A DEBATE THAT MUST BE HAD

[Ken Borough]

This is a good read and offers some challenging views!

https://www.michaelwest.com.au/the-club-will-virgin-australias-political-influence-deliver-taxpayer-subsidies-for-its-foreign-shareholders/

[spektrum]

Not one more cent. Not even one.

[Led Zeppelin]

Snouts in the trough - Lobbying beyond belief and all designed to be hidden from the masses.

[Australopithecus]

Let it go bankrupt, nationalise it and save the employees. Owners and managers can shove off.

I seriously want the government to help all employees nationwide, but there has to be a harsh quid pro quo for executives...no bonuses for ten years or until any aid is repaid. No share buy-backs ever again. Etc.

[neville_nobody]

The author's point is irrelevant. QF have exactly the same private lounge setup. The question for the government is, do they want 10 000+ people made unemployed and have an entire country beholden to QF if it comes down to some form of Government Support?

The only solution to the ensuing monopoly will be to declare Open Skies. However if you hold a Chairman's Lounge Membership will you be really willing to vote for Open Skies domestically?

[Pinky the pilot]

Let it go bankrupt, nationalise it and save the employees. Owners and managers can shove off.

I seriously want the government to help all employees nationwide, but there has to be a harsh quid pro quo for executives...no bonuses for ten years or until any aid is repaid. No share buy-backs ever again. Etc.

Well put, Australopithecus. :ok:

[The Bullwinkle]

The author's point is irrelevant. QF have exactly the same private lounge setup.
Of course they do. Where do you think JB got the idea from?

[Australopithecus]

Yeah, lounges are another thing. In what ethical universe is it ok for politicians to accept largesse from an entity under their legislative control? I once operated a xmas flight to HNL with the then transport minister travelling with his family FOC. At least other countries have the decency to hide their corruption with a bit of flair. Ours are just pigs at the trough.

[Berealgetreal]

Alan Joyce and PR machine in full flight. 8000 got laid off today boys get the champagne out. Go on.

[Colonel_Klink]

This ‘journalist’ has written a number of articles critical of Virgin.

Is he a member of the Chairman’s Lounge at QF?

[machtuk]

The landscape just changed for Virgin/Tigers today!

[Oriana]

This ‘journalist’ has written a number of articles critical of Virgin.

Is he a member of the Chairman’s Lounge at QF?

I doubt it. he has been calling out Qantas as tax dodgers for years.

At the end of the day, we REALLY need a Federal ICAC to stamp out soft AND hard corruption, because, it ain't just airlines.

AND - we need to seriously curtail the government/business revolving door, address 'lobbying' and take the money out of politics.

Maybe after all this corona stuff is over, we can all take a good long look at ourselves, our society and governance, and work out a new social deal.

[Berealgetreal]

I don’t SA was part of that group. Straight shooter from what I’ve seen.

First step is an enquiry into 2010-18.

On the topic of the club there was a rumor getting about that it had no budget during the build.

[normanton]

Alan Joyce and PR machine in full flight. 8000 got laid off today boys get the champagne out. Go on.
They weren't laid off. Get your facts straight.

[Berealgetreal]

They weren't laid off. Get your facts straight.

Bit touchy there.

Celebrate nonetheless, one step close to monopoly.

[George Glass]

machtuk, crawl back under your rock.

[normanton]

Bit touchy there.

Celebrate nonetheless, one step close to monopoly.
No I will not celebrate at all. I have many good friends at VA. Take your disgusting attitude elsewhere.

[tartan_penguin]

What a joke of an article. Someone sounds pissed off he didn't get an invite.

[machtuk]

machtuk, crawl back under your rock.
gee you are an angry little man aren't you?

[George Glass]

machtuk , you contribute nothing.
It is not possible to exaggerate this seriousness of this situation for employees at Qantas , Virgin and many others in the aviation industry.
A level of gravitas is required when commenting. Something you lack.
Go away.

[Berealgetreal]

Ok sure, you’re getting a little emotional.

[TBM-Legend]

Where are the VA shareholders that should be looking after their most important asset; the staff?

Why is it always the gummit that is asked to solve the issues...?

[Servo]

What a horrible world we live in. As if the world is not going through enough. I am pretty sure the OP works for Qantas, from previous posting history.

They couldnt but help post such a pathetic piece of so called journalism. The irony is that Qantas has been doing the same for a LOT longer. Now if the so called journalist had mentioned both did the same and it was a balanced article, it wouldnt be so bad.

For people to gloat about 8000 staff being stood down without any income or 300+ pilots tonight without a job, is simply disgusting and immoral. A number of pilots in Ansett commited suicide after it went under. My guess there will be others here as well.

What a horrible industry and horrible people. To wish bad on others is disgusting. You people are pathetic. I hope you all get what you deserve.

[chookcooker]

Where are the VA shareholders that should be looking after their most important asset; the staff?

Why is it always the gummit that is asked to solve issue...
like a fly to ****

[SandyPalms]

Yes QF do the same. But i must be the only person who thinks the point of the article is about whether public money should be used to prop up an airline that isn't Australian owned.

[Servo]

Yes QF do the same. But i must be the only person who thinks the point of the article is about whether public money should be used to prop up an airline that isn't Australian owned.

It is not the same as keeping people employed?

How about the government went to every employee and simply paid what they were earning at the commencement of such measures and pay that for the next 6 months. Would that be more palatable to QF employees and management?

[TACQANAVIAVEC]

Not defending QF but the point of the article is that the government will be bailing out a foreign owned company when they have 1 billion in cash, have already stood down 90% of their workforce, are receiving aid from the GOV and all the while the real foreign owners sit back and chill.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

Let it go bankrupt, nationalise it and save the employees. Owners and managers can shove off.

I seriously want the government to help all employees nationwide, but there has to be a harsh quid pro quo for executives...no bonuses for ten years or until any aid is repaid. No share buy-backs ever again. Etc.


Hear hear! Save the staff and let the psychopaths burn.

I would say that any political party who runs with this policy would take an election by a landslide.

[Global Aviator]

As many have said and experienced finding oneself out of work is disastrous.

This is so much worse than Ansett as every industry is collapsing. How hard is it going to be to get a job?

Then add in the frustration of not doing what you love to do.

The world has changed, hopefully very temporararily.

Who gives a fcuk who you work for, support each other. Have a google at how many airlines around the world are on the brink, how many staff are out of work, it filters right down and this is only one industry.

What can be done??? What will be done??? But remember we are all one, we all breathe and I for one want everyone to continue to breathe. If ya see someone down, ask the question, suicidal is a final hole.....

Rant well and truly over but stand together!

[Ken Borough]

Let's keep the conversation civil and constructive - there isn't any need to restore to the ad hominem.

As I said. there are some challenging views expressed in the article that could apply equally to Qantas and Virgin Australia. If anyone looks at https://www.michaelwest.com.au, they will find Qantas is just as much in the gun as is Virgin, perhaps more so. :ok:

[Colonel_Klink]

So if the government did somehow financially support Virgin, would you people be happier if that then bought them an equity stake in the business?

Or is it that the government shouldn’t have its hand in any package at all? And I suppose the government shouldn’t be helping the farmers during a drought? And they shouldn’t be helping the communities of the bushfires either?

Some of you need to wake up - this is a once in a lifetime event. The damage that this will do to the entire economy is heading towards something very very significant. If you don’t think QF is going to need assistance in the future, you’re also kidding yourself.

There are articles suggesting only 20 main airlines around the world will survive this - does anyone think that this is a good thing?

I’m hoping this government is smart enough to realise that the airline industry in this country plays a significant part in the economy - although it’s unlikely considering how much they stuffed this whole thing up in the first place.

A monopoly in the airline industry is likely to slow any economic recovery. If prices suddenly jump to $400 a ticket to go ML SY because there isn’t any competition - people won’t travel!

The virus isn’t anyone’s fault - but the governments direct decisions have resulted in the closing down of the airline industry. The PM is out there saying that people should not travel domestically and has banned international travel. A DIRECT outcome is that both airlines essentially have no revenue. The PM announced funds for small and medium sized business, but has announced very little for the industry that has had the direct impact of the travel restriction (Of the $700m announced, some are fees to refunded, others are the waiving of taxes and levies that only apply when aircraft are flying - which they aren’t). I’m baffled by that - I truly am.

For what it’s worth - I doubt the government will offer any assistance (if they do - it should be to both major airlines and Rex as well as they all provide an essential service). And because the government won’t help - there is a significant chance Virgin Australia won’t survive. And it’s disgusting that seems to please some people here.

[Asturias56]

"There are articles suggesting only 20 main airlines around the world will survive this - does anyone think that this is a good thing?"

Last weeks "Economist" forecast that one certain result of the crisis is that the biggest firms in any sector will get bigger - Apple for example have 6 years of cash reserves right now - they'll be able to buy anyonelese who survives - same will happen in the airline business

[gordonfvckingramsay]

So if the government did somehow financially support Virgin, would you people be happier if that then bought them an equity stake in the business?

Or is it that the government shouldn’t have its hand in any package at all? And I suppose the government shouldn’t be helping the farmers during a drought? And they shouldn’t be helping the communities of the bushfires either?

Some of you need to wake up - this is a once in a lifetime event. The damage that this will do to the entire economy is heading towards something very very significant. If you don’t think QF is going to need assistance in the future, you’re also kidding yourself.

There are articles suggesting only 20 main airlines around the world will survive this - does anyone think that this is a good thing?

I’m hoping this government is smart enough to realise that the airline industry in this country plays a significant part in the economy - although it’s unlikely considering how much they stuffed this whole thing up in the first place.

A monopoly in the airline industry is likely to slow any economic recovery. If prices suddenly jump to $400 a ticket to go ML SY because there isn’t any competition - people won’t travel!

The virus isn’t anyone’s fault - but the governments direct decisions have resulted in the closing down of the airline industry. The PM is out there saying that people should not travel domestically and has banned international travel. A DIRECT outcome is that both airlines essentially have no revenue. The PM announced funds for small and medium sized business, but has announced very little for the industry that has had the direct impact of the travel restriction (Of the $700m announced, some are fees to refunded, others are the waiving of taxes and levies that only apply when aircraft are flying - which they aren’t). I’m baffled by that - I truly am.

For what it’s worth - I doubt the government will offer any assistance (if they do - it should be to both major airlines and Rex as well as they all provide an essential service). And because the government won’t help - there is a significant chance Virgin Australia won’t survive. And it’s disgusting that seems to please some people here.

Farmers and individuals who are ACTUALLY struggling following a natural disaster should be helped, no strings attached.

Multi billion dollar companies with large boards of multi millionaires well known for their money first approach to corporate “ethics” shouldn’t get that benefit; their staff should. The company involved should lose some of their autonomy and the benefactors should become partners as it were. I am
more than happy for our nations airlines to be wholly or partially nationalised.

Granted this is a once in a generation event, but don’t think for a minute that our corporate “leaders” won’t milk it to their benefit.

[Fliegenmong]

I’m hoping this government is smart enough to realise that the airline industry in this country plays a significant part in the economy

It's all good...their "Club" & "Chairmans" lounge memberships see to that! :)

[lucille]

......The virus isn’t anyone’s fault.....

Au contraire, but it is.

And that responsible entity needs to make reparations to everyone for the economic and social damage their culinary peculiarities have caused.

Luckily they “own” 40% of VA they may like to relinquish this to the Aussie taxpayer as a sign of their good faith.

[Fliegenmong]

I’m hoping this government is smart enough to realise that the airline industry in this country plays a significant part in the economy

It's all good...their "Club" & "Chairmans" lounge memberships see to that! :)

[Sunfish]

Having your corner store burn down is a “Once in a lifetime” event yet I don’t think government will be rushing in.

**** Qantas. They play the “national treasure” game when it suits them and the “international airline of no fixed address” as well.

To be a national treasure in my opinion would require:

- no foreign shareholding’s.

- complete onshore maintenance and overhaul of the entire fleet, and engines. A national defence asset.

- Solely Australian staff with no outsourcing.

- schedules, pricing and service levels that recognize the huge economic importance of direct air travel to ALL Australian capitals, tourist destinations and regional centres and provide a nationally level economic playing field.

Since Qantas doesn’t do any of that, it is just a ******* leach. No better than McDonalds, KFC, Subway, Sunglass hut, etc.

It’s a pity that you bought the “professionalism” BS. Your management thinks you are just the same as fast food waiters.

[Sunfish]

People will surprise you. Just don’t let the disaster go to waste. Take back control of your country from the lobbiests and political donors.

[PPRuNeUser0161]

Sunfish

Ok so
- Australia is wholly Australian owned???
-Australia imports nothing???
-No foreigners in Australia???
-Everything is cheap here??

Not very realistic buddy!

[Sunfish]

Soupie, Qantas plays both sides. That is the problem. It’s international when it suits or a fuzzy koala when the time is right like now - when it wants to cuddle up and suck up taxpayer dollars. But it’s worse!

Get this! Just last week it was threatening Australian pilots that if they didn’t agree to new pay scales, they would create an offshore entity to crew A350’s! Read the Pprune threads! That is what they threatened - offshoring!

..And today they are a warm furry Koala!!

**** them!

[exfocx]

This ‘journalist’ has written a number of articles critical of Virgin.

Is he a member of the Chairman’s Lounge at QF?

Klink must be a VA employee. MW has been calling out bull**** since at least 2004 when I first started reading him in HK. He pointed out all the bs IPOs prior to the GFC.

They don't come any straighter than him.

[PLovett]

Gentlemen, the issue is far wider than VA or QF and it extends back beyond the formation of VA. Like most things in Australia it arose out of the USA in the late 1970s and into the 1980s'. It was the change from 'stakeholder capitalism' to 'shareholder capitalism'. Under the former all stakeholders in a corporation were regarded as interests that had to be protected as far as it was possible. When you take into account that your workforce is a stakeholder and protecting them had the result of keeping the share price lower than it could be.

Then an insidious change occurred primarily due to the activities of certain corporate raiders who mounted hostile takeovers. Seeing corporations with a good asset sheet but depressed share price was like a shark smelling blood. They were able to buy these corporations using borrowed money, transfer the debt to the purchase, strip the assets and sell the remaining shell. This was the rise of shareholder capitalism where the only consideration was the shareholder which meant anything to keep the share price high as possible. It was under this change that you had the majority of government assets sold off - it seemed a good idea at the time.

The upshot of this change is that you have a business elite pressing the government for ever more benefits for the corporation - not the employees who can go hang if necessary. Its why you hear conservative governments around the world calling for tax breaks for companies and high income earners based on the bovine excreta reasoning that it will trickle down. It never has - it never will. Why is the economic stimulus going to pensioners and benefit recipients - because they will spend it. The government was backed into a corner because it knew the stimulus had to be effective. Give it to corporations and all they will do is buy back their shares thus artificially inflating the value of the company and putting the CEO in line for his/her bonus.

So, VA is doing nothing new. QF with its Chaimans Lounge has been doing it for decades. Every major corporation in Australia glad hands the politicians in one way or another. We allow it, its legal, its business as it is practiced today. The most egregious cases sometimes trip over the line and they get their hands smacked but until the public wake up and demand fundamental change it will continue.

[WestonFlyer]

Companies need to get a grip. Pay your front line staff. Then your overheads. Then pay your management. If there is anything spare, which lets face it in this industry there won't be, pay your shareholders. It's the shareholders own fault for investing in an unprofitable industry that's run by gangsters. Rant over :}

[Kit Sanbumps KG]

And in an industry which is so focused on hazard identification and risk management, when we look at the warnings to governments about virus pandemics, and the lack of action, how will we hold elected representatives to account?

[Roj approved]

As many have said and experienced finding oneself out of work is disastrous.

This is so much worse than Ansett as every industry is collapsing. How hard is it going to be to get a job?

Then add in the frustration of not doing what you love to do.

The world has changed, hopefully very temporararily.

Who gives a fcuk who you work for, support each other. Have a google at how many airlines around the world are on the brink, how many staff are out of work, it filters right down and this is only one industry.

What can be done??? What will be done??? But remember we are all one, we all breathe and I for one want everyone to continue to breathe. If ya see someone down, ask the question, suicidal is a final hole.....

Rant well and truly over but stand together!

WELL SAID GLOBAL AVIATOR

I am flabbergasted by the delight some posters are taking in the possible demise of airlines, or worst still, fleets within their own airline.

We are all in this together, we should be supporting each other in any way we can, and on the other side of this, we should be trying to make sure as many of our colleagues retain their jobs as we can.

Have some compassion for our Tiger friends, they are the first of many in Australia unfortunately, worldwide it has been happening since December . These guys and girls have struggled in their careers in the same way the rest of us struggled, GA, regionals etc. it’s not a time to judge them and their choices.

No pilot ever set out to destroy the career of another. We all just wanted to achieve the flying goals and dreams we had when we started on this crazy journey. Sometimes, that took a different path to what we thought, taking us to places we may not have wanted to go, but out of that we made lifelong friends, memories and had experiences that we will carry for the rest of our lives.

Now more than ever, it’s time to reach out to a fellow pilot that has had their wings clipped, check in on your mates. Pass on any information you learn about anything, Mortgage relief, Centrelink stuff, Casual work, Money saving tips, a new recipe, whatever it is, it could help. More importantly, help them understand they are not alone.

The threat is hanging over all of us, maybe the feelings you have toward others are being fed by the fear of the unknown? Take some time to work through your own thoughts and feelings, and if you still have a job at this point, you are one of the lucky ones.

No one group of pilots are responsible for the financial state of the company they work for, we fly the aeroplanes to the SOP’s we are given, and do what we can to do that as efficiently as possible.

The aviation industry will look very different on the other side of this.

Be kind to yourself, and be kind to each other.

[machtuk]

Ya gotta hand it to the cunning little Leprechaun, his job is to get the best deal for the company and of course himself thru any means available (sucker Govt for Eg) and he's very good at it!
We all thought '98 was a game changer but this global disaster will change the face of aviation forever and in the CEO's favour!
Best of luck to the many who are now irreversibly effected! -(

[George Glass]

Yikes , Sunfish. There you go again........
Qantas was fully privatised in 1997. Maybe you would prefer it to be re-nationalised ?
Until such time it will behave as commercial enterprise.
Where does your obsession with QF come from?
Refused an upgrade?

[Ken Borough]

Sorry, Sunfish, but Qantas has been, by the proverbial country mile, Australia's only truly National airline in most Australians' lifetime. On the other hand, weren't the terrible domestic twins (AN and TN) considered Melbourne-centric with their Head Offices cheek by jowl and staff guilty of much collusion and skullduggery in nearby pubs and parks? We are living in 2020 in the 21st century.

[CamelSquadron]

So much bull**** point scoring and finger pointing is getting posted here in difficult times. You know what - it all doesnt matter anymore.

Things look gloomy. But we are a very resilient and very adaptable lot. We will get through this and the sun will continue to rise every morning.

You may not look at it this way at the moment and I am sorry if what I am about to say may be hard to take for some who are facing very difficult financial circumstances right at this moment in time. But for many, they will look back at this time in the rear view mirror and will think that being made redundant was the best thing that happened to them. It can be the spark that forces you out of your comfort zone and into doing something that you always wanted to do or something that you are really good at - rather than just keep turning running on the same treadmill. If you can, look at this as an opportunity.

All the best to everyone. Keep the head up.

[Fliegenmong]

Camel...go away....

Ken...yeah I get the idea of a National Carrier, but I have NEVER supported or patronised it's service since the 2011 fiasco...despite a looong family history, they are no longer deserving of my support. The lack of my support won't hurt them. Thae fact that I spread my lack of support will not hurt them either. So continue on QF, as you were, as it were, and you will slowly garner less & less support....but who cares you have Chairmans club benefits to dole out to our substandard politicians...

Still it makes me proud to avoid QF wherever possible! Not an affront to the regular staff, despite very few of which have made a lovely contribution to the experience, the majority of which have not...I get that Boys & Girls :) ....but you should also count yourselves lucky you do not work at Woolworths....oh wait

[Sunfish]

Ken, Qantas is NOT a national airline. It is a Sydney based International carrier with no allegiance to any country except when it suits it.

The classic, glaring, sheer bloody obviousness of this fact is available to view on the Qantas EBA thread on Pprune as late as 3rd March.

Qantas was threatening it’s Long Haul pilots that if they didn’t agree to EBA10 then Qantas would buy new LH aircraft and fly them in a new non Australian entity!

Yet today, Qantas has its hand up for a government bail out claiming to be an Australian f@34ing icon like a Koala bear!

QANTAS CAN’T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS!!

Furthermore, Qantas has outsourced all its maintenance and overhaul overseas. It employs foreign cabin crew where possible and does everything else it can to minimise exposure to Australian labor costs.

Therefore it is NOT an Australian airline, except when it suits.


My objection to Qantas is also economic. Direct international flights are critical to regional development because overseas investors and customers want fast direct access to industry. Qantas, if it were a national airline, would arrange its schedules to avoid favouring Sydney over other Australian Capitals. It does no such thing.

Then look at its domestic vandalism. International Tourism in Noosa and Hamilton Island was killed when the Qantas flights to Maroochydore and Hammy were substituted with Jetstar just ask them.

Qantas contributes nothing to Australia whatsoever except local jobs that are worth less than the car industry we had. I guess Holden, Toyota and Nissan wouldn’t have been “let go” if they had Chairman’s lounges.

As for the Chairman’s lounge, I hope it’s turned into a Coronavirus hotbed. It’s sheer bribery.


https://www.pprune.org/australia-new-zealand-pacific/630146-qantas-ea10-busted-secret-rin-3.html

[Keg]

Qantas was threatening it’s Long Haul pilots that if they didn’t agree to EBA10 then Qantas would buy new LH aircraft and fly them in a new non Australian entity!

Not entirely correct. It was to be an external entity to the current mainline pilots. It wasn’t necessarily going to be a foreign one. I’m quite sure it didn’t need to be.

The mention of ‘Chinese pilots’ at the time was in reference to the many expats flying for the various China Southern, Eastern, etc returning to Australia to fly for Qantas in this ‘external entity’.

[George Glass]

Sunfish , instead of another rant bleating about some perceived injustice , has it ever occurred to you that there is another explanation ?
QF mainline withdrew from Maroochydore because nobody was paying fully fare Business Class. Maybe you were one of them ? Same at Gold Coast. And until recently Hobart. No conspiracy required. QF hubs out of Sydney , not just for historical reasons , but because that’s how you fill a B747 or A380.Once demand grew direct Melbourne- LAX , and Brisbane- LAX were ,in fact , commenced . Again no conspiracy required. No “vandalism” either.
QF does not have a social obligation to provide mainline services to anywhere you see fit. Its a business.
Holden went bust because management couldn’t justify the investment required to develop a new product line in a market that had lost interest in its current line . Again no conspiracy required. QF would go the same way if hard decisions aren’t made.
Its a big bad world out there. Frothing at the mouth diatribes don’t change reality.

[normanton]

Ken, Qantas is NOT a national airline. It is a Sydney based International carrier with no allegiance to any country except when it suits it.

The classic, glaring, sheer bloody obviousness of this fact is available to view on the Qantas EBA thread on Pprune as late as 3rd March.

Qantas was threatening it’s Long Haul pilots that if they didn’t agree to EBA10 then Qantas would buy new LH aircraft and fly them in a new non Australian entity!

Yet today, Qantas has its hand up for a government bail out claiming to be an Australian f@34ing icon like a Koala bear!

QANTAS CAN’T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS!!

Furthermore, Qantas has outsourced all its maintenance and overhaul overseas. It employs foreign cabin crew where possible and does everything else it can to minimise exposure to Australian labor costs.

Therefore it is NOT an Australian airline, except when it suits.


My objection to Qantas is also economic. Direct international flights are critical to regional development because overseas investors and customers want fast direct access to industry. Qantas, if it were a national airline, would arrange its schedules to avoid favouring Sydney over other Australian Capitals. It does no such thing.

Then look at its domestic vandalism. International Tourism in Noosa and Hamilton Island was killed when the Qantas flights to Maroochydore and Hammy were substituted with Jetstar just ask them.

Qantas contributes nothing to Australia whatsoever except local jobs that are worth less than the car industry we had. I guess Holden, Toyota and Nissan wouldn’t have been “let go” if they had Chairman’s lounges.

As for the Chairman’s lounge, I hope it’s turned into a Coronavirus hotbed. It’s sheer bribery.


https://www.pprune.org/australia-new-zealand-pacific/630146-qantas-ea10-busted-secret-rin-3.html
There is just so much wrong with your facts is laughable. Off you go Sunfish, into the sunset.

[Sunfish]

Glass: QF does not have a social obligation to provide mainline services to anywhere you see fit. Its a business.

Correct. It’s a business. It is not worth bailing out because it’s no more Australian than McDonalds by its own admission.

[C441]

Correct. It’s a business. It is not worth bailing out because it’s no more Australian than McDonalds by its own admission.

Would you then withdraw any assistance to Virgin for the same reason?

And then when we have seen off C-19, we would be reliant on foreign carriers to provide all airline services to the whole of Australia. How do you think that would work out in regional areas if the regional carriers were reliant on on-carraige agreements with overseas airlines with nothing other than commercial interests? What do you think the airfares would look like when foreign carriers are not constrained in any way, shape or form by the ACCC or anyone else?

You may not like Qantas' Sydney centric position but the alternative of no Australian national carriers is far worse.

[The Baron]

Okay, Alan Joyce is right. Virgin management or the lack of proper management has put them in a position where they will not survive without government intervention. No argument about that. Are we ready for another dose of what happened when Qantas had a virtual monopoly on the domestic market? Ansett collapse and a very weak Virgin ring a bell? That's what Alan really wants, to be the sole player. To ensure competition the government really has to prop Virgin up. The only way to do this would be to bring back the regulation of air jtravel, i.e. the 2 airline system. Sack the Virgin board, they're oxygen thieves. Appoint an Administrator and make them account for every public cent. Make Qantas account for every public cent as well.

[Sunfish]

Open the skies. Cut Qantas loose. We paid a premium to these Sydney thieves for thirty years. Qantas COSTS more jobs than its worth.

[SandyPalms]

You're not very clever Sunfish. Replace Australian jobs with non-australian jobs to make it more Australian? You're a fruitcake. Amen

[longjohn]

So are we propping up Optus as well if it starts to wobble?
How about Coles or Woolies?

[itsnotthatbloodyhard]

Sunfish, you’ve made a number of recent posts about QF that haven’t included the specific word ‘Sydneycentric’ (if indeed it is a word). Could you please revert to normal practice? It’s spoiling the drinking game we’ve got going here.

[normanton]

Open the skies. Cut Qantas loose. We paid a premium to these Sydney thieves for thirty years. Qantas COSTS more jobs than its worth.
Back into that man cave thanks mate. You speak utter rubbish.

[ABP]

So are we propping up Optus as well if it starts to wobble?
How about Coles or Woolies?

Yes I think they should! However, if one folds, it does not leave a monopoly. If VA or QF fold, it would. Aviation is a different industry that has a wide industry and consumer impact if a monopoly was to prevail.

[longjohn]

I do not subscribe to the evil monopoly theory.

Firstly, you are talking Qantas Domestic and Jetstar Domestic?

Qantas International has competition, if anything VAI is barely worth mentioning in this regard.
QantasLink has REX
Network has Cobham, Skippers and Alliance.

So regulate them, or force them to sell Jetstar.

Efficient solutions that do not involve propping up inefficient foreign owned businesses with my tax $$

[Chris2303]

So regulate them, or force them to sell Jetstar.

Sell JQ and it will close. There is too much provided to JQ by QF off balance sheet that JQ would never be able to afford

[ECAMACTIONSCOMPLETE]

how does QF subsidise JQ domestically? We’ve all heard the rumours about international losing money/being propped up by QF but I don’t think many people doubt the Aussie domestic operation is highly profitable

[Des Dimona]

S&P has effectively placed VAH on a CCC credit watch with uncertainty and there may be questions of group survival beyond June with the existing cash reserves.

In view of the deputy PM's comments this morning about not nationalising airlines, if the government wants a competitive airline sector, this may present somewhat of a challenge.

[Chris2303]

how does QF subsidise JQ domestically? We’ve all heard the rumours about international losing money/being propped up by QF but I don’t think many people doubt the Aussie domestic operation is highly profitable

It's been discussed on here before about maintenance and fuel being charged to QF

[ECAMACTIONSCOMPLETE]

It's been discussed on here before about maintenance and fuel being charged to QF

So because it’s been discussed on PPRUNE it has to true!!

with tiger essentially disappearing, JQ will be the sole LCC in the Aussie market. QF needs JQ to stop another operator setting up shop in Australia. We’ve already seen off TT and virgin blue so we must be doing something right.

JQ ain’t going anywhere

[ddrwk]

So because it’s been discussed on PPRUNE it has to true!!


and yet you posed the initial question to this forum? :ugh:

[ECAMACTIONSCOMPLETE]

and yet you posed the initial question to this forum? :ugh:

thats a fair point!

I guess what I was getting at was that there are some ideas that have been discussed so many times that guys convince themselves that they are facts.

My counter point would be why would qantas prop up a loss making entity for all these years and continuously lie to the ASX in the process (which is of course, illegal)?

Or is it maybe possible that Jetstar does in fact turn a profit.

[SecretAngel]

thats a fair point!

I guess what I was getting at was that there are some ideas that have been discussed so many times that guys convince themselves that they are facts.

My counter point would be why would qantas prop up a loss making entity for all these years and continuously lie to the ASX in the process (which is of course, illegal)?

Or is it maybe possible that Jetstar does in fact turn a profit.
Even if JQ isn't profitable (which I think is unlikely, for the reasons you say), it very plainly serves an important strat fix role for the Qantas Group. It allows the Group to capture a large proportion of the leisure and VFR traffic at a lower cost, while focusing QF itself on targeting corporate and premium leisure traffic. Without JQ, either:

VA would be free to make larger profits from the segments that JQ covers, giving it a much stronger base to compete with QF as a hybrid carrier, or
QF would have had to heavily restructure itself to become a hybrid carrier, covering low cost and premium traffic.

​​​​​

[Chris2303]

QF would have had to heavily restructure itself to become a hybrid carrier, covering low cost and premium traffic.​​​​​

It's going to have to go through a MAJOR restructure anyway

[Window heat]

Qantas could cover the JQ model overnight, using QLink and the 737. The Dash8’s are more comfortable and cheaper to run than the A320 for domestic sectors. The back 10 rows on every 737 become LCC with pay for everything service.

The Virgin story is the biggie though. I love the line that QF should get an incrementally large package if VA does. S Curran was on the TV a few weeks back saying VA were cashed up and would ride out the storm in a healthy state. I remember being stunned as that is at odds with what I’ve heard for a long time.

[Slezy9]

The Dash8’s are more comfortable and cheaper to run than the A320 for domestic sectors.

Cheaper yes. How are Dash8's more comfortable than an A320?

[layman]

For me, a Dash-8, even for Canberra-Sydney is starting to get a bit tedious. Longer sectors: no thanks - unless I can trade off comfort against a substantially reduced ticket price.

[das Uber Soldat]

The Dash8’s are more comfortable and cheaper to run than the A320 for domestic sectors.
Hahaa. What?

[ECAMACTIONSCOMPLETE]

Qantas could cover the JQ model overnight, using QLink and the 737. The Dash8’s are more comfortable and cheaper to run than the A320 for domestic sectors.

What??

So you want to put Dash 8s on MEL-OOL sectors and further? And it’ll be cheaper and more comfortable?!

Have a look at the JQ network, I’d say at least half of our flying is over 2 hours. And a lot of the routes have 5-6 A321 flights a day (pre Coronavirus). How many dash 8s/ back 10 rows of a 737 are you planning on using

[das Uber Soldat]

Off topic I know, but is JQ completely grounded? There have been no aircraft in the air all morming.
There is a small operation In April based out of Melbourne with a skeleton crew.