Cold War Cat growling again

[Cat Techie]

Bentwaters Cold War Museum's SEPECAT Jaguar XX741 goes for a run today. Was a reservist RAF officer driving it. Enjoy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAOLtkis0eM&feature=youtu.be&fbclid=IwAR2YkQODuyZICatJCuKHOL0pK4HvpBzYB83t9hxHZDo4K2OmoLQ gkX8-4-0

[NickB]

Was it normal for the brake chute cone to dangle freely like that after deployment?

[NutLoose]

NO,
The GR1a used the weighted noddy cap that was attached to the chute to help it deploy if memory serves me correctly, but they have a later chute I believe but an early noddy cap, so its probably a work around. On the GR1a when the pilot pulled the chute handle, two jaws opened at 3 and 9 oclock and the cap fell off pulling out the chute.
The noddy caps used to get the proverbial beaten out of them bouncing along the runway when the chute was jettisoned and sometimes could be a pig to refit..

You can see how it should be in this image,

https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/jaguar-landing-on-grass-at-farnborough-picture-id646268098?s=2048x2048


https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/800x400/1584388771_0c32d1943132fc9ec33d45c815f93702a07214f6.jpeg

[Tashengurt]

I'd imagine BV is getting all misty eyed round about now!

[pr00ne]

Saucer of milk for the pussycat?

[Krystal n chips]

NO,
The GR1a used the weighted noddy cap that was attached to the chute to help it deploy if memory serves me correctly, but they have a later chute I believe but an early noddy cap, so its probably a work around. On the GR1a when the pilot pulled the chute handle, two jaws opened at 3 and 9 oclock and the cap fell off pulling out the chute.
The noddy caps used to get the proverbial beaten out of them bouncing along the runway when the chute was jettisoned and sometimes could be a pig to refit..

You can see how it should be in this image,

https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/jaguar-landing-on-grass-at-farnborough-picture-id646268098?s=2048x2048


https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/800x400/1584388771_0c32d1943132fc9ec33d45c815f93702a07214f6.jpeg

Bit of an understatement about the noddy caps and the difficulty in refitting them. However, after a Eureka ! moment, the chutes were, as I recall, dispensed with and a chaff dispenser fitted. This could also be "fun " to replenish .

[Vendee]

Bit of an understatement about the noddy caps and the difficulty in refitting them. However, after a Eureka ! moment, the chutes were, as I recall, dispensed with and a chaff dispenser fitted. This could also be "fun " to replenish .

I don't know about the Jag's later days but in the earlier days, the chaff dispenser was a war time fit only. We used to fit them on Taceval/Mineval part one (aircraft generation) but they were usually replaced again with parachutes before they flew.
The Jag chute was quite notorious for detaching as soon as it deployed but I recall once seeing the the entire metal chute canister and noddy cap plop out onto the runway on touchdown, followed by some urgent braking.

[Cat Techie]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Awlav1MGzxM

The first taxi run of the day.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vv_o6B976_E

The second.

Thanks to Mike for the films.

[Bob Viking]

Of course it gets me a little hot under the collar. The guys have clearly done a great job getting it up and running.

As for chute canisters plopping out on deployment some research may need to be conducted as to how many occurrences there were after landaways with no engineering support that required a chute landing.

All I remember from my aircrew servicing was a fiddly little pin that had to be removed after the cap was closed and the message ‘don’t stream the chute on a landaway’ ringing in my ears. Unless flight safety dictated otherwise of course.

BV

[Cat Techie]

NO,
The GR1a used the weighted noddy cap that was attached to the chute to help it deploy if memory serves me correctly, but they have a later chute I believe but an early noddy cap, so its probably a work around. On the GR1a when the pilot pulled the chute handle, two jaws opened at 3 and 9 oclock and the cap fell off pulling out the chute.
The noddy caps used to get the proverbial beaten out of them bouncing along the runway when the chute was jettisoned and sometimes could be a pig to refit..

You can see how it should be in this image,

https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/jaguar-landing-on-grass-at-farnborough-picture-id646268098?s=2048x2048


https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/800x400/1584388771_0c32d1943132fc9ec33d45c815f93702a07214f6.jpeg

Yes Nutty, it is a work around. The RAF modified the aircraft to have a sprung loaded fairing that was hinged on the bottom of frame 43 and would spring open when the handle was pulled. Chute had a sprung loaded drogue chute to pull the main out of the canister. The drogue pack had a wire lock that had to be removed once the door was shut. Reason for the mod? The cost of repairing and replacing all the noddy caps that were damaged everytime that they were used. XX741 was retired before having the brake parachute mod carried out (MOD 1148), but as said, we have a post mod chute. Indian aircraft all are pre mod so the pre mod parachutes that have life have value.Having our noddy cap (our only one) bouncing about on the floor is not a wise idea. The para cord mod worked as I expected it.

[Tashengurt]

Only packed one Jag 'chute during my time. Fiddly bugger but not as bad as the Lightning as I recall.
I can't remember any negative feedback as to whether it worked at the other end.

[Stitchbitch]

Agreed, the Jag brake para was very fiddly, especially the pre-mod type. Luckily my Squadron had a jet that could stop then land so we didn’t have the issue of repacking. Much like the emergency escape chutes that were frequently used 🤣.

[weemonkey]

Yes Nutty, it is a work around. The RAF modified the aircraft to have a sprung loaded fairing that was hinged on the bottom of frame 43 and would spring open when the handle was pulled. Chute had a sprung loaded drogue chute to pull the main out of the canister. The drogue pack had a wire lock that had to be removed once the door was shut. Reason for the mod? The cost of repairing and replacing all the noddy caps that were damaged everytime that they were used. XX741 was retired before having the brake parachute mod carried out (MOD 1148), but as said, we have a post mod chute. Indian aircraft all are pre mod so the pre mod parachutes that have life have value.Having our noddy cap (our only one) bouncing about on the floor is not a wise idea. The para cord mod worked as I expected it.

Slightly OT, did the Jag have a fuel dump facility and if so where was the out~let?

[NutLoose]

I don't know about the Jag's later days but in the earlier days, the chaff dispenser was a war time fit only. We used to fit them on Taceval/Mineval part one (aircraft generation) but they were usually replaced again with parachutes before they flew.
The Jag chute was quite notorious for detaching as soon as it deployed but I recall once seeing the the entire metal chute canister and noddy cap plop out onto the runway on touchdown, followed by some urgent braking.

In RAFG we had permanent flare dispensers in front of the eng oil panels and a phimat chaff dispenser on the stb outboard and a ECM on the Port outboard which was fitted on exercises and we had a phimat fired off in a HAS full of guys by some asshole pilot as an inject.

When the can and chute fell out complete, you would often still find the pip pin in the tailplane where the liney had forgot to fit it to hold the can in.. ;) Also had one deploy over the range much to the pilots surprise...

[NutLoose]

The vent was the "Donkeys Dick" that is directly above the chutes Noddy Cap, they used to vent from them when refuelling if the valve was a bit dodgy, sometimes really badly and in flight they could be a give away as to where the Jag was as you could get a white streak of venting fuel behind them.
see
https://www.airteamimages.com/sepecat-jaguar_XX835_united-kingdom---royal-air-force_2592_large.html


https://youtu.be/zUoX_OyU9gQ

You could also jettison the drop tanks that were a standard inboard pylon fit.

[NutLoose]

https://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/blog/jaguar-the-accidental-cold-war-warrior/

watch the clips.

[oldmansquipper]

Nice to see the Jag mobile again. I can claim some knowledge of the Brake chute system on all jags, but it’s not all my fault!

The original chute design was of french origin and very similar to those in Mirage jets, the canopy had to be laced into a bag and the lacing progressively tightened over time, packing it was a very labour and time intensive job (30-40 minutes per pack IIRC) add to that the damage to the noddy caps on every landing and the general lack of spares it was not a good system. Exercises were a nightmare! Thankfully BAe (I think) came up with the hinged door mod. The chute could now be packed straight into the metal chute can without fabric pack to lace. You did need a big But simple piece of ground equipment (as opposed to a big and simple packer for the original) but it was much much better. In a bay packing took no more than 5 min per chute! HOWEVER it rapidly became apparent that pilots were not (For whatever reason) going to repack their chutes on land away. The old type chute would no longer fit into the can of course so a hybrid system was developed at in our bay at Laarbruch (By SEM & STF) An old style bag was reduced in size and a fabric deployment system added. It was packed at base by Squippers. The chute could be carried as a spare on the jet and fitted by the pilot on land away. It slotted into the can from which the first chute had deployed. Pilots could handle that.

Which brings me on to Jag Mod 1148 itself! Wonderful idea. By the time the programme was in full swing I had moved to the SE Eng Support Authority and was responsible for (among other things) provisioning the non interchangeable chutes for a mixed fleet. Deep joy! I can still recall the call from Abingdon saying that the mod had been embodied using the BAe mod kit on one Jet, and the the chute would not go right in! try as the might it would not fit!

Eventually it became apparent that positional variations of the ‘frame‘ used as a datum point for where to cut the ‘hole’ on a cone shaped rear fuselage were somewhat random. Tolerance build up didn’t help either. Some jets could not be modded at all and a mixed standard continued until its withdrawal from service, I think. I know we had to keep buying all three (my SEM was now a qualified chute in its own right) types until I left the job.

Why have I written all this rubbish which nobody will be interested in?

Well, I’m in lockdown, being of a certain age, and I’m bored! :rolleyes:

Who would have thought that my Shelter Marshall knowledge and training would be useful 40 plus years on

[AnglianAV8R]

Why have I written all this rubbish which nobody will be interested in?


Well I found it interesting. Not sure what that says for me.

[Vendee]

In RAFG we had permanent flare dispensers in front of the eng oil panels and a phimat chaff dispenser on the stb outboard and a ECM on the Port outboard which was fitted on exercises and we had a phimat fired off in a HAS full of guys by some asshole pilot as an inject.



Yes but that came later. Pre-1984 there were no flares and the chaff went in the brake chute hole, even in RAFG.

[Vendee]

Slightly OT, did the Jag have a fuel dump facility and if so where was the out~let?

As Nutty said, it was above the brake chute noddy cap. It was a combined fuel vent and jettison. The jettison was activated by a cockpit switch and IIRC would jettison everything except the collector tanks if left switched on.

[oldmansquipper]

I recollect seeing a rudimentary chaff dispenser made out of what looked like a broomstick and some other bits and bobs. I’m not sure when that was but probably during my time as DI Staff @ Laarbruch 81-85 and would have been when Tiger Tim was Boss. Anyone else remember that?

[Vendee]

I recollect seeing a rudimentary chaff dispenser made out of what looked like a broomstick and some other bits and bobs. I’m not sure when that was but probably during my time as DI Staff @ Laarbruch 81-85 and would have been when Tiger Tim was Boss. Anyone else remember that?

I was on II when TT was OC. I can't remember much about the chaff dispenser except that it was the shape of brake chute canister and I think had about 6 chaff cartridges fitted. It was operated by the pilot using the brake chute handle. As I said earlier, they were only fitted for a couple of hours at the start of each excerise.

[Akrotiri bad boy]

I can attest to the fragility of the "Noddy Cap". As a young buck LAC rigger on 226OCU it often fell to me to spend a shift in the riggery repairing split Noddy Caps. The caps were stitched back together by drilling holes either side of the split and then threading locking wire through them to pull the split closed. The finished repair was then slavvered in mastic. Niiiiiice :ok:

[NutLoose]

Well, I’m in lockdown, being of a certain age, and I’m bored!
Who would have thought that my Shelter Marshall knowledge and training would be useful 40 plus years on

Liberally pour a circle of fullers earth on the floor, place a chair in the middle and bodge tape yourself to it, you will be ok.


..

[Less Hair]

Is there any chance to get it airworthy and flying again?

[Vendee]

Is there any chance to get it airworthy and flying again?

Not in this country without manufacturers support.

[Wycombe]

Is there any chance to get it airworthy and flying again?

That "fast taxi" looked like it was plenty fast enough!

[Less Hair]

I had been thinking about the legal side of things.

[MAINJAFAD]

That "fast taxi" looked like it was plenty fast enough!

The driver took the aircraft out of burner at 100kts and was doing 125kts when he pulled the chute.

The Chute was a bitch to get back into the can after we first took it out to check it and proved just as difficult to get the shackle to engage on the aircraft when we refitted the cone after fitting the can (there is a sensor rod that automatically initiates a parachute jettison if the noddy cap comes off without the parachute deployment handle being pulled). As oldmansquipper has correctly stated, the build quality tolerances on the Cat are somewhat random.

[MAINJAFAD]

I had been thinking about the legal side of things.

No OEM support for the Airframe or Engines. Jaguar almost across the board is a Complex airframe as regards a CAA PtF so that issue kills any chance of 741 flying right off the bat.

If there was support, there are a still a shed load of other issues that would stop this aircraft from flying.

No documentation of component histories , No Live Escape system (Election seat is missing the main gun and rocket pack, plus everything else that goes bang as regards cartridges) , Non Aerospace complainant materials used, Life-ex Wing and Engines fitted (former use of the engines was for blade blending training at Cosford). No Nav Attack avionics fitted which means no HUD, which is the primary flight information display system.

[Less Hair]

Thanks. Still super impressive to get it going again.