phone while filling up their vehicle it could break and the battery could cause a spark, petrol vapour is heavier than air so if there is any accumulation of vapour it will be close to the ground just where any spark from a dropped device might occur.

[AerialBender]

I just noticed this old post.....

Whilst twiddling the knobs at Speedbird London, I often had test calls from the A/C HF "Boxes", by technicians checking the equipment, after maintenance or repair.

These calls were often transmitted from inside a hangar or the apron out front.
There was never a concern raised, that I heard of, about a possible fire hazard, plus, Kerosene is much less volatile than Petrol.

Although the A/C were on the ground and often physically underneath the station, (3rd Floor Tech Block "A") the received signal was often very weak and difficult to hear because
the transmitting and receiving aerials were, latterly, remotely located near Guildford and Farnborough!

Speedbird London R.I.P.

[Smithy02]

If outside of the US, say, in New Zealand where HF SELCAL on ground is mandatory, who/what freq do you contact to request the HF frequencies?
In New Zealand a Selcal check is only required if you are not CPDLC equipped, there is an AIP statement on the subject.
S02