ASIC - Surely this must be the end

[sprocket check]

Soooo.... there are now no RPT aircraft servicing most aerodromes in Australia (or shortly there won't be).

Can we now, as some kind of quasi organised internet blogging aviation interested bunch get a message to the Attorney General to finally drop this idiotic scheme?

sc

[junior.VH-LFA]

What an awesome example of prioritisation.

Yep, while the government is stretched to the limit, officials swamped in both health and economic concerns, lets use THIS period of world history to push the anti ASIC agenda.

I hate paying for fee too but there’s a time and a place and this ain’t it.

[Sunfish]

I think all people are doing is observing that ASICs are irrelevant in a post pandemic world......along with a heap of other regulations.

[sprocket check]

Yes Junior,
I was just getting started. While some run around buying up dunny rolls... Priorities eh?
I hope you're ready for the brave new world, there is a lot of shedding going to happen. And while on the subject of history, the governments around the world including this one have used 'challenging' situations to push exactly the agenda they liked... without fear, recourse or consultation. How and why did we get the ASIC in the first place? And the only place I ever got checked was... wait for it... Connellan.

Now is exactly the time to shed the cobwebs.

But then it's interesting to note all defence leave has been cancelled...
How exactly is the government stretched to the limit? I don't see any public servants worrying too much, what I'm hearing is "I'm glad I've got a government job".
I guess (but I don't know)... you'll be ok Junior

[Roy Nolland]

Any changes at all will be driven by a long term reduction in the National Terrorism Threat Advisory. The Department has been pretty clear with industry that there will be no lessening of security requirements at all in the wake of Covid19.
I don't see any public servants worrying too much, what I'm hearing is "I'm glad I've got a government job". Flippant and childish statements like that do little to give your argument any weight.

[spektrum]

What an awesome example of prioritisation.

Yep, while the government is stretched to the limit, officials swamped in both health and economic concerns, lets use THIS period of world history to push the anti ASIC agenda.

I hate paying for fee too but there’s a time and a place and this ain’t it.

Plenty of people sitting around twiddling their thumbs. What is wrong with a bit of social interaction online discussing something that has irritated every aviator for a very long time?

I do notice Junior, that you are VERY opinionated on what people should or shouldn't discuss on here. You're by all means entitled to voice such opinions but please take a moment to reflect on yourself.

[finestkind]

Roy it is "oft" stated "thank god I have a Government job" in times of lay off's. I don't see this situation being any different to previous ones. I have family members and friends in these near unsackable or great severance jobs.

[junior.VH-LFA]

There’s nothing wrong at all with wanting to get rid of ASICS, I hate them as much as anyone, they’re nothing but cash rort that do nothing to improve security.

I question the timing.

That said, in a time where aviation is hurting so much, maybe the savings will help.

[sprocket check]

There’s nothing wrong at all with wanting to get rid of ASICS, I hate them as much as anyone, they’re nothing but cash rort that do nothing to improve security.

I question the timing.

That said, in a time where aviation is hurting so much, maybe the savings will help.

Thank you Junior, that's like lighting up the runway in Nowra :D

[sprocket check]

Any changes at all will be driven by a long term reduction in the National Terrorism Threat Advisory. The Department has been pretty clear with industry that there will be no lessening of security requirements at all in the wake of Covid19.
Flippant and childish statements like that do little to give your argument any weight.
Thanks for the clarification Roy. Though the statement was neither childish nor flippant, rather a true reflection of attitude among some mandarins within my sphere. I watched Get Smart last night with my daughter, the first and second sentence are like Get Smart and Yes Minister having sex in the back of the panel van.

[Sunfish]

Must get out my shoe phone......

[Roy Nolland]

Sprocket, I could think of so many responses on so many levels but it's clear I may as well talk to the cat.
Petition away champ.

[Lead Balloon]

It may be that, having wielded practically unfettered powers during this crisis, various pollies and bureaucrats will have ‘got the taste’.

Will be interesting to see how all these rules are going to be enforced. How do heavy fines alter the behaviour of people who have no money? Where will the new gaols be built and who will run them?

What practical security or safety purpose will be achieved by arresting or fining me for arriving at an empty airport with an expired ASIC?

There are plans to turn the airports into makeshift hospitals.

[TBM-Legend]

Typical Australian responses here about flaunting the rules. Bit like those who head to Bondi Beach and jump over the barriers.Fight for food and TP in supermarkets.

On Sunday I lost a great friend in Italy to this scourge. He was a national aerobatic pilot and warbird owner and flyer plus supported aviation. His son is a corporate pilot in Italy too.

Let's focus and work to get over this. Medical staff and responders need our support.

BS about ASIC cards etc etc is just that

[Lead Balloon]

It’s not about “flaunting” the rules. It’s about critically analysing the rules compliance with which is and is not going to help get us through the crisis.

What practical security or safety (or health) purpose will be achieved by arresting or fining me for arriving at an empty airport with an expired ASIC?

Walk me through the purpose of allowing school kids to be within 1.5 metres of each other at school (and within 1.5 metres of teachers who may be grandparents), but banning them from being within 1.5 metres of each other at the beach or in parks and keeping them away from their grandparents, and allowing them to go home each day to their parents who are nurses, doctors, fire fighters, policeman, ADF members etc.

[finestkind]

Thread creep. Population of India 1.3 billion. Cases of virus 330, deaths 4. Now we know everything you read or get off the net is "110%" accurate however it does beg the question what are the first world countries doing wrong. Vietnam pop 96 million, over 100 cases no deaths (as yet) and appears to be business as usual (no economic close downs) but everyone wears a mask, everyone washes hands, every taxi is cleaned after use, every seat in every restaurant/café is cleaned after use etc. I don't believe these countries have a far better medical system than other parts of the world so what is the message?

[aroa]

Dont worry...the control freaks in this very authoritarian country will make sure the ASIC (their 'job') and revenue continues.
No RPT at yr regional airport any more? An ASIC will be reqired if there are any charter operators there.
No charter operators in existence?. An ASIC will be required if there are any pvt aircraft parked there.
If the airfield is abandoned and everyone has cleared out, an ASIC will be required to set foot on any airport property.
If you've given up aviation because there isnt any, you will still be required to get one because you had one before. And the ASIC is the only way to find out if you've been a very naughty boy or girl.

[VH DSJ]

I hate paying for fee too but there’s a time and a place and this ain’t it.

Your employer should be paying for it! Not you!

[Super Cecil]

Your employer should be paying for it! Not you!
Funny man............................you live in the real world?

[Stretch06]

Funny man............................you live in the real world?

I know of many companies that reimburse their pilots for the ASIC. I guess it is the same as the argument over paying the award. Plenty do above and beyond, but there are also those who we all know don't.

[currawong]

"Though the statement was neither childish nor flippant,"

We will be the judge of that.

:rolleyes:

[sprocket check]

Roy:

Petition away champ.

In terms of petitioning anything from our bureaucracy, I have about as much faith in that as I have of me walking on Mars. Especially when I would most likely be petitioning you, who has absolutely no interest in hearing it.

Anyway, why did you choose my thread to post your only two comments in 18 years of hanging out on PPRUNE?

[Stickshift3000]

Anyway, why did you choose my thread to post your only two comments in 18 years of hanging out on PPRUNE?

Fair question..!

[josephfeatherweight]

Thread creep. Population of India 1.3 billion. Cases of virus 330, deaths 4. Now we know everything you read or get off the net is "110%" accurate however it does beg the question what are the first world countries doing wrong. Vietnam pop 96 million, over 100 cases no deaths (as yet) and appears to be business as usual (no economic close downs) but everyone wears a mask, everyone washes hands, every taxi is cleaned after use, every seat in every restaurant/café is cleaned after use etc. I don't believe these countries have a far better medical system than other parts of the world so what is the message?
i reckon you could be making a call a bit early on this one - my guess is that it is only very early days in India and this virus will absolutely explode there. Just my 2 cents! I’ll buy you a beer if I’m wrong - when the pubs eventually open again!
Anyway, ASICs - absolute waste of time and money...

[VH DSJ]

Thread creep. Population of India 1.3 billion. Cases of virus 330, deaths 4. Now we know everything you read or get off the net is "110%" accurate however it does beg the question what are the first world countries doing wrong. Vietnam pop 96 million, over 100 cases no deaths (as yet) and appears to be business as usual (no economic close downs) but everyone wears a mask, everyone washes hands, every taxi is cleaned after use, every seat in every restaurant/café is cleaned after use etc. I don't believe these countries have a far better medical system than other parts of the world so what is the message?

It's the same reason why they don't get 'Bombay belly' (or the Bali belly equivalent when in Bali) but we in the west do. Their immune systems are probably a lot more robust than ours because of their greater exposure to less hygienic surroundings.

[jonkster]

re India - numbers reported would be the results of COVID testing (both numbers of cases and deaths). You would have to know how widespread their testing is before comparing numbers between countries. Many countries have very limited testing ability at the moment so confirmed cases and deaths will be under reported.

[Lead Balloon]

For those who think the data out of India reflects the reality there, I have shares in a certain bridge that I’ll sell you at the equivalent of the Virgin Australia share price. I hope I’m wrong and Indians have some miraculous resistance that will be discovered shortly.

Back to the topic: I think the pilot population is such an easy - now even more weakened - and lucrative target for the ‘security’ bureaucracy that it won’t give up the ASIC system without a fight. Indeed, a ‘dedicated’ bureaucrat might suggest to his or her bosses that the ASIC system could be used to regulate the flights of private and charter pilots in the interests of the health of the community in the current emergency.

Security and health! Who’s going to argue with that?

[currawong]

Yeah yeah, the ASIC is a pain.

So is the annual medical.

And the sim checks/ APC/ BFR or whatever other checking regime you are a part of.

Come to think of it, the theory exams are just plain onerous.

Get rid of the lot. First person to the machine gets the seat. Should go well....

[Lead Balloon]

You’re suggesting that activities and processes that contribute to competence and therefore safety have an equal value as activities and processes that contribute nothing to competence or safety or security? Interesting perspective.

[currawong]

I think it is an interesting perspective that you think background should not be part of the overall picture regarding aircrew suitability.

[Lead Balloon]

But you do realise it’s possible to jump into an aircraft and fly it into an airport without being the holder of an ASIC or even a pilot’s licence?

There is no bubble around security controlled aerodromes that is impenetrable to an aircraft flown by a person who has no ASIC or pilot’s licence. People like “terrorists”.

And those people are not going to land and wait for the AFP to turn up and check. They just crash the aircraft into the PM’s taxiing jet.

If you don’t mind the cost and inconvenience of the facade, good for you. Others mind.

[currawong]

Of course that is possible and largely out of our control.

Why not apply due diligence to the part that IS under our control?

[Lead Balloon]

What you call “appl[ication] of due diligence to the part this IS under our control” others like me call “a tax on the law abiding”. We are presumed terrorists and spend our time and money to prove that we are not, and those who aren’t “under our control” couldn’t be bothered and don’t need to be if they want to achieve something bad.

[currawong]

Interested to hear what your position is on Blue Cards for persons that work with children and the vulnerable.

Or, do you background check your prospective employees?

Or run a DAMP programme?

All of those presume something too.

[Lead Balloon]

Again, false equivalence. Terrorists don’t need to submit themselves to these processes in order to achieve their aims. The ‘lawbreakers paradox’ doesn’t apply to people who are prepared to do anything, irrespective of the cost, monetary or personal, and irrespective of the criminal sanction.

But you need not worry: Pilots continue to be an easy and weakened target for the ‘security’ bureaucracy.

[currawong]

Got news for you Lead, you will not even get a job at a servo these days without a current police check.

Does nothing to prevent someone coming in off the street and robbing the place.

But it does alleviate some of the risk from having an enemy within.

Anyway, answer the question...

[Sunfish]

The problem, Currawong, is that the ASIC is a legal figleaf for the Government, nothing more. As others have pointed out, it is not an obstacle to terrorist activity unless it is actively policed and that doesn’t happen outside airports that have no GA operations anyway (eg. YMML).

The assumption is that the majority of terrorists are like pedophiles. They will be repeat offenders hence a record check will stop them. The reality is terrorists are “one off” offenders and an ASIC check will not find the really dangerous ones - just the occasional idiot who mouths off in some mosque.

So we are stuck with something that isn’t policed. That isn’t going to identify dangerous terrorists. In other words can’t prevent an attack outside YMML, YSSY, etc. In other words an ineffective waste of time and a huge cost burden on law abiding people.

It is one of a range of “initiatives “ that protect the Government “brand” that have huge, expensive, unjust and counterproductive consequences right across Australian society.

Examples? The entire “domestic violence” industry for starters. Then there is the “consorting” laws that prevent me from ever talking to a black sheep nephew with a view to his rehabilitation because doing that would immediately prevent other relatives in the legal industry from ever talking to me. There are dozens of “catch 22” laws like that and the ASIC is in my opinion just another one.

[currawong]

Your assumption is that the ASIC programme is directed only at terrorism.

It is not.

Check Aviation security relevant offences in your regs.

Of course it has little hope of detecting a clean skin.

But it does go some way towards detecting those that are not.

Would you be happy to see a recently returned Jihadist airside? Or someone just out of a life sentence?

[spektrum]

Currawong, stop posting before you make more of a fool of yourself. Leady has already moped the floor with you. Get off the internet and walk it off.

[thorn bird]

Currawong is entitled to his "Opinions", good grief our whole industry is governed by opinions, our regulations are written in such a way that the opinions of the governors is paramount. Try arguing with an FOI over a safety issue some time, your opinion means nothing to them other than a nuisance they will not tolerate.

Its the way these things get inflicted upon us that rankles.

Someone within the ruling class has a brain fart and puts forward their opinion. Does anyone within the bureaucracy do risk analysis? cost analysis?examine other jurisdictions? Is the proposal fit for purpose?

An ASIC will not in any way prevent a determined terrorist from committing mayhem even with ASIC. There are far easier means at their disposal for committing mayhem than aviation, a forty ton semi into lunchtime crowd for example. Do all truck drivers require an ASIC?

I imagine a cost analysis by a bureaucrat would largely be "what's it going to cost us to implement" against "how much return can we gouge to recover that cost with a tidy profit or an income stream for someone, as they say "a nice little earner".There would be very little consideration of the impact on those they are inflicting their brain fart on.

The country with the largest aviation industry in the world has not been inflicted with an ASIC requirement, even after suffering the most grievous aviation related terrorist act.

I have heard many opinions around the industry on how an ASIC could be made more useful and thus less onerous and perhaps a better tool for those who monitor security. One I heard was to include biometric data on the card with the ability to swipe it to open access to GA ramps at airports, thus recording who and when someone accessed the ramp. The flaw of course would be a stolen ASIC could be used, that risk could be negated by a pin code assigned to each card entered for each swipe.

Then again all of that could be accommodated in a pilots licence with photo ID along with everyones licence details such as ratings etc, rather that the back to the future paper document we have to lug around now.

As far as Currawong's opinion goes I respectfully disagree, the ASIC is not fit for purpose, there are other less onerous and less expensive ways to achieve the allusion of security.

Regarding DAMP.

I have been told more than thirty million dollars was expended to implement it, just for the regulator alone. A lot of money to address a risk that may or may not have existed. Does a DAMP manual of biblical proportions prevent or deter a determined alcoholic pilot? How many alcoholic pilots are out there? In my career I have known many pilots who like a beer, I've never encountered one who flew under the influence, then again I'm probably naive.

I've never quite understood why, other than to add some income to testing facilities, a pre-employment drug and alcohol test is required. To prove what? At that time, on that day someone was sober? I know people can be stupid but it's beyond stupid to turn up for a known test under the influence.

Could just the threat of random testing achieve the same deterrent effect without the complicated extremely expensive DAMP system?

[Lead Balloon]

I respect currawong’s opinion. I just disagree with it

My perception is that currawong puts greater faith than I do in the efficacy of these bureaucratic processes to achieve the outcomes they claim. My (educated) guess is that I have a deeper insight into these processes than does currawong.

But it’s likely currawong’s opinion will continue to prevail. These processes provide busy-work and comfort for many.

Meanwhile, I’m guessing I become a criminal next week. ASIC expires. As I haven’t been asked to produce an ASIC by anyone in authority at a security controlled aerodrome for years, I’m guessing that any failure to have a current ASIC will go undetected. Which kinda makes my point.

[KRviator]

Regarding DAMP.

I have been told more than thirty million dollars was expended to implement it, just for the regulator alone. A lot of money to address a risk that may or may not have existed. Does a DAMP manual of biblical proportions prevent or deter a determined alcoholic pilot? How many alcoholic pilots are out there? In my career I have known many pilots who like a beer, I've never encountered one who flew under the influence, then again I'm probably naive.

I've never quite understood why, other than to add some income to testing facilities, a pre-employment drug and alcohol test is required. To prove what? At that time, on that day someone was sober? I know people can be stupid but it's beyond stupid to turn up for a known test under the influence.

Could just the threat of random testing achieve the same deterrent effect without the complicated extremely expensive DAMP system?I've been in another industry for over a decade, but even in Rail, I've seen probably more than a dozen people lose their job over the last decade due to blowing the bag, or otherwise failing a drug test. Not just train driver's, but shunter's, and even a supervisor. Random testing sadly is required, because some people just don't get the message.

Then again, other companies aren't as stringent about the testing process - as evidenced by a recent ATSB investigation (https://www.atsb.gov.au/media/5777236/ro-2018-001_final.pdf) where a Driver failed the test after an incident, yet had not had a random test in the 14 years he was with V/Line

[Sunfish]

KRaviator:Random testing sadly is required, because some people just don't get the message.


.....And the answer to that is; “so what?”

This is not to downplay the seriousness of the offence but to ask the question whether the cost justifies the result - that’s a risk management calculation.

Considering that Mining and similar companies have the same programs, I can probably answer my own question, it is cost effective, but that doesn’t mean the calculations shouldn’t be done.

What some of the pilots here don’t understand is that “public opinion” of what is a serious risk and what is acceptable behaviour is constantly changing. Those same people get blindsided by change.

Examples:

- As a kid I rode home on the tram with a .303 SMLE on one arm and my school bag on the other.

- Ansett and TAA management ran the two airline policy each lunchtime from the bar at Mac’s.

- Dangerous driving - speeding had to be proved by police.

- Divorce and casual sex could get you fired.

- Homosexuality was a crime. Lesbians didn’t exist.

- illegal drug use was a serious crime.

- Certain books, plays and movies were officially banned. Sex, nudity and swearing were verboten.


Now look at what’s approved and what isn’t.......

Furthermore, Coronavirus is going to see all that change again! For example, we have just passed peak feminism, green BS and LBGTQwhatever. The coming recession will sweep that away, and with it probably the ASIC and much expensive government regulation.

[aroa]

Jeeeez Sunny. I hope yre right.
My take would be that Bureaurats will rise from the ashes, rebuild their Empires and continue to do what they do
Over regulate, waste collossal amounts of taxpayers money on 'brain farts' and continue to enjoy the troughs.
I do hope I'm wrong.

[sprocket check]

I fear the same aroa, in the near future it is more likely your entire medical records will be carried on your person in the form of a "secure encrypted ID card" readable by any "official of state". It will be justified on the basis that 'post COVID-19', in order to "protect" society at large, all members of said society will need to prove that they have been vaccinated, or otherwise 'safe' from risk of infection. It will extend to your entire medical history. And if the fallout from COVID-19 extends any length of time (12+months) that will be just the beginning. ASIC will pale into insignificance and all will forget the test case that it was on how well a community can organise to protect itself from infringement of basic rights and undue burden by bureaucracy.

The simple fact this 'flippant and childish' thread has drawn so much response is proof enough for me of the poignancy of the subject.

[Lead Balloon]

Your assumption is that the ASIC programme is directed only at terrorism.

It is not.

Check Aviation security relevant offences in your regs.

Of course it has little hope of detecting a clean skin.

But it does go some way towards detecting those that are not.

Would you be happy to see a recently returned Jihadist airside? Or someone just out of a life sentence?Sorry currawong - so much going on that I’m losing track of the various threads.

Do you believe the ASIC system prevents “recently returned Jihadists” and “someone just out of a life sentence” from being airside?

(And by the way: Why, precisely, should “someone just out of a life sentence” be prohibited from “being airside”?)

I’m genuinely interested in your perspective, because it evidently results in you supporting the ASIC system. The onus is on us detractors to convince supporters otherwise.

[Stickshift3000]

And by the way: Why, precisely, should “someone just out of a life sentence” be prohibited from “being airside”?


That is a bit wrong. People make mistakes (and pay for it); doesn't make them suicidal terrorists.

[Lead Balloon]

Even if it does make them suicidal terrorists, apparently it’s ok for them to be wandering around “landside”. Does not make sense to me.

[AlphaVictorFoxtrot]

Hate to be "that guy" again, but what about this (you'll never guess where this is implemented)

Instead of requiring an ASIC for people who fly the planes, require it for the people meeting these criteria:

Has to have access to the secured side of a security controlled airport (domestic or international) as part of their job duties? You get an ASIC Level 1 - which should encompass criminal, background, and intelligence (as in, spy stuff) checks.
Have to have access to the unsecured side of an airport as part of your job duties? ASIC Level 2 for you, with corresponding reduced requirements.
Want to train to fly? Apply for a Level 3 card (with all the background check fun), but be provided with a Level 4 while you wait so you can actually train.
Waiting for your Level X card? You get a temporary Level 4 card, which requires an escort from a Level 1. Crucially, that level 1 doesn't have to be a pilot!
Include biometrics in the card
Define the "security controlled airport" as one having 24/7, on-site security presence, biometrics checks, and proper fencing (not the 1m tall fence easily scaled by a child I've seen in some places.
Make application charges to be cost recovery only, in legislation or regulation.


This way, you've solved a few problems: 1) you're targeting appropriate people, since terrorists (unless they're sleepers... And how many of those have there been in the history of aviation?) aren't really the flying job holding type; 2) the recreational and private flyers don't need to get it - since they're unpredictable transients anyways, they'd need to comply with whatever by-laws or rules their field has for them; 3) students and instructors don't get cornholed with unnecessarily wait times in the training world; and 4) instead of just designating a place "security controlled" for no good reason, councils and airport owners might have to do some sort of cost vs benefit analysis of designating themselves as such.

Something along those lines seems better than the current system, while also not as drastic or dramatic as simply throwing the whole ASIC baby out with the bath water

[Lead Balloon]

Seems to me to be some steps is the right direction.

I suppose that in a coherent process the first question would be: What is the purpose of the ASIC system? The purpose.since terrorists (unless they're sleepers... And how many of those have there been in the history of aviation?) aren't really the flying job holding type;It’s easy for terrorists to get airside at a security controlled airport. They can just fly there from somewhere that’s not security controlled. The fact that they haven’t yet in Australia is evidently not a consequence of the ASIC system.

What is the purpose of the ASIC system?

[Sunfish]

OK I’ll bite.

The purpose of the ASIC system was to remove anyone with a criminal background from the front end of Aviation industry. The criminal background check does that. It also conveniently dovetails with CASA regulations which criminalise breaches of regulations. It thus helps CASA control industry employment or participation. This is also what was allegedly done to Glen Buckley although not through the ASIC denial route.

In this manner “undesirables” are prevented from employment in selected industries. The practice is creeping into use more generally in my opinion and it has some rather nasty human rights implications that will surface eventually. The practice does give the general public a warm feeling.

Preventing terrorism? How? Not possible.

[Led Zeppelin]

I'd like to see the risk management case that justifies this useless ASIC system. Any person who seriously wants to get into any secure airport will research the many ways it can be done undetected.

What a joke - keeps a few people employed, but that's all. Airline or Airport ID cards achieve the same result.

ASIC and airport security are unrelated.

[Super Cecil]

I'm sure I've said this before somewhere on prune. Pilots in Australia have an ASIO check as part of their licence application, is that not enough?
A photo licence (Proper one not the rubbish photocopy that CASA came up with a few years ago) should be all that's needed for access to airfields. The current 20 pages of photocopied useless information is rubbish.
Basic information could all fit on a standard size the same as a drivers licence, or CASA could be daring and have a smart card (Also with photo) that would include all information. Sums up CASA really, licence issue hasn't changed much since 1920's. The only thing to change much is the exponential increase in regulation. SNAFU should be a term incorporated in the CASA watermark.

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

instead of just designating a place "security controlled" for no good reason, councils and airport owners might have to do some sort of cost vs benefit analysis of designating themselves as such.
Councils and Airport owners don't decide if their airport is "security controlled". That is foisted upon them by the regulator based on criteria they have no input or control over, and they are left to implement the requirements that thus ensue. They too are dealing with a bureaucracy who answers to no one.
Unfortunately, the worst atrocities have so far been committed by people (pilots or passengers) sitting in the front two seats. People with any sort of access (or means to enable access) to those seats will always be suspect.

[Ascend Charlie]

More damage has been done to aircraft by unlicensed kangaroos leaping the security fence and parking themselves on unlit runways, to ambush unsuspecting medevac aircraft in the wee small hours, than by jihadis.

[Lead Balloon]

More damage has been done to aircraft by unlicensed kangaroos leaping the security fence and parking themselves on unlit runways, to ambush unsuspecting medevac aircraft in the wee small hours, than by jihadis.
Maybe the terrorists are training the kangaroos.

I wouldn’t put it past the bastards.

What will they think of next?

[KRviator]

Maybe the terrorists are training the kangaroos.

I wouldn’t put it past the bastards.

What will they think of next?Who needs terrorists? The Seppos have been training (https://www.public.navy.mil/navwar/NIWC-Pacific/technology/Pages/mammals.aspx) and deploying dolphins for years...

[Ascend Charlie]

Yeah, but dolphins have a little trouble getting onto runways.

[AlphaVictorFoxtrot]

What is the purpose of the ASIC system?

I would argue it should serve a few purposes.

First, it's an identity card, like many workplaces have these days. Basically, a first point of "does this person belong here", quick glance kind of thing.
Second: it should be an identity verification tool (this would be where the picture and the biometrics come in). This is that newfangled "2 factor security" thing, but in the real world.
Third, it should be a confirmation of the user having passed a background check. This basically ensures that people that attempt to perform the work functions are legally allowed to perform them.

As of right now, it only really serves #1 and #3, and it's mandated for all pilots. So, it doesn't really get verified (anyone can get a card printed and laminated from the internet), and it's applied too broadly.

Councils and Airport owners don't decide if their airport is "security controlled"

That's unfortunate. That's the big thing in my proposal above, it would be pretty much left to the airport to decide whether to become security controlled (with the security standard being set by the regulator, which has to be continuously met to qualify as security controlled). Obviously, this would have to be within reason - if you're a port of entry, you would have to become security controlled - but outside of a few obvious cases like that, there's no reason for CASA to dictate those security requirements to every airport in the country. Especially when most would not warrant it even with a high bar of security.

[Lead Balloon]

You could argue that those are the purposes. Others could make different arguments. Nothing wrong with that.

But what are the actual purposes of the system now? If the actual purposes are not or cannot be identified, it is not possible to determine whether those purposes are being achieved. Nor is it possible to debate whether those purposes are worth what it costs to achieve them.

Hypothetically, if the purpose of the ASIC system was originally to “be seen to be doing something” about the 9/11 hijackings, is that a purpose that justifies the ongoing costs?

This argument is circular:Third, it should be a confirmation of the user having passed a background check. This basically ensures that people that attempt to perform the work functions are legally allowed to perform them.The ‘pass’ and ‘fail’ and what’s ‘legally allowed’ are determined by rules made by bureaucrats.

currawong appears not have had a chance to answer my question. Maybe you have a perspective: Why should a person “just out of a life sentence” be prevented from getting an ASIC? When can that person ‘pass’ the background check, or are they permanently precluded? What is it about being “just out of a life sentence” that renders a person an unacceptable risk behind the wheel of an aircraft but not a car or truck?

I’ve always been struck by the fact that many pilots are their own worst-enemy. They revel in the mystique of aviation, which merely invites more and more regulation and bureaucratic intrusion. Flying is ‘special’. We must make sure only special people - like me - can fly. People with the ‘right’ ‘background’ - like me.

But that means bureaucrats deciding what is the ‘right’ background and ferreting into everyone’s background to make that judgment.

As has been pointed out, it wasn’t that long ago that homosexuality was a criminal offence. Back in the ‘good old days’ the punishment was execution but, in a very bold and generous act by governments, it was reduced to life imprisonment. No worries about poofs in the cockpit back in those days! They were executed or rotting in prison. Now homosexuals can get pilot’s licences and even ASICs! Who knew that ‘they’ could fly just as well as ‘normal’ people and were just as trustworthy and untrustworthy?

The ‘pass’ and ‘fail’ of a ‘background check’ is just a value judgment. And that which is judged a heinous crime punishable by death one day can be an accepted part of a civilised society the next. Best to hope that your values remain acceptable to the bureaucracy!

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

there's no reason for CASA to dictate those security requirements to every airport in the country
CASA doesn't. They don't have anything to do with security or ASICs. That's the Department of Home Affairs job. They are the Security regulator. CASA is the Safety regulator. Airports, like pilots, answer to many masters.

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

(anyone can get a card printed and laminated from the internet)
An ASIC does contain certain features designed to circumvent that.

[Arctaurus]

In 2020, it is not technically difficult to reproduce an ASIC card.

ID Card reproduction technology is universal, so its naive to think that a "lookalike" ASIC card can't be created complete with hologram.

[Lead Balloon]

Ssshhhhhhh!

And don’t say, out loud, how few times anyone’s looked closely at your ASIC, even assuming you’ve displayed it.

It would reveal the system for what it is.

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

I'm certainly not naive enough to think that the cards cannot be forged. I guess they make it difficult enough to deter muggins from having a go at home with his inkjet. If someone goes to the expense and trouble of either buying the equipment to print their own, or buying a forgery on line, then they are probably not the type of person you want airside anyway.
I guess it establishes a base line. If no one is wearing anything, how do you know who should be there?. A lot of places these days require people/staff on their premises to display an ID card of some sort. An ASIC is not the be all and end all either. It is just one part of the overall security system. Just because you have one, it doesn't mean you can go wherever or do whatever you want. It is only an ID card after all. It just signifies you have undergone a standardised check.

[Squawk7700]

A decent copy would be hard to spot as a fake unless you stuck it under someone official’s nose.

A metro authorised officer told me recently that heaps of people on the train in Melbourne use fake photo copied police ID’s for free travel and they don’t usually say anything because they don’t want to accuse someone accidentally if they are actually legitimate and cause a scene.

[Horatio Leafblower]

Sprocket Check
I dunno who the hell taught you to fly but this is Crazy talk.

The end of ASIC?

A wise man, who fled communist Checkoslavakia, told me that modern Australia is a worst police state than what he fled in the 1970s.

...that was 15 years ago!
Send me a text or a PM and I will put you in touch with that guy.

[aroa]

Leaf Blower.....If you belive that are you interested in bridge sales at all ?
I suggest you get hold of the book by American author James Michener. "The Bridge at Andau " for a bit of backgrounding of that once communist State. Has that modern State regressed that badly ?
Is Australai really worse ?.
While I accept that we do live in an authoritarian democracy, and there are many rotten things happening in the State of Oz, no country is the perfect Shangri La.
Citizens of this country should take the time to think a bit about the future ,tho
"Those that give up essential rights and liberties for a bit of temporary security, deserve neither," B Franklin.
This is why CAsA and ASIC and other stupidities need addressing.

[neville_nobody]

The irony of a ASIC is that it is not a valid form of ID in Australia.

[Mach E Avelli]

The opportunity for licence holders, (i.e. pilots and LAMEs) to engage in some gentle civil disobedience has sadly been lost.
If - when aviation was booming - there had been an organised week where every licence holder turned up for work with a passport (for the photo) and a professional licence (for validation of occupation) while leaving their ASIC at home, it could have forced the authorities to capitulate on the requirement for certain sectors of the aviation industry to hold an ASIC.
The authorities' climb down face-saver could have been to link licences to police records, Kiwi style.

But now the aviation industry is trashed anyway, civil disobedience or industrial action won't work. In lean times history shows that there are always those willing to comply with whatever onerous hurdles are put in the way to put food on the table. When we come out the other side of this current pandemic, expect more, not fewer, limitations to our freedoms dreamed up by Big Brother - for our own good, of course.

[extralite]

In the beginning the problem was that terrorists could access an airport with the post 9/11 hysteria. The solution to that apparently was to bring in a new ID card that everyone who worked on an airport needed to get very 2 years. The terrorists would not be able to get one, and so that of course been an unsurmountable barrier to those of criminal intent. Nothing much has happened since other than tens of thousands of hours wasted by people who need to work at an airport. For those that would argue that an ASIC card has prevented anyone with criminal intentions being able to access an aircraft, spare me. Besides how easy it would be to mock one up, airports are often not well fenced or patrolled in early mornings. Plus easy to get a job as a baggage handler, cleaner and an so get an ASIC for those without a prior criminal record)

So now because things are quiet and people need to justify their job, especially ARO's as they really have bugger all to do at many airports, the "crime" is not to be without an ASIC airside, but to be not wearing one correctly. So much so that a firefighter at Ballina was reportedly either fined $5000 or threatened with one (not sure) for not wearing their ASIC correctly by the ARO. What ARO in their right mind could possible think they are doing anything constructive by pinging an airport firefighter for not wearing an ASIC card correctly? It certainly won't help the firefighters attitude, it wont save any lives, its just being a bloody nuisance. ARO's are sure developing a reputation.

To pre-empt the "well he/she could have been an imposter" reply...wouldn't asking to see the ASIC be enough? Does it really need a fine because it is not displayed in the correct manner? Personally i have kept mine in my wallet as i have found it dangling around my head when inspecting underwings etc and this is distracting. Also had a lanyard break and it fall out. So a FOD hazard as well as a security hazard. If anyone wanted to see it, it is right there. The one time i have been asked, by a Fed, they were fine with me pulling it out.

Not good enough now apparently. There is an "alert" that the "Cyber and Infrastructure Security Centre" (can you just imagine the pointy heads in Canberra there dreaming up new embuggerances every day) has commenced targeted and increased surveillance" of incorrectly worn ASIC cards. I wonder if there will ever be any pushback against this bureaucratic madness. How good would it be if just for once a change came out that actually made things easier for those working at airports. eg...ASIC for 5 years, or a passport instead of a birth certificate as ID, or a note from employer with reason to be on airport, or god forbid no ASIC but just a plausible reason to be airside and a valid ID.

[Paragraph377]

Have to agree, the ASIC is bull****. But in response to your comment, an ARO can’t fine a non-ASIC holder, only AMS can do that. And they have been doing that for a couple of years now, it’s nothing new. The big issue is that if you get pinged by AMS for not wearing your ASIC, apart from you receiving the individual fine, the aerodrome owner/operator also gets hit with a non-conformance notice as it occurred on their aerodrome. That’s why ARO’s are often so trigger happy when it comes to reprimanding a person who is operating airside without an ASIC (depending on your category of aerodrome).

As with all things Government, the requirement for an ASIC does very little towards preventing fraud, preventing unauthorised access via a step ladder over the fence at midnight, or stop people using a fake ASIC. It’s just another tool for big brother to use to monitor you, curtail your freedoms, and let you know that it is not you who is in charge, it is they. No ‘terrorist’ is going to apply for an ASIC under their real identity (therefor getting caught before they commit an act of terror), nor will they obey regulations, comply with silly signs on aerodrome fences or any other primitive Government folly. I would be more concerned with the amount of ‘missing’ surface-to-air missiles worldwide, and the damage they could do to an aircraft approaching or departing an aerodrome on the fringes of a city or beside a nice wide ocean or river system.

[PiperCameron]

No ‘terrorist’ is going to apply for an ASIC under their real identity (therefor getting caught before they commit an act of terror), nor will they obey regulations, comply with silly signs on aerodrome fences or any other primitive Government folly. I would be more concerned with the amount of ‘missing’ surface-to-air missiles worldwide, and the damage they could do to an aircraft approaching or departing an aerodrome on the fringes of a city or beside a nice wide ocean or river system.

Defininitely. I reckon it has to be easier to hijack a jet than apply for an AUS ASIC these days, though the process has nothing on renewing a Defence access card (DCAC).

[Lead Balloon]

The department (and therefore Minister) administering the ASIC and MSIC legislation recently changed from Infrastructure and Transport etc to Home Affairs. The “Cyber and Infrastructure Security Centre” is part of Home Affairs.

The Secretary of the Department of Home Affairs has been slowly building his own para-military force and accruing ever-more powers as he has been thwarted (so far) in his aspirations to be the Secretary of Defence. The Australian Border Force has its own internal system of medals and now gives more of them out than the Australian Defence Force does each year.

If you think the invocation of “safety” by CASA as a justification for its intrusion, restriction and destruction is wearing a little thin, wait until the Secretary of Home Affair’s sycophants get going on actions in the name of transport “security”. I’m guessing that the ‘alert’ to which extralite referred is a mere taste of an increase in the insults to our intelligence and integrity to come.

So don’t plan on celebrating the demise of the ASIC any time soon.

Pilots are just collateral damage in the response to the real current problem: Porous borders, now exacerbated by, for example, a baggage handling workforce which is in a state of constant flux. Some of the organisations issuing ASICs have a bit of a conflict of interest: They need as many warm bodies as they can get, doing work airside to keep the airports and airlines up and running again. Spotting the bikie associate (with no criminal history) in amongst the much-needed casual workforce can be difficult and inconvenient.

I just can’t wait for the “Cyber and Infrastructure Security Centre” to find out that when I and thousands of other pilots fly into somewhere important, Air Traffic Control does not know our identity, doesn’t know if we hold a pilot’s licence, doesn’t know if we hold an ASIC, doesn’t know if the aircraft we’re flying has an airworthiness certificate, doesn’t know if we are using the correct callsign and doesn’t know what we are carrying on board.

I shake my head and marvel at our capacity to create ever-more complexity and costs that inconvenience only the law-abiding, each time I fly over Commonwealth Parliament House or downwind over what is the Prime Minister’s or Governor-General’s or MINDEF’s or some other important person’s aircraft on the tarmac at 34SQN, knowing that an actual terrorist could actually announce his or her arrival at Black Mountain tower and intentions to do something nasty, and nobody could do anything practical to stop that happening or get anyone ‘out of the way’ of the damage about to be done. They could turn YSCB into a Romeo and ‘ban’ any aircraft other than State aircraft from entry, and it would make no difference to the actual risk (unless, I suppose, they mounted anti-aircraft weapons on various of the hills around YSCB and were ready and willing to use them immediately some unknown aircraft entered the Romeo - just like Pearl Harbour in '42).

What on Earth have we become?

[43Inches]

GA is a very large thorn in the side of any government hell bent on total control. Can't have the plebs with a form of transport that's free and unconstrained. How do we tax it, police it, and manage the terrible threats it poses? I mean one of those Cessna things could possibly fly over our barricades we installed to stop all the car/truck/bus terrorists out there... so what if a truck can do 100 times more damage and simply be stolen from anywhere, or just borrowed from a mate. Now we have 'airlock' security doors coming for airliners, that since 9/11 more lives have been lost to those locked in the nose than terrorists.

[Paragraph377]

And any member of societies fringe dwellers and fruitcakes could crash their loaded car or a truck through any major airports chain wire fence and be parked under the wing of a wide body aircraft that is being fuelled in less than 60 seconds. An ‘ASIC’ won’t prevent that either. An ASIC also doesn’t stop said lunatics from purchasing and retrofitting a drone and then playing havoc on the airside of an airport. Drones in the wrong hands don't require an ASIC, they don’t need to go through body scanners and they don’t need to abide by an authority to drive airside. Fences? What fences?

Here we are in 2022, it’s a brave new world, a changed world, yet AMS still insist on ASIC’s and CASA still insist that it is illegal for a Cessna pilot to change a $0.20 bulb on his aircraft. Regulation by stealth, regulation by incompetence, regulation by stupidity. The alphabet agencies are outdated and irrelevant.

[Cloudee]

Here we are in 2022, it’s a brave new world, a changed world, yet AMS still insist on ASIC’s and CASA still insist that it is illegal for a Cessna pilot to change a $0.20 bulb on his aircraft. Regulation by stealth, regulation by incompetence, regulation by stupidity. The alphabet agencies are outdated and irrelevant.

CAR 1988 schedule 8, permissible pilot maintenance.

11. Replacement of bulbs, reflectors, glasses, lenses or lights.

[43Inches]

Have to laugh though that the millions spent on security fences around airports and kangaroos and foxes still make it in and 'terrorise' aircraft. Guess they think the average criminal is less intelligent than a roo... Can't even stop large wildlife strikes at airports, and they are not even trying to harm anything. Billions squandered on fences and facade security. Then don't even get started on the billions being spent on edge barriers on roads, where one state proclaimed 1000s saved per year, except the road toll per year was never that high, and has barely changed since the implementation.

[Paragraph377]

CAR 1988 schedule 8, permissible pilot maintenance.

11. Replacement of bulbs, reflectors, glasses, lenses or lights.
Thanks for the clarification mate. Good thing I don’t fly anymore and also a good thing I’m not handy with the tools.

[Xeptu]

I don't believe the ASIC serves any purpose at all. The Airline Identification Card or Photo Licence is just as effective. If an ASIC, those that require one shouldn't have to pay for it.
The sad reality is that while all those things are a deterrent, it is very unlikely a 9/11 style terrorist attack will come from the Airline Industry again, why because it's been done already. We won't see the next one coming the same as we didn't see the last one, it will most likely come from Ambulances or Fire Trucks, the confusion and urgency of all those lights and sirens, we'll just open the gates for them. The target will be major like the AFL Grand Final. That is how terrorism works.

[PiperCameron]

And any member of societies fringe dwellers and fruitcakes could crash their loaded car or a truck through any major airports chain wire fence and be parked under the wing of a wide body aircraft that is being fuelled in less than 60 seconds. An ‘ASIC’ won’t prevent that either.

That's definitely a threat, sure, but there aren't usually chain-wire fences close enough to the apron of a major airport that someone could do that in less than 60 seconds - a bit longer. maybe, but long enough for security response, supposedly. Airport planners actually run simulations to ensure that fences in close proximity to aircraft fuel hydrant points are crash-proof and that all other fencing is electronically monitored. Of course, minor airports and GA aprons are fair game. :sad:

An ASIC also doesn’t stop said lunatics from purchasing and retrofitting a drone and then playing havoc on the airside of an airport. Drones in the wrong hands don't require an ASIC, they don’t need to go through body scanners and they don’t need to abide by an authority to drive airside. Fences? What fences?

There's a fix for that already: https://www.droneshield.com/press-releases/2020/12/15/droneshield-swiss-airport-deployment

[Sandy Reith]

A very well known and highly experienced instructor and charter pilot, retired a couple of years ago, confided to me that the initial ASIC was acquired (when first promulgated) and was used until retirement.

This person flew regularly from the base security controlled airport (SCA) to and fro to many other SCAs.

Never pulled up for wearing an expired card.

Apart from the obvious impediment to the general attraction of GA and therefore contributing to its decline, it’s meant that some outback flyers have been reluctant to service their aircraft where maintenance is, for some, within practical reach only at an SCA.

Broken Hill would likely be a good example, used to be a very busy GA airport with several dozen aircraft on tie-downs and numbers parked in and around the now non existent maintenance business. Last time there about four years ago, maybe half dozen GA aircraft.

Another unfortunate unintended consequence is that there are far fewer knowledgeable eyes at SCAs, eyes that might pick up on suspicious behaviour.

There’s been a few suggestions in this thread about how to change the ASIC to make it more palatable. I’m drawn to LB’s thoughts:-
“I’ve always been struck by the fact that many pilots are their own worst-enemy. They revel in the mystique of aviation, which merely invites more and more regulation and bureaucratic intrusion. Flying is ‘special’. We must make sure only special people - like me - can fly. People with the ‘right’ ‘background’ - like me.”
Human nature has its various qualities, ego is undoubtedly playing out here. Having been CFI and CP, including RPT, and active flying from the mid 60s, I look back and ask why should we not fly in a regulatory environment that would have similarity in risk management with other means of transport, such on our roads. I don’t agree that BFRs are necessary, and I heard today that CASA is requiring the instructor rating to qualify for Chief Pilot. The applicant, with one five pax twin and a couple of singles has been trying for three months (so far) to obtain a charter AOC, CASA keeps on coming back for rewrites. How different in the USA where there’s a practical template and minimal cost, or as it used to be here. I started with a charter licence by submitting a 12 page ops manual, no interviews and no fees paid. If Australians want to be strong in an uncertain world, and want prosperity for health and happiness then free enterprise must prevail, people vote with their money and assess risk. If we want to encourage responsibility then, at least by degrees, people must be allowed to choose.

It all comes back to politics, and few people actually engage with their representatives. Politics should be seen to be our most important skill in society and we need to grow up in this regard because all too often we denigrate politics and politicians. Maybe it’s because it’s too much like hard work to be really involved and it confronts our own behaviour in the sense of what we would be like if in the shoes of MPs.

[AerialPerspective]

A very well known and highly experienced instructor and charter pilot, retired a couple of years ago, confided to me that the initial ASIC was acquired (when first promulgated) and was used until retirement.

This person flew regularly from the base security controlled airport (SCA) to and fro to many other SCAs.

Never pulled up for wearing an expired card.

Apart from the obvious impediment to the general attraction of GA and therefore contributing to its decline, it’s meant that some outback flyers have been reluctant to service their aircraft where maintenance is, for some, within practical reach only at an SCA.

Broken Hill would likely be a good example, used to be a very busy GA airport with several dozen aircraft on tie-downs and numbers parked in and around the now non existent maintenance business. Last time there about four years ago, maybe half dozen GA aircraft.

Another unfortunate unintended consequence is that there are far fewer knowledgeable eyes at SCAs, eyes that might pick up on suspicious behaviour.

There’s been a few suggestions in this thread about how to change the ASIC to make it more palatable. I’m drawn to LB’s thoughts:-
“I’ve always been struck by the fact that many pilots are their own worst-enemy. They revel in the mystique of aviation, which merely invites more and more regulation and bureaucratic intrusion. Flying is ‘special’. We must make sure only special people - like me - can fly. People with the ‘right’ ‘background’ - like me.”
Human nature has its various qualities, ego is undoubtedly playing out here. Having been CFI and CP, including RPT, and active flying from the mid 60s, I look back and ask why should we not fly in a regulatory environment that would have similarity in risk management with other means of transport, such on our roads. I don’t agree that BFRs are necessary, and I heard today that CASA is requiring the instructor rating to qualify for Chief Pilot. The applicant, with one five pax twin and a couple of singles has been trying for three months (so far) to obtain a charter AOC, CASA keeps on coming back for rewrites. How different in the USA where there’s a practical template and minimal cost, or as it used to be here. I started with a charter licence by submitting a 12 page ops manual, no interviews and no fees paid. If Australians want to be strong in an uncertain world, and want prosperity for health and happiness then free enterprise must prevail, people vote with their money and assess risk. If we want to encourage responsibility then, at least by degrees, people must be allowed to choose.

It all comes back to politics, and few people actually engage with their representatives. Politics should be seen to be our most important skill in society and we need to grow up in this regard because all too often we denigrate politics and politicians. Maybe it’s because it’s too much like hard work to be really involved and it confronts our own behaviour in the sense of what we would be like if in the shoes of MPs.

I know a few people that I wouldn't trust to mind my wallet for 10 minutes who have ASICs.

I always thought the concept was OK but the months that it takes to get one smacks of an idea that was never executed properly.

I guess there has to be some form of filter to ensure nutters don't get onto the airside of an airport (unless they buy a ticket), but always was of the opinion it should be valid for at least 5 years. I have no idea why it was set at 2 years unless it's to align with the prison sentence of 2 years that usually precludes you from doing certain things (being ineligible to stand for the House of Representatives or the Senate under s44 of the Constitution for example) so perhaps they're worried that someone might get jailed then come out and still have a valid ASIC.

It's probably a good idea to have a refresher online training module every couple of years but make the pass valid for 5 or even 10 years. We issue Passports and Drivers Licenses for 10 years, why not an ASIC.

The argument that it won't stop someone could be used for guns also, law abiding gun owners always follow the rules - or most of the time - and make sure storage and registration, etc. etc. is correct but criminals don't apply for a firearms license if they want to shoot someone or rob a bank.

[PiperCameron]

I find it more amusing that an ASIC isn't a recognised form of ID if you want to wander around a RAAF Base.. you need a driver's license for that.

In places like Williamtown, Townsville and Darwin you can theoretically wander from the commercial airport tarmac across to the RAAF tarmac get busted for not displaying correct ID. :=

[Lead Balloon]

I guess there has to be some form of filter to ensure nutters don't get onto the airside of an airport.But the ASIC system doesn’t ensure that. The ‘nutter’ can fly in from somewhere else, having learnt to fly without any security checks.

[AerialPerspective]

But the ASIC system doesn’t ensure that. The ‘nutter’ can fly in from somewhere else, having learnt to fly without any security checks.

Yes, that is true LB.

[AerialPerspective]

I find it more amusing that an ASIC isn't a recognised form of ID if you want to wander around a RAAF Base.. you need a driver's license for that.

In places like Williamtown, Townsville and Darwin you can theoretically wander from the commercial airport tarmac across to the RAAF tarmac get busted for not displaying correct ID. :=

I think it's ridiculous that you need a passport to get an ASIC or a Driver License, you go through police and politically motivated violence checks nationwide, yet an ASIC isn't acceptable when dealing with the likes of Centrelink or other government agencies.

Had to register with FEG the other day and the only thing I had that they would accept was a full birth certificate. Passport expired several years ago and wasn't worth renewing when Covid hit so BC was my only option as State DL not acceptable either.

[PiperCameron]

But the ASIC system doesn’t ensure that. The ‘nutter’ can fly in from somewhere else, having learnt to fly without any security checks.

On that topic: At Christmas Island a few years back (when the casino was still running) there was only a flight a day from the mainland. Having finished final checks of the fuel system back at the depot (and having checked in via Customs at the terminal earlier in the day) whilst the aircraft was refuelled, I wander across the tarmac and with a friendly wave to the ground staff join the queue to board at the bottom of the air-stairs. To say a few of the other passengers were wondering what the f*** I thought I was doing, is an understatement.. seriously, the look on their faces was priceless!!!

[tossbag]

The look was priceless because it was from a pack of morons that love rules and regulations and have no concept of the idea of freedom or a bill of rights. The same pack of morons that think Jockovic is an evil criminal and think that Andrews kept them safe.

[PiperCameron]

Unfortunately, I agree with you. Wish I didn't.. but that seems to be the world we live in. :(

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

yet an ASIC isn't acceptable when dealing with the likes of Centrelink or other government agencies.
Maybe because, while an ASIC is government mandated, it's not government issued. Although that is due to change.

[Ascend Charlie]

And as has been said before, an ASIC isn't acceptable when renewing an ASIC....gotta pull out the passport, driver's licence, birth certificate, letter from your Mum, etc that you used to get the last ASIC.

[SRFred]

Had to register with FEG the other day and the only thing I had that they would accept was a full birth certificate. Passport expired several years ago and wasn't worth renewing when Covid hit so BC was my only option as State DL not acceptable either.

Depending on the age of your full birth certificate and the state that issued it you may find that it no longer works particularly if they are trying to do an online confirmation of its validity. Had to get a new BC recently as one that previously worked no longer worked. The new one was standard A4 size with watermark but less information than the original issued in South Australia. It also had different registration numbers.

[john_tullamarine]

of your full birth certificate

I needed one recently. The old one which my parents got shortly after my arrival didn't pass muster because it didn't have a current ID number on it. Had to put hand into pocket etc.

When the new one arrived, it had a few photostat items from the old one and the required new ID number on a flashier bit of paper without all the tears of the old one. Rip off ? Sure 'nuff !

[Clare Prop]

And as has been said before, an ASIC isn't acceptable when renewing an ASIC....gotta pull out the passport, driver's licence, birth certificate, letter from your Mum, etc that you used to get the last ASIC.
IT is a Cat C document for the ID check, provided it hasn't expired

[Clinton McKenzie]

of your full birth certificate

I needed one recently. The old one which my parents got shortly after my arrival didn't pass muster because it didn't have a current ID number on it. Had to put hand into pocket etc.

When the new one arrived, it had a few photostat items from the old one and the required new ID number on a flashier bit of paper without all the tears of the old one. Rip off ? Sure 'nuff !One of my brothers was recently required to go through the process of changing his name to … his (same) name.

Our parents divorced when we were children. Our mother then remarried and we ‘automatically’ took on the surname of our stepfather (as was the societal ‘norm’ back then) ‘McKenzie’.

We then served in the RAAF with the surname McKenzie. He as pilot, me as a techo. Access to dangerous ADF stuff. Security clearances required. We were even posted to the same Squadron for a couple of years.

He then peeled off to civvy heavy metal and me to the legal profession. Every passport, pilot licence, driver licence, Medicare card, credit card, bank account, phone account (and in my case, every ASIC and national security clearance application as a civvy) etc, etc - All of them with the surname “McKenzie”.

Then, some latter day Sherlock Holmeses detected that the surname of our father on our birth certificates is not “McKenzie”. My brother was told that he had to go to NSW Births Deaths and Marriages to change his name to his name (we were both born in NSW). Being that he has a slightly higher tolerance level for meaningless bureaucracy than I do, he did that. And of course it made perfect sense to the bureaucrats to whom he submitted the paperwork. Congratulations bro: Your name is now your name!

However, I refused. The solution? Could I produce my marriage certificate issued by ACT Births Deaths and Marriages? Turns out I could. Turns out anyone can apply for anyone’s ACT marriage certificate online, without producing any ID. And on the basis of that document, which was obviously issued with me as hubby surname McKenzie despite what my birth certificate says, my latest ASIC was issued.

(Truth be told, my brother and I were always planning on striking a blow to the heart of western democracy, by reverting to our birth names in our 60s and then pelting the Parliament with marshmallows, rather than taking one of thousands of opportunities to destroy the place in the previous decades. But for the latter day Sherlock Holmeses having exposed us, we were nearly at the marshmallow stockpiling stage of our evil plan. You should now all sleep more soundly at night.)

[AerialPerspective]

Depending on the age of your full birth certificate and the state that issued it you may find that it no longer works particularly if they are trying to do an online confirmation of its validity. Had to get a new BC recently as one that previously worked no longer worked. The new one was standard A4 size with watermark but less information than the original issued in South Australia. It also had different registration numbers.

Not a problem for me, it was issued in the 1960s, it's the original with the typewriter completed information and old blue form and they accepted it straight away, took seconds to verify.

[AerialPerspective]

I find it more amusing that an ASIC isn't a recognised form of ID if you want to wander around a RAAF Base.. you need a driver's license for that.

In places like Williamtown, Townsville and Darwin you can theoretically wander from the commercial airport tarmac across to the RAAF tarmac get busted for not displaying correct ID. :=

I used to visit RAAF Base Williams at Pt. Cook often and had to get a Military issued ID. I just needed a Drivers' License and a letter from the organisation I was visiting 'regularly' and I got issued a photo ID 'Base Pass'. It was almost the same as an ASIC. In reality, it just allowed me to stop and not get out of the car, hold it up for the Security person to see, then drive on, instead of stopping, getting out, showing my DL then filling in the visitor book.

I'm sure it'd be stricter elsewhere, I mean, it's not like they had F-111s or F/A-18s based at Pt. Cook or classified equipment. I'm pretty sure they don't even have guns or other weapons there.

[Squawk7700]

I'm sure it'd be stricter elsewhere, I mean, it's not like they had F-111s or F/A-18s based at Pt. Cook or classified equipment. I'm pretty sure they don't even have guns or other weapons there.

Things have changed there these days, there’s a lot more going on.