Scatsta IAC

[Abdulbandul]

So I hear on the grape vine that Bristow have lost the IAC contract to Babcock...

[Same again]

Is this the same Babcock who are withdrawing from offshore O&G contracts? Nice move ;-)

[PlasticCabDriver]

don’t know about winning the IAC, but NHV are advertising for a 169 TRE at Blackpool so perhaps they’ve lost that one.

[helicrazi]

don’t know about winning the IAC, but NHV are advertising for a 169 TRE at Blackpool so perhaps they’ve lost that one.

IIRC babcock lost the blackpool contract to nhv last year but nhv couldnt man it, so the customer took a 1 year extension with babcock until nhv could sort things out.

Presuming the 169 vacancy is nhv starting to man the contract I'd expect more vacancies to follow.

standing by to be corrected ;)

[Apate]

IIRC babcock lost the blackpool contract to nhv last year but nhv couldnt man it, so the customer took a 1 year extension with babcock until nhv could sort things out.

Presuming the 169 vacancy is nhv starting to man the contract I'd expect more vacancies to follow.

standing by to be corrected ;)

Pretty much spot on ;)

[Same again]

How can NHV win a contract (that they have presumably convinced the organisation that they could perform standing on their head at a much lower price with far superior equipment much more competently) and then once awarded it say "Oh sorry we can't do that just yet"? No wonder the industry is in such a mess.

[helicrazi]

How can NHV win a contract (that they have presumably convinced the organisation that they could perform standing on their head at a much lower price with far superior equipment much more competently) and then once awarded it say "Oh sorry we can't do that just yet"? No wonder the industry is in such a mess.

Lack of pilots in the market, everyone needs pilots, I can count easily 30 vacancies in the uk market, offshore and onshore, there just aren't enough pilots for positions...

[Hot_LZ]

There are enough pilots. Plenty of pilots. But some companies insist on not paying for the requisite training. NHV for example will not touch anyone without the type rating.

The industry is full of 🤦🏼‍♂️🤷🏼‍♂️ examples where the client accepts the fact the operator can not provide what they claimed they could. Our friends in yellow provide another example with the Dutch SAR contract...

LZ

[ApolloHeli]

As a recent CPL/IR pilot with low hours, it certainly doesn’t feel like there is a lack of pilots. Many operators have said no so far.... NHV actually being one of them - as mentioned, might be the lack of type rating.

[helicrazi]

As a recent CPL/IR pilot with low hours, it certainly doesn’t feel like there is a lack of pilots. Many operators have said no so far.... NHV actually being one of them - as mentioned, might be the lack of type rating.

Just wait for the IAC to be announced....

[Same again]

Just wait for the IAC to be announced....

I wouldn't hold your breath for that one. I think in these circumstances you will find that TUPE applies and the Bristow pilots will simply change uniform - again.

[helicrazi]

I wouldn't hold your breath for that one. I think in these circumstances you will find that TUPE applies and the Bristow pilots will simply change uniform - again.

Even if TUPE does apply, there isn't that many at Scatsta to take across, the contractors at Scatsta wont be entitled to it.

[Same again]

Perhaps but Bristow contractors will become Babcock contractors.

[helicrazi]

Perhaps but Bristow contractors will become Babcock contractors.

Apparently Babcock dont do contractors after IR35....

[Same again]

Then perhaps Babcock will do an NHV and Bristow will get a 12 month extension while Babcock spend a fortune recruiting and training full-time pilots....

[Non-Driver]

Archie Bethel, chief executive of parent company Babcock International, speaking on a 12 February half-year trading update, said that the business “does not intend to invest further to stay in that [offshore] market”.

[cyclic]

NHV for example will not touch anyone without the type rating.

apart from the 8 that are going through or have just gone through their TR. It’s a rumour network but all I can say is that you haven’t networked very well. Perhaps they don’t take the kind of people who just whinge on prune?

[Abdulbandul]

I just presumed the Babcock statement about leaving O&G was just a bit of corporate bluster a few days before a potential contract announcement. I’d doubt the oil companies would want less operators fighting for their business, especially if they go back to having to pay Bristow prices if nobody else can provide the aircraft.

[Apate]

I just presumed the Babcock statement about leaving O&G was just a bit of corporate bluster a few days before a potential contract announcement. I’d doubt the oil companies would want less operators fighting for their business, especially if they go back to having to pay Bristow prices if nobody else can provide the aircraft.

There are times when I miss a "Like" button on PPRuNe :cool:

[Informative lad]

With that confirmed it's the end of an era by the looks of it.

[tascats]

In the press now

https://www.shetnews.co.uk/2020/03/04/fifty-job-losses-as-scatsta-airport-set-to-close/

[Abdulbandul]

I really hope it’s pretty much a change of overalls and move to Sumburgh for the majority of them.

[Informative lad]

There'll be no transfering of jobs apart from those perhaps at Bristows. Airport staff, ATC etc are separate and from what I've heard have been told very little.

[HeliMannUK]

apart from the 8 that are going through or have just gone through their TR. It’s a rumour network but all I can say is that you haven’t networked very well. Perhaps they don’t take the kind of people who just whinge on prune?

Agreed, an ex-student was offered a job recently with NHV (aberdeen) when he just got his IR with the bare minimum hours (270ish). He turned it down for a job with Bristows (aberdeen).

I took a job in Aberdeen with 1000hours onshore and an IR that had never been used, just last year. I am bonded into the type rating, id say to anyone wanting a job here to come up and press the flesh with some CVs. Emails are too easy to be ignored. Get knocking.

[Cyclic Hotline]

Archie Bethel, chief executive of parent company Babcock International, speaking on a 12 February half-year trading update, said that the business “does not intend to invest further to stay in that [offshore] market”.

Thia is an excellent exit strategy. Take one of the big important contracts, then open the negotiation to sell the company.

[Abdulbandul]

Nice to hear that Babcock are trying their hardest not to TUPE the Bristow staff after winning the IAC contract. I’m pretty sure Bristow did the decent thing when they took over the contract in Norwich?!. All sounds a bit petty to me.

[helicrazi]

Nice to hear that Babcock are trying their hardest not to TUPE the Bristow staff after winning the IAC contract. I’m pretty sure Bristow did the decent thing when they took over the contract in Norwich?!. All sounds a bit petty to me.

Norwich contract was at the same base, nothing to do with the decent thing, its a legal obligation.

Scatsta IAC no longer exists, the contract is now made up of fewer operators and from a different airport. Why would TUPE apply?

Im sat on the fence, makes no odds to me, but let's not make out like one company did people favours. Law is law.

[Northernstar]

Bristow? TUPE obligations? You have got to be kidding. They wormed their way out of as many TUPE obligations on the former CHC SAR bases in the U.K. as soon as they could, in some cases via pressuring people to sign new contracts for various reasons. When they took over Humberside they did the same. Let’s not kid anyone into thinking any company’s management are better than the other. Middle managers and particularly HR depts are self serving and utterly ruthless. Besides as above TUPE does not apply. In fact if a contract has ended and a new one is beginning even at the same base it does not apply. But as shown where it should in such cases as NHV/Dancopter v CHC re Norwich Shell base it meant nothing and the crew were dumped out by both companies. Zero return for loyalty and service. It’s the world we’re in. Sorry to be negative but it’s the reality.

[Abdulbandul]

Ah right I stand corrected!

I was under the impression that Bristow took on the ex CHC SAR engineers from Sumburgh at the least and I also thought that NHV took on the ex Dancopter engineers at Norwich?!?!

[finalchecksplease]

The reality is that companies these days will take the employees if they need them under TUPE and if there is no need they will all try their utmost not to because of the cost & issues involved.
As we all know if people are doing the same job and some are getting better terms & conditions after being TUPE'd across that this will create issues.
I heard that in the past that some companies who lost a contract increased terms & conditions just before the TUPE'ing across happens, which if true might be another reason why the other company is reluctant to take employees across.

[EESDL]

TUPE is not a ‘law’ which can be consistently relied upon to be applied when it comes to O&G.
It is not relevant if a contract has expired.
not applicable at Blackpool as Babcock still has a contract their so it is up to employer to re-assign staff or make redundant.
Any staff being accepted by NHV will be for mutually beneficial reasons - nowt to do with TUPE.
indeed, TUPE is a waste of ink.

[Abdulbandul]

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/275252/bis-14-502-employment-rights-on-the-transfer-of-an-undertaking.pdf

I tried reading this but it was too difficult.

But what you said about “ if the contract has finished TUPE doesn’t apply” makes perfect sense now I think about it.

[Sevarg]

Abdulbandul and Northenstar. Bristow did take on the Engineers in Sumburgh and Stornoway when they took the contract from CHC as CHC did when they took the contract from Bristow years before. As for the rest of the crews they took some but I don't know if it was all. I beleave that the same was true for Lee on Sea but don't know for sure.
All the other bases were new bases so not covered by TUPE.
As for the T's and C's I don't know, if they did change I haven't heard any moans from the people I am still in touch with.
Just t put the record right.

[exlatccatsa]

Perhaps a new lease of life for Scatsta and a new role
www.shetnews.co.uk/2020/06/16/space-centre-team-keen-to-bring-scatsta-airport-back-to-life/THE TEAM behind plans for a space centre in Unst have expressed an interest in using Scatsta Airport in a bid to “bring it back to life”.

The airport is due to close at the end of the week (https://www.shetnews.co.uk/2020/06/15/search-for-future-use-of-scatsta-continues-as-airport-gets-set-to-close-on-friday/) as its oil and gas flights move to Sumburgh Airport.

Shetland Space Centre (SSC), however, has pinpointed the facility as a possible ‘technology and space hub’, which could potentially operate while the runway is kept active.

Chief executive Frank Strang believes it could also still be used to support the oil and gas industry in addition to the space sector.

Strang has spoken publicly about the space centre’s desire to use Scatsta because the “witching hour is almost upon us”.

“We need to move now in order to try and get things done,” he told Shetland News.
https://mirror2.shetnews.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/1T6A3730_1-470x676.jpg (https://mirror2.shetnews.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/1T6A3730_1.jpg)Frank Strang.

“There is a real danger that the airfield will be stripped and dismantled when it closes at the end of the month. It would be a major disaster for Shetland and the North Mainland if that were to happen.”

Shetland Space Centre wrote to landowner Shetland Islands Council (SIC) “several months ago” to express its interest in the site.

“We believe it would be possible to create a model that would be sustainable and support both the space sector and the oil and gas industry,” Strang said.

“The ideal solution would for the SIC, as owner of Scatsta, to allow SSC to manage it and develop it out.

“It will take a couple of years in my opinion but there are some space-related activities that could happen by the autumn such as engine testing and R and D [research and development] as well as trying to attract some commercial business back to the site.”

The company aims to create a satellite launching facility at Lamba Ness in Unst, but it does not yet have planning permission.

A consultation event was recently held before a full planning application is submitted.

Strang said that there is an “obvious synergy” between Unst and Scatsta in the North Mainland.

Shetland Space Centre believes that Scatsta could be an “integral part of the emerging space industry on Shetland and having access to the runway would allow clients to fly in much closer to the launch site than landing at Sumburgh”.

“Some of the SSC clients would envisage light manufacturing and testing at Scatsta and the existing hangarage would be perfect and fit for purpose,” Strang added.

He said, though, that it is “absolutely essential” that a lot of the equipment at Scatsta is left on site once oil and gas flights stop.

This would keep costs down and ensure an “almost seamless transition”.

“It is important to realise that we are talking about people’s livelihoods and lives so we would make no promises as to jobs and numbers created but I genuinely believe if we keep up the momentum…with SSC that there is a real opportunity to keep Scatsta alive and rebuild the workforce albeit in a different form,” Strang added.

“This will in no way diminish our intention to reinstate Ordale Airport at Baltasound which is seen very much as integral to the success of the launch site at Lamba Ness. However the clock is ticking down, quickly, and whatever is going to be done to retrieve the situation needs to happen very soon.

“There are not too many good news stories out there at the moment but space certainly is one, and if some of that enthusiasm and support can be used to inject life back into one of Shetland’s key assets then it is worth giving it a go I feel.”

Speaking earlier this week SIC chief executive Maggie Sandison said the council will continue to be “open to discussions with anybody who is interesting in airport”, but she declined to comment on matters relating to an individual business.

Shetland Space Centre, meanwhile, already has a memorandum of understanding signed with aerospace giant Lockheed Martin, among interest from other companies.

At the weekend Edinburgh-based space developer Skyrora undertook a test rocket launch in Fethaland in the north mainland of Shetland (https://www.shetnews.co.uk/2020/06/15/first-rocket-launched-from-shetland-soil/).

It was the first time a suborbital rocket was launched from Shetland soil.

Launching satellites commercially from the proposed spaceport in Unst is a potential option for Skyrora.

[PPI Zulu]

don’t know about winning the IAC, but NHV are advertising for a 169 TRE at Blackpool so perhaps they’ve lost that one.
That's a defo. They lost it a long time ago but NHV couldn't start on time so Babcock were extended for a year.

[helicrazi]

That's a defo. They lost it a long time ago but NHV couldn't start on time so Babcock were extended for a year.

Not quite true, but it is a rumour network

[PPI Zulu]

Not quite true, but it is a rumour network
Totally true.

[helicrazi]

Totally true.

in that case it must be true if its 'totally true'

[PPI Zulu]

in that case it must be true if its 'totally true'
Tell me, exactly, what's not true about my original statement.

[helicrazi]

Tell me, exactly, what's not true about my original statement.

The bit between 'but' and 'so'

[PPI Zulu]

The bit between 'but' and 'so'
I stand to be corrected; after all I'm but a minion fed on company bulls:mad:t.
What should go between 'but' and 'so'. Enlighten us.

[nomorehelosforme]

The bit between 'but' and 'so'

Helicrazi,

Please clarify the bit between ’ but’ and ‘so’
maybe a bit too much 2016 Pouilly Fuisse and perhaps missed something?

[PPI Zulu]

Helicrazi,

Please clarify the bit between ’ but’ and ‘so’
maybe a bit too much 2016 Pouilly Fuisse and perhaps missed something?

This is growing more arms and legs than first I thought it might.

So...you indicated that the problem with my original statement was the bit between 'but' and 'so'. To be clear that would be 'NHV couldn't start on time'. So...I indicated that, for the mutual edification of all involved, you might like to correct / juxtapose your version of events so that we might be enlightened.

BTW, I much prefer the Pouilly Fume: the Sauvignon Blanc grape holding a much higher plane in my affections. ABC, darling, ABC ;).

[Bravo73]

To helicrazi,

Did NHV have N3s available for the original start date?

[helicrazi]

To helicrazi,

Did NHV have N3s available for the original start date?

Havent they had N3's available since being founded in 1997? Doesnt sound like N3 availability was the issue. Was the original contract for N3s or 169s?

[PPI Zulu]

Havent they had N3's available since being founded in 1997? Doesnt sound like N3 availability was the issue. Was the original contract for N3s or 169s?
Answering a question with a question? If I say 'I don't know' and your next post says 'Well, where would you find out?' then I definitely have you pegged as an instructor! :rolleyes:

So...I don't know. I thought 169 and there was a two fold issue: 1. Getting 169 into service took / was going to take longer than the time available to start on day one and 2. There was a sub-D dispensation issue for a few of the facilities that don't have a 'D' value to accommodate the 169.

[helicrazi]

Back on topic,

Awful rumours from the Babcock camp regarding this TUPE, fingers crossed to all involved

[Bravo73]

Doesnt sound like N3 availability was the issue. Was the original contract for N3s or 169s?

Ah, so after claiming that you knew the actual reason for NHV not starting on time, it turns out that you didn’t actually know.

It really is a good thing that this is just a rumour network.

[PPI Zulu]

Ah, so after claiming that you knew the actual reason for NHV not starting on time, it turns out that you didn’t actually know.

It really is a good thing that this is just a rumour network.
:D...busted.

[PPI Zulu]

Back on topic,

Awful rumours from the Babcock camp regarding this TUPE, fingers crossed to all involved

Yes, fingers crossed for the Blackpool massive.

However, Bond managed to avoid TUPE when they took the contract from CHC and that was on the re-tooling technicality of a change in aircraft model. The 169 [obviously] is a whole new Type.

[WBOne]

Rumour has it the TUPE'd Bristow folks look to be safe but unfortunately it appears Babcock, either by error or arrogance didn't expect to have to take them on and its thrown their wage-bill out by quite a margin.

A way of filling the the gap is in motion and will impact the existing Babcock pilots who are on a lesser salary than their TUPE'd colleagues.

[PPI Zulu]

Rumour has it the TUPE'd Bristow folks look to be safe but unfortunately it appears Babcock, either by error or arrogance didn't expect to have to take them on and its thrown their wage-bill out by quite a margin.

A way of filling the the gap is in motion and will impact the existing Babcock pilots who are on a lesser salary than their TUPE'd colleagues.

Babcock have been forced to run a redundancy round following the unexpected / unplanned TUPE transfer of approximately ten Bristow Scatsta pilots.

[Apate]

Rumour has it the TUPE'd Bristow folks look to be safe.

Nope. The ex-Bristow employees will be in the same pool as all the existing Babcock pilots and are therefore just as likely to find themselves being made redundant by Babcock . In fact, depending on how the selection is made, they might find themselves more likely to be made redundant??

[PPI Zulu]

Nope. The ex-Bristow employees will be in the same pool as all the existing Babcock pilots and are therefore just as likely to find themselves being made redundant by Babcock . In fact, depending on how the selection is made, they might find themselves more likely to be made redundant??

True and true.

[Bravo73]

Ah. I wonder how the matrix will be written this time...

[SpindleBob]

Nope. The ex-Bristow employees will be in the same pool as all the existing Babcock pilots and are therefore just as likely to find themselves being made redundant by Babcock . In fact, depending on how the selection is made, they might find themselves more likely to be made redundant??


Oh, I love the way there are so many legal experts here. Why did you all become pilots rather than lawyers. Wasn't it this same legal arrogance that got Babcock management into this mess in the first place. Refusing to listen to their lawyers and deciding that they knew better?

TUPE rules aren't always the clearest, but they are law. You can't just pick and choose. The former Bristow pilots and the Babcock pilots are now effectively one group. Maybe get the managers at Babcock to speak to the lawyers and filter that information down to whoever keeps putting out these dopey comments

[PPI Zulu]

Rumour has it the TUPE'd Bristow folks look to be safe but unfortunately it appears Babcock, either by error or arrogance didn't expect to have to take them on and its thrown their wage-bill out by quite a margin.

A way of filling the the gap is in motion and will impact the existing Babcock pilots who are on a lesser salary than their TUPE'd colleagues.

Being TUPEd does not protect you from redundancy. If you survive then your transfered rights are protected for a designated period but, just as with a contract change, economic conditions can be used as a redundancy instrument at any time.

[PPI Zulu]

Oh, I love the way there are so many legal experts here. Why did you all become pilots rather than lawyers. Wasn't it this same legal arrogance that got Babcock management into this mess in the first place. Refusing to listen to their lawyers and deciding that they knew better?

TUPE rules aren't always the clearest, but they are law. You can't just pick and choose. The former Bristow pilots and the Babcock pilots are now effectively one group. Maybe get the managers at Babcock to speak to the lawyers and filter that information down to whoever keeps putting out these dopey comments

Which bit are you highlighting as particularly 'dopey'?

[Apate]

Which bit are you highlighting as particularly 'dopey'?

Me thinks SpindleBob is the one being "dopey"? I'll add a few more simple words to my earlier comments. The ex-Bristow pilots and the existing Babcock pilots will now be treated as a single group and the company will now have to devise a selection process. This will involve the development of a "matrix", choosing evaluation items that will effectively give each pilot a score. These items have guidelines they have to fall within:

https://www.acas.org.uk/manage-staff-redundancies/select-employees-for-redundancy

However some will be difficult to establish for an employee that has effectively no internal records on such things as performance and attendance. Could this then disadvantage the ex-BHL pilots in some way??

[Apate]

Wasn't it this same legal arrogance that got Babcock management into this mess in the first place. Refusing to listen to their lawyers and deciding that they knew better?

That's a new and interesting spin on things. How do you know what advice was given to Babcock management by their lawyers?

[WBOne]

Ah. I wonder how the matrix will be written this time...

Bullseye, spot on!

Google this: 'Case Nos. 2401203/2016 (tel:2401203/2016) McFarlane Cole' and see how they go about the matrix process.........

[SpindleBob]

Which bit are you highlighting as particularly 'dopey'?

I am not actually referring to your post. More to the continual messaging being sent out by Babcock to its own staff, Pilots and Engineers. The statements and continual job threats have generally been inaccurate and poor.

"Could this then disadvantage the ex-BHL pilots in some way??" - No, it couldn't!! You would have to establish a fundamentally level playing field for equally qualified and experienced staff.

"How do you know what advice was given to Babcock management by their lawyers?" - I don't. But I did take the opportunity to read up on the law, and that seemed fairly clear, so it seemed likely that lawyers had also read the same pamphlet. Considering all the 'fact' being posted here on every subject from Covid to TUPE, I assumed that everyone was similarly qualified?


Anyway, I'm not trying to antagonise. But the general messaging seems designed to be negative and reduce morale across all working groups and the industry. Lets not keep adding fuel to these dying embers with clearly unsupported opinion that TUPE doesn't apply, and even if it does, one group or another will be disadvantaged.

[vee_why]

Bullseye, spot on!

Google this: 'Case Nos. 2401203/2016 (tel:2401203/2016) McFarlane Cole' and see how they go about the matrix process.........

The one where it is concluded Looking at all of the matters put forward on behalf of the claimants in their counsel’s closing submissions I find that overall the process followed was a fair one and so the claims of the claimants are dismissed.

[WBOne]

Yes, and also this Ah. I wonder how the matrix will be written this time... to which should perhaps be added 'and when'.

I make no aspersions of course, its all speculation and rumor......I like the job I do.