A320 mess Sydney

[wheels_down]

Interesting. Does the Airbus give you a alert should one keep climbing with Gear Down?

Well, if it was not for the associated buffeting, I wonder how long they would go on for, and at what height/speed serious damage starts to occur.

I don't think that's the big issue here. Consequences of playing with thrust at low level, 40kt excessive rotation, below minimum pitch angle could get a little hairy...

What happenedOn 29 September 2018, a Jetstar Airways Airbus A320 aircraft, registered VH-VFK, was operating a scheduled passenger flight from Sydney, New South Wales to Melbourne, Victoria. While preparing for the flight and having difficulties with the electronic system used for calculating take-off performance figures, the flight crew reverted to the back-up procedure of manual calculations.

Shortly after take-off, the maximum flap extended speed was exceeded. As the aircraft climbed through 2,800 ft, the flight crew retracted the landing gear after realising it was still extended, resulting in a landing gear retraction overspeed.FindingsThese findings should not be read as apportioning blame or liability to any particular organisation or individual.

The flight crew did not follow standard operating procedures to verify and update Flysmart database during sign on for the day.
When using manual calculations to obtain performance speeds, the flight crew made an error which was not detected by independent validation. This resulted in a calculated rotation speed based on an aircraft weight significantly heavier than the actual take-off weight.
The rotation rate commanded by the pilot flying was too low to prevent a flap overspeed, given the incorrect performance speeds and use of maximum take-off thrust.
In an attempt to manage the airspeed, the pilot flying reduced the thrust from the take-off setting, rather than increasing the pitch, but the aircraft was below the safe altitude above the ground to do so.
The landing gear was not retracted at the normal phase of the take-off. When the flight crew identified that the landing gear was still extended, they retracted it immediately, even though the aircraft was above the maximum landing gear retraction speed.




https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2018/aair/ao-2018-067/

[TimmyTee]

Does it seem that Jetstar aircraft are somewhat over-represented in these types of stuff ups in this country?

[Cessna Jockey]

There is no alert that I know of (yet to test that theory myself).

I don’t know the crew involved nor their rosters but worth mentioning from report:

The flight crew had recently completed their third sector for that day in a different aircraft and were required to change aircraft for this flight, which had a scheduled departure time of 2200 Eastern Standard Time (

Last minute aircraft swap, final fourth sector of probably a long day, pushing Sydney curfew for departure, EFB stuffing up so manual calcs, and no doubt they’re probably on max hours for the month during September peak period going from early morning sign ons to late nights...

I could be wrong, but it’s probably safe to say it the crew were probably not at their best by that stage of their duty...

[Green.Dot]

Does it seem that Jetstar aircraft are somewhat over-represented in these types of stuff ups in this country?

Most overworked and tired pilots in the country perhaps? Until you have done 24 sectors in 6 days it’s hard to imagine how stuff like this happens. Then it makes sense

[Brakerider]

Does it seem that Jetstar aircraft are somewhat over-represented in these types of stuff ups in this country?

Couldn’t possibly be that they operate the most of the type in Aus, by far?

[wheels_down]

I could be wrong, but it’s probably safe to say it the crew were probably not at their best by that stage of their duty...

The ATSB normally include Fatigue in many investigations, and if crew did/did not feel any form of fatigue on the said shift. They normally also state the duty crew were flying, previous days etc..We don't know this but your point is very valid, the fact that Positive Climb/Gear Up was missed, but they thought they said it, reeks of Fatigue.

However there is nothing in there nor anything surrounding crew hours or total time.

If they did accept a fatigue issue in some form, I would expect the ATSB to include that in the report, not private discussions between itself and the operator on if they want this info put into a public final report. That sort of rubbish and cover up I would expect in some neighbouring countries. If they didn't acknowledge any form of Fatigue and were well rested, then they need to state this also. For the benefit of all.

[maggot]

Nah there’s a FRMS somewhere in the manuals therefore fatigue was not a factor

/sarc in case it wasn’t clear

[Cessna Jockey]

The ATSB normally include Fatigue in many investigations, and if crew did/did not feel any form of fatigue on the said shift. They normally also state the duty crew were flying, previous days etc..We don't know this but your point is very valid, the fact that Positive Climb/Gear Up was missed, but they thought they said it, reeks of Fatigue.

However there is nothing in there nor anything surrounding crew hours or total time.

If they did accept a fatigue issue in some form, I would expect the ATSB to include that in the report, not private discussions between itself and the operator on if they want this info put into a public final report. That sort of rubbish and cover up I would expect in some neighbouring countries. If they didn't acknowledge any form of Fatigue and were well rested, then they need to state this also. For the benefit of all.


I see your point but whilst we pretend we operate within a “just culture”, the reality is the moment you admit you were fatigued, it comes back to bite you with “then why did you continue to operate”. The responsibility rests with the crew member to self assess, and if you chose to continue then the outcome will likely be just as harsh. Sometimes it’s easier to just fall on your sword and just admit you stuffed up.

The ADSB would have looked at their rosters and flight/duty hours from a legal standpoint, and no doubt they would be legal. But as we know, just because it’s legal doesn’t make it right. I’m currently on my fifth early in a row and I’m absolutely shagged - 3am call outs, as well as 4am and 5am alarms all week for 4 sector days. I’ll have just one day off before switching to lates.

How long have CASA delayed the new CAO48 for the benefit of the airlines? It’s astounding

[Stickshift3000]

If they did accept a fatigue issue in some form, I would expect the ATSB to include that in the report, not private discussions between itself and the operator on if they want this info put into a public final report. That sort of rubbish and cover up I would expect in some neighbouring countries. If they didn't acknowledge any form of Fatigue and were well rested, then they need to state this also. For the benefit of all.

This. Why is everyone so damn sensitive to whom they MAY offend these days?

The best colleagues I’ve worked with and the best bosses I’ve worked for were those that told it as it was, regardless of consequence. I hold them in high regard.

[Sunfish]

Because offending someone is a career limiting move. Being “encouraged” to self report and actually self reporting are two different things. Management publicly encourages reporting and openness, but privately penalizes those that do.

How do I know this??

[Vref+5]

Why would the Qantas group want to confirm any kind of issues surrounding fatigue when they want to get Sunrise up and running? The ATSB have consulted with them before this report was released and QF have shut fatigue issues straight down

[TimmyTee]

I’m sure they have their tails somewhat between their legs (probably not now as it’s 1.5 years since incident, and fair enough too), but if both pilots believed they had, and reported fatigue, I’d fully support them if they came out publically questioned why this was completely ignored in the report.

The report paints an image of guys just lazily rocking up, time to burn, ready to go.
I highly doubt this is the fact, rather no doubt it was less than a min “planned” turn, with aircraft and cc swap, probably no airside access due expired cards, delayed full flight.
No mention of sign on time, sector lengths, sit around time between flights, access to sustenance, consecutive days or how the crew reported as feeling fatigue wise (which I’m sure was one of the first questions they were asked to ensure the FRMS system works/company arse-covers)
Ridiculous.

[The Baron]

Anyone that has been in this unfortunate position well knows the amount of insidious commercial pressure to continue when fatigued. I also wouldn't be surprised if the crew involved were based in Melbourne. Everybody should have realized by now that the standard airlines response to the "We were fatigued" statement will be "Why were you operating then?"
They treat you like you just signed on from a relaxing overnight in a fully sound proofed 5 star resort/hotel, not where crew get to stay.

[Sunfish]

It appears from reading between the lines in various accident reports and Pprune comments that the ATSB is no longer trusted as an unbiased investigator.

[Buttscratcher]

Sorry to move away from the 'Fatigue' thing, but why doesn't J* allow flex when using that table?
TOGA thrust on a low-ish TOW certainly would be one of the largest contributors to this event.
Seems odd to me that you can't flex.
Perhaps ATSB could have also recommended a 'normal' thrust flex procedure from these tables.

[Cessna Jockey]

Sorry to move away from the 'Fatigue' thing, but why doesn't J* allow flex when using that table?
TOGA thrust on a low-ish TOW certainly would be one of the largest contributors to this event.
Seems odd to me that you can't flex.
Perhaps ATSB could have also recommended a 'normal' thrust flex procedure from these tables.

Its written into OM6 performance manual. Any other method than Flysmart, reduced thrust not permitted

[Ollie Onion]

They do not allow it, in fact the charts are only for Config 3, TOGA and packs off, so all directly contributed to making the miscalculation worse.

[Blueskymine]

You can see exactly how it happened.

She was very spritely during rotation and the speed was trending up to the bricks.

So to stop that, the PF brought the thrust back. The other guy thought WTF and during the chaos, the standard patter was missed. Then they just made some bad decisions (well reactions) during the subsequent events.

EBT is supposed to give good training for this type of event.

I speak from personal experience, but when things are happening, it can take great discipline to prioritise and aviate.

For instance who here has had a slat/flat jam during a go around, received the ecam when you called go round flaps and omitted positive rate, because you were distracted by the ecam? Who then didn’t call gear up because the other guy didn’t call positive rate? I’ll put my hand up.

I trust the crew learnt some great lessons after this event and hope that it’s shared amongst your pilot group.

[Lookleft]

I trust the crew learnt some great lessons after this event and hope that it’s shared amongst your pilot group.

The PIC retired.

This line is really where the problem started : The operator’s procedures required the flight crew to verify the Flysmart software database version on their electronic flight bag (EFB), and update it if required prior to their first flight of the day. On this occasion, neither flight crew member updated their Flysmart software prior to their first flight of the day despite an updated version being available. I

Tony Kerns has plenty of good advice regarding cockpit discipline. It starts before you even get to the gate. The report also states that despite the incorrect database Flysmart would have come up with valid data so it would seem that the crew just assumed that the EFB was incorrect. Not really covered in the report was the crew were pushing curfew so they were rushing and the clear lesson is that is when mistakes are made.

Finally those speeds just should not have made sense for a 68t takeoff. Similar to the SQ 747 in AKL that tried to rotate at 127kts with a 397t takeoff. To go back to Tony Kerns, know your aircraft.

[wheels_down]

Finally those speeds just should not have made sense for a 68t takeoff. Similar to the SQ 747 in AKL that tried to rotate at 127kts with a 397t takeoff. To go back to Tony Kerns, know your aircraft.
What about A321?

The 10pm Sydney to Melbourne is a A321. However it was downgraded obviously for some reason prior which explains the aircraft switch.

[Buttscratcher]

Its written into OM6 performance manual. Any other method than Flysmart, reduced thrust not permitted

Sure, sure, take that to the grave, but my question was WHY?
Doesn't anyone want to question the policymakers here?

[Lookleft]

What about A321?

A heavy 321 is 85t + but the same principle applies, know your aircraft and always GEC any figures a table or computer presents to you. The same PIC a few years ago was presented with a flight plan that had not included the payload so the fuel figure for a transcontinental flight was a a bit light. That was in the days of the manual take-off charts. The final load showed an increase in 16t to the TOW so they redid the V speeds. When they got airborne the aeroplane told them they had insufficient fuel to get to their destination. Realising why, the PIC did a tech stop to load more fuel on. A GEC would have saved a tea and bikkie session. In the Sydney event it would have saved his job.

Buttscratcher when the OM became the ultimate backup they thought they had simplified it enough that lack of use would avoid the incorrect figures being used. It was assumed that any crew would use the actual weight for the V speeds. The only reason to go up to the actual temp column was to check the RTOW figure for the W&B.

[Gear in transit]

Sure, sure, take that to the grave, but my question was WHY?
Doesn't anyone want to question the policymakers here?

It was done in an attempt to minimize the variables with the t/o calcs. A significant amount of the newer pilot group have never used rtow charts at JQ other than the training module when they started. (Currently being revisited!)
So to minimise dramas (or so they thought) all the charts were done as config3, full length, toga with the a/c off. To be fair, I’ve had to use them once since they went to the EFB so it’s very unusual to use them at all.

To answer the original question, no the 320 has no warning for the gear speed. For extra fun, there is a 30kt difference from max extension speed 250kt to retraction speed 220kt. A few crew have been caught out with this chestnut before, it isn’t a first.

[krismiler]

Interesting. Does the Airbus give you a alert should one keep climbing with Gear Down?

Well, if it was not for the associated buffeting, I wonder how long they would go on for, and at what height/speed serious damage starts to occur.


No alert given and you can fly the whole way with the gear extended if you like.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/news/air-india-forgotten-landing-gear-low-fuel/

[Harbour Dweller]

A significant amount of the newer pilot group have never used rtow charts at JQ other than the training module when they started. (Currently being revisited!)

JQ are not alone with this. As modern flight decks across the world move more towards EFBs, the art of interpreting chart data is becoming lost.

Global eduction systems are also moving towards electronic learning. The generations ahead may never have the opportunity to interpret paper charts and graphs as previous generations before.

As for this flight, final leg of a long duty, last minute aircraft swap, pushing curfew. All the risk factors are lining up. What a time to need to dust of the paper charts that you’ve probably not looked at since your last line check.

The old saying (modified for polite language) - put bad stuff in, get bad stuff out.

An Airmanship lesson from this would suggest pulling the paper charts out every now and again. Lots of time in cruise to discuss with younger crews.

GEC - wise words indeed!

[73qanda]

It was assumed that any crew would use the actual weight for the V speeds. The only reason to go up to the actual temp column was to check the RTOW figure for the W&B.
Out of interest as I have no idea; Do Jetstar pilots have to demonstrate competence in using the paper charts at set intervals? Just wondering about the training angle.
Its a very good point about potentially rushing if curfew was near.

[Buttscratcher]

It's nice that y'all are catering for a lack of proficiency applying the RTOW charts from the OM....but, wouldn't you think TOGA ,PACKs off, F3 may be a little 'balls-out'?
Dunno much about that 'Bus, but looking at the chart on the above website, that thing has an insane amount of FLEX reserve. With TOGA it looks like it would be a handful if it was light. Go-arounds must be loads of fun!
I respect your opinions, and I do think Blueskymining nailed it. The guys may have messed up, and lined themselves up for an exciting ride, but don't you think the TOGA policy was a contributing factor, and should be revisited?
Is it an Airbus policy?....or something made up?
The 330 can FLEX from the charts just fine, different company tho.

[das Uber Soldat]

Out of interest as I have no idea; Do Jetstar pilots have to demonstrate competence in using the paper charts at set intervals? Just wondering about the training angle.
Its a very good point about potentially rushing if curfew was near.
Nope. I've never used them operationally, or been asked to demonstrate competency.

[390cruise]

My experience of flight in A320 with gear down later than the normal retraction is of a very noisy flight deck. It would be impossible not to notice. I ferried one ‘gear down’ for over one hour and was pleased to eventually land.

Secondly attempting to retract close to retraction speed limit is unlikely to be successful, or a least a slow procedure.

[Blueskymine]

Nope. I've never used them operationally, or been asked to demonstrate competency.

Most of us pre flight smart used them exclusively.

Remembering you independently extracted the data, couldn’t mark the book with the told card and the old told card had the speeds. (Are you still using them?).

This of course was in the day when you had the PDA and printer and a good FO knew the exact position to get the best infrared connection. Yes OM6 used to be a lot bigger. Plus there were two volumes and a full flight library on every flight deck.

Which also meant there was a good opportunity to have copies of the manuals. Even if they were a cycle out of date.

[Uplinker]

An Airmanship lesson from this would suggest pulling the paper charts out every now and again...…….. …......if there are any on the flight deck ?


An even better airmanship lesson these days, (i.e. in the 21st century), would be to check and if necessary, update your company EFB before going to work !!

I am sure most of us switch the thing on while eating our cornflakes - if only to have a look at the weather for the day ahead ?

And/or arrive 20 mins early for report time so that updates and other admin buggeration factors can be allowed for and not delay the flight :ok:

Not that long ago, a supposedly experienced Captain, who arrived late, kept us waiting in the crew room well after we should have been on the flight deck, while his woefully out of date EFB slowly updated on the crew room Wi-Fi.:D

I was not impressed. :rolleyes:

[Green.Dot]

You can see exactly how it happened.

For instance who here has had a slat/flat jam during a go around, received the ecam when you called go round flaps and omitted positive rate, because you were distracted by the ecam? Who then didn’t call gear up because the other guy didn’t call positive rate? I’ll put my hand up.

I trust the crew learnt some great lessons after this event and hope that it’s shared amongst your pilot group.

You my friend are the exact pilot I want to fly with on the flightdeck. Someone who can see how it’s possible to make errors, admit when they make a mistake, say “thanks mate” when the other guy/girl picks you up on something we miss. It’s a team effort out there, and even more important when doing so many sectors day after day when management are attempting to destroy pilot morale. Bravo, we need more people like you in the industry. 👏

[Ollie Onion]

Arrive 20 minutes early............. whatever. My company gives me 60 minutes, I will arrive there by sign on time and my IPad gets taken out of my flight bag only at work. If it needs updating then it is done there and then, if my FO is not impressed then he or she can complain to someone else, why would I donate my own time to the company?

[das Uber Soldat]

Arrive 20 minutes early............. whatever. My company gives me 60 minutes, I will arrive there by sign on time and my IPad gets taken out of my flight bag only at work. If it needs updating then it is done there and then, if my FO is not impressed then he or she can complain to someone else, why would I donate my own time to the company?
This, a thousand times. If they want me there 80 minutes before flight, they can pay me for it.

[Capt Fathom]

Do you get paid for the time you spend studying at home for SIMs and Route Checks? Or do you commence your study at sign on?

[Blueskymine]

Arrive 20 minutes early............. whatever. My company gives me 60 minutes, I will arrive there by sign on time and my IPad gets taken out of my flight bag only at work. If it needs updating then it is done there and then, if my FO is not impressed then he or she can complain to someone else, why would I donate my own time to the company?


This is the attitude that stinks. It’s also quite prevalent.

As professionals we are paid to fly from A to B safely. A lot of that safety factor comes from updating and maintaining knowledge at home in your own time.

I always come to work having updated my EFB, with the draft flight plans ready to go. I’ve checked all the notams and weather for my route/s. I’ve checked the status of the aeroplane and considered any issues that may effect me.

Essentially by the time I’ve got a coffee and got to the meeting spot, I’m waiting for the final flight plan and considering how much extra fuel is going on.

We have enough stress in our day to day operations. We didn’t need to cram it all into the tiny window at sign on which doesn’t adequately prepare us for the day ahead.

It also reflects on your professionalism to the other guy who’s waiting for you while you drag your heels. He/she know that it’s going to be a reactive day verse a proactive day.

[BuzzBox]

An even better airmanship lesson these days, (i.e. in the 21st century), would be to check and if necessary, update your company EFB before going to work !!

The airline where I work requires pilots to independently cross-check the other pilot's EFB update status at dispatch (or on the aircraft if necessary).

[Ollie Onion]

This is where you are wrong though, it add’s absolutely no stress to my day. If I go 20 minutes late due to my pre-flight briefing taking longer then so be it.

Captain Fathom, As to the question about the simulator or line check I find that I get more than enough reading done on long flights to mean that I don’t have to do anything outside of that. How much study do you have to do to pass a routine check? I have never studied at home and I have never had an issue passing a sim or route check.

Where did I say I drag my heels? I would say that it is your attitude that has lead to a degradation in everyone’s terms and conditions, an apparent willingness to ‘be flexible’ and ‘get the job done’ under the pretence of professionalism. I have never departed with out of date material either as I have a routine to check it at every sign on, perhaps if this crew had a sign on routine to update everything then this would’ve have happened.

Personally it annoys me when people turn up and say ‘I have looked at everything’, the whole point of the briefing is to discuss everything as a crew, not to have it all done prior to sign on knowing that you don’t actually have enough time. Doin* that means you may miss that something is out of date and comes across as dismissive of the other crew member if you have already made all the fuel decisions.

This was raised with management as the pilot group wanted some sort of compensation for the expectation of doing this stuff at home, we were told that the company provided wifi in the Crewroom and we could do it there if needed. That is fine by me and that is where I will do it, what other contractual clauses are you happy to be flexible with to help out the company who by their very actions have shown their distain for your role?

[Blueskymine]

I don’t know how you can argue that one Ollie.

More time to peruse the proposed flight as per the CARs is always better than less.

The preflight briefing is to discuss what information will affect your flight and to discuss fuel as a crew. It’s not really to digest the proposed flight. It just means you have less time to discuss it if you’re still digesting it.

We are paid to run a schedule. From A-B on time. That is the whole basis of RPT. That’s what an airline does. For our valued business clients in the premium side of the business it’s critical (obviously I don’t fly the Jetstar line).

I personally do a lot of study in my home time. There’s 3 stages you go through as an aviator.

learning to fly
consolidating existing knowledge
Actively seeking new knowledge

Be the third one. Especially if you’re a captain.

[Lookleft]

We are paid to run a schedule. From A-B on time. That is the whole basis of RPT.

BS, BSM, we are paid to get the crew, passengers,mail and cargo from A-B safely. Our aircraft intact and our crew and passengers uninjured or worse. Nowhere in the CARS, CAO's AIP or any other legal document that governs our conduct and decision making is schedule a consideration. It is only important to commercial and mangement numpties.

[das Uber Soldat]

This is the attitude that stinks. It’s also quite prevalent.

As professionals we are paid to fly from A to B safely. A lot of that safety factor comes from updating and maintaining knowledge at home in your own time.

I always come to work having updated my EFB, with the draft flight plans ready to go. I’ve checked all the notams and weather for my route/s. I’ve checked the status of the aeroplane and considered any issues that may effect me.

Essentially by the time I’ve got a coffee and got to the meeting spot, I’m waiting for the final flight plan and considering how much extra fuel is going on.

We have enough stress in our day to day operations. We didn’t need to cram it all into the tiny window at sign on which doesn’t adequately prepare us for the day ahead.

It also reflects on your professionalism to the other guy who’s waiting for you while you drag your heels. He/she know that it’s going to be a reactive day verse a proactive day.
You sound like you'd be fun at parties. Ever heard of ways to skin a cat? That you need to invest significant time outside work in work related matters does not mean others are obligated to do the same just to earn the title of 'professional'.


I personally find more than enough time in the cruise to maintain my knowledge and have never failed a sim or come close. I never study specifically for sims, and indeed find the logic behind such an activity bizare.

I show up at sign on, and start preparing. As a 'professional', if you believe the company policy and procedures do not allow you sufficient time to safely prepare for flight, then it is on you to report this and have the manuals changed should an investigation reveal that to be the case. It is not the job of a pilot to start inventing their own procedures as a work around should SOP's in their view be deemed inadequate.

[Ollie Onion]

Likewise Blueskymine, I just don't understand your approach. I have been flying for many years for 3 different airlines, in my previous airline I was a Safety Investigator, Trainer and Check Captain for many years and I would like to think well regarded as a very proficient operator. I have been asked to be a trainer in my current airline but have always declined the offer, why, because my previous employer took training seriously. They rostered an extra 60 minutes of sign on for the trainee's first two days of flying and then an extra 15 minutes on top of normal for the remainder of his/her line training. At my current airline they give an extra 15 minutes for the first 5 days and then just normal sign on for the rest but expect the trainee and trainer to come in early. That quite frankly is bullsh*t, so I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole. Maybe where we differ is that outside of my work I don't think about or partake in any aviation related activity, I certainly don't 'actively seek new knowledge', if required I undertake training in new procedures or learn new aircraft types during the allotted time given, if I need more time then as I say this is done either on long flights or on overnights when I am being paid to be there. I have never had a problem with my level of knowledge and have never been reprimanded for departing late on the odd occasion a more complicated situation arises that needs extra briefing time.

If I turn up at the airport 20 minutes early, I too go and have a coffee, I will buy one for any crew I run into and maybe will have it with them too, rest assured though we talk about family, hobbies, life but will certainly not be briefing. If there is no one around I will read the newspaper, I find that to be very relaxing, and have never felt stressed during briefing time due to the schedule clock ticking. May be 3 or 4 flights a year may go late because of my 'UN-proffessional' attitude but that pales in comparison to the amount that go late due to late aircraft, maintenance, missing passengers etc.

[Buttscratcher]

.....so in the 'good ol' days' of paper Jepps, you'd be the guy filling the flight deck with 2 piles of bible-paper?

[73qanda]

We are paid to run a schedule. From A-B on time. That is the whole basis of RPT. That’s what an airline does. For our valued business clients in the premium side of the business it’s critical (obviously I don’t fly the Jetstar line).
Regarding what we’re paid to do......where does safety fit into your description? ( as a fellow pilot I understand that it goes without saying, non-pilots can sometimes fail to understand this ,”they just plug the auto-pilot”)
All these things that are ‘critical’ are actually not, they’re ‘important’.....not critical.

[Ollie Onion]

I have never flown for an airline where I was expected to do my own manual updates, but if I had then I would have been doing them on the flight deck or on an overnight. Last time I did that was as a flying instructor when one of my duties was keeping the schools Aerads up to date. Does that mean that the airline didn't provide you with Charts and Plates, seems a strange thing for a manager to get his professional employee to do, supply their own Jepps? Next you are going to tell me that make you pay for your own medicals and supply your own crew food too.........

[Buttscratcher]

impressive

[StudentInDebt]

Spot on Ollie, for some strange reason I think we’ve followed a very similar path to our current employer.
People who choose to do stuff in their own time are entitled to do so, they are not entitled to question the professionalism of those who don’t, especially when they don’t know them beyond an Internet forum. I always enjoy the phrase “I’ve got the sim coming up, I’d better practice a raw data ILS today for it”, speaks volumes to priorities.

[Blueskymine]

I have never flown for an airline where I was expected to do my own manual updates, but if I had then I would have been doing them on the flight deck or on an overnight. Last time I did that was as a flying instructor when one of my duties was keeping the schools Aerads up to date. Does that mean that the airline didn't provide you with Charts and Plates, seems a strange thing for a manager to get his professional employee to do, supply their own Jepps? Next you are going to tell me that make you pay for your own medicals and supply your own crew food too.........

You mustn’t have been around long. It was only when Jeppview came to iPads circa 2012-13 that it stopped. Prior to that I had my personal subscription plus the company one to update fortnightly.

[Blueskymine]

Regarding what we’re paid to do......where does safety fit into your description? ( as a fellow pilot I understand that it goes without saying, non-pilots can sometimes fail to understand this ,”they just plug the auto-pilot”)
All these things that are ‘critical’ are actually not, they’re ‘important’.....not critical.

Safety is behind everything we do. Hence why it’s critical to arrive at work well briefed and prepared of what’s ahead.

[73qanda]

Safety is behind everything we do. Hence why it’s critical to arrive at work well briefed and prepared of what’s ahead.
Yip.
I was trying to draw attention to your assertion that
For our valued business clients in the premium side of the business it’s critical
I felt like your use of ‘critical’ was too strong in the absence of any mention of safety. The business clients desire to be on time is important, it’s
not critical.We have higher priorities than that ( as I’m sure you are highly aware) and the focus on OTP regularly impacts our highest priority. I think it’s important in our modern aviation environment to challenge the constant rhetoric about how ‘critical’ OTP is if it’s not accompanied by the qualification that safety is more important. So I did :)
We get a lot of messaging around OTP and some folk ( not you) need reminding that the whole shooting match is a delicate balancing act.
Cheers

[Ollie Onion]

I have worked in airlines that had paper charts but they were maintained by flight ops admin and when you reported for work you collected a trip kit for your duty and the FO’s responsibility was to check that you had the relevant charts. At the end of the trip you dropped the trip kit back to the dispatch desk and went home. Of course I am being a bit disingenuous here, I signed up to work in an airline where I pay for medical and being my own food, I am just making the point that slowly but surely our working conditions are being whittled away in return for ‘gains’ in other areas, the Company keeps chipping away and relies on the fact that some will just get on with it and do things in their own time to keep the show on the road. If that is what you personally choose to do then all power to you, but please don’t question someone’s professionalism just because they choose to work within the contractual parameters that the company and relevant unions set.

[burned_out]

Safety is behind everything we do. Hence why it’s critical to arrive at work well briefed and prepared of what’s ahead.

Geez Mr wizard,
Get yourself a mortgage, wife and a couple kids and see how much aero-sexual time you got.

[Buttscratcher]

.....and yet, here you are

[Ollie Onion]

Yes I am, and I really enjoy my job because of the people I work with and where it is based as it lets me live in my home country where my kids have a much better lifestyle than when I was overseas. But my job is just a means to an end and doesn’t warrant any of my free time. As I keep saying if you are such an enthusiast that you want to do your work at home in your own time then please feel free, that is your choice and if it makes you happy then that is great.

[PoppaJo]

I don’t think any amount of unpaid pre flight planning would have eliminated this event.

As many are well aware, it was nothing other than sloppy aviating on both right and left seat.

The fella on the left expects to be carried by his right seater. But what happens when the bod in the right is barely up scratch. This!

There is most certainly a special place these people come from. If I have a dollar for every FO that rants to me about these ex blah blah airline people and there old school old boys ways of operating, I could retire tomorrow.

[das Uber Soldat]

As many are well aware, it was nothing other than sloppy aviating on both right and left seat.

There is most certainly a special place these people come from. If I have a dollar for every FO that rants to me about these ex blah blah airline people and there old school old boys ways of operating, I could retire tomorrow.
Yeh, nobody ever made a mistake in Ansett.
https://cdn.aviation-safety.net/photos/accidents/19941019-0-C-2.jpg

[Sunfish]

The idea that employees should be obligated to do for “free” company related work in their own time has been a pernicious trend in the general economy for some years so I’m not surprised that there might be encouragement for professional aircrew to do the same. Reject it totally. If you don’t, your employers increasing demands will destroy what quality recreation time you still have.

This behaviour - “free” work outside business hours, got so bad in the legal profession that it drove young lawyers to suicide. Even today, my stepsons both have to deal with work related emails and calls on weekends and at night.

The enlightened approach taken by good employers is that work outside scheduled hours, absent a real emergency, is to be frowned upon as a sign of either bad company management, bad planning, incompetence or all three.

[exfocx]

The PIC retired.

This line is really where the problem started :

Tony Kerns has plenty of good advice regarding cockpit discipline. It starts before you even get to the gate. The report also states that despite the incorrect database Flysmart would have come up with valid data so it would seem that the crew just assumed that the EFB was incorrect. Not really covered in the report was the crew were pushing curfew so they were rushing and the clear lesson is that is when mistakes are made.

Finally those speeds just should not have made sense for a 68t takeoff. Similar to the SQ 747 in AKL that tried to rotate at 127kts with a 397t takeoff. To go back to Tony Kerns, know your aircraft.

S/O times are for the best of best days and the companies and CASA know it, for me coming in early is an everyday necessity and not because I give a damn about OTP or anything like that, but unless you're made of high grade carbon steel the crew WILL feel the pressure of meeting dep / COBT times etc, throw in M.E.L. / wx / load issues and you're pushing **** uphill even more so, and that is not conducive to a good outcome. A/C in great shape, Wx nil, load no issue, once one of those becomes an issue you'll likely be having to increase the prep tempo on the flt deck. 99% of the time no problem, but that 1% may bite your arse big time.

The whole system is run like fatigue management, you do something wrong and it's your head. The company will go through the manuals and quote you line and verse where YOU ****ed up and they'll be right, you'll have nothing to fall back on! This sin't from personal experience, but personal observation and observation by mates. The company will protect its AOC, if you are in QF and maybe VA you may have a reasonable level of support via your union, otherwise look out.

[ehwatezedoing]

My experience of flight in A320 with gear down later than the normal retraction is of a very noisy flight deck. It would be impossible not to notice. I ferried one ‘gear down’ for over one hour and was pleased to eventually land.

Oh, It's been done with A320...
Two pilots have been suspended from duty after their aircraft nearly ran out of fuel because they forgot to retract the landing gear after take-off. (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/news/air-india-forgotten-landing-gear-low-fuel/)
(forget about the pilot's gender mentioned in this story)

[Uplinker]

My apologies to the OP for setting this firework off ! (and the thread drift).

Flight preparation in today's competitive airlines is a vexed question. I used to be like those who don't think it should be necessary to do any flight prep at home, or arrive early - feeling that the company should give us sufficient time.

Our company gave us just 15 mins for flight prep, but we had to get on the crew bus 5 mins early to allow for traffic around the airport to the security gate. So we had 10 mins to check-in and read all the NOTAMS, METARS etc, brief each other and the crew, make a fuel decision AND perform EFB updates.

That is not possible, nor sensible. The management were not interested. The union was not interested. Most pilots, sadly, were not interested enough to make a stand about it.

So what does one do? I routinely leave my house 20 mins before I need to. This is to allow for traffic on the M25 and M1 (notoriously busy motorways in the south of the UK). It also allows for the staff carpark being full and having to drive to a more remote carpark and walk back. Then, the crew room computers and printers often need attention before they will work. My extra 20 mins is to allow for all these buggeration factors, and to thoroughly brief myself on the flight.

On the occasional days when there is a bad accident on the roads, I usually still get to work at scheduled report time, and importantly, am not stressed.

That, to me, is being practical, (and professional).

PS regarding paper updates, we routinely used to receive update packages the thickness of a pack of printer paper. It would take several hours to go through all the manuals, remove the old pages and insert the new ones. Not possible or practical to bring 4-5 big A4 binders to work and update them on the flight deck. Thank goodness for Docunet !

[megan]

Yeh, nobody ever made a mistake in AnsettA perfect example where management, with help from the regulator, set up the flight deck crew. From the report,A review of events associated with the introduction of the B747 indicated that organisational factors involving both Ansett and the Civil Aviation Authority led to a situation where there was increased potential for an accident of this nature to occur. These factors included deficiencies in the planning and implementation of the introduction program for the new aircraft, particularly with respect to manuals, procedures and line training. In addition, all regulatory requirements were not observed, nor were they enforced.https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/1994/AAIR/pdf/aair199403038_001.pdf

[UAU242]

Definitely with Ollie, Studentindebt, burnt_out etc on this one.

If there isn't enough time to brief after report, then there isn't enough time. 99% of the time its sufficient.That 1% then the flight departs late, so be it. Safety before OTP. If they want 100% OTP the airline can pay for me to come in earlier.

Bet if if they reduced your report time to near nothing you'd be up in arms! (i find it odd that some are not already about a 15 min briefing time! How is that safe?)

[krismiler]

Most airlines would be using iPads and a few minutes spent reviewing FP/WX/NOTAMs prior to arriving at work definitely reduces the pressure, particularly for a multi sector day. I'm much more relaxed when I arrive at work 80% prepared already and only need to deal with last minute stuff once I get to the aircraft.

I've already worked out my fuel figure, set up the JEPP app for the route and entered the aircraft registration in the performance apps. If the aircraft arrives with a new MEL which requires a complicated operational procedure or the rostered F/O calls in sick at the last minute and I need to do his job until the replacement arrives I'm not overloaded.

[compressor stall]

Can someone confirm if in the JQ Preliminary Cockpit Preparation section of the eQRH SOP there is a line item of EFB/QRH check.

if it is in the JQ eQRH, then why no ATSB mention of the missed SOP in the cockpit?

If not in the JQ eQRH, then why no ATSB mention of this (as it is an unadulterated Airbus procedure). Surely having a SOP item in the cockpit is better safeguard than relying on it from memory at sign on?

[Buckshot]

Observation: Date of incident occurrence to date of report release = 514 days and yet still has basic error in report of two different aircraft regos (-VFK and -VFX). Wonder what else is incorrect in the data on which recommendations have been made to the operator?