New Farnborough CAS

[chevvron]

Nobody on this forum seems to have noticed but Farnborough's new controlled airspace came into effect yesterday 27 Feb affecting operations at Farnborough, Blackbushe, Fairoaks and Odiham (Lasham is outside the airspace).
A new CAA published half mil is available but the new quarter mil will not be out until May apparently.

[Jim59]

Yes I did notice.

The CAA are clearly concerned that it is far too complicated because they have already published two guides ( https://airspacesafety.com/updates/ ) to remind GA pilots of the rules under the heading, "Preventing airspace infringements in the vicinity of Farnborough Controlled Airspace. This infringement update is intended to follow the format of the narratives focusing on identified infringement ‘hot-spots’ in the UK. It has been written to provide pilots with a comprehensive guide to the Class D and Class E Farnborough controlled airspace which become effective on 27 February 2020 to assist in the prevention of airspace infringements."

[Stampe]

I shall be avoiding the areas concerned for the next few months,seems the prudent thing to do whilst the dust settles.Locally based aircraft do not have that luxury.Over the years I have been a regular visitor to White Waltham and occasionally Blackbushe always using Farnborough west’s services.I do not see how it will all work on very busy days when initial calls cannot be established.I shall watch from afar. Stampe.

[22/04]

I have been a regular visitor to White Waltham and occasionally Blackbushe always using Farnborough west’s services.I do not see how it will all work on very busy days when initial calls cannot be established. I shall watch from afar. Stampe.

Absolutely- try getting a call into Farnborough on a Summer Sunday afternoon. Is there any beefing up of ATCOs and frequencies at Farnborough to enable separation of zone transit and LARS traffic. Otherwise people may not get the transits they need to get to destination on summer Sundays

[chevvron]

Absolutely- try getting a call into Farnborough on a Summer Sunday afternoon. Is there any beefing up of ATCOs and frequencies at Farnborough to enable separation of zone transit and LARS traffic. Otherwise people may not get the transits they need to get to destination on summer Sundays
Zone transits will be on a 'new' frequency 133.440 thus relieving pressure on LARS West.
Well that's the theory any way; just wait until they're short of staff and have to 'bandbox' with LARS West or Approach.

[ShyTorque]

Nobody on this forum seems to have noticed but Farnborough's new controlled airspace came into effect yesterday 27 Feb affecting operations at Farnborough, Blackbushe, Fairoaks and Odiham (Lasham is outside the airspace).
A new CAA published half mil is available but the new quarter mil will not be out until May apparently.

I certainly noticed (it directly affects our operations and I was in the area yesterday but chose to avoid the airspace). But surely re-posting everything on here isn't most working folks' #1 priority.

[ETOPS]

I regularly transit the Farnborough overhead - will continue to do so this year and don't expect any trouble. If asked to hold awaiting clearance then a few orbits will hardly affect my flight. If told to remain clear and reroute - guess what - that's exactly what I will do!

Lifes too short to worry about this stuff. Anyway - at 150kts everywhere is "just around the corner" :ok:

[bad bear]

re route is precisely the problem that many fear as it will funnel lots of traffic through the Lasham overhead where there is winch wire up to 3000' AGL, up to 200 movements per hour ( yes that is 200 hundred in just one hour) and pretty intense aerobatics at times, along with over 50 gliders local soaring while waiting to set off on cross country. As a glider pilot I will be asking to be inside the airspace where there are almost no aeroplanes as its the safest place to be round there !


bb

[ETOPS]

Yes I know about Lasham. If transits prove to be a problem then I would plan a more westerly route even west of Popham.

[wrecker]

I
If you are refused a transit through Farnborough Class D ( or any other Class D) report it via the following link
https://apply.caa.co.uk/CAAPortal/servlet/SmartForm.html?formCode=fcs1521v2
The CAA will be monitoring the new farnborough airspace to see that they fullfill the terms of the ACP

[jmmoric]

I must say, I've never heard anyone complain as much as brits when it comes to controlled airspaces?

[cats_five]

I must say, I've never heard anyone complain as much as brits when it comes to controlled airspaces?

Maybe you should take a look at how little uncontrolled airspace is left in some parts of the country before you knock British people.

[Jetscream 32]

Must admit having just seen the B727 on finals into Lasham an hour ago - when they are on 09 - there is a sky full of gliders and something like a 738/727/A320 is inbound to Lasham on a sunny summer weekend - a few GA pilots might have a bit of fright as the descent from Southampton towards Popham and then the turn into Lasham will be a hive of activity..... Take care!

[Jan Olieslagers]

I must say, I've never heard anyone complain as much as brits when it comes to controlled airspaces?

As I read it, the complaints are not so much about the airspace as such, but rather about the changes to it, and their rapidity, and the perceived lack of consideration and thought and afterthought. My own EBBU biotope is rather complex, too, but has been quite constant for the 15 years or so that I've been aloft - quite doable, but if they start making it a lottery then I'll be screaming, too!

[Jan Olieslagers]

the decent from Southampton towards Popham and then the turn into Lasham

Better the decent than the indecent. Sorry, I know it sounds like smartassery but I just couldn't resist for this once...

[planesandthings]

Must admit having just seen the B727 on finals into Lasham an hour ago - when they are on 09 - there is a sky full of gliders and something like a 738/727/A320 is inbound to Lasham on a sunny summer weekend - a few GA pilots might have a bit of fright as the descent from Southampton towards Popham and then the turn into Lasham will be a hive of activity..... Take care!

You saw a non-standard routing for Lasham as the B727 was operating VFR completely off airways which is very unusual. Most arrivals into Lasham will be positioned through Farnborough CAS on a STAR and then onto a visual right hand circuit on the odd occasion 09 is in use. Still a busy area but there is some predictability.

Avoid the immediate Lasham overhead at all costs however....

[Buster the Bear]

Must admit having just seen the B727 on finals into Lasham an hour ago - when they are on 09 - there is a sky full of gliders and something like a 738/727/A320 is inbound to Lasham on a sunny summer weekend - a few GA pilots might have a bit of fright as the descent from Southampton towards Popham and then the turn into Lasham will be a hive of activity..... Take care!

Lasham has had airliners land and depart perfectly safely since the mid 1950s and amazingly, even on busy summer weekends!

Our friendly glider pilots are aware of every movement and kindly remain away from the final approach and missed approach areas.

Southampton toward Popham and then onto 09 final, would be extremely rare. This 727 came virtually direct and via Boscombe LARS from EGGD.

During 2019, 2Excel had 210 commercial movements and none had TCAS RAs or AIRPROX with GA in Class G.

Having provided LARS from a London airport for a number of years, Class G is very much 'keep em' peeled'. Expect the unexpected. That 727 has a perfect right to be in it, as do flexwings or exec jets, GA balloons..........

[Talkdownman]

That 727 has a perfect right to be in it, as do flexwings or exec jets, GA balloons..........

Hear hear!

That particular flight had departed IFR on an IFR FPL. I find it hard to believe that the crew cancelled IFR. It is extremely unusual to encounter an airliner flying in accordance with the VFR because of flight-deck 'see and avoid' limitations. (The last airliner I encountered flying in accordance with VFR was a Boeing 757 on a maintenance positioning flight during the 2010 Eyjafjallajökull eruption, if only because IFR flight was not permitted at the time)

I am seriously beginning to wonder if some perceive off-airways flights to be 'VFR'. I note that one particular operator files VFR for the Class G portion before joining 'airways', yet departs into solid IMC. We should all know that operating in UK Class G does not mean the operation has to be termed as 'VFR'.

Must admit having just seen the B727 on finals into Lasham an hour ago - when they are on 09
Oh, and, according to FR24, the 727 which arrived at 1632 on 3rd March landed on Runway 27...

[ShyTorque]

TDM, Is there an IFR let down into Lasham?

[Talkdownman]

None currently published. IFR flights are limited to visual approaches (where a visual approach is [for those who might not know] an approach by an IFR flight executed with visual reference to terrain)

[ShyTorque]

None currently published. IFR flights are limited to visual approaches (where a visual approach is [for those who might not know] an approach by an IFR flight executed with visual reference to terrain)

In practical terms though, flown under IFR or not, at a place like Lasham there can be no formal ATC separation from other traffic because it's not in CAS (although in a MATZ) and there is no published IFR approach. So any approach could only be flown on a "see and be seen" basis, i.e. same as under VFR.

Or are there specific local procedures in place at Lasham? Although I was based literally "next door" for three tours I never saw any.

[Talkdownman]

any approach could only be flown on a "see and be seen" basis, i.e. same as under VFR.

Or are there specific local procedures in place at Lasham?
Well, an IFR Visual Approach is not a VFR approach, the difference being that a 'visual approach' under IFR is not 'see and be seen', therefore not the same as when under VFR. A Visual Approach under IFR does not require VFR minima, and is flown solely with visual reference to terrain for navigation purposes only, whether out of choice or in the absence of an IAP. Traffic detection and avoidance on an IFR Visual Approach is a different matter. In other words its purpose is to locate a landing area visually, and not necessarily other traffic.

There are no specific procedures at Lasham. IFR Visual approaches are executed in the same manner as when approaching any other aerodromes without IAPs outside CAS under IFR.

[ShyTorque]

Well, an IFR Visual Approach is not a VFR approach, the difference being that a 'visual approach' under IFR is not 'see and be seen', therefore not the same as when under VFR. A Visual Approach under IFR does not require VFR minima, and is flown solely with visual reference to terrain for navigation purposes only, whether out of choice or in the absence of an IAP. Traffic detection and avoidance on an IFR Visual Approach is a different matter. In other words its purpose is to locate a landing area visually, and not necessarily other traffic.

There are no specific procedures at Lasham. IFR Visual approaches are executed in the same manner as when approaching any other aerodromes without IAPs outside CAS under IFR.

I’m often required to fly IFR in Class G and land without the benefit of IAPs. The relevant point is, the pilot is still responsible for complying with rules of the air, specifically wrt the right of way rules. I’m genuinely intrigued how an airliner flying under IFR can safely slot into a potentially very busy glider airfield such as Lasham.

[Talkdownman]

I’m genuinely intrigued how an airliner flying under IFR can safely slot into a potentially very busy glider airfield such as Lasham.
As 'Buster the Bear' and 'planesandthings' will corroborate, it's a finely-tuned 'Black Art' administered by some aged mystics. It's a sort of 'Reverse Moses and the Red Sea'. How long have you got.... ;-)

Then bung in a primary radar (when it's working...) which is almost as old as the A/G operators themselves, and one has a very challenging situation for SARG ATS to regulate. But the system works, and the MRO and the gliding club co-exist harmoniously...most of the time... :O

[ShyTorque]

If only I understood what the last two abbreviations mean......

[Talkdownman]

If only I understood what the last two abbreviations mean......
Safety & Airspace Regulation Group - Air Traffic Service. Maintenance and Repair Organisation.
Please excuse me, but I haven't made them up, they are UK aviation industry abbreviations.

[Jan Olieslagers]

Excuse me, but I do not excuse you :) Even if you did not invent all that gibberish, still nobody forced you to use them; neither did anyone forbid you to explain them, perhaps in a footnote. And you might be aware that not all readership here is or flies in the UK.

[ShyTorque]

TDM, Thank you. I didn't accuse you of making them up but I hadn't come across them before.

[TheOddOne]

There's an excellent resource on the Blackbushe website which is particularly relevant to their visitors but also gives an insight in to how the airspace is coordinated. Well worth a read before venturing to that part of the World.

2 weeks ago. I flew from the South-west to Biggin Hill, routing South of Lasham, via the Alton and Frensham VRPs, getting a service from Farnborough West. I see that my route and chosen level would still be valid today, so not much change for East-West routing. I can see that some N/S and variant routes could be a bit problematic. The Blackbushe site says Farnborough have 6-7 movements an hour, so there should be no delay in getting a crossing of the Class D. The major issue, from what I can see, is gliding from Lasham and people wanting to bimble about without an A-B plan.

TOO

[planesandthings]

I’m often required to fly IFR in Class G and land without the benefit of IAPs. The relevant point is, the pilot is still responsible for complying with rules of the air, specifically wrt the right of way rules. I’m genuinely intrigued how an airliner flying under IFR can safely slot into a potentially very busy glider airfield such as Lasham.

Decades of co-existance and training from day one for anyone operating at Lasham on integration between IFR Jets and Gliding Operations. Glider pilots never expect or are taught to exercise rights of way on commercial airliners as it's pretty useless to use it as a defence if it goes horribly wrong! I'm well aware the Lasham team on both the airliner and glider side have years of experience and coordination that keeps the operation safe and to there credit it works superbly. Innsbruck is very similar. Have a look at the Lasham Gliding website if you are interested in some of the procedures.

[planesandthings]

6-7 movements an hour, so there should be no delay in getting a crossing of the Class D. The major issue, from what I can see, is gliding from Lasham and people wanting to bimble about without an A-B plan.

TOO

This is a Farnborough flow restriction currently during implementation phase of the airspace. Farnborough will get busier. Gliding from Lasham remains safe and a lot of work has gone into ensure that. However it is everyone's responsibility regardless of ATZ or not to avoid the overhead of airfields especially below 2000ft. Lasham launches cables up to a max alt of 3600ft AMSL every single day sometimes over 100-150 times. How that doesn't qualify for a danger area who knows. But it certainly isn't the place to be on a Sunny Saturday!

[wrecker]

I agree on a good gliding day, particularly during a competition period it is not uncommon to launch 150 gliders in the space of 90 minutes behind 9 or 10 tugs. and a lot of the gliders will sit in the overhead thermaling away.