Bolivian air force crash

[Tiger G]

Ouch:

https://www.liveleak.com/view?t=9v0Or_1584990194

[just another jocky]

Thoughts with their families and colleagues.

[Asturias56]

Horrible........ RIP :(

[meleagertoo]

That was entirely predictable, wasn't it?
Darwin Award candidates, both of them. One for doing it and the other for not stopping him.

[sycamore]

Bit harsh Mel...but we all have our own thoughts......

[212man]

10 ft entry height - what could possibly go wrong?

[Islandlad]

That was entirely predictable, wasn't it?
Darwin Award candidates, both of them. One for doing it and the other for not stopping him.
A crowd in front of the hangars. Were they holding his beer? Bet this was not the first time that has been done there.

​​​​Scary but do-able,I should think; until the roll stopped. I know that is obvious. Question is; why stop the roll? All my aeros were/are done above 3000 agl, so would not attempt to answer my own question.

They would have been confident of the outcome going in. Ray Hanna did most if not all his rolling going up hill (always exceptions I know). Did that give him a big margin for error? It kept him alive.

RIP

[VeeEffArrrrgh]

Question is; why stop the roll?

I thought that, but I'm assuming G/A-LOC.

[Mogwi]

Looks to me as if they were attempting an aileron roll with an upward vector - but ran out of aileron authority as the airspeed rapidly decreased. Distinct adverse yaw in the initial stages of the roll would have increased drag considerably.

No room to escape from that.

😟

[Islandlad]

10 ft entry height - what could possibly go wrong?
10ft is generous - It looks as if the main wheels were at head height as the pull up commenced in front of the BBQ crowd. That bit was no accident.

[meleagertoo]

I suspect he stopped the roll in a panicked attempt to pull the other way, far too late.
Unlikely to be g-loc, nowhere near enough G nor for nowhere near long enough imo. He might have done better to have pulled up more.

I reckon someone forgot that when starting a barrel roll from wings level half the height of the roll will be above the starting level and half below it.

An aileron roll or even a properly executed slow roll is hazardous enough at that insane level, but stands vastly more of chance of working than a barrel roll. In any case those manoeuvres should never have been attempted without a significant up-line being established before commencing as islandlad pointed out above.

[Asturias56]

I suspect they did it on the spur of the moment - carried away by seeing all their mates out there

People often smirk on here about all the planning and pre-briefing required these days for fly-bys but that clip shows just why you should do it..................

[Islandlad]

I suspect they did it on the spur of the moment - carried away by seeing all their mates out there

There are at least 8 pairs of elbows holding phones/cameras up to record what they did. They will know if it was all 'planned' if not authorised.


People often smirk on here about all the planning and pre-briefing required these days for fly-bys but that clip shows just why you should do it.................. It wouldn't take much of a risk assessment to establish that this was marginal. That should have stopped them on the run in.

They were within feet of taking people's heads off with the wheels. Would that have stopped them in future, if they had got away with it.

I wonder how many other examples of this are on those phones?

All a sad outcome. If only someone had stepped in to short circuit it in advance.

[gums]

Salute!

The problem goes back to two things:
1) Prior planning prevents piss poor performance
2) A lack of disciplne or whatever about shining your ass unless you have done it a hundred times and the boss hasn't grounded you yet. There's established demo routines with associated practice and final approval. In other words, no improvising. (having trouble getting my message across, but it will come to me)

Back in the day, when the Earth was still cooling and Orville had just cleared me to solo, one of our new trainees decided to buzz his nearby grandparents. They got to see him attempt a roll and then prang. So for the next few months we were not allowed to fly solo missions unless in a formation. So that's why I had so many formation rides on the docket.

Make no mistake. I did wild and crazy things as a clueless yute. But I am sure there are young folks today that stretch their envelope more than the plane's envelope.

The video should be mandatory viewing for all training courses, IMHO.

We can talk about technique and control inputs and such, but the video seems to show my point "1" above.

Gums opines...

[ShyTorque]

Time and time again we've seen how dangerous a badly flown low level roll can be - sadly, this was just history repeating itself.

[Islandlad]

Time and time again we've seen how dangerous a badly flown low level roll can be -
Totally agree with that. You have to be very good to do that sort of thing. Not just think you are.


sadly, this was just history repeating itself.
How true that is. Again and again.

Was there a strong cross wind from the left? I have no idea but could that hinder the second part creating a tail wind and changing the dynamics of what could have been 'got away with' before? They were flying north, parallel to the runway orientation and partially sheltered, if the wind was strong.

[Asturias56]

Time and time again we've seen how dangerous a badly flown low level roll can be - sadly, this was just history repeating itself.


all the way back to Douglas Bader..................

[Lonewolf_50]

That hurt to watch, as a former flight instructor. :{

As the roll began I thought to myself "roll rate is kind of low"
and the next thought was
"how many times did he practice this at a higher altitude?"
because it seemed to me that the back end showed a case of 'disoriented pilot'

[Fareastdriver]

When I started flying training we would have just gone to the bar and loaded up his bar book which would have been written off at midnight.

[treadigraph]

Question: it looks to me like some right rudder is applied just before the aircraft starts to roll left - the nose yaws right. I know you are supposed to add top rudder approaching knife edge in a roll but would applying it that early in the manoeuver add a fair bit of drag? Adverse yaw?

[LOMCEVAK]

It is many years since I have flown a Zlin 242 so, hopefully, there is someone on here who has some recent experience on the type. I have also watched other online videos of one being flown aerobatically and it appears that the roll rate at the initiation of the accident manoeuvre was less than maximum. I suspect that the right yaw seen was greater than any adverse yaw so some top rudder was possibly used. I think that the fundamental problem was that the nose dropped during an attempted straight roll, as it inevitably will as a function of true airspeed and time to roll, and after 270 deg of roll the pilot attempted to correct the nose drop by pulling back on the stick. As this occurred at 90 deg of bank I suspect that left stick was still applied to achieve wings level. These inputs caused a reduction in the left roll rate and it actually appeared to have a right roll rate before impact. Therefore, the aeroplane had probably departed from controlled flight as a result of the aft stick input. This is not the first time that I have seen accidents such as this.

[treadigraph]

Thanks Lomcevak!

[SASless]

Doing aerobatics at low level is a risky business as there is scant room for error.

That being said....do it right and it is safe as houses.

But don't goof up!

I was blessed to get to know Bud Granley who certainly knows his stuff.

In an Airplane....he is a very good stick....like really good.

He begins his T-6 Texan (Harvard) routine with a Snap Roll on takeoff and has done so for many years.

I tried to find an external view of the maneuver but had to settle for the Cockpit Go Pro view.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGKmOZcLcNU

[megan]

Almost anything is possible if you have the requisite skill.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyBDEG9dg-Q

[charliegolf]

[QUOTE=megan;10731600]Almost anything is possible if you have the requisite skill.

/QUOTE]

Exactly. I'm kind of perplexed that many responders are speculating on what went wrong. What went wrong was, he decided to do it.

CG

[treadigraph]

Bud Granley's snap roll on take off - ff to 3m 50s - lovely and smooth...

https://youtu.be/1TlwuhAzwDQ?t=230

[Runaway Gun]

He does appear to close his eyes !!!!

[alwayslookingup]

Almost anything is possible if you have the requisite skill.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyBDEG9dg-Q
I read a long time ago this was taught to F104 Pilots as SOP for engine failure on take off, downward firing seat and all that.

[hoodie]

Not all F-104s had downwards firing seats; only the XF-104s and early F-104As.
http://www.ejectionsite.com/f104seat.htm

One of Roly Beamont's memoirs has a sobering description of his briefing as the first non-US test pilot to fly the type. The briefing was interrupted by a cloud of smokeon the horizon, and the pilot failed to escape. Downwards firing seat in that one he said, IIRC.

[WB627]

My Dad flew Harvard's at RAF Heaney in Rhodesia in 1942, he continued his RAF flying career until finally grounded in 1982. He described the Harvard as "unforgiving". So I would say Bud is either very brave or very foolish. As my dad would often say to me, "there are old pilots and bold pilots, but there are no old bold pilots." Before anyone starts disagreeing with him on that, there are exceptions that prove the rule, Ray Hanna and R A "Bob" Hoover spring to mind but they are very much in the minority. The other thing my dad said to me is "an aircraft is always waiting to kill you, if you let it".

[SASless]

So I would say Bud is either very brave or very foolish.

I will say rather emphatically that he is neither.....and is very capable and knows exactly what he is doing.....and that is based upon direct first hand knowledge of the Man to include having flown in a formation flight with him and his Son along with two other pilots in a mixed formation of airplanes and helicopters.

Perhaps you might recall he was in his mid-70's when that video and interview was made.

He is old....and by some definitions a bold man....but he is for sure one very skilled aerobatic pilot that knows his stuff and flies very precisely.

As you criticized a Man without having any direct knowledge of the fellow.....I would suggest you are being crass and rude. Did your old Daddy teach you to be that way or did he teach you to respect your Elders?

[megan]

Life is always waiting to kill you WB, eg 341 drowning and submersion while in or falling into bath-tub.

https://danger.mongabay.com/injury_death.htm

[Islandlad]

My Dad flew Harvard's at RAF Heaney in Rhodesia in 1942, he continued his RAF flying career until finally grounded in 1982. He described the Harvard as "unforgiving". So I would say Bud is either very brave or very foolish. As my dad would often say to me, "there are old pilots and bold pilots, but there are no old bold pilots." Before anyone starts disagreeing with him on that, there are exceptions that prove the rule, Ray Hanna and R A "Bob" Hoover spring to mind but they are very much in the minority. The other thing my dad said to me is "an aircraft is always waiting to kill you, if you let it".
I only have a couple of hours in a T6 and one hour in a Stearman. They are 'big'. Nothing like a C172.
From looking at the video I would not say Bud is a bold pilot. He is also old so he must have got something right (SASless knows more).

Between old and bold there are good, careful pilots. Probably a bit like your dad. The sort I strive to be.

Aircraft are not forgiving or trying to kill you (they are not Lions) Put any one of them in the wrong place and you have let yourself down.

Getting back on topic - from where the crew of the Zlin started that roll .... one of them in that cockpit was very bold. Neither will become old.