View Full Version : How is business aviation coping with the current situation?
flyer12900
20th Mar 2020, 15:20
Seeing a lot of the larger operators with significantly reduced daily flight numbers over the last few days, however every broker is reporting in the media that there is huge increase? What does the future of business aviation hold for everyone with the ongoing situation?
happyjack
20th Mar 2020, 18:40
My guess is very busy in the short term but then with border controls and closers we will see the market dry up?
Without the airlines the infrastucture will be gone. ATC, agents, catering, etc. So what use is having your own aircraft?
Really tough times ahead I am afraid.
Unless something changes for the better very quickly we will all be living (or not) in a very different world soon?
flyer12900
20th Mar 2020, 19:10
Yes, completely agree.
Looks like this is already happening, with a well known EU VLJ operator only having 14 movements today when they would well over double this usually. And a large heavy jet operator having only 17 movements shows its drying up quick. Tough times for all ahead, fingers crossed all come out ok.
EatMyShorts!
20th Mar 2020, 20:58
Yes, passengers and operators WANT TO fly, but more and more countries/authorities are making this impossible.
zolfen
21st Mar 2020, 10:47
Well, if certain operators do not quote request, which other operators quote and operate those flight, they should not complain or cry if their volumes go down!
chevvron
22nd Mar 2020, 09:33
Farnborough movements up 67% on same period last year.
Malkovitch
22nd Mar 2020, 11:45
Yep, not good. We have been placed on technical unemployment since Weds. Sad an crazy times. We have still had flights. But like one a day to rescue people. I've fled back to UK while I could to be with my girlfriend. (normally based in Belgium). Stay safe everyone
Flown considerably in last 10 days, still busy. Very dynamic days with replanning, reroutings (adding more jobs). Quoting is higher than usual and perhaps it will peak. Has not abated atm. Strategically, many operational protocols in place coordinated with government, industry and health bodies.
flyer12900
22nd Mar 2020, 19:50
Yes, some tough tomes ahead. Seen VJ have 7 movements today to/from/in Europe, Globe Air have 11, NJ have 16, Air Hamburg 18. Presume these operators should and would usually have a lot more?
Oh gaim
23rd Mar 2020, 12:25
Yes bookings would be higher.
The sector may be in a slightly better position than the airlines - except maybe for businesses with significant debt / leverage, they could be in for a bumpy ride. Can’t see the tax payers being inclined to bail out the private jets
I think after the crisis there will be a spike in demand for business aviation, especially short sector shuttle services on VLJ's. Many people will be very anxious to fly inside a crowded airliner with recycled air circulation and hang around big crowds inside airport terminals. I foresee more corporates flying their mid and top tier personnel in batches of 6, 8, 10 etc for health and hygiene reasons. Let's see...
bringbackthe80s
25th Mar 2020, 08:25
I think after the crisis there will be a spike in demand for business aviation, especially short sector shuttle services on VLJ's. Many people will be very anxious to fly inside a crowded airliner with recycled air circulation and hang around big crowds inside airport terminals. I foresee more corporates flying their mid and top tier personnel in batches of 6, 8, 10 etc for health and hygiene reasons. Let's see...
yeah sure...
NetJets USA is down about 80% now. Offers for unpaid (except for benefits) leaves of absence on the table for up to a 1000 pilots. Currently any flights to Europe have 4 pilots to fuel and return to the US immediately after dropping off and/ or picking up. Similar with flights into Australia and NZ using Guam as the hub. Hopefully it boils over quickly.
Delta12
26th Mar 2020, 11:44
NetJets USA is down about 80% now. Offers for unpaid (except for benefits) leaves of absence on the table for up to a 1000 pilots. Currently any flights to Europe have 4 pilots to fuel and return to the US immediately after dropping off and/ or picking up. Similar with flights into Australia and NZ using Guam as the hub. Hopefully it boils over quickly.
Where is that figure coming from and how many Pilots are employed there in total ?
EatMyShorts!
26th Mar 2020, 14:42
Where is that figure coming from and how many Pilots are employed there in total ?
Google is your friend.
https://www.njasap.com/
[..]the NetJets Association of Shared Aircraft Pilots (NJASAP) represents the professional interests of the 2,400-plus crewmembers who fly in the service of NetJets Aviation, Inc.[..]
Where is that figure coming from and how many Pilots are employed there in total ?
Figures are from management and the union. There are a little more than 2400 pilots on the seniority list. The LOAs are for 1 to 12 months with the company having the ability to require pilots to come back with 14 days notice if needed again.
flyer12900
27th Mar 2020, 18:28
Seems like there are a few business jet operators shutting up now shop till we see the end of this. Interesting strategy just to ground your planes and wait till everything opens up again. Could be a while until we see that.
Delta12
28th Mar 2020, 08:51
So what you guys are saying is that NetJets US already plans to get rid of 1000 Pilots of their payroll ?
if NetJets US can't cope, how will others ?
Not every operator has a Warren Buffett, I thought they would be in a sort of comfortable position.
733driver
28th Mar 2020, 09:31
So what you guys are saying is that NetJets US already plans to get rid of 1000 Pilots of their payroll ?
if NetJets US can't cope, how will others ?
Not every operator has a Warren Buffett, I thought they would be in a sort of comfortable position.
No, I don't think that's what was said. Leave of absence (LOA) is temporary and can be as short as one month, for example. It's not the same thing as getting rid of a thousand pilots. Noteworthy is that NJA have furlough rules in their CBA which means everybody that does get let go has to be offered his job back before external candidates can be hired again. They keep their seniority number and some pay/benefits such as insurance would be continued to be paid at least for the initial period of being furloughed. Having said all that, I'm not aware that furloughs have been suggested at this point.
EatMyShorts!
28th Mar 2020, 10:46
And that's why it is so important to be organized through a union. Not to bankrupt the company, but to have rules and regulations for the good times and for the bad times.
Preacher_Av
29th Mar 2020, 10:45
who are you seeing shutting up shop? could just mean they just havent had flights for a couple of days now.
flyer12900
29th Mar 2020, 12:20
A certain Biggin Hill based operator. Temporarily suspending its flying.
Preacher_Av
31st Mar 2020, 10:49
A certain Biggin Hill based operator. Temporarily suspending its flying.
It's scary to see over 20 bizjet operators, some well known organizations, not performing any trip for over 7 days
dirk85
31st Mar 2020, 11:03
The charter operators are going to be affected badly by this. Corporate maybe less so.
It's scary to see over 20 bizjet operators, some well known organizations, not performing any trip for over 7 days
As far as i can see, the issue is not the demand alone - there are clients that want to fly at the moment. The problem is getting permissions to fly in and actually enter a country with a foreign passport.
I assume, once those restrictions get lifted the biz jets will be flying again, but most likely not in the next 10-14 days.
Proline21
2nd Apr 2020, 23:14
It is correct, that travel restrictions and obtaining permissions to operate are the biggest issues nowadays but in gerenal Bizjet traffic is still in high demand and will hopefully pickup asap if bans are lifted. I just cannot imagine and high profile Russian or Arab PAX NOT going to hang out at Olbia, Ibiza, Nice, etc this year. Maybe at a smaller scale but the market is there and demand as well. My 5 cents...
RedBelt
3rd Apr 2020, 09:33
Business/private aviation is in a much better position than airlines.
Asia/China is slowly starting to run and the demand for charter/private flights is quite high, nevertheless as already mentioned here, there are many restrictions when flying from one country to another due to permissions, overflies entry restrictions for passengers and crews.
One thing is for sure, companies and wealthy individuals will see the added value of using a business jet based on the current problems, but there are problems to be solved. In Asia the use of business jets needs to evolve and be seen as a positive thing for the country and not as a luxury for the wealthy. The number of companies and operators was severely affected in Asia since mid 2018, some companies just faded away, a lot of pilots (expats) returned back to their countries....this is to say the start will not be easy, whoever was able to survive will have an amazing competitive advantage.
This crisis will shake many week operators/companies with week structures and practices. Operators like NetJets, Flexjet, Vistajet and similar ones, will be able to start operating as soon as demand increases because they actually never stopped completely.
The effect on the different types of operators (fractional, charter, management) will be completely different and only the viable structures will survive.
HS-125
3rd Apr 2020, 10:51
I'm not sure if I necessarily agree - none of the big operators have stopped flying as far as i'm aware, it's just that they can't fly
I would have thought it would be the likes of Vista who will struggle most out of all of this - how do you pay for aircraft leases if you don't fly?
At least the major / larger operators have monthly incomes coming in from management fees / Camo and other avenues.
Who will be here in 6 months time? I think we will have a few surprises.
Oh gaim
3rd Apr 2020, 11:24
I think vista may have significant problems given the debt fuelled expansion
RedBelt
3rd Apr 2020, 11:42
HS-125, when I use the word crisis I mean the world lockdown not the virus itself.
The world has come to a lockdown in late March and what I wrote is based on that.
This world lockdown, if lasts more than 1 month everything that I wrote doesn’t apply because in my opinion the world will collapse
flyer12900
3rd Apr 2020, 14:47
HS125 yes, very true which I am struggling to get my head around although they do sell a core part of their product as hours meaning people would have paid up front, however they need to be flying so the customers are using their hours up in order to buy more. I mean, I can count all flights today on one hand.
Delta12
4th Apr 2020, 07:47
Buffetts Berkshire Hathaway just sold lots of their shares of Southwest and Delta Airlines.
Could that affect NetJets as well ?
He has shares of United and American Airlines as well that he did not sell.
733driver
4th Apr 2020, 08:50
Buffetts Berkshire Hathaway just sold lots of their shares of Southwest and Delta Airlines.
Could that affect NetJets as well ?
He has shares of United and American Airlines as well that he did not sell.
Interesting. He tends to do the opposite of what most investors do. I see that Southwest shares have held up relatively(!) well compared to most other airlines. So depending on when they bought they might still make money with the sale. United has lost so much that he probably thinks let's keep it as it can only get better or in the worst case go to nothing which it is already quite close to relative to the price a few months ago. Delta is considered by most to be the best of the big three which probably means it's easier to sell at less of a loss than the other big two. I admit I haven't gone back t check when he bought and at what prices.
If and how any of this relates to NetJets I have no idea. NetJets is not publicly traded so has no share price. Hard to compare it to the airlines.
chopper2004
8th Apr 2020, 19:51
Hope all are well and in Better news, the corporate / GA hangar on Newmarket road is being converted as contingency morgue . it is the one that used to hold the biannual EbAN event before it moved to Biggin Hill.
Hopefully it will never get used however half mile down the road into city center, there is a funeral home...
https://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/news/cambridge-news/pictures-show-work-temporary-cambridge-18061789
To more cheerful news, how long realistically can the corporate side Be back up and running once things have smoothed out and tithe curve in Europe flattens out?
Also what about keeping the currency of pilots...
cheers all the best.
chopper, expect big boost to business aviation after the crisis
both demand and supply sides of the equation will be significantly positive for this mode of transport