Qantas stand down 20,000 employees till end of May

[Dookie on Drums]

https://www.qantasnewsroom.com.au/media-releases/qantas-group-outlines-customer-and-employee-impact-of-coronavirus-related-network-cuts/

Ouch. Thoughts to all.

[CurtainTwitcher]

Not entirely correct, approx 20,000.
In order to preserve as many jobs as possible, we are standing down around two thirds of our 30,000 strong workforce. This will start from next week for those in Australia who no longer have work to do, until at least the end of May.

[Dookie on Drums]

Apologies...still very bad. Mods please edit title.

[Buswinker]

How do contractors/qlink etc figure in all this?

[No Idea Either]

That’s brutal. What’s the actual effect upon the pilot group. Does anyone know? I thought we had just copped it at VA (every one gets 7 days LWOP next roster and then we are all part time 50% after that) probably more to come with us then. We all realise over the years we’ve all had a ‘friendly rivalry’ amongst the different airlines at all levels whether GA, regional, domestic or international but I hope everyone looks out for everyone else at this time. I have mates, probably just like all of you, in Tiger, Jetstar, Qantas, Cathay, Brunei, the list goes on. This sort of thing can drive people into deep dark places. Again, just keep in touch and look out for each other.

[wondrousbitofrough]

That’s brutal. What’s the actual effect upon the pilot group. Does anyone know? I thought we had just copped it at VA (every one gets 7 days LWOP next roster and then we are all part time 50% after that) probably more to come with us then. We all realise over the years we’ve all had a ‘friendly rivalry’ amongst the different airlines at all levels whether GA, regional, domestic or international but I hope everyone looks out for everyone else at this time. I have mates, probably just like all of you, in Tiger, Jetstar, Qantas, Cathay, Brunei, the list goes on. This sort of thing can drive people into deep dark places. Again, just keep in touch and look out for each other.


^wot he said. Good luck everybody.

[Dookie on Drums]

I really hope I am wrong but I fear this is only the beginning.

[Sunfish]

Only a coordinated world response will save us from a depression I fear.

[Lead Balloon]

And note the announcement says until “at least” the end of May 2020.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

Only a coordinated world response will save us from a depression I fear.


Sadly we have seen how well the world can coordinate a response to a crisis. If only the world had not been reluctant to offend China and to “put economies at risk”, we might not be facing this situation.

[wingandprayer]

It has already started...I was 'downsized ' this week in the UK . Shame the government help will be too late for many in our profession.

[Left 270]

That’s brutal. What’s the actual effect upon the pilot group. Does anyone know? I thought we had just copped it at VA (every one gets 7 days LWOP next roster and then we are all part time 50% after that) probably more to come with us then. We all realise over the years we’ve all had a ‘friendly rivalry’ amongst the different airlines at all levels whether GA, regional, domestic or international but I hope everyone looks out for everyone else at this time. I have mates, probably just like all of you, in Tiger, Jetstar, Qantas, Cathay, Brunei, the list goes on. This sort of thing can drive people into deep dark places. Again, just keep in touch and look out for each other.

I couldn’t agree with this more. Everyone will have different issues over the following months, my biggest concern is medium term job prospects, others will be highly mortgaged with many mouths to feed, we will all have something to offer someone struggling even if it’s only an ear.

Speaking with others outside the industry and they all seem to think it’s going to be ops normal for them, I’ve been trying to suggest to them that Aviaton has been hit first but it won’t only be us that’s affected.

[blow.n.gasket]

I wonder what the rumoured “ unprecedented “ announcement President Trump is going to make on April 1 that will remain in place until April 10th and how it will effect the rest of the World’s global market ?

[Bad Adventures]

That’s it for the remaining 747’s. They’ll never fly again.

[f1yhigh]

That’s brutal. What’s the actual effect upon the pilot group. Does anyone know? I thought we had just copped it at VA (every one gets 7 days LWOP next roster and then we are all part time 50% after that) probably more to come with us then. We all realise over the years we’ve all had a ‘friendly rivalry’ amongst the different airlines at all levels whether GA, regional, domestic or international but I hope everyone looks out for everyone else at this time. I have mates, probably just like all of you, in Tiger, Jetstar, Qantas, Cathay, Brunei, the list goes on. This sort of thing can drive people into deep dark places. Again, just keep in touch and look out for each other.

This! ^ ditto

[f1yhigh]

That’s it for the remaining 747’s. They’ll never fly again.

What about the cargo flights using pax aircraft?

[oicur12.again]

“Only a coordinated world response will save us from a depression I fear.”

Indeed although even a coordinated response probably won’t prevent it.

Corona is the pin that pricked the global bubble and I hope our respective governments and central bankers don’t get away blameless for the poor economic decisions they have been getting accustomed to making.

I have many good mates in QF, I hope things pan out for the best for all of us when the dust settles.

Fingers crossed.

[Ragnor]

I wonder what the rumoured “ unprecedented “ announcement President Trump is going to make on April 1 that will remain in place until April 10th and how it will effect the rest of the World’s global market ?


Yeah good one mate, not the time for April fools rubbish

[krismiler]

Only a coordinated world response will save us from a depression I fear.

There will be a depression, the magnitude of which will depend on how long this goes on for. The aftermath will be similar to that experienced after a world war. Businesses will go broke and there will be personal bankrupcies. The USA and most western countries are up to their eyes in debt and lack the reserves required to fund a bailout.

However, similar to the recovery from a war, there will be opportunities for those in a position to take advantage of them. Construction companies and their suppliers had a field day rebuilding destroyed cities when WW2 ended for example. There will pent up demand in some sectors which will need to be met and a business strong enough to get through the current situation could be doing very well if most of their competition has gone to the wall.

Overall though, we are facing years of austerity as a result of this. Those close to retirement who have seen a massive drop in the value of their investmnents and now don't have time to wait for a recovery before stopping work will be particularly affected.

[AmIInsane]

Sadly we have seen how well the world can coordinate a response to a crisis. If only the world had not been reluctant to offend China and to “put economies at risk”, we might not be facing this situation.

Exactly....

[Guptar]

Some people in the finance industry are tipping that 20% of the total residential loans could default in Australia. When will a run on the banks start. France and Italy could be in a civil war, or massive civil unrest within 6 weeks.

[Sunfish]

Coordinated world response:

- Russia, China Europe and of course the USA, agree to bury the hatchet.

- Removal of sanctions on Russia, China, Iran, Syria, Cuba and Venezuela (that means telling the Israeli Government to ##@$ off and grow up.)

- Truce between India and Pakistan.

- Bring all troops home from Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Europe and Asia.

- restart national and international infrastructure projects OBOR, Bering Straits bridge, Nordstream II, Mediterranean oil and gas, etc., etc.

- concerted International health efforts (already happening with researchers from day 1 - 31 Dec 2019.

- concerted IMF, BIS, world bank, ECB and national banks to provide liquidity and underwrite non performing loans.

_

[Emmit Stussy]

From the media release,

More than 150 aircraft will be temporarily grounded, including all of Qantas’ A380s, 747s and B787-9s and Jetstar’s B787-8s. Discussions are progressing with.....

But what of Fifi and her sisters?

[directimped]

What do you expect, society is built like a house of cards. We have next to no resilience. Most of us are mortgaged up to our eyeballs, merely a few pay cheques from bankruptcy. Great, isn't it?

If this isn't a wake up call that we need to change our ways, I don't know what is. Even when this is over, there will be another just around the corner.

[CurtainTwitcher]

What do you expect, society is built like a house of cards. We have next to no resilience. Most of us are mortgaged up to our eyeballs, merely a few pay cheques from bankruptcy. Great, isn't it?
Events of Sunday the 15th of August 1971 set in motion the debt train wreck that was always going to happen. The only problem was identifying the date of the accident with any accuracy.

Notice how the amount of debt (credits = money to the counterparty) outstripped production from not long after that date. We have lived in a debt as money world since 1971, the outcome was inevitable. We were ALL forced to play the game.

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/437x317/03_18_08_global_inflation_5_30d957ba96866a8ec20672994f8d519b 7717b876.jpeg
Source: https://web.archive.org/web/20130518204200/http://www.gordontlong.com/2010/Tipping_Points-2010-Articles/03-18-08-Global_Inflation-5.JPG

[Gin Jockey]

Some people in the finance industry are tipping that 20% of the total residential loans could default in Australia. When will a run on the banks start. France and Italy could be in a civil war, or massive civil unrest within 6 weeks.

I bet you’re one of these idiots buying 400 rolls of toilet paper.

[ShandywithSugar]

Network , Cobham - business as usual?

[Vref+5]

I wouldn’t be too worried about Qantas, all the directors took the option of swapping income for shares last week, just before they started making these announcements and asking the government for a bailout. Check out QAN on the ASX, all of the notices are there, made on 3 March

[Paragraph377]

Events of Sunday the 15th of August 1971 set in motion the debt train wreck that was always going to happen. The only problem was identifying the date of the accident with any accuracy.

Notice how the amount of debt (credits = money to the counterparty) outstripped production from not long after that date. We have lived in a debt as money world since 1971, the outcome was inevitable. We were ALL forced to play the game.

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/437x317/03_18_08_global_inflation_5_30d957ba96866a8ec20672994f8d519b 7717b876.jpeg
Source: https://web.archive.org/web/20130518204200/http://www.gordontlong.com/2010/Tipping_Points-2010-Articles/03-18-08-Global_Inflation-5.JPGFinally, someone I can relate to who isn’t inside the matrix! Spot on, Nixon and his puppet masters pulled a stunt that ultimately would force most people away from the one thing the Fed can’t ‘fake’ - gold. Everything since then has been ‘fake’ wealth - printed money, paper bonds, algorithms on a PC. They don’t want gold as a currency because they can’t fully control it, manipulate it, fake it and so on. Metals are actually real. Sadly, the chickens have come home to roost. Interestingly when you study economics and finance you see a historical pattern where we have a ‘reset’ roughly every 40 years. The match on the current Ponzi scheme was lit in 1971 and its now a full blown inferno. COVID-19 is the straw that finally broke the camels back. The worlds economies have been failing/propped up/failing for years. Think about it - negative interest rates, quantitative easing (printing money), or even worse - digital money backed by nothing and printed on nothing. Fake money. The more they print the greater the eventual collapse. It has helped to destroy the middle class and cause inflation that is so high that you need to earn $150k per year upwards just to have a moderately comfortable existence. The 2008 GFC was the ‘precursor bubble’ - banks, financial institutions and corporations went bust. The big bubble, the real bubble has started to burst - bankrupt countries and we’ve already seen Greece, Spain, Portugal as examples. Now the only remaining and supposedly strong fiscal country Germany is deep in the crap, along with the UK and USA. The USA has a confirmed debt of $23 trillion with real estimates of up to $300 trillion. It was never going to last.

Hold onto your hats, this **** is about to get real.

[dr dre]

I wonder what the rumoured “ unprecedented “ announcement President Trump is going to make on April 1 that will remain in place until April 10th and how it will effect the rest of the World’s global market ?

Probably nothing.

Cos a) Trump couldn’t keep quiet about anything that long.

b) the world has moved on from US dominance

In relation to this issue I’d be more concerned about what Beijing is doing. Whether we like it or not Australia’s recovery from this recession will be because of our links with Beijing not Washington DC, despite how we feel about China at the moment.

[VH DSJ]

Network , Cobham - business as usual?

Closed charter operators aren't affected; only RPT

[outnabout]

Of the 20 000 employees that Qantas are letting go, I wonder how many are middle or senior level management...

[ShandywithSugar]

Closed charter operators aren't affected; only RPT

If only they did Charter. RPT -> KG BRM LEA GEL KTA PHE DRW ASP NWN for Network alone. Ever wondered why those in the west kick up a stink?

[Chris2303]

One wonders if all 20,000 will be reemployed and all 20,000 will want to come back.

I guess I'm saying that this is the opportunity to downsize in the short and medium term. Will there ever be 30,000 employed by QF ever again?

[das Uber Soldat]

Of the 20 000 employees that Qantas are letting go, I wonder how many are middle or senior level management...
We're not being 'let go', we're being stood down. Its not the same. We all remain employees of Qantas.

If this drags on for longer than the company has money however, that may change.

[hunterboy]

Sill Question, I know, but is that stood down without pay? Are there retainers or insurances that kick in?

[das Uber Soldat]

Stood down without pay, however we're able to use annual leave to make up the difference. If you have less than a certain threshold, you're able to go into negative 4 weeks annual leave.

After that, you're on your own. They are rotating duties at JQ at least, apparently based on seniority. So one month you'll work, then next month another group will work. Etc.

[markontop]

Where’s John Andersen when he’s needed?

[wheels_down]

Coles are hiring 5000 Casuals, I understand Woolworths is putting its vacancies to anyone in the QF Group wishing to assist with the crazy demand seeing at Woolworths and Bigw etc. More on that next week apparently

I guess this will suit some, example Ground Crew or a Cabin Crew would earn similar to the Woolies casual rate. 20 odd hours a week would help put food on the table, paying the rent or whatever.

[Buster Hyman]

What about the cargo flights using pax aircraft?
Plenty of twins around that can do that and be cheaper too.

[Buster Hyman]

Coles are hiring 5000 Casuals,
Coles were looking for 500* additional staff to assist with unprecedented demand....36,000 people applied!!!

*(Source: Relative of mine works in Head Office)

[0ttoL]

Coles were looking for 500* additional staff to assist with unprecedented demand....36,000 people applied!!!

*(Source: Relative of mine works in Head Office)Coles receives 36,000 applications for 5,000 jobshttps://www.msn.com/en-au/news/australia/coles-receives-36000-applications-for-5000-jobs/ar-BB11l2ZL?li=AAgfIYZ

[wheels_down]

Coles receives 36,000 applications for 5,000 jobshttps://www.msn.com/en-au/news/australia/coles-receives-36000-applications-for-5000-jobs/ar-BB11l2ZL?li=AAgfIYZ
Sounds about right. 1000 stores, that’s only 5 people per store. Most stores have 100-200 people working there.

I was told Coles and Wow are currently trading $300m a week over forecast at the moment.

Might be a good op for some workers needing to pay the bills. They are good companies to work for.

[Buster Hyman]

Coles receives 36,000 applications for 5,000 jobshttps://www.msn.com/en-au/news/australia/coles-receives-36000-applications-for-5000-jobs/ar-BB11l2ZL?li=AAgfIYZ
Yes, thanks for that.

I'll see your "MSN" source & raise you the Coles Careers site, which is listing 768 jobs just now...Nationwide.

https://search.colescareers.com.au/cw/en/listing/

[managed]

Finally, someone I can relate to who isn’t inside the matrix! Spot on, Nixon and his puppet masters pulled a stunt that ultimately would force most people away from the one thing the Fed can’t ‘fake’ - gold. Everything since then has been ‘fake’ wealth - printed money, paper bonds, algorithms on a PC. They don’t want gold as a currency because they can’t fully control it, manipulate it, fake it and so on. Metals are actually real. Sadly, the chickens have come home to roost. Interestingly when you study economics and finance you see a historical pattern where we have a ‘reset’ roughly every 40 years. The match on the current Ponzi scheme was lit in 1971 and its now a full blown inferno. COVID-19 is the straw that finally broke the camels back. The worlds economies have been failing/propped up/failing for years. Think about it - negative interest rates, quantitative easing (printing money), or even worse - digital money backed by nothing and printed on nothing. Fake money. The more they print the greater the eventual collapse. It has helped to destroy the middle class and cause inflation that is so high that you need to earn $150k per year upwards just to have a moderately comfortable existence. The 2008 GFC was the ‘precursor bubble’ - banks, financial institutions and corporations went bust. The big bubble, the real bubble has started to burst - bankrupt countries and we’ve already seen Greece, Spain, Portugal as examples. Now the only remaining and supposedly strong fiscal country Germany is deep in the crap, along with the UK and USA. The USA has a confirmed debt of $23 trillion with real estimates of up to $300 trillion. It was never going to last.

Hold onto your hats, this **** is about to get real.

SPOT ON!
There is 2 choices ahead. Deflation and the markets correct themselves or Hyperinflation. Unfortunately the the GFC taught the politicians that helicopter money, ludicrous interest rates and QE are the only things that "work". They are only going to make it worse and we are eventually headed down the well worn path travelled by Zimbabwe, Argentina and Venezuela.

[f1yhigh]

Plenty of twins around that can do that and be cheaper too.

I guess this could be the end of the 747s then. What about the A380s? Will they be economical once this blows over? I wonder what the likes of EK will do with all those A380s.

[Asturias56]

Some people in the finance industry are tipping that 20% of the total residential loans could default in Australia. When will a run on the banks start. France and Italy could be in a civil war, or massive civil unrest within 6 weeks.


why France & Italy Guptar? Both are well known for interventionist Govts who'll just pour state cash in. The problems are more likely in the USA TBH

[Buster Hyman]

I guess this could be the end of the 747s then. What about the A380s? Will they be economical once this blows over? I wonder what the likes of EK will do with all those A380s.
For the passenger variant, very likely. I don't think the A380's were economical before the virus, but others would know the answer to that better than me.

I think EK are committed to the aircraft & are probably able to play the long game 'economically' better than most carriers. This crisis will pass but the recovery will take years. It'll be a very different landscape on the other side.

I wonder how many 'legacy' carriers will survive.

[Asturias56]

"helicopter money, ludicrous interest rates and QE are the only things that "work"."

But it did work of course and without casting the world into a 10 year Depression. A fiscal hair shirt is a great idea in an ivory tower but it's not much use when the brown stuff hits the fan big-time.................

[Colonel_Klink]

SPOT ON!
There is 2 choices ahead. Deflation and the markets correct themselves or Hyperinflation. Unfortunately the the GFC taught the politicians that helicopter money, ludicrous interest rates and QE are the only things that "work". They are only going to make it worse and we are eventually headed down the well worn path travelled by Zimbabwe, Argentina and Venezuela.

And Germany of the 1920s. And that was after Spanish Flu killed about 500,000 Germans in 1918-1919. And everyone knows what happened in Germany not long after that....

So we have a world wide flu pandemic, the risk of a serious economic event, and this will then lead to an increase in nationalism (as countries isolate themselves and restrict travel, this will then escalate as they focus inward and globalisation and free trade become nasty words) .

[gordonfvckingramsay]

globalisation and free trade become nasty words

...and good riddance! Maybe we can start to rebuild the industries that made Australia great rather than relying on other countries to buy and supply our economy.

[What The]

Opinion piece.
Amazing that Joyce’s last act after stealing $100 million from the company is to bring it to its knees in its Centenary Year.
Imagine if the money spent on share buybacks to inflate the share price to protect Executive wealth had been used to retire debt, buy aeroplanes and save for a rainy day.
This QANTAS executive will go down in history as the most corrupt, inept and narcissistic group in the history of the airline. They killed Ansett. Now QANTAS.
After the employees save the airline through their burning of leave and entitlements there HAS to be a clean out of the Board and Exec.
About time they were brought to account.

[Danny104]

What the,
Spot on, would love to see that in the Australian. Probably too many chairman’s lounge members editing though.
Brilliant

[Asturias56]

Opinion piece.
Amazing that Joyce’s last act after stealing $100 million from the company is to bring it to its knees in its Centenary Year.
Imagine if the money spent on share buybacks to inflate the share price to protect Executive wealth had been used to retire debt, buy aeroplanes and save for a rainy day.
This QANTAS executive will go down in history as the most corrupt, inept and narcissistic group in the history of the airline. They killed Ansett. Now QANTAS.
After the employees save the airline through their burning of leave and entitlements there HAS to be a clean out of the Board and Exec.
About time they were brought to account.


This post is crazy - it's not QANTAS management to blame -it is a world crisis and it affects all airline whether well run or badly run to the same extent. They're all laying off, they're all close to folding:(

[Asturias56]

"we can start to rebuild the industries that made Australia great"

Name two.............

[Danny104]

Aus......56,
You don’t think the $2.4 billion spent on share buybacks to prop up share prices for the 100th anniversary and coincident with CEO departure could have been spent better elsewhere.
I guess with 1,100+ posts in 2 years you must be an expert on all things aviation. Maybe stick to the RAF that you actually know something about. Or is that just google too.
Industries.
Neighbours and Home and Away


hawkerxp. Very selfless and hopefully the start of something.

[Asturias56]

Aus......56,
You don’t think the $2.4 billion spent on share buybacks to prop up share prices for the 100th anniversary and coincident with CEO departure could have been spent better elsewhere.
I guess with 1,100+ posts in 2 years you must be an expert on all things aviation. Maybe stick to the RAF that you actually know something about. Or is that just google too.
Industries.
Neighbours and Home and Away


hawkerxp. Very selfless and hopefully the start of something.


well Danny I bow to your expertise after 12 magnificent posts - keep at it kid

[fdr]

I wonder what the rumoured “ unprecedented “ announcement President Trump is going to make on April 1 that will remain in place until April 10th and how it will effect the rest of the World’s global market ?

That he claims responsibility for all the winning that the world is seeing today? (I for one am getting tired of his "Whining")
That Corona Virus (A.K.A. "just a flu") is a Hoax!
That his really smart uncle John has the answer.
That "who knew that government was so big, I mean, big government is so big.... who knew"
That a new cut in medicare and medicaid will assist those that are down to their last half dozen golf courses.
That he is suspenderising "Habitat Corpuscles" for the duration, election 2020 is not needed, Vlad says he won 110% of the vote, and that's good enough for me!
N/A
Ans: C
All of the above
kleen coal is the answer, wash it so its shiny nicy purty.

[f1yhigh]

For the passenger variant, very likely. I don't think the A380's were economical before the virus, but others would know the answer to that better than me.

I think EK are committed to the aircraft & are probably able to play the long game 'economically' better than most carriers. This crisis will pass but the recovery will take years. It'll be a very different landscape on the other side.

I wonder how many 'legacy' carriers will survive.

I wonder the same thing too. On one hand there will be some carriers that go bust, on the other that will mean more demand for those that do survive. I wonder if this will expedite Project Sunrise and A350 flying in Qantas.

[SOPS]

It’s just occurred to me. The guru GT seems to have been very quiet on the Qantas layoffs .

[Maggie Island]

It’s just occurred to me. The guru GT seems to have been very quiet on the Qantas layoffs .

He’s definitely featured in a few Perth news segments lately

[0ttoL]

Yes, thanks for that.

I'll see your "MSN" source & raise you the Coles Careers site, which is listing 768 jobs just now...Nationwide.

https://search.colescareers.com.au/cw/en/listing/

Even Coles themselves are saying 5,000 new team members. (Casuals!!)
https://www.colesgroup.com.au/media-releases/?page=Coles--Community-Hour--to-help-vulnerable-customers--5000--new-team-members-to-boost-service

[Chris2303]

"we can start to rebuild the industries that made Australia great"

Name two.............

Sheep and Holden?

[Chris2303]

That he claims responsibility for all the winning that the world is seeing today? (I for one am getting tired of his "Whining")
That Corona Virus (A.K.A. "just a flu") is a Hoax!
That his really smart uncle John has the answer.
That "who knew that government was so big, I mean, big government is so big.... who knew"
That a new cut in medicare and medicaid will assist those that are down to their last half dozen golf courses.
That he is suspenderising "Habitat Corpuscles" for the duration, election 2020 is not needed, Vlad says he won 110% of the vote, and that's good enough for me!
N/A
Ans: C
All of the above
kleen coal is the answer, wash it so its shiny nicy purty.



It's not the Corona virus as far a trump is concerned - it's the Chinese Virus

[SRFred]

Meanwhile in todays AustralianQantas chief executive Alan Joyce has warned Scott Morrison not to nationalise airline competitor Virgin Australia, saying he cannot pick winners and losers.

“That would be completely unfair. We would be competing against the federal government,” Mr Joyce told Sky News on Friday morning.

“It has to treat the aviation sector the exactly same.”

and

Air NZ is being lent $900 million and

As a condition of the loan, Air New Zealand cancelled an $NZ124 million interim dividend payment to shareholders. It will also not pay dividends while the loan facility is in place.
https://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/aviation/government-should-not-nationalise-virgin-australia-says-qantas-alan-joyce/news-story/b86685c6cc7d1062f673787b68e7e8be

[orangeboy]

I noticed Qantas has deferred a $210 dividend till Sept. I know it's been declared, but surely this can be cancelled if 20,000 staff are going to be LWOP?

[Kiwiconehead]

The guru GT seems to have been very quiet on the Qantas layoffs .

Chairman's lounges are closing, no cash, no comment

[Yarra]

Opinion piece.
Amazing that Joyce’s last act after stealing $100 million from the company is to bring it to its knees in its Centenary Year.
Imagine if the money spent on share buybacks to inflate the share price to protect Executive wealth had been used to retire debt, buy aeroplanes and save for a rainy day.
This QANTAS executive will go down in history as the most corrupt, inept and narcissistic group in the history of the airline. They killed Ansett. Now QANTAS.
After the employees save the airline through their burning of leave and entitlements there HAS to be a clean out of the Board and Exec.
About time they were brought to account.

The current QF Management did not kill AN. Joyce was a non exec member of the company and so too were others who joined QF after the collapse. Look no further than the two main shareholders following the loss of control by Ansett himself. Both used AN as a cash cow, that was the fundamental reason for it’s eventual collapse. That reason then aided by poor management

[Ozgrade3]

So we have wiped put our airline industry, decimated our economy......for 6 deaths. By that measure shouldn't we ban cars immediately as we frequently have more than 6 fatalities on the roads in a single day.

Should we not close our borders permanently to keep hiv/aids out?Global HIV statistics


24.5 million [21.6 million–25.5 million] people were accessing antiretroviral therapy (end ofJune 2019).
37.9 million [32.7 million–44.0 million] people globally were living with HIV (end 2018).
1.7 million [1.4 million–2.3 million] people became newly infected with HIV (end 2018).
770 000 [570 000–1.1 million] people died from AIDS-related illnesses (end 2018).
74.9 million [58.3 million–98.1 million] people have become infected with HIV since the start of the epidemic (end 2018).
32.0 million [23.6 million–43.8 million] people have died from AIDS-related illnesses since the start of the epidemic (end 2018).

[machtuk]

So we have wiped put our airline industry, decimated our economy......for 6 deaths. By that measure shouldn't we ban cars immediately as we frequently have more than 6 fatalities on the roads in a single day.

Should we not close our borders permanently to keep hiv/aids out?Global HIV statistics

24.5 million [21.6 million–25.5 million] people were accessing antiretroviral therapy (end ofJune 2019).
37.9 million [32.7 million–44.0 million] people globally were living with HIV (end 2018).
1.7 million [1.4 million–2.3 million] people became newly infected with HIV (end 2018).
770 000 [570 000–1.1 million] people died from AIDS-related illnesses (end 2018).
74.9 million [58.3 million–98.1 million] people have become infected with HIV since the start of the epidemic (end 2018).
32.0 million [23.6 million–43.8 million] people have died from AIDS-related illnesses since the start of the epidemic (end 2018).



Don't get me started Oz! I agree! This whole mess is due panic and hysteria originally stirred up by the grubby media! The venerable & weak need protecting for sure but NOT at the cost of our economy which is now decimated! What's the point in having healthy people when they are unable to sustain life anyway! We sure do live in a fckued up society!

[blubak]

That’s it for the remaining 747’s. They’ll never fly again.
yes agree with this,why would you put them onto storage & then fly them again considering they were all being disposed of later this year.

[Sunfish]

You will fly what you can keep airworthy. That might not be much thanks to outsourcing.

[CamelSquadron]

Opinion piece.
Amazing that Joyce’s last act after stealing $100 million from the company is to bring it to its knees in its Centenary Year.
Imagine if the money spent on share buybacks to inflate the share price to protect Executive wealth had been used to retire debt, buy aeroplanes and save for a rainy day.
This QANTAS executive will go down in history as the most corrupt, inept and narcissistic group in the history of the airline. They killed Ansett. Now QANTAS.
After the employees save the airline through their burning of leave and entitlements there HAS to be a clean out of the Board and Exec.
About time they were brought to account.

What a........

"Imagine if the money spent on share buybacks ....had been used to ....buy aeroplanes"

Fat lot of good that would do right now when aircraft are grounded.....Think before you type!!!

Those funds were being returned to shareholders - if they had not been used to buyback shares they would have been used to pay dividends - either way the cash leaves the company. QF had a target optimal debt level - any surplus funds are returned to shareholders. It turns out that QF debt level had dropped well below its targetted debt level - so it is in better shape than it otherwise would be.

Finally - employees are not saving the company by burning all their leave and entitlements - the company still has to pay out the cash for those. What employees are doing is SAVING THEIR JOBS. Because the alternative is to make the employees redundant or send them home on LWOP.

You know nothing "What The" !!!!

[Berealgetreal]

Interesting comparison HIV and Covid-19. Contagion a touch different..

All the media’s fault, I think not.

[What The]

Dear Camel Angel,
In response to your diatribe.
You missed the save for a rainy day bit.
The employees ARE the company you shiny panted dropkick.
YOU KNOW NOTHING OTHER THAN WHAT YOU ARE TOLD BY DEAR LEADER.

[Gin Jockey]

3 x qantas maggots being ferried from melb to Avalon today. :(

[CamelSquadron]

Dear Camel Angel,
In response to your diatribe.
You missed the save for a rainy day bit.
The employees ARE the company you shiny panted dropkick.
YOU KNOW NOTHING OTHER THAN WHAT YOU ARE TOLD BY DEAR LEADER.

Ah ok, so lets apply the same standards to you.

So you have been busily saving for a rainy day and must have put all your income into retiring your debt. So you should sail through this situation comfortably. Given you believe you are the company and you have been saving for a rainy day, we can expect you to put your hand in your own pocket and put some money back into your company.

Given this fantastic situation you are in. you get my vote to be our LEADER.

Aside from the above rubbish, best wishes to everyone to get through this terrible situation.

[What The]

I am glad you edited that.
The first draft was terrible.

I will be putting money into my company. It is called my family.

Thank you for your kind wishes and it didn’t have to be this bad if those running the show weren’t so in it for themselves.

[SecretAngel]

So we have wiped put our airline industry, decimated our economy......for 6 deaths. By that measure shouldn't we ban cars immediately as we frequently have more than 6 fatalities on the roads in a single day.

Should we not close our borders permanently to keep hiv/aids out?Global HIV statistics

24.5 million [21.6 million–25.5 million] people were accessing antiretroviral therapy (end ofJune 2019).
37.9 million [32.7 million–44.0 million] people globally were living with HIV (end 2018).
1.7 million [1.4 million–2.3 million] people became newly infected with HIV (end 2018).
770 000 [570 000–1.1 million] people died from AIDS-related illnesses (end 2018).
74.9 million [58.3 million–98.1 million] people have become infected with HIV since the start of the epidemic (end 2018).
32.0 million [23.6 million–43.8 million] people have died from AIDS-related illnesses since the start of the epidemic (end 2018).


Two questions:
1. What is 3% of 25m people in Australia?
2. What is 3% of 7.7b people globally?

[Ozgrade3]

On the Easter weekend, approximately 25 people are going to die on the roads. We know this. It happens every Easter Long Weekend. We must preserve all life, at any cost. Therefore I demand that during this time, use of any road for driving of any wheeled vehicle (including bicycles) be prohibited. Even walking across a road should be outlawed and made a punishable offense. It will be mandatory to sit on your couch and not move. Anyone caught outside their house should be immediately arrested and taken to the nearest police cell for their own safety and remain there for 2 weeks. If that sounds like a silly idea, we have decimated our economy and vaporised hundreds of thousands of jobs,............ for 6 deaths. Should not a possible 25 deaths in 4 days, that we can accurately predict, trigger far more draconian measures?????

[Qwark]

Ozgrade3

Your comments are the first bit of sense I have read on this topic for weeks. If only our fearless leaders would stop reading any form of media hype and apply a little commonsense and logic to the situation!

[ECAMACTIONSCOMPLETE]

Check out what’s happening in Italy. My partner and I are most likely going to get stood down without pay, but there are bigger things going on in the world right now.

[Bignose101]

Two questions:
1. What is 3% of 25m people in Australia?
2. What is 3% of 7.7b people globally?

Ozgrade3 as you don't appear to be getting it, I have done the maths for you 3% of 25m people is 750,000 people in Australia

[Dookie on Drums]

I think a few posters need to look outside of Australia and see what's happening globally. As the previous poster said, look what's happening in Italy.

[John Citizen]

On the Easter weekend, approximately 25 people are going to die on the roads


Not the same thing.

Coronavirus has a 4% mortality rate. Very contagious, hidden, and spreading exponentially at an alarming phenomenal rate.

Sure only a small proportion of the population actually have the virus, but soon it could be many more of us. Do we just let it spread so that most of us get the virus?

Are road deaths increasing at such an exponential rate as the coronavirus?

Being on the road....no doubt less than 0.1%, mortality counting every vehicle, bicycle, pedestrian, motorcycle or even people on the footpath.

Road deaths can be controlled most of the time as long as you follow the rules.

These 25 road deaths, many might be due to speeding, wreckless driving, stupidity or driving under the influence and can easily be avoided.

Death from the coronavirus is not as easy to avoid.

Sure there might only 6 deaths now but soon it could be hundreds if not thousands and well exceed the road toll.

Just take a look at Italy.

[das Uber Soldat]

What a........

"Imagine if the money spent on share buybacks ....had been used to ....buy aeroplanes"

Fat lot of good that would do right now when aircraft are grounded.....Think before you type!!!

Those funds were being returned to shareholders - if they had not been used to buyback shares they would have been used to pay dividends - either way the cash leaves the company. QF had a target optimal debt level - any surplus funds are returned to shareholders. It turns out that QF debt level had dropped well below its targetted debt level - so it is in better shape than it otherwise would be.

Finally - employees are not saving the company by burning all their leave and entitlements - the company still has to pay out the cash for those. What employees are doing is SAVING THEIR JOBS. Because the alternative is to make the employees redundant or send them home on LWOP.

You know nothing "What The" !!!!
Oh look, the "im not a management troll" has returned to nobly defend the companys pathetic management strategy, just in time too.

"either way the cash leaves the company" - Which is the very problem being pointed out. It isn't mandatory that this money leaves the company. Apple has AUD$300 billion dollars in pure cash reserves. They have saved for a rainy day. But you idiots, with your insatiable desire to boost your vested share options, have engaged in every dodgy strategy and tactic to artificially inflate the share price so as to bring about a financial windfall for yourselves. $100 million dollars for one single person for the love of God. Indefensible.

I worry for my fellow front line workers, but I certainly don't worry about you lot. Hopefully a knife cuts deeply through the executive management at mainline and they too can apply at Woolies.

You sit there and demand the employees bail you out of yet another crisis that could have been if not averted, then significantly mitigated, and like the payfreeze, when the employees have done their bit, you'll have your beak back in the trough in no time, paying yourselves stupid amounts of money and spending your spare time sitting on pprune lecturing us all that we should be doing the job for minimum wage whilst as always, avoiding anything you can't answer as is your now well established MO.

I could deal with your bull**** when it was situation normal, but in this time of great stress and hardship for friends and colleagues, nobody here has any time for your Angel tripe.

Piss off.

[machtuk]

Dear Camel Angel,
In response to your diatribe.
You missed the save for a rainy day bit.
The employees ARE the company you shiny panted dropkick.
YOU KNOW NOTHING OTHER THAN WHAT YOU ARE TOLD BY DEAR LEADER.

nicely put -)

[Ozgrade3]

, ,

"Flu season is hitting its stride right now in the US. So far, the CDC has estimated (https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/preliminary-in-season-estimates.htm) (based on weekly influenza surveillance data) that at least 12,000 people have died from influenza between Oct. 1, 2019 through Feb. 1, 2020, and the number of deaths may be as high as 30,000. " Apparently this happens every year, in all countries, thousands upon thousands of people die from common flu. So why didn't we have travel bans, border closures and mass panic with these numbers in 2019,2018,2017................etc etc etc.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-08-18/influenza-spike-may-be-climate-related/11406980

https://www.health.com/condition/cold-flu-sinus/how-many-people-die-of-the-flu-every-year

[standard unit]

Oh look, the "im not a management troll" has returned to nobly defend the companys pathetic management strategy, just in time too.

"either way the cash leaves the company" - Which is the very problem being pointed out. It isn't mandatory that this money leaves the company. Apple has AUD$300 billion dollars in pure cash reserves. They have saved for a rainy day. But you idiots, with your insatiable desire to boost your vested share options, have engaged in every dodgy strategy and tactic to artificially inflate the share price so as to bring about a financial windfall for yourselves. $100 million dollars for one single person for the love of God. Indefensible.

I worry for my fellow front line workers, but I certainly don't worry about you lot. Hopefully a knife cuts deeply through the executive management at mainline and they too can apply at Woolies.

You sit there and demand the employees bail you out of yet another crisis that could have been if not averted, then significantly mitigated, and like the payfreeze, when the employees have done their bit, you'll have your beak back in the trough in no time, paying yourselves stupid amounts of money and spending your spare time sitting on pprune lecturing us all that we should be doing the job for minimum wage whilst as always, avoiding anything you can't answer as is your now well established MO.

I could deal with your bull**** when it was situation normal, but in this time of great stress and hardship for friends and colleagues, nobody here has any time for your Angel tripe.

Piss off.

^ What he said.

[SecretAngel]

, ,

"Flu season is hitting its stride right now in the US. So far, the CDC has estimated (https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/preliminary-in-season-estimates.htm) (based on weekly influenza surveillance data) that at least 12,000 people have died from influenza between Oct. 1, 2019 through Feb. 1, 2020, and the number of deaths may be as high as 30,000. " Apparently this happens every year, in all countries, thousands upon thousands of people die from common flu. So why didn't we have travel bans, border closures and mass panic with these numbers in 2019,2018,2017................etc etc etc.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-08-18/influenza-spike-may-be-climate-related/11406980

https://www.health.com/condition/cold-flu-sinus/how-many-people-die-of-the-flu-every-year
Regular flu seasons have a death rate of about 0.1%. Coronavirus is currently sitting at 4%, and is expected to average about 3.4%.

The last pandemic that had a comparable death rate was the Spanish Flu in 1918, which is estimated to have killed between 17m and 100m people, when the world's population was a fraction of what it is now. That's what governments are trying to prevent.

I'm not loving sitting on my hands at the moment, and am worried about my family's financial position once my leave runs out, and my job if this drags on. But the amount of completely counterfactual denialism in this thread, and the thought that I might be counting on some of you to process information and make decisions in the cockpit with me, actually worries me more.

[Dookie on Drums]

Regular flu seasons have a death rate of about 0.1%. Coronavirus is currently sitting at 4%, and is expected to average about 3.4%.

The last pandemic that had a comparable death rate was the Spanish Flu in 1918, which is estimated to have killed between 17m and 100m people, when the world's population was a fraction of what it is now. That's what governments are trying to prevent.

I'm not loving sitting on my hands at the moment, and am worried about my family's financial position once my leave runs out, and my job if this drags on. But the amount of completely counterfactual denialism in this thread, and the thought that I might be counting on some of you to process information and make decisions in the cockpit with me, actually worries me more.

What he said !

[PPRuNeUser0184]

I'm not loving sitting on my hands at the moment, and am worried about my family's financial position once my leave runs out, and my job if this drags on. But the amount of completely counterfactual denialism in this thread, and the thought that I might be counting on some of you to process information and make decisions in the cockpit with me, actually worries me more.

Don’t you know pilots are experts in every aspect of life and every profession.

[SecretAngel]

Don’t you know pilots are experts in every aspect of life and every profession.
Yeah, normally I'd say that's a fair point.

But pretty much every article and news story on the pandemic has this kind of information in it. You really have to go out of your way to miss it - and it's pretty clear that some people here are actively tracking down articles and sources to validate their opinions about the flu or car deaths being worse than coronavirus.

I'm not worried about people just voicing an opinion about things they're not expert in, I'm worried about people actively ignoring authoritative information they disagree with and hunting down obscure sources that validate their factually incorrect views. In a profession like ours, where data and authoritative information is so important, that worries me.

[Beer Baron]

Finally - employees are not saving the company by burning all their leave and entitlements - the company still has to pay out the cash for those. What employees are doing is SAVING THEIR JOBS. Because the alternative is to make the employees redundant or send them home on LWOP.
What a stupid, stupid comment.

‘Stand-down’ is LWOP.
An employee who takes their leave as assigned/awarded each year will have near zero leave balance, they will be advanced 4 weeks leave and after that they are un-paid. They have told us it is a minimum stand-down of 8 weeks and likely much longer. So from week 4 that employee is on LWOP indefinitely.

If a company makes you redundant then they have to pay you for your notice period and then pay out all your leave entitlements. Qantas are providing us NO notice period, drip feeding us our entitlements and when exhausted you are paid nothing. Not much different from being made redundant except a better chance of being re-hired at the end of it.

My leave has value. Long haul pilots have a contract provision (in ordinary times) to sell leave back to the company and it is worth a considerable amount of money. Now that leave and its value is being used to prop-up the company. Shareholders are not contributing one cent to the company’s survival, the government assistance package is equivalent to about 1-2 weeks of employee wages. If Qantas survives this crisis it is entirely on the back of its stood down work force.

Sadly I expect that when we get through this and return to boom times there will be no reward for the employees who saved the airline but there will be dividends, buy-backs and executive bonuses to make your eyes water.

[Foxxster]

So we have wiped put our airline industry, decimated our economy......for 6 deaths. By that measure shouldn't we ban cars immediately as we frequently have more than 6 fatalities on the roads in a single day.

Should we not close our borders permanently to keep hiv/aids out?Global HIV statistics

24.5 million [21.6 million–25.5 million] people were accessing antiretroviral therapy (end ofJune 2019).
37.9 million [32.7 million–44.0 million] people globally were living with HIV (end 2018).
1.7 million [1.4 million–2.3 million] people became newly infected with HIV (end 2018).
770 000 [570 000–1.1 million] people died from AIDS-related illnesses (end 2018).
74.9 million [58.3 million–98.1 million] people have become infected with HIV since the start of the epidemic (end 2018).
32.0 million [23.6 million–43.8 million] people have died from AIDS-related illnesses since the start of the epidemic (end 2018).



i don’t know where to start so mindlessly imbecilic is the comment.

https://www.liveleak.com/view?t=aGLDt_1584669664

[Progress Wanchai]

Good points. Humans are irrational so applying logic won’t help.

In fact it’s the same irrational behavior that has built this economic house of cards that will also bring it down. The virus is simply the first card in the deck to fall. The house will collapse because it was unsustainable anyway. The current irrational reaction is driven by the same impulses that drove many businesses and individuals to their current unsustainable debt levels.

Unfortunately logic has never been a big factor in some of the directions society takes.

[CurtainTwitcher]

Problem is SecretAngel, there is limited factual verifiable information. We just don't have the information to do the gold standard "Double Blinded Crossover Randomised Controlled Trials" Most of it is aggregated anecdotal evidence and case studies. We only really have the SARS data, even then, most of it is animal studies as SARS was totally eradicated from the human population. We are dealing with an enormous amount of uncertainty, and unfortunately, we all have to wait for more incoming information. In many ways, we actually dodged a very large bullet with SARS. The one positive was the lack of asymptomatic transmission.

There is a good book by the WHO providing excellent background information, SARS: How a Global Epidemic Was Stopped (https://apps.who.int/iris/bitstream/handle/10665/207501/9290612134_eng.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y) (direct link to WHO download). It doesn't take long into the book to see the timeline of events unfolding almost identically to that of COVID-19, substitute Wuhan for Guangdong). The one advantage we have now from SARS is the knowledge to use of PPE and quarantine by healthcare workers up front. A large number of transmissions (the book documents 250 infections from a single case alone in a Hong Kong hospital).

This disease, COVID-19 will probably have half the CFR compared to SARS, however, its transmission is both symptomatic & asymptomatic, and we therefore we will have many more cases. The final number of fatalities globally will likely be many orders of magnitude higher than SARS for this reason. In a perfect world, with access to a modern fully functioning health care system, the CFR is likely to be about 10x the flu. If there is a breakdown in the system (case study Italy) that number could be 30 to 50x the flu. The fatalities are likely to be in all age categories >20+, although skewed to the higher brackets and those with major underlying health conditions.

Because the entire global population is naive to this disease, there are no natural firebreaks to slow the transmission, unlike the flu. There are no other control options with the exception of essentially stopping all human to human contact until a vaccine or other treatment agent is discovered. The Washington post has done a nice visual simulation of the various strategies: Why Outbreaks Like Coronavirus Spread Exponentially and How to Flatten the Curve (https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2020/world/corona-simulator/).

[oicur12.again]

Twitcher/paragraph

Spot on, the dollar is toast.

“So we have wiped put our airline industry, decimated our economy......for 6 deaths.”

No, this is largely an economic collapse that was going to happen anyway. The virus is just the pin that pricked the massive economic bubble.

The blame lies with a massively over leveraged and corrupt banking and finance sector along with ponzi style fractional reserve banking (now zero here in the USA) and central bankers willing to sweep the problems under the carpet all in the name of fake growth that assist the political class.

Oh, and an ignorant electorate that paid no attention as we got lots of cheap goodies.

“Should we not close our borders permanently to keep hiv/aids out?”

According to Andrew Grulich, head of the HIV Epidemiology and Prevention Program at the Kirby Institute, the number of HIV deaths in Australia is so low that “ it was not even recorded.”

Conversely, C19 will kill possibly up to 200,000 Australians. There is a significant difference.

Same can be said for:

“….why didn't we have travel bans, border closures and mass panic with these numbers….”

12,000 is not the same as 1,500,000.

I am astonished that people still think this is a media beat up.

[Xeptu]

Please do not under estimate covid-19, it is not a flu, and certainly don't be confusing recovered with cured, they are very different things. The truth is there is just so much we don't know about this virus "yet". If it comes to pass that it is only dormant not dead then this will make the spanish flu 100 years ago look insignificant.

[AerialPerspective]

Not the same thing.

Coronavirus has a 4% mortality rate. Very contagious, hidden, and spreading exponentially at an alarming phenomenal rate.

Sure only a small proportion of the population actually have the virus, but soon it could be many more of us. Do we just let it spread so that most of us get the virus?

Are road deaths increasing at such an exponential rate as the coronavirus?

Being on the road....no doubt less than 0.1%, mortality counting every vehicle, bicycle, pedestrian, motorcycle or even people on the footpath.

Road deaths can be controlled most of the time as long as you follow the rules.

These 25 road deaths, many might be due to speeding, wreckless driving, stupidity or driving under the influence and can easily be avoided.

Death from the coronavirus is not as easy to avoid.

Sure there might only 6 deaths now but soon it could be hundreds if not thousands and well exceed the road toll.

Just take a look at Italy.

Most of that is sensible but people should take note of the fact that Italy, even with it's borders closed has a contiguous border with Switzerland, France, Slovenia and Austria, i.e. it is directly connected to Europe. With borders closed, we are not connected to anything... we have thousands of miles of ocean between us and the next populated land mass.

In addition, the mortality rate is 4% of the KNOWN infections. It is admitted by quite a few experts that there may be many people infected that will show little or no symptoms so we will never know and that might reduce the mortality rate to 1% or lower. Yes, that's still high but there's every chance that this is not going to be as monumental as everyone thinks. Enough measures have been put in place to limit its spread, it is hard not to look at the current situation without thinking there might just be a tiny modicum of hysteria involved here.

Qantas won't go broke, Virgin won't go broke because the government will either bail them out or provide support and in the case of Qantas, may even purchase equity so they can realise a return when things return to normal. They've already given 100bn to the banks, does anyone seriously think that even an LNP government would balk at a few billion to purchase 51% of Qantas... in fact, there's an argument that now is a perfect time to buy 75% as when things recover, which they will, they could (if they wanted to), retain 51% and sell 24% for more than what they would pay right now for the whole 75%. Virgin is a little more challenging as it has the overwhelming amount of its issued stock tied up with big investors (only about 10% being available so the government might have to offer some sort of tax concessions to it's cornerstone investors to contribute capital.

Let's hope it doesn't get to that.

[xyze]

Qwark/ Ozgrade 3
Comparisons with other illnesses/events based on numbers alone is irrelevant. The majority of the population will be infected with COVID-19 eventually. For most it will be a relatively mild illness, no worse than the flu. But for some it will be severe and need intensive care support over a prolonged period and for a significant minority of those >80yrs (i.e. 1/5) it will be fatal.

The rationale of current measures is to stop everyone becoming infected all at once, which would overload healthcare systems (look at what has happened in Italy) and lead to such things as having to leave people to die, mass graves etc because of a lack of facilities, equipment and staff. This is not hype, but the inevitable result of the cold hard metrics of pandemics. Luckily we have fearless leaders who (eventually) listen to those who have spent their careers studying and preparing for these sort of events.

Hard as this is going to be for all of us, the alternative of doing nothing would have lead to the same economic outcome but with far more deaths.

[SecretAngel]

Problem is SecretAngel, there is limited factual verifiable information. We just don't have the information to do the gold standard "Double Blinded Crossover Randomised Controlled Trials" Most of it is aggregated anecdotal evidence and case studies. We only really have the SARS data, even then, most of it is animal studies as SARS was totally eradicated from the human population. We are dealing with an enormous amount of uncertainty, and unfortunately, we all have to wait for more incoming information. In many ways, we actually dodged a very large bullet with SARS. The one positive was the lack of asymptomatic transmission.

There is a good book by the WHO providing excellent background information, SARS: How a Global Epidemic Was Stopped (https://apps.who.int/iris/bitstream/handle/10665/207501/9290612134_eng.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y) (direct link to WHO download). It doesn't take long into the book to see the timeline of events unfolding almost identically to that of COVID-19, substitute Wuhan for Guangdong). The one advantage we have now from SARS is the knowledge to use of PPE and quarantine by healthcare workers up front. A large number of transmissions (the book documents 250 infections from a single case alone in a Hong Kong hospital).

This disease, COVID-19 will probably have half the CFR compared to SARS, however, its transmission is both symptomatic & asymptomatic, and we therefore we will have many more cases. The final number of fatalities globally will likely be many orders of magnitude higher than SARS for this reason. In a perfect world, with access to a modern fully functioning health care system, the CFR is likely to be about 10x the flu. If there is a breakdown in the system (case study Italy) that number could be 30 to 50x the flu. The fatalities are likely to be in all age categories >20+, although skewed to the higher brackets and those with major underlying health conditions.

Because the entire global population is naive to this disease, there are no natural firebreaks to slow the transmission, unlike the flu. There are no other control options with the exception of essentially stopping all human to human contact until a vaccine or other treatment agent is discovered. The Washington post has done a nice visual simulation of the various strategies: Why Outbreaks Like Coronavirus Spread Exponentially and How to Flatten the Curve (https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2020/world/corona-simulator/).
This is a great post. The comparison and key differences with SARS are really important - the fact that COVID19 can spread without showing symptoms, in particular.

This goes to Aerial's point too - he's right that if you factor in the asymptomatic and mild cases that never get tested, the fatality rate goes down. That said, you could do the same for most illnesses - there are stacks of people who get the flu, but never get officially diagnosed too. It's still potentially tens or hundreds of millions of deaths, if the pandemic went unchecked.

[xyze]

"So why didn't we have travel bans, border closures and mass panic with these numbers in 2019,2018,2017................etc etc etc"

Ozgrade 3

Accepting a mean fatality rate of 4% (it is likely more see: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/ ) then in the US alone (pop. 327.2 million) there would be 13 MILLION deaths during this pandemic (i.e. the total number of deaths from flu in the same period would be 0.2% of the total deaths from COVID-19).

Now expand that out to 80% of the population of earth (which will be the number infected eventually) and you start to see why our leaders are doing what they are doing.

[Angle of Attack]

Ever wondered why Trump has just done a massive backflip from it’s a nothing to rapidly locking down the country in a few days?
Sure, there are some unknowns from the COVID-19 but most is known ie 2.2 million deaths in the US in 3 months if not using any mitigation
strategies, that’s 37 times the entire US Vietnam war losses in 3 months. Here’s the article that changed his mind from the Imperial college of Medicine London.

https://www.imperial.ac.uk/media/imperial-college/medicine/sph/ide/gida-fellowships/Imperial-College-COVID19-NPI-modelling-16-03-2020.pdf

It might be a little heavy on details if your not used to reading Scientific papers but if you do it is extremely sobering..

[Foxxster]

Qwark/ Ozgrade 3
Comparisons with other illnesses/events based on numbers alone is irrelevant. The majority of the population will be infected with COVID-19 eventually. For most it will be a relatively mild illness, no worse than the flu. But for some it will be severe and need intensive care support over a prolonged period and for a significant minority of those >80yrs (i.e. 1/5) it will be fatal.

The rationale of current measures is to stop everyone becoming infected all at once, which would overload healthcare systems (look at what has happened in Italy) and lead to such things as having to leave people to die, mass graves etc because of a lack of facilities, equipment and staff. This is not hype, but the inevitable result of the cold hard metrics of pandemics. Luckily we have fearless leaders who (eventually) listen to those who have spent their careers studying and preparing for these sort of events.

Hard as this is going to be for all of us, the alternative of doing nothing would have lead to the same economic outcome but with far more deaths.


are you insinuating that the leaders of countries like Singapore, Korea, NZ, Italy, France, the UK, the USA, Belgium, Australia know more about this than some crackpot pilots who post here.

something about HIV

or that the health professionals who are advising them might also know more.

something more about HIV

and that all these things the leaders are doing they are not just doing for kicks or to scare us or to purposely destroy the economy.

even more about HIV

gosh, say it isn’t so..

anyway I have a plane to pilot. Does someone have a $2 coin. It doesn’t work without one.

oh wait. I can’t go , my carer hasn’t arrived.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Os1TJHJ_ijc

[InSoMnIaC]

"
Accepting a mean fatality rate of 4% (it is likely more see: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/ )
The fatality rate is most certainly less. Much less than 4%. The fact that someone could have it and be asymptomatic means that there are plenty more out there that the statistics are not accounting for. On the other hand it is harder for a death to go unnoticed. (Although it some cases the death could wrongly be attributed to something else)

[Stickshift3000]

Best estimates at the actual mortality rate are close to 1%. This accounts for lack of testing, asymptomatic carriers, etc. Published in New Scientist magazine, 14 March.

[568]

https://www.qantasnewsroom.com.au/media-releases/qantas-group-outlines-customer-and-employee-impact-of-coronavirus-related-network-cuts/

Ouch. Thoughts to all.

Yep, thoughts to all you folks "down under".
Here's hoping we can get the world back on it's axis PDQ.

[Stickshift3000]

I work in the Gov health sector; this is the best paper going on predictive modelling of the impact of the pandemic, and is informing government policies worldwide. All models have to use assumptions, but this appears quite robust to me.

https://www.imperial.ac.uk/media/imperial-college/medicine/sph/ide/gida-fellowships/Imperial-College-COVID19-NPI-modelling-16-03-2020.pdf

[blubak]

What a........

"Imagine if the money spent on share buybacks ....had been used to ....buy aeroplanes"

Fat lot of good that would do right now when aircraft are grounded.....Think before you type!!!

Those funds were being returned to shareholders - if they had not been used to buyback shares they would have been used to pay dividends - either way the cash leaves the company. QF had a target optimal debt level - any surplus funds are returned to shareholders. It turns out that QF debt level had dropped well below its targetted debt level - so it is in better shape than it otherwise would be.

Finally - employees are not saving the company by burning all their leave and entitlements - the company still has to pay out the cash for those. What employees are doing is SAVING THEIR JOBS. Because the alternative is to make the employees redundant or send them home on LWOP.

You know nothing "What The" !!!!
Yes the alternative is to make them redundant!
Well just maybe there are some(or many) that want that option but instead of being given that option are being forced to use THEIR LEAVE.
It is not the company's fault that this has happened but by not giving options to employees it gives the company every option possible,very 1 sided & very obvious how they think.

[no_one]

So we have wiped put our airline industry, decimated our economy......for 6 deaths. By that measure shouldn't we ban cars immediately as we frequently have more than 6 fatalities on the roads in a single day.


It's not what has happened, it what experts are predicting will happen....

Imagine the hypothetical situation.....

NASA have detected an asteroid heading for earth. It will crash down mid afternoon tuesday next week and they reckon it will land right in the centre of the Melbourne CBD. They think it will wipe out everything and everyone in a radius of 50km of the impact point. Other experts have also detected the object. They agree with the impact point and time but think that the object is bigger and that the radius of damage is more like 200km.

Questions for you if you were the one to make the decisions?
1. Would you really use the fact that meteorites have hardly killed anyone in the history of humans as the reason not to evacuate the city?
2. Does the differing expert opinion justify not evacuating the city?

Your argument that more are killed on the roads in a day than by coronavirus in Australia to date is like point 1. As the financial advisors say past experience is not an indicator of future performance. Point 2 is like people arguing about if the death rate is 1% or 4%. Either number (and the number likely to be infected) justifies the measures to contain it...

[dr dre]

It doesn’t matter if the fatality rate is 4% or 0.5% (I suspect in reality it’s closer to the latter). Australia has 3 advantages over Italy. Time to prepare, lower median age, lower proportion of smokers. Should be better.

The fact otherwise is that people have stopped flying. Until the media starts reporting good news constantly, (disease rates bottoming, a potential cure being developed in Qld becoming widespread) people won’t be back flying close to their original numbers.

In the meantime we need to heed Jerry Springer’s words and “Take care of yourselves, and each other”

[Massey1Bravo]

It doesn’t matter if the fatality rate is 4% or 0.5% (I suspect in reality it’s closer to the latter). Australia has 3 advantages over Italy. Time to prepare, lower median age, lower proportion of smokers. Should be better.


The peak of the epidemic will coincide with the flu season, meaning we'll get both COVID-19 and flu patients fighting for space in the ICU. We need to get everyone vaccinated for flu, especially the high-risk groups.

[Daddy Fantastic]

Well whatever the outcome of this disease is and how long the recovery period is, I think its fair to say that globalisation as we know it is probably dead (cant say Im too upset about that) and the way the worlds economies are run will fundamentally change forever.

One can only hope that puts an end to crony capitalism and the culture of CEO's and directors earning millions whilst the regular staff fight for peanuts. CEO's and directors are just employees as well and this greed of the 1% has to be stopped one way or another.

Its time the power and money was put back into the peoples hands with strict laws holding those at the top accountable for their actions with severe penalties for abuse..

[walesregent]

Arguments around the mortality rate seem to be missing a major point- mortality from every other condition requiring hospitalisation will increase as a consequence of this disease because of the strain it places on the health care system. Obviously it has been mentioned elsewhere many times but our hospitals are not designed to cope with such an influx. Expect all cause mortality to be higher (I wouldn’t proffer a figure), including the road toll, if this is not adequately contained.

[Lead Balloon]

Well whatever the outcome of this disease is and how long the recovery period is, I think its fair to say that globalisation as we know it is probably dead (cant say Im too upset about that) and the way the worlds economies are run will fundamentally change forever.

One can only hope that puts an end to crony capitalism and the culture of CEO's and directors earning millions whilst the regular staff fight for peanuts. CEO's and directors are just employees as well and this greed of the 1% has to be stopped one way or another.

Its time the power and money was put back into the peoples hands with strict laws holding those at the top accountable for their actions with severe penalties for abuse..
Thanks Daddy

I haven’t had a belly laugh for about a week!

(BTW: Have you done any study of history? Just asking for no particular reason.)

[fcom]

Virgin Atlantic taken a 47% hit

[Rashid Bacon]

LB - yes, I'd ask the same question.

History tells a very different story

[Paragraph377]

One can only hope that puts an end to crony capitalism and the culture of CEO's and directors earning millions whilst the regular staff fight for peanuts. CEO's and directors are just employees as well and this greed of the 1% has to be stopped one way or another.

Its time the power and money was put back into the peoples hands with strict laws holding those at the top accountable for their actions with severe penalties for abuse..A report said that psychopaths are found in greater proportions among CEOs. Between 3% and 21% of CEOs are probably psychopaths, according to a study by Bond University psychologist Nathan Brooks. The background rate of psychopathy in the normal population is about 1%.

I would imagine the other percent not mentioned are Politicians.

[ZAZ]

Allan Joyce says they might consider stacking shelves at Woolworths.
Hey been there I did that so I could study and graduate flight school!
wtf?

[directimped]

Well whatever the outcome of this disease is and how long the recovery period is, I think its fair to say that globalisation as we know it is probably dead (cant say Im too upset about that) and the way the worlds economies are run will fundamentally change forever.

One can only hope that puts an end to crony capitalism and the culture of CEO's and directors earning millions whilst the regular staff fight for peanuts. CEO's and directors are just employees as well and this greed of the 1% has to be stopped one way or another.

Its time the power and money was put back into the peoples hands with strict laws holding those at the top accountable for their actions with severe penalties for abuse..
Completely agree but sadly I think it will make everything even worse. We're circling the drain as a society there is little doubt about that anymore.

[27/09]

Allan Joyce says they might consider stacking shelves at Woolworths.
Hey been there I did that so I could study and graduate flight school!
wtf?
But isn't there people doing that work already? Sorry, Don't follow his warped logic.

[Australopithecus]

I am by nature a pessimist's pessimist. But yesterday I was reminded of the picture of the sailor kissing the girl on VJ day. Even the longest trial ends, and the relief leads to exuberance and a rush to forget the days of despair.

At the end of this, however long it takes, there will be a recovery. If there were to be a dramatic breakthrough in a treatment or vaccine for Covid-19, then all the more dramatic will be the recovery. The eventual resolution may be more gradual, and so too the response, but in either scenario there are brighter days ahead.

I think that draconian measures could be put in place and isolation could still overcome it, but only country by country for now. Recovering our domestic economy should be the result of controlling the virus, and that’s going to take strong man measures in controlling US for five or six weeks. If we could do that, then we could gradually reconnect with the wider world.

[dr dre]

I think that draconian measures could be put in place and isolation could still overcome it, but only country by country for now. Recovering our domestic economy should be the result of controlling the virus, and that’s going to take strong man measures in controlling US for five or six weeks. If we could do that, then we could gradually reconnect with the wider world.

Thats if we had a government that was competent and knew what it was doing and put measures in place immediately ala South Korea or Singapore where the virus being put under control. Heck you could even say China eventually instituted better control measures, and is getting their economy back in business, I guess being an authoritarian dictatorship comes in handy at times. It also helps when you have an educated population that listens to directions. The government is just a reflection of the people and I think we’re seeing that here in great effect.

I’m reminded of the phrase “the Lucky Country”, and it’s creator’s original meaning. Not that Australia is genuinely great, it’s just that we are lucky to have such a high living standard when we are comprised of second rate people with leaders drawn from that population. I fear the response to this crisis will expose that.

[no_one]

Dr_dre, this is the full quote and it is as apt today as it ever was...

Australia is a lucky country run mainly by second rate people who share its luck. It lives on other people's ideas, and, although its ordinary people are adaptable, most of its leaders (in all fields) so lack curiosity about the events that surround them that they are often taken by surprise.

[George Glass]

Indeed dr dre.
Donald Horne’s book is as relevant as ever. The consequence of ignorance of his insight is a nation wth 40% of its export income relying on only 3 commodities, iron ore, coal and gas , over 40 % of which goes to only 2 markets China and Japan. The lack of diversity is terrifying. Take away tourism and education exports and we are screwed. Yet so many think that we can shut down aviation, the coal industry , gas exploration etc. etc. with impunity.
We are not yet at the beginning of this and the consequences will be profound.

[Josh Cox]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjubgwowqBo

[Australopithecus]

Fascile explanation based on unproven assumptions about the behaviour of a population. Also that idea guarantees a wholesale devastation of the elderly cohort for what should be obvious reasons.

[Sunfish]

Josh Cox, your video is utterly wrong and misleading. It is wrong and misleading because of three factors that make a mockery of your idiotic theory.

- You cannot accurately measure the number of cases at any given time - the private briefing I had explained that the true number was somewhere between 7X and 10X what is reported.

- There is at least a week lag between infection and the symptoms of illness leading to hospitalisation. During that time a person will be infectious with no symptoms.

- The R0 for the virus is approximately 6. It is highly infectious.

There is no @#$%ing way this mythical tipping point exists, let alone the idea that it could even be calculated - as Boris Johnson belatedly realised yesterday.

To put that in terms you can understand Mr. Cox, let’s you and me try an experiment; let’s soak you in petrol and I’ll give you a fire extinguisher, then I’m going to flick burning matches at you. Your task is to put them out before you get incinerated. That is the exact lethal equivalent of what your video “friend “ is advocating.

You can’t have “a little bit” of a pandemic.

[GliderJoe]

This IS a coordinated world response to CREATE a depression.

[chickoroll]

If the country goes into a full lock down which is possible early next week. Where would this leave aviation? Already running on a skeleton schedule already stopping completely would have to leave long lasting effects to which some will not be able to recover.

[CurtainTwitcher]

They will have to implement "helicopter money (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helicopter_money)" to bail out the general population, rather than just for the bankers in the GFC. To be honest, there is no other option except the abyss. The UK is already getting the chopper warmed up: UK government to pay 80% of wages for those not working in coronavirus crisis (https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/mar/20/government-pay-wages-jobs-coronavirus-rishi-sunak)

In an unprecedented step for the British government, the chancellor, Rishi Sunak (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/rishi-sunak), said the state would pay grants covering up to 80% of the salary of workers if companies kept them on their payroll, rather than lay them off as the economy crashes. The extraordinary payments will be worth up to a maximum of £2,500 per month, just above the median income.

[Ragnor]

I would think with the rapid rate of infections from last night that there is no other option. If you’re overseas stiff s&@t you have had plenty of warning. Scott Morrison needs to work with the NZ PM have a full lockdown that way on the 13th April we can get Australia going again trans tasmin travel can also kick off. We can’t afford to sit idle any longer.

[73qanda]

Hmmm that’s an interesting concept, that NZ and Aus could start up trans Tasman travel once they have both worked through their respective worst patches, hadn’t heard that idea before. Could be worth a lot of jobs/ trade.

[Ollie Onion]

I suspect that is the general idea, I noticed with interest that Australia all of a sudden about a week ago stated implementing the exact same policies as NZ wi5h regard to borders etc. I imagine that once the initial peak is over that Australia and NZ will coordinate the track and contain policies and start acting like we have a common border and treat trans Tasman as a domestic flight which can be increased in line with the lifting of restrictions.

[73qanda]

Well that sounds like a pretty good idea to me. It might help both economies tread water for a while.

[Josh Cox]

Sunfish,

Not my video or "idiotic theory", purely a conversation point, some earlier posters were of the opinion that the Government has been remiss by not acting sooner, perhaps there is another explanation.

Also, the gentleman in the video is not my friend.

My wife, who is a GP and DAME, thought it was a good conversation starter, and I'm sorry if this hurts your feelings, but I agree with her.

So Sunfish, knower of stuff, what's your idiotic theory ?,,,,,, I cant wait to hear it.

[Sunfish]

No theory. Incendiary conversation starter, you reeled me in! I don’t think we can be as brutal as the Chinese in locking down the community. We will thus experience something like Italy. It’s not a question of theories. Ask your wife. It’s maths. God help all of us.

Speaking as someone who collaborated on an AIDS vaccine (unsuccessful) with Institute Pasteur.

[Blueskymine]

We can do this.

[Icarus2001]

We will thus experience something like Italy. The comparisons people are using to the Italian experience I believe are flawed. They have a population of over 60 million people in a small country. Australia has just under 25 million spread across five major capital cities. A very different situation to Italy.

[Australopithecus]

So we have five miniature Italys then? The transfer mechanism seems to be working the same here as Italy...the same initial case load and the same early growth rates.

[Orange future]

“They will have to implement "helicopter money (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helicopter_money)" to bail out the general population, rather than just for the bankers in the GFC. To be honest, there is no other option except the abyss.”

Bailing out the bankers in the GFC is what put us in this predicament today!!!!!!
The previous economic regime has not been replaced, just put on QE life support.
Our “leaders” are in a world of s#$& and yes they will probably be turning the country into one giant welfare scheme in order to survive.
But by deploying the helicopters they will be creating inflationary problems they can not deal with either.
There is no good news here, they really are stuck between a rock and a hard on!
And I have to say, this was totally predictable.

[dr dre]

Government has just announced all non essential domestic travel must be cancelled. Only work related travel should remain.

It’s pretty obvious now nationalisation of the entire sector is the only way it can go.

[PoppaJo]

A lot of news is going to come out today, now and late this evening. I would expect state borders closed within the next 72hrs.

$10,000 early Super access this FY and next FY if you are in financial stress, just announced. Tax free.

Get the Forces out of their camps and into the community stopping moronic Australians flouting the rules. People jumping the barriers at Bondi this morning. Lock them up.

[Ragnor]

A lot of news is going to come out today, now and late this evening. I would expect state borders closed within the next 72hrs.

$10,000 early Super access this FY and next FY if you are in financial stress, just announced. Tax free.

Get the Forces out of their camps and into the community stopping moronic Australians flouting the rules. People jumping the barriers at Bondi this morning. Lock them up.

To go swimming?

[Foxxster]

A lot of news is going to come out today, now and late this evening. I would expect state borders closed within the next 72hrs.

$10,000 early Super access this FY and next FY if you are in financial stress, just announced. Tax free.

Get the Forces out of their camps and into the community stopping moronic Australians flouting the rules. People jumping the barriers at Bondi this morning. Lock them up.

I am not sure if the whole states will get locked down as per California for example. But hot spots like Sydney , Melbourne and the Gold Coast ,,yes. I have just heard that the Victorian and NSW premiers are both pushing for a closing of schools and non essential businesses . Immediately. There is a national cabinet meeting tonight. if no agreement to do this, Victoria is going to immediately shut their schools regardless.
This is the step before lockdowns.

so closures next week, lockdowns around 10 days later. Maybe a week , maybe 2 weeks but shortly.

You can work out the effects on the remaining domestic airline industry. Shutdown.

[das Uber Soldat]

If the schools shut, then its going to be a disaster. Those people needed to help fight this will be stuck at home looking after kids.

[SilverSleuth]

I think it almost certain that “basically” all domestic travel with banned.
There has to be large and equal assistance from the government. Both airlines are being prevented from trading (and understandably).
but this is not their doing, Aviation is and will be and essential service, plus between the 2 there are nearly 50k jobs. Neither will survive without assistance no matter what anyone says.

[Anti Skid On]

"we can start to rebuild the industries that made Australia great"

Name two.............
Sheep and tourism?

[Anti Skid On]

On the Easter weekend, approximately 25 people are going to die on the roads. We know this. It happens every Easter Long Weekend. We must preserve all life, at any cost. Therefore I demand that during this time, use of any road for driving of any wheeled vehicle (including bicycles) be prohibited. Even walking across a road should be outlawed and made a punishable offense. It will be mandatory to sit on your couch and not move. Anyone caught outside their house should be immediately arrested and taken to the nearest police cell for their own safety and remain there for 2 weeks. If that sounds like a silly idea, we have decimated our economy and vaporised hundreds of thousands of jobs,............ for 6 deaths. Should not a possible 25 deaths in 4 days, that we can accurately predict, trigger far more draconian measures?????
You really need to do an online course in epidemiology.

Somewhere between 3- 8% of people who contract the virus will die. The measures happening globally are to prevent the spread. The more people come into contact with it = the more infections. The more infections, the more deaths. If 50% of the world are infected (say 3.8 billion) and 5% die, that is a hell of a lot of people, maybe 2.5% of the global population. The table below shows a comparison between the deaths in Italy and the UK. Bear in mind the peak death rate for the UK is predicted for May, two months time.

Spain are about a week behind the Italian figures, Greece is just ramping up to UK levels. This is going to get worse, largely because Joe Public can't/won't heed the advice they are being given

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/541x960/90623735_10102913420609152_3203706382003994624_n_8f393378aa3 18af2e6b8800335a38f50d359e6d8.jpg

[VH DSJ]

As a former teacher in a previous life, it would be interesting to see whether teachers get full pay when schools are shut, or whether they are asked to take annual leave or leave without pay or half pay, as per what's happening in other affected industries.

[Paragraph377]

Sheep and tourism?
And coal. That’s about it. Farms are shutting down or selling out (Cubby station). Lots of beef export at the moment ONLY because farmers, who have kept their best stock until last, are selling those cattle to oversees buyers and then walking away from their farms. There has been underlying wild economical problems for a long time. COVID-19 is the match that has lit the fuse of a global meltdown. We will not have a recession as we are already in a recession. We will have a depression. People just don’t realise how bad this is going to get. Forgot the jobs, they are done for. They are not coming back. The world has entered a chapter in history greater than 1919. This has and will change the world as we have known it for the past century.

[dragon man]

A lot of news is going to come out today, now and late this evening. I would expect state borders closed within the next 72hrs.

$10,000 early Super access this FY and next FY if you are in financial stress, just announced. Tax free.

Get the Forces out of their camps and into the community stopping moronic Australians flouting the rules. People jumping the barriers at Bondi this morning. Lock them up.

I was one of them, you can’t walk on the sand but you can walk on the promenade or lie on the grass behind the beach. Why is it that Japan, Singapore and Korea appear to have this under control without decimating their economies. One man I spoke to is laying off 150 staff next week, unemployment will be 20% in no time.

[Foxxster]

A lot of news is going to come out today, now and late this evening. I would expect state borders closed within the next 72hrs.



I was a little confused in my last post. I was thinking state borders closed was referring to quarantining people in that state in their own homes like California, Italy etc.

of course Tasmania and the NT have already closed their borders and South Australia has just announced it has closed its border from Tuesday.

and that means that anyone coming into the state must self isolate for two weeks.

apologies for my error.

but I expect compulsory home quarantine as per California to be implemented very shortly ..

in addition to my previous post, it seems NSW will go ahead with further closures, read non essential businesses and potentially schools within the next 48 hours regardless of the outcome of tonight’s meeting. In addition to Victoria who are at least going to close schools from tomorrow again regardless of the outcome of tonight’s meeting.

[Dookie on Drums]

TAS, NT and now SA to shut borders. Goodbye domestic travel

[Buster Hyman]

https://youtu.be/SJUhlRoBL8M

[krismiler]

Those of us who can remember 1989 will recall the effect that the lack of air travel had on the entire economy, not just the tourism sector. Airlines are a necessary part of modern life and whilst behind electricity, running water, food delivery and telecommunications, they are still well up on the list. For regional areas they are definitely an essential service.

A period of government administration for the airlines is certainly on the cards. Fares will be regulated and employees terms and conditions laid down rather then negotiated. Expect a skeleton service to be maintained, with pilots rostered simply to maintain recency in anticipation of a gradual ramp up.

The recovery from all this will be similar to that from a major war.

[VH DSJ]

Expect a skeleton service to be maintained, with pilots rostered simply to maintain recency in anticipation of a gradual ramp up.

Might be a little more complicated than that, considering some may need to travel interstate or overseas for cyclic OPCs. Are cyclics considered as an essential need to travel?

[blubak]

TAS, NT and now SA to shut borders. Goodbye domestic travel
Isnt it time now for redundancies to be offered,let those employees who are happy to move on do so & for those that want to stay give them the opportunity to share in whatever reduced employment opportunities are left.
Making people take leave is not a solution,it is just a way of causing more uncertainity amongst the employees whose entitlements are now being eroded day by day.
Also may i say whilst a statement along the lines of 'we are taking no pay for the rest of this financial year & possibly longer' makes a great headline it of course fails to say what the renumeration for the financial year to date has been nor the bonuses already paid in the current financial year.

[PoppaJo]

I was one of them, you can’t walk on the sand but you can walk on the promenade or lie on the grass behind the beach. Why is it that Japan, Singapore and Korea appear to have this under control without decimating their economies. One man I spoke to is laying off 150 staff next week, unemployment will be 20% in no time.
The people listened in those places. They obey orders.

The people in this country do not. Someone just sent me a Photo of Westfield Penrith. It’s busy and people just couldn’t give a ****.

You know the people that mid cyclone in the
far north all rave on at the local drink like heroes, it’s these people that are the problem.

The airlines just need to throw in the towel with Domestic all together. I had 220 up to Cairns the other day. God knows how many had it.

[Dookie on Drums]

The people listened in those places. They obey orders.

The people in this country do not. Someone just sent me a Photo of Westfield Penrith. It’s busy and people just couldn’t give a ****.

You know the people that mid cyclone in the
far north all rave on at the local drink like heroes, it’s these people that are the problem.

The airlines just need to throw in the towel with Domestic all together. I had 220 up to Cairns the other day. God knows how many had it.

Let's just accept that Darwinian theory is well in place here.

I for one am glad I left the aviation industry however I do hold concerns for my colleagues still there.

[krismiler]

Might be a little more complicated than that, considering some may need to travel interstate or overseas for cyclic OPCs. Are cyclics considered as an essential need to travel?

According to this thread, Emirates have closed their training centre and the CAA have given everyone 4 months of currency on their licence.


https://www.pprune.org/middle-east/630714-emirates-about-ground-a380-ops.html

[SOPS]

WA just closed it borders. Domestic air travel is over.

[OnceBitten]

https://www.executivetraveller.com/news/emirates-cuts-flights-grounds-airbus-a380

And the AFL are about to suspend the season! :{

[Left 270]

https://www.executivetraveller.com/news/emirates-cuts-flights-grounds-airbus-a380

And the AFL are about to suspend the season! :{


You’re right, there are some upsides 😉

[Asturias56]

WA just closed it borders. Domestic air travel is over.


really pointless TBH - there's little evidence that such things work - the virus is already there

[VH DSJ]

really pointless TBH - there's little evidence that such things work - the virus is already there

What are these graphs for China telling us after they went under lockdown? https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/china/

[LeeJoyce]

TAS, NT and now SA to shut borders. Goodbye domestic travel
AJ to announce at the Town Hall hookup tomorrow JQ shutdown from 1/4 and QF only flying extremely limited Mel Syd sectors?

cant be far off as I currently await my letter of stand down

[f1yhigh]

WA just closed it borders. Domestic air travel is over.

Why would domestic air travel be over?

Would this closure of state borders mean QF will stand down even more employees??? I wasn't worried before as I am one of the lucky few who are still needed, but I am a little worried now.

[Dookie on Drums]

Why would domestic air travel be over?

Would this closure of state borders mean QF will stand down even more employees??? I wasn't worried before as I am one of the lucky few who are still needed, but I am a little worried now.

Well, a few have shut borders and probably more to come) so who is really going to fly??

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Not yet SOPS........
Today's advice was 'advance notice'.

W.A. Borders to be closed at 1330hrs WST on Tuesday, 24th. The WA Gummint has yet to mention what happens to the various trucks and rail which supply food and fuel and etc etc.....

'Interesting Times'......and......the AFL is now 'ORF' until the end of May!!!!
Bugger!!!!!

[Left 270]

I watched the press conference, and the premier said all RPT canceled, only direct charters for mine sites with ‘critical crew’ to manage the shutdown/storage’s.

[machtuk]

I believe it's a huge mistake to hammer home the last nail in the coffin, Hysteria has now overtaken society, the virus won't have anywhere near the devistating lasting Impact panic & hysteria will! RIP common sense!

[f1yhigh]

I believe it's a huge mistake to hammer home the last nail in the coffin, Hysteria has now overtaken society, the virus won't have anywhere near the devistating lasting Impact panic & hysteria will! RIP common sense!

Honestly, this! ^
I am also appalled by the lack of cooperation from financial institutions.

[Sunfish]

NO MACHTUCK, YOU ARE UTTERLY WRONG. The police and emergency services have already told governments that if/when they catch Coronavirus it is a workers compensation event, NOT a “take sick leave” event. This is because, like healthcare workers, it is deemed they caught it in the course of their employment.

I assume petrol tanker drivers and supermarket logistics people and other necessary workers will do likewise. What that means is that if the Medical system is overwhelmed, you may lose your energy, food and utilities (water, sewerage, electricity) services because nobody is going to risk their lives to go to work if they have no prospect of medical assistance. If that happens millions will die in the chaos and lawlessness that follows.

Close pubs, clubs, schools and industry. What matters is food clothing shelter energy. Keep the medical system working to keep that happening.

The airline industry and retirees like me are, sadly, expendable.

[Australopithecus]

Machtuk: Hysteria and panic, as you call it, isn’t a lasting condition as you claim. Death, on the other hand...

Italy instituted lockdown on 9 Mar when they had 322 cases. We currently are where they were on 25 Feb. If Australia locks down we avoid the magnitude of disaster Italy is currently trying to endure. If we don't lockdown, we get the same result.

[Potsie Weber]

Mortgages for those stood down need to be frozen indefinitely. Credit card rates need to be cut to mortgage rates. The government is underwriting the banks, the banks need to do their bit. Freezing mortgages would support the property market so that at the end of this, the country is not littered with foreclosed homes. Middle class Australia need to be able to preserve their homes so the recovery can be quick. Australia is not like The USA, you cannot walk away when foreclosed, the bank will chase you into bankruptcy. Bankruptcy and foreclosure protection is needed so people won’t be thrown out of their houses. The welfare system will not cope

Time to issue war bonds as well maybe to fund welfare to those in need.

[Icarus2001]

and the premier said all RPT cancelled, only direct charters for mine sites with ‘critical crew’ to manage the shutdown/storage’s. I did wonder when sitting in a 100 seat jet flying to a mine site would be deemed as undesireable as sitting in the fresh air at Bondi beach. Or going to your local pub, cafe etc. So are the mines going into care and maintenance?

[mrs nomer]

This is changing by the hour, but it would be reasonable to think that QLD, NSW, VIC will all announce border restrictions unless there is a marked change in the infection rate which is very unlikely, given all this should have been done a week ago.

Accept that airlines will not operate routine domestic passenger flights for a period until there is clear evidence that the pandemic is on the downside of the curve. At lease a month and probably more. Another 3-6 months to get up and running.

Of the 3 large domestic carriers, 2 (QF+JQ) will probably survive in a very different form for the forseeable future. The third airline (VA) will need a miracle to survive this, but time will tell how it all ends up.

[Asturias56]

I believe it's a huge mistake to hammer home the last nail in the coffin, Hysteria has now overtaken society, the virus won't have anywhere near the devistating lasting Impact panic & hysteria will! RIP common sense!


There is no vaccine, there is no medical treatment that cures or stops the virus. Isolation is the only known effective action

It worked in China & in Korea and its slowing the spread in places like the Singapore, UK and Germany - what don't you understand?

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/741x591/2020_03_22_100210_72f6d33f5ecc95cc6005244b733841e73118f3a3.j pg

[f1yhigh]

There is no vaccine, there is no medical treatment that cures or stops the virus. Isolation is the only known effective action

It worked in China & in Korea and its slowing the spread in places like the Singapore, UK and Germany - what don't you understand?

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/741x591/2020_03_22_100210_72f6d33f5ecc95cc6005244b733841e73118f3a3.j pg

Except Australia, or should I say Australians, are only taking half measures at isolation. The economy is suffering and for what? Either we all take this seriously (which a lot of people are still not doing, why I have no idea) and take the necessary measures, or we don't and let the economy recover.

[Left 270]

I did wonder when sitting in a 100 seat jet flying to a mine site would be deemed as undesireable as sitting in the fresh air at Bondi beach. Or going to your local pub, cafe etc. So are the mines going into care and maintenance?

From what was seen yes. I’m not directly involved just watched the press conference and so far there’s been nothing in the media from what I’ve seen.
I did think it would come to this, I was surprised to find it was ‘ops normal’ at network last I asked.

[Angle of Attack]

All states are about to put border restrictions on, domestic flights will basically cease except for some skeleton flights circa a few percent of current capacity. This won’t last a few months it will go into early next year at best. International? meh! Won’t be happening until mid next year in any real form.

And if you look at the finances QF can probably survive until end of this year at best then it’s bailout or collapse.

[Paragraph377]

On a positive note, all places of worship are closed as of midday 23 March. About time! Maybe Scomo will also take their untaxed wealth and use that money to help prop up the country? Then when the crisis has passed, don’t let them reopen their doors! Imagine that, Scomo the modern day Robin Hood. He would get more votes next election than one thought possible.

[morno]

I think your timeline is a bit exaggerated. Maybe a few months at worst

[SOPS]

I think your timeline is a bit exaggerated. Maybe a few months at worst


I would suggest we are looking at least 6 months. And then travel will be very restricted .. because everyone will be scared of flare ups

[Dookie on Drums]

I think your timeline is a bit exaggerated. Maybe a few months at worst

k Morno...lol

[Asturias56]

It seems to be 3 months from early cases back to few cases based on China, Korea and even Iran is seeing a drop /slow down. THE question is the one of a second wave - if it doesn't happen we should be opening up from June/July - a second wave and all bets are off until there is either a jab or everyone has had it.

[Sunfish]

We just cancelled two business class returns to Europe, train in germany, car hire for six weeks, accomodation in Italy, Sicily and Sardinia, four overnight ferries, yacht charter for two weeks in Croatia, a week in venice, sicily and elsewhere, two Vietnam domestic flights and a week in Nha Trang. Now multiply by tens of thousands of similar vacations and you get a picture of the impact of this bug.


Even if a miracle cure was found tomorrow, it’s going to take a year to get back to “normal”. If there is such a thing.....

[Australia2]

They’ve just answered that.

[Keg]

On a positive note, all places of worship are closed as of midday 23 March. About time! Maybe Scomo will also take their untaxed wealth and use that money to help prop up the country? Then when the crisis has passed, don’t let them reopen their doors! Imagine that, Scomo the modern day Robin Hood. He would get more votes next election than one thought possible.

You’re allowing your anti-religion bias to show.

Most churches closed for worship before 23 March- certainly Sydney Anglicans didn’t hold face to face services yesterday. Majority of churches had video links up and going. That will be unchanged moving forward.

A number of churches have volunteers and paid workers in the community assisting those who are required to self-isolate. That workload will only increase now with restrictions on other businesses. This is on top of the ‘normal’ workload assisting a number of vulnerable people in our community.

‘Untaxed wealth’. Lol. You obviously don’t know a whole lot about how most church finances are set up.

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

tens of thousands of similar vacations
I don't think there would be 10 of thousands of similar vacations to that.

[kiwi grey]

We just cancelled two business class returns to Europe, train in germany, car hire for six weeks, accomodation in Italy, Sicily and Sardinia, four overnight ferries, yacht charter for two weeks in Croatia, a week in venice, sicily and elsewhere, two Vietnam domestic flights and a week in Nha Trang. Now multiply by tens of thousands of similar vacations and you get a picture of the impact of this bug.

Even if a miracle cure was found tomorrow, it’s going to take a year to get back to “normal”. If there is such a thing.....

When the crisis is over (I'm betting Christmas at best, more likely next northern spring, i.e. twelve months) a whole bunch of over-65s will have a huge lot less in their super funds, maybe 50% less. It may not make a lot of difference to those who started off with $10,000,000, but those who started of with say $600,000 and have now got $300,000 are not going to splash it on an expensive overseas holiday. And nobody is going on a plague cruise ship.
The shape of tourism and leisure flying has changed for a l-o-n-g time
:(

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

I did wonder when sitting in a 100 seat jet flying to a mine site would be deemed as undesireable
Of all the hundreds of thousands of people who have flown in internationally, or domestically since all this started, I can't recall one case where someone has tested positive due to exposure to a later confirmed positive case on an aircraft. Sure they contribute to spreading the virus, but they don't seem to be like cruise ships. Even airports with their exposure to the arriving (subsequently) positive cases, have not produced clusters of further virus positives.

[dr dre]

I did wonder when sitting in a 100 seat jet flying to a mine site would be deemed as undesireable as sitting in the fresh air at Bondi beach. Or going to your local pub, cafe etc. So are the mines going into care and maintenance?

Geoffrey Thomas (your decision on whether you trust him) wrote an article yesterday stating that mining companies will keep a reduced FIFO schedule going with some ad hoc charter. There is also a thought from mining companies to keep a spare seat between pax for distancing which would increase the amount of flights required?

BHP is putting on 1500 casual employees for the next 6 months to preserve the integrity of their operations. It looks like China is conducting an infrastructure stimulus to restart their economy, so Iron Ore at least should be in demand.

[cattletruck]

It looks like China is conducting an infrastructure stimulus to restart their economy, so Iron Ore at least should be in demand.

When all this is over we should send China the bill.

I don't think there would be 10 of thousands of similar vacations to that.

When all this over Sunny we'd all like a copy of that awesome itinerary.
I'm yet to cancel my flight to Europe in July, but it is looking more like a no-go. Rather than take a refund I've decided I will roll the dates into next year and hope for the best.

[oicur12.again]

"When all this is over we should send China the bill."

Why?

[Foxxster]

When all this is over we should send China the bill.



When all this over Sunny we'd all like a copy of that awesome itinerary.
I'm yet to cancel my flight to Europe in July, but it is looking more like a no-go. Rather than take a refund I've decided I will roll the dates into next year and hope for the best.

couldn’t agree more. Every country should add up the costs of their stimulus packages. Then take that figure and double it as it would not have been enough to compensate everyone affected. Then triple it for all the deaths inflicted on loved ones, the emotional stress this has had on people and the massive inconvenience. For Australia that number would be currently around $600 billion. Wipe that off what we owe China and if anything is left over, repossess some of the assets the Chinese government has bought here using state owned companies as cover.

as for July 2020 trip to Europe. No hope. Rebook for either May/ June or late August/ September next year. July is horrendous in Europe. It is absolute peak period. Unbelievable crowded and twice as expensive. Huge queues for tourist attractions. Even with probably reduced numbers next year.

[FlexibleResponse]

Financial Review - 23/03/2020
Qantas chief executive Alan Joyce has never been one to waste a crisis. And since the novel coronavirus completely shuttered the travel industry, you’d expect an airline boss to feel a little jumpy.

Nevertheless, Joyce’s performance on Friday morning television – in which he warned the Morrison government against bailing out “the badly managed companies which have been badly managed for 10 years”, i.e. Virgin Australia – was exceptionally inelegant.

He was overreacting to a comment piece in that day’s The Australian which imagined that “some companies may end up having to be nationalised, if even only temporarily” and that “Virgin could be one example” because “there is no way [the government] will allow Australia to return to a virtual single-carrier environment in a post-virus world”.

Joyce’s initial comments on Sky – that Canberra “can’t pick winners and losers; whatever aid is given to one particular company … has to be given to everybody in that sector” – would’ve sufficed perfectly. But Joyce’s shortcoming has always been in craving a needless fight.


Short memoryBy Joyce’s seventh year, he’d delivered $2.6 billion of accumulated losses and was begging Tony Abbott to pick winners and losers by extending him a $3 billion loan guarantee. And after 11 years, Joyce has accumulated net profits of only $1.75 billion – a factoid easy to forget when you see his remuneration ($92 million and counting), but crucial to remember when he critiques other companies “which have been badly managed for 10 years”.

Six years since he asked the federal government to save him, Joyce now reckons that “when good companies have managed their position very well, the government should let them manage their way through this”.


His sudden aversion to any Commonwealth assistance is astonishing but welcome. Qantas could scarcely accept public cash only five months since his chairman Richard Goyder boasted that “at the end of this latest buyback, we’ll have bought back almost one-third of our shares since 2015 – the most of any company in the ASX All Ordinaries”.

Yep, that’s $3.2 billion of excess cash (on top of dividends) it returned to shareholders, or almost how much passenger revenue Qantas will suddenly forgo this March, April and May. Handing it over (while reducing its own share count) massively juiced the airline’s share price and total shareholder returns, upon which Joyce’s bonuses are explicitly calculated. Thus management is incentivised not to save cash for a rainy day – nor, indeed, to reinvest profits productively, as Treasurer Josh Frydenberg pleaded in August.



Some quotes above from the Financial Review columnist Joe Aston in a scathing assessment of Alan Joyce portraying him as avaricious, rapacious and possessing selective memory.

[Shark Patrol]

Hopefully the world has learnt a lesson about putting all your eggs in one basket (Chinese manufacturing) in a globalized marketplace. It's all well and good using cheap overseas labour to pad the profit margins of the one percent even further, but when everything goes wheels up, there has to be a Plan B.

When the dust finally settles, I hope that some first world countries consider re-establishing their own internal manufacturing base so that we are not all totally reliant on China. At the very least, the world has to pressure the Chinese government to close live animal markets (and keep them closed) FOREVER. They had a warning when SARS emerged in 2005 and didn't heed it. After all of this disruption, suffering and grief, it simply has to happen this time.

PS The descriptions of Joyce left out "sociopath" from the list.

[Sunfish]

Shark patrol, you forgot that the 1918 flu pandemic was an American virus. The next one after this might evolve from Kiwi virii for all we know. However I like my Pangolins as pets, not casserole.

[michigan j]

Of all the hundreds of thousands of people who have flown in internationally, or domestically since all this started, I can't recall one case where someone has tested positive due to exposure to a later confirmed positive case on an aircraft. Sure they contribute to spreading the virus, but they don't seem to be like cruise ships. Even airports with their exposure to the arriving (subsequently) positive cases, have not produced clusters of further virus positives.

https://www.nejm.org/doi/pdf/10.1056/NEJMoa031349
This paper discusses 3 flights where the original SARS (which seems to be less infectious than COVID19) spread on RPT flights. Interestingly, about 1/2 these infections were outside the "2 row zone".

[gordonfvckingramsay]

couldn’t agree more. Every country should add up the costs of their stimulus packages. Then take that figure and double it as it would not have been enough to compensate everyone affected. Then triple it for all the deaths inflicted on loved ones, the emotional stress this has had on people and the massive inconvenience. For Australia that number would be currently around $600 billion. Wipe that off what we owe China and if anything is left over, repossess some of the assets the Chinese government has bought here using state owned companies as cover.

as for July 2020 trip to Europe. No hope. Rebook for either May/ June or late August/ September next year. July is horrendous in Europe. It is absolute peak period. Unbelievable crowded and twice as expensive. Huge queues for tourist attractions. Even with probably reduced numbers next year.

Exactly! The Chinese never lose face culture has been the cause of this, they lied by omission and let this virus loose on an unsuspecting world. Unfortunately it is unlikely that any of the worlds governments will have the balls to offend China....again. We can live in hope though.

#CHARGECHINA

[cattletruck]

"When all this is over we should send China the bill."

Why?

Because their top levels of government are rotten to the core. The everyday Chinese people are much like you and I and I hold no grudge against them, but I'd really like to see an end to their current way of governance for too many reasons to mention.

[SOPS]

The reason we are in this mess in the first place was everyone was afraid of offending China.

[downdata]

Because their top levels of government are rotten to the core. The everyday Chinese people are much like you and I and I hold no grudge against them, but I'd really like to see an end to their current way of governance for too many reasons to mention.

They are already paying your bill. All $85 billion of it.
https://tradingeconomics.com/australia/exports/china

[directimped]

In a time of crisis, it never ceases to amaze how pathetic people really are. Hoarding, stealing, finger pointing.

We've enjoyed 100 years of economic growth and are supposedly more wealthy than we have ever been. Yet somehow we have completely failed to prepare for any sort of abnormal situation. Be that bushfires or a virus pandemic.

Bill Gates warned us in 2016, nobody listened. Stop pointing the finger at China, it is pathetic. We only have ourselves to blame. We voted for this. We voted to cut taxes, cut public services, line the pockets of the 1% and send profits and jobs offshore or pay no tax. We tolerate greedy corporations and sociopathic CEOs.

Well the chickens have come home to roost. We could have had a national firefighting aerial fleet, we could have had better hospitals. We voted for lower taxes and franking credits. Now people complain when everything turns to ****.

Deal with it. If you don't like how things have turned out, demand change from your government. That's democracy.
​​​​

[machtuk]

Well said, we have been blindly feeding at the economic trough like pigs! Our economy is like a single engined plane, no second engine in case of failure!

[John Citizen]

We voted for this. We voted to cut taxes, cut public services, line the pockets of the 1% and send profits and jobs offshore or pay no tax.


No I did not vote for any of these individual policies. I just voted for a political party. Both major political parties have been in power since I have been voting. All the political parties are responsible. Not once did they ever consult me as an individual and ask would I like a certain policy as you mentioned above. I do not accept personal responsibility. Either political party would have done the same.

We tolerate greedy corporations and sociopathic CEOs

Most people don't enjoy working for a sociopathic but what can they do ? Either accept the job or be unemployed? Or perhaps go on strike or take Industrial action ?

Look what happened several years ago when the workers protested (were taking legal PIA) and got locked out. What else can people do?

[cattletruck]

They are already paying your bill. All $85 billion of it.
This import just cost us $66 billion only yesterday. Then there is the horrendous impact to business and the stock exchange in the last couple of weeks. Add disrespect of patent rights, stealing secrets, buying our industries, and infiltration of Chinese spies. Your $85b number is now looking a lot like chump change.

We voted for this.
No we didn't. Those sorts given the Chairmans Lounge treatment believed it was the medicine we deserved for continued membership.

[Squawk7700]

The letter that they sent to pilots to stand them down was disgraceful and clearly written by someone without a heart.

[f1yhigh]

The letter that they sent to pilots to stand them down was disgraceful and clearly written by someone without a heart.

What did it say?

[Fliegenmong]

"I don't think there would be 10 of thousands of similar vacations to that."

Um, pretty much guarantee there would not be 10s thousands trips like that....WTF charters a private Yacht around Croatia for 2 weeks!?!

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

https://www.nejm.org/doi/pdf/10.1056/NEJMoa031349
This paper discusses 3 flights where the original SARS (which seems to be less infectious than COVID19) spread on RPT flights. Interestingly, about 1/2 these infections were outside the "2 row zone".
It discusses 3 flights which carried a known SARS carrier, and follows up the other passengers (although only about 40% of them). Of those 3 flights, it was considered to have only spread on one. Even then it is only supposition the others were infected on the aircraft. They were exposed both before and after the flights. The state of infection of the carrier and duration of exposure seem to be the major factors, if it was transmitted on the flights.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Perth Radio 6PR news this morning announcing that Woolworths - The Group - has just laid off 8,000 workers - mostly from its Alcohol outlets and associated businesses / industries.

Where does this place QANTAS management's statement to place xx unemployed QANTAS staff with Woolworths?

Would not Woolworths look after their 'own' first?

No Cheers....

[Foxxster]

Perth Radio 6PR news this morning announcing that Woolworths - The Group - has just laid off 8,000 workers - mostly from its Alcohol outlets and associated businesses / industries.

Where does this place QANTAS management's statement to place xx unemployed QANTAS staff with Woolworths?

Would not Woolworths look after their 'own' first?

No Cheers....

they are doing their best.The government's recent lockdown policy has also stymied Endeavour's demerger plans, with pubs and hotels falling into the 'non-essential' services bucket. Over 8000 ALH staff were stood down on Monday, Woolworths said.

The company is trying to re-employ as many affected staff members into other divisions of the company as possible, with 650 already offered roles and a further 2000 set to be redeployed in the next 24 hours

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

GOOD LUCK TO ALL OF THEM.................................

CHEEERRRSSS........

[Kaboobla]

They are cherry picking the pilot stand downs. Some line pilots / trainers regarded as friendly to the companies industrial relations plans are still being paid and are flying. Some very public and obvious names involved.

Things are going to get nasty now real quick.

[dragon man]

They are cherry picking the pilot stand downs. Some line pilots / trainers regarded as friendly to the companies industrial relations plans are still being paid and are flying. Some very public and obvious names involved.

Things are going to get nasty now real quick.

That is what happens when you have a compliant union and is why there is a seniority system.

[normanton]

Where does it say they must use the seniority system to ration the flying?

[dragon man]

Where does it say they must use the seniority system to ration the flying?

All flying in Qantas is allocated by seniority. There is no such thing as rationed flying in our contract.

[normanton]

Well there is. It's called minimum divisor / guarantee.

Perhaps you could use your retired wisdom to explain to us how everything comes back online?

[dragon man]

Well there is. It's called minimum divisor / guarantee.

Perhaps you could use your retired wisdom to explain to us how everything comes back online?

I have no idea I am replying to the dribble that you post.

[Asturias56]

"here is no such thing as rationed flying in our contract."

That's true but all contracts are rather meaningless pieces of paper in the current situation

If necessary the Company will declare Force Majeure or just go into administration

[VH DSJ]

$1bn loan sends Qantas shares soaring

A $1.05bn loan secured by Qantas to help the airline see through the coronavirus crisis has sent its share price soaring, closing up 26 per cent at $3.27.

Provided by 10 local and offshore lenders including Australia’s big four banks, the loan was made against seven near new Boeing 787-9 aircraft for which Qantas paid cash.


https://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/aviation/1bn-loan-sends-qantas-shares-soaring/news-story/c556cb89e712f64d7dc7ec407e5d940c?

[Asturias56]

"Force Majeure, is not mentioned in the contract, so it can’t be declared."

just try them.................

[Led Zeppelin]

Agree - Asturia or whoever you are; bugger off

[Keg]

I don’t think anyone wants to be flying 160 hour rosters whilst others on the fleet are on stand down. I’m sure there is a way that we can ensure that where there is flying to be done on a fleet that it is shared as much as possible. I’d be happy to fly half a roster if it meant everyone got half a roster.

Of course for that to happen it means that we need to be doing half the flying and that’s still a fair way away. It also means that A330 pilots may be getting half a roster whilst the 747 pilots remain stood down. That’s not a great outcome either.

Full credit to the managers who have to work through this particular bun fight!

[directimped]

I'd seriously consider a part time or casual option to spread work amongst the pilot group when flying returns so we can all have a basic income of some sort.

Now is not the time to be greedy people, if some go full roster others will get nothing. Think about your friends and coworkers. I'm okay with that and I hope it is offered to us.

[ExtraShot]

I'd seriously consider a part time or casual option to spread work amongst the pilot group when flying returns so we can all have a basic income of some sort.

Now is not the time to be greedy people, if some go full roster others will get nothing. Think about your friends and coworkers. I'm okay with that and I hope it is offered to us.

Great Post. Hopefully flexi lines or some such is how flying is ramped back up as demand comes back.

[dragon man]

https://omny.fm/shows/the-alan-jones-breakfast-show/virgin-australia-ceo-paul-scurrah-on-qantas

This is very very good.

[dragon man]

I don’t think anyone wants to be flying 160 hour rosters whilst others on the fleet are on stand down. I’m sure there is a way that we can ensure that where there is flying to be done on a fleet that it is shared as much as possible. I’d be happy to fly half a roster if it meant everyone got half a roster.

Of course for that to happen it means that we need to be doing half the flying and that’s still a fair way away. It also means that A330 pilots may be getting half a roster whilst the 747 pilots remain stood down. That’s not a great outcome either.

Full credit to the managers who have to work through this particular bun fight!

Wholeheartedly agree, this will be difficult to work out but can be done so everyone gets something.

[Dookie on Drums]

https://omny.fm/shows/the-alan-jones-breakfast-show/virgin-australia-ceo-paul-scurrah-on-qantas

This is very very good.

Absolutely brilliant

[PoppaJo]

Looks like a large lot took the Woolworths option of redeployment. 3000 off to WOW.

[Johhny Utah]

Alan Jones. What a d!ckhead.

[Asturias56]

Agree - Asturia or whoever you are; bugger off


Thank you Sir or Madam for your kind words............... I wish you well in your future career

[dr dre]

Alan Jones. What a d!ckhead.

Noted “expert at everything” Alan Jones, who until just last week was still spruiking the debunked “herd immunity” theory and was downplaying the pandemic as “hysteria” and “nonsense” a few weeks ago.

After going onto his FB page to read what he had written I’ve noticed he writes very short sentences and paragraphs loaded with very emotional language for people who obviously don’t think too hard about anything.

Alan Jones has no experience or skill in anything apart from his own big mouth and should be listened to by no one with a brain.

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

Unless you want to win the Bledisloe.

[Des Dimona]

Jones has a track record in many areas, including the law. Wikipedia provides an insight into the type of person he is.

His broadcasting has frequently got him into trouble.

[KRviator]

Qantas has told some 20,000 employees that they will not be eligible for paid sick leave — leaving staff who may have been exposed to coronavirus in financial peril.

According to Qantas' own FAQ:
Sick/carer's leave will not apply during any period of stand down, so you will continue to be stood down and will not be entitled to any sick/carer's leave payments.

But a Qantas spokesman said it wasn't possible for employees to take sick leave from work when there was no work. "Employees can access their annual leave and have early access to future annual leave and long-service leave if they have leave accrued," he said.Am I missing something? You can't take Sick leave, to be absent from work, as there is no work. But you are allowed to take Annual leave to absent yourself from work, even when there is no work.

[Led Zeppelin]

Sick Leave is an interesting one - Annual leave and sick leave are generally both accrued as part of many employment agreements.

I don't know whether it will hinge on the fact that employees are still employed, even though stand down clauses of applicable agreements have been enacted and whether those stand down clauses specifically provide for the cancellation of sick leave during this period.

Annual leave accrues during a stand down because the employee is not "redundant", so the issue of sick leave will probably be a significant decision if it ever gets to a formal tribunal.

Everyone needs to be a bit careful what they wish for, because if a tribunal sick leave decision goes against a company, that may well result in immediate redundancies, which is clearly not desirable.

[junior.VH-LFA]

I've heard the 747 retirement has officially been brought forward, anyone able to confirm this?

[Sunfish]

Qantas is correct about sick leave.

[crosscutter]

Qantas is correct about sick leave.

The EAs have specific stand down provisions which take precedence over FWA legislation. Unfortunately for pilots the NES (min employment standards) do not include stood down provisions.

So yes, correct legally...but that’s the only way it is right.

[Vindiesel]

Stand down is generally available under section 524 of the Fair Work Act. Nothing to do with the NES.

[crosscutter]

And section 524 and 525 does not apply because the collective EAs take precedence over FWA legislation. However, the NES conditions (about 10) are non negotiable and are included even if not included in an EA.

All I’m saying is look at your EA for guidance...not the legislation.

[Paragraph377]

F#cking Joyce and Morrison. If people are put out of work because of a decision by our Government then the Government should be paying every cent of their wages. They spend hundreds of billions on foreign aid and on armaments each year so how about some help for their own people for once! Otherwise they need to be prepared for what happens when you make 2 million desperate people unemployed overnight.

[Asturias56]

"If people are put out of work because of a decision by our Government then the Government should be paying every cent of their wages."

For a start it's not just the Australian Govt. If there were no restrictions in Australia Qantas would still be in a hole as they can't fly to most destinations internationally

Second it isn't the Govt's job to pay every cent of everyone's wages - in an emergency it's their job to make sure everyone is safe and survives . That may mean paying everyone the absolute minimum to keep body & soul together rather than the salaries they've been pulling down for years. They may ask you where your savings are..

[Paragraph377]

"If people are put out of work because of a decision by our Government then the Government should be paying every cent of their wages."

For a start it's not just the Australian Govt. If there were no restrictions in Australia Qantas would still be in a hole as they can't fly to most destinations internationally

Second it isn't the Govt's job to pay every cent of everyone's wages - in an emergency it's their job to make sure everyone is safe and survives . That may mean paying everyone the absolute minimum to keep body & soul together rather than the salaries they've been pulling down for years. They may ask you where your savings are..

Well mate they are on a gaurenteed salary and their super is protected by legislation so they are fine. It’s not their cafe’s, hair salons or cleaning businesses being closed. It’s not the Politicians who are being destroyed and devastated at the moment. They aren’t being told to go home with no weekly pay packet. Those f#ckers always have a ‘get out of jail free card’ and escape the pain that everyone else goes through. I don’t recall Morrison, Turnbull, Rudd, Keating, Hawke, Howard, Abbott, Gillard , Whitlam, Frazer, Holt or others fighting in a trench in Vietnam, Iraq or Afghanistan, do you? Gutless finger pointers who don’t feel the effects of bad decisions. Parasites sitting in their ivory towers in fantasy land of Canberra. Let’s put them in the Centrelink que, take away half of their super and destroy their careers and future. See how they like it. Pr#cks

[morno]

Well mate they are on a gaurenteed salary and their super is protected by legislation so they are fine. It’s not their cafe’s, hair salons or cleaning businesses being closed. It’s not the Politicians who are being destroyed and devastated at the moment. They aren’t being told to go home with no weekly pay packet. Those f#ckers always have a ‘get out of jail free card’ and escape the pain that everyone else goes through. I don’t recall Morrison, Turnbull, Rudd, Keating, Hawke, Howard, Abbott, Gillard , Whitlam, Frazer, Holt or others fighting in a trench in Vietnam, Iraq or Afghanistan, do you? Gutless finger pointers who don’t feel the effects of bad decisions. Parasites sitting in their ivory towers in fantasy land of Canberra. Let’s put them in the Centrelink que, take away half of their super and destroy their careers and future. See how they like it. Pr#cks

So would you prefer that we just carry on as normal and kill a few thousand people instead?

I’m on stand down like many others, I don’t expect the government to pay me what I was earning beforehand. I expect to get through this by finding general work or using what savings I have, like a responsible adult should.