Advice Please - about to start ATPL course

[STurns]

I am about to embark on a JAR ATPL course (having previously been of sound mind and stable career).

A bit of advice would be welcome as i'm getting different answers depending upon whom i'm speaking with.

I have the following -
PPL A
IMC
Night
200hrs TT

I understand that to get a frozen ATPL I need the following -
ATPL Theory
CPL
IR
MCC
plus of course my multi rating.

Now for the questions -

1. I don't want to be in debt forevever (actually come to think of it I am already!!) so I'm going for the distance learing/modular route. Who do you guys/gals recommend for the ATPL Theory - i'm currently looking at Four Forces and Bristol Groundschool. Bristol seems to have some good feedback, anyboy else care to put forward their recommendations.

2. Confused about JAR IR Course. I have been told that my IMC is an exemption for the 55hr course (reduced to 43 hours with IMC). Other schools are telling me otherwise and that to do the 43hr course I would have to sit the IR as a PPL (CAA rather than JAR??) and then do the CPL and convert to CPL/IR. Please help, v. confused on this one!!

3. Training Schools - I can't afford to take time off so i'm looking at doing the CPL and IR part time. I'm currently looking at Multiflight and Leeds Flying School as I can get to LBA in about 90 mins. Also might consider Humberside. I would really appreciate some feedback on these schools.

4. How much of a difference will it make to my future employers where my training was? Should I be looking at the bigger, well known schools for the flight training?

5. I was going to do the M/E at my local flight school but apparently you can do a combined CPL and M/E which has reduced hours?? The sort of prices i've been quoted are about £800-£900 additional for the M/E on top of the CPL price. This seems to make good commercial sense. Any reason why I shouldn't do this?

I think that is about it, but if you have any other help please feel free to pass it on.

Thanks in advance.

PS I'm 31, does anyone think i'm mad for doing this? Funnily enough it's my girlfriend that has pushed me into actually doing what i've been talking about for years.

[gazelle507]

You will be well advised to contact Pilot Assist. There website is at www.pilotassist.com (http://www.pilotassist.com) they will answer all your questions. I did and will never look back.
31, your a spring chicken, well done to your girlfriend.

[The flying gunman]

Sturns,

Firstly welcome to PPrune.
To answer your questions ,if you use the search facility you will find the answers to them all but here are my answers(for what they are worth).

1) I am in a similar position to yourself at 34 also made the mad decision to try and make a living out of flying.I am half way through the theory-distance learning.I am with OATS who are very good.Excellent material,excellent support. I was with one of the schools that you mentioned but will not comment further on here.Email me if you want the details,just remember you get what you pay for.

2)I have placed a number of posts recently on this.If you have a CAA ppl with an IMC you get 12 hours exemption of the approved JAA IR course.If you have a JAA ppl with an IMC you get nothing!.It is wrong what you have been told about ppl/IR.AnIR is an IR full stop.Remember as well that as of 30/01/01 a foreign ICAO IR is also worth nothing against the JAA IR approved course.

3) Part time courses.I cannot comment on the schools up north but friends have done the IR part time at Stapleford in Essex with success. The feed back from them is be prepared for at least 60hrs because you forget between lessons and are always catching up at the start of each lesson(five hours more at £300 per hour!!!)

4)Can't really answer this you pass the same skill tests to the same standards who ever you learn with so it should not matter.BUT if you were the chief pilot of the flag carrying national airline who sends all his cadets to oats and they all come out as good pilots and you have two guys for a job.One has been to Oats the other to a 'minor school'.Apart from that nothing between them.Who would you give the job to??. The other point is that at 30+ it is more difficult to get employed anyway maybe oats or Cabair might help a little.But it depends on you as well.If you have been to Oats and passed everything first time but are a complete **** no one is going to employ you. A friend of mine went to a 'minor school' and got his first job at 39 flying jets because of his'life experience'he was told later.It really is a matter for you.

5) ME.Thought about the states..lots cheaper.yes you can do it as part of your cpl or ir but won't you have enough to think about.If you go to oats it is automatically part of your IR.

Good luck hope to see you on a flight deck in the not to distant future

[This message has been edited by The flying gunman (edited 07 March 2001).]

[TooHotToFly]

Flying Gunman - what do you mean when you say "If you have a CAA ppl with an IMC you get 12 hours exemption of the approved JAA IR course.If you have a JAA ppl with an IMC you get nothing!.It is wrong what you have been told about ppl/IR.AnIR is an IR full stop."

That's the whole point about getting the reduction for an IMC rating. Unless you have a CAA CPL, you have to do it as a PPL/IR.

[gazelle507]

JAA does not recognise IMC,you get no credit towards a JAA I/R, sorry guys. The only advantage of an IMC is to give you a good feel and foundation for the I/R course.

[autothrottle]

There seems to be lots of experts around ,but sadly not on JAR!
Gazelle507 is very wrong on the issue of what value there is attached to the IMC rating.Quite correct that the rating is not recognised by the JAA ,it is a CAA rating.However I can shed light on this.On studying the relavant JAR documentation and in consultation with the CAA SRG FCL policy unit and the relevant JAR FCL experts at SRG you will find that an IMC rating WITH a valid CofT will give you a reduction of 12hours.
Now comes the difficult bit for most "EXPERTS".Once you have gained the Multi IR(A)you have it endorsed onto your PPL.When you have completed the CPL module and send off for your licence the IR is converted to your frozen ATPL.
This is from the horses mouth,so let there be no doubt,ie the JAA itself and CAA SRG JAR FCL.

Cheers

AUTOTHROTTLE

[STurns]

Autothrottle,

Does this mean I have to do the IR first, then the CPL and that if you do it the other way round you dont get the 12hrs exempted? This is what I was previously told. Or does it not make any difference?

[TooHotToFly]

STurns - Exactly. You have to do the IR course, attach the IR to your PPL, and then do the CPL course.

[G-WHISKY]

Just to add to autothrottle's post - the 12 hours exemption from the IR is only valid if you start the training before June 2002.

[ickle black box]

Sorry to be dumb, but can I confirm a point. I have 88 hours. If I pass the IMC this summer, do I have to then start/finish the IR training, before June 2002. What constitutes the IR training?, will just one flight do?. Is there then a limit to the time within which I have to complete the IR?

To avoid all these millions of questions in future, is there an internet site, which documents all the JAR's, completly. I've read then at CAA SRG, but it seems to be an abbreviated version.

------------------
If God had meant man to fly, He would have given him more money.

[ickle black box]

Replying to my own message, for other people's reference. I found this is a document at caa srg;

"
Holders of a UK PPL(A) or UK CPL(A) with an IMC Rating which includes a valid Certificate of Test will be entitled to a reduction in the approved training requirement of 12 hours of dual instruction in instrument flying, where the training and testing are completed by 30 June 2002. A UK CPL(A) holder who receives this 12 hour credit is not entitled to a further 5 hour reduction as allowed in Appendix 1 to JAR-FCL 1.205
paragraph 12.

Holders of JAR-FCL licences (including the JAR-FCL CPL(A)(Restricted)) may not benefit from the 12 hours credit based on the IMC Rating, but a JAR-FCL CPL holder would be eligible for the 5 hour reduction in
accordance with Appendix 1 to JAR-FCL 1.205
"

Does this mean that if I add an IMC to my JAR-FCL PPL, I don't get the reduction in hours towards the IR?

[This message has been edited by ickle black box (edited 09 March 2001).]

[TooHotToFly]

ickle black box - G-WHISKY is slightly wrong with regards to his post. As highlighted in your post, you must have finished your training, successfully completed the test, and applied for the rating before the 30th June 2002.

And to clarify your situation, you will not get any dispensation off the approved IR course for holding an IMC rating if you are adding it to a JAR-FCL PPL - you will have to do the full 55 hour course (assuming you are doing a Multi IR). If you are adding it to a JAR-FCL CPL, you will benefit from the 5 hours reduction making it a 50 hour course.

[ickle black box]

Which leads me onto the next question,

Is there any point in doing the IMC, or is it better to put the £1500 towards the IR. I can appreciate it will make the IR easier, but wouldn't the money be better spent on aditional training at the time do doing the IR?.

Roughly, how much does it cost to complete the IR in the UK, and are any schools in the US qualified to teach it?

How many hours do I need to start the IR course/hours needed to be issued the IR (added onto a JAR-FCL PPL)?

(questions are us) ickle :)

[TooHotToFly]

ickle black box - here's my opinion.

I think you would be better off saving your money rather than doing an IMC rating. The JAR IR course doesn't acknowledge the IMC rating, so it's designed for people only with PPL or CPL ability. Subsequently, even with very little instrument flying experience, you shouldn't struggle to get through the course. £1500 could buy you 5 or 6 hours extra training (nearly 15 in the sim), which would be more useful to you.

If/when you are hour building though, it would be advisable to practice things like instrument flying, rather than just fly around aimlessly.

I don't think you will get an Approved IR course (55 hours) for under £10,000 in this country - and then add
£1000 for the test. On the American side, IFTA and Pan Am Flight Academy are approved to do IR's but I don't know how much they charge.

Before you can start the course you need 50 hours PIC cross-country, of which 10 must be in aeroplanes.

Hope that helps.

[ickle black box]

TooHot,

Reply makes a lot of sense, it's also good to see people state that they are expressing an opinion, not just charging in to inflict their views.

One final remaining question on this, I've heard that cross country counts as over 50km. Is this correct, and where can I verify this?.

(nearly at the bottom of all this) ickle :)

[TooHotToFly]

Not quite sure what the actual definition is, but I have always believed that cross-country is defined as whenever you leave the circuit.

[STurns]

TooHot,

You stated that you can't get an "approved" course for under £10K in the UK. I've spoekn to several companies offering courses below this.

As i'm still getting up to speed on things could you clarify this for me i.e difference between approved/unapproved.

[TooHotToFly]

STurns - if you hold more than 600 hours, have passed the CAA written exams and hold a CAA licence, you are exempt from the approved course - you simply need to reach the standard required to pass the test. This was/is the route commonly taken by flying instructors building hours before getting an airline job. On average it probably cost you around half of an approved course.

This situation is not applicable to you so you must do an approved course. ickle black box was asking about adding an IR to his JAR-FCL PPL, which means a 55 hour approved IR course. I was only really talking a ballpark figure, but I can't think of any places where you could get one much cheaper than £10,000.