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View Full Version : 2020: Dutch ATC legally threatens public media after EHAM runway blunder revealed.


Stratofreighter
17th Feb 2020, 12:37
...read it at
https://www.aviation24.be/airports/amsterdam-schiphol-ams/sixteen-aircraft-safely-landed-on-unavailable-runway/

The issue is a bit too complex to fully describe in a "forum subject header"

Dutch ATC / Luchtverkeersleiding Nederland now wants the audio at
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EV-lR4pdRuA
off the internet,
threatening legal action against public media in The Netherlands.
That amounts to censorship.

Barbra Streisand effect:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect

https://www.aviation24.be/airports/amsterdam-schiphol-ams/sixteen-aircraft-safely-landed-on-unavailable-runway/Making the runway availableThe procedure for starting to use a runway is that LVNL notifies the airport from the air traffic control tower
about the exact time at which they want to start using a runway.
After that, the airport performs an inspection of the runway.
After the inspection of the runway has taken place,
LVNL submits a formal request to the airport to start using the runway.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EV-lR4pdRuA
LVNL will now take legal action against the news organization
as the video clip was not removed before last night 23:59 (UTC +1),
LVNL states that incidents between air traffic control and an aircraft
may not be retransmitted and this according to a European Regulation.

Stratofreighter
17th Feb 2020, 12:44
...for anyone able to read Dutch , or able to use "machine translate", please follow
the journalist's Twitter account at
https://twitter.com/dsajet

Also see
https://www.nhnieuws.nl/nieuws/262111/steun-voor-nh-nieuws-na-dreigement-luchtverkeersleiding
for lots more.

A wellknown Dutch "shock log" has now also picked this up:
https://www.geenstijl.nl/5151955/schiphol-eist-verwijdering-blunderaudio-rtv-nh/

Plus
https://www.villamedia.nl/artikel/luchtverkeersleiding-dreigt-met-juridische-stappen-tegen-nh-nieuws ,
the official "Dutch Journalism Association" website.

"Fake news"? Unfortunately, this is not.
LVNL/Luchtverkeersleiding Nederland/Dutch ATC is trying to "sweep things under the carpet/cover-up things" over the last few years.

ATC Watcher
17th Feb 2020, 12:56
LVNL/Luchtverkeersleiding Nederland/Dutch ATC is trying to "sweep things under the carpet/cover-up things" over the last few years.
No , they are just ensuring that they will not be put on trial by social media. There are very well functioning institutions to deal with such incidents inside the Dutch system without adding twitter and Facebook ..
It is not limited to ATC by the way , he same goes for CVRs
Similar procedures and actions exists in many modern States (e.g Canad or New Zealand) where safety management is more important that journalist sensationalism...

Stratofreighter
17th Feb 2020, 13:15
...if you can read Dutch, then try
https://nos.nl/artikel/2322990-topman-schiphol-wil-dat-kabinet-knoop-doorhakt-over-groei-aantal-vluchten.html
Published last Friday.

Amsterdam Airport Schiphol and Dutch ATC want to raise flight-capacity/slots from 500,000 flights to 540,000 flights, putting pressure on Dutch national government.
Publicity like
https://www.nhnieuws.nl/nieuws/262102/luchtverkeersleiding-dreigt-met-juridische-stappen-tegen-nh-nieuws-na-bericht-over-landingen
they can ill-afford right now.

It is not that much about sensationalism anymore, it is about censorship.
And certainly not all Dutch institutions have the wellbeing of residents near Amsterdam Airport in mind.

rog747
17th Feb 2020, 13:16
UK does not allow Live ATC audio streaming so if the Dutch want to stop it then its up to them surely -

Stratofreighter
17th Feb 2020, 13:21
UK does not allow Live ATC audio streaming so if the Dutch want to stop it then its up to them surely -
In The Netherlands streaming live ATC audio is allowed.
We even used to have a website , which is/was
https://www.atcbox.com
/
https://www.linkedin.com/company/atcbox-foundation

OvertHawk
17th Feb 2020, 13:24
It's similar in UK

Whilst there is no law specifically prohibiting listening to ATC broadcasts it is illegal to act on the information in any way, share it or re-transmit it.

I personally find it reassuring that I can do my job day to day without the threat of a recording of my voice being put on youtube to be judged out of context by people who usually know little about aviation.

The only people who think this is a cover up don't know what they're on about. It's been fully reported through the correct channels and will be investigated.

However - "Cover up" makes much better headlines than " incident being investigated through normal processes" or "Media company being prosecuted for breaking the law" :ugh:

Stratofreighter
17th Feb 2020, 13:30
...you really LOVE the Youtube-account
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuedf_fJVrOppky5gl3U6QQ
/
https://twitter.com/VASAviation
then, I suppose... :}

Which is one of the gripes of this Dutch public news media company:
twitter.com/dsajet/status/1229089717960036352
Doron-NH

Stratofreighter
17th Feb 2020, 13:53
...and another link:
https://nltimes.nl/2020/02/17/16-planes-cleared-land-closed-schiphol-runway-report-air-traffic-controllers-reportedlyLVNL is now demanding that NH Nieuws remove a published fragment
n which air traffic controllers can be heard instructing planes to land on a closed runway,
and is threatening to take the broadcaster to court if it doesn't, NH Nieuws wrote.

According to the broadcaster,
LVNL is relying on a European regulation, which states that recordings of air traffic control may be listened to, but not published again.

NH Nieuws said that the social and journalistic importance of this fragment is of such concern that it will not be deleted.
The safety situation at Schiphol is an important and relevant topic (https://nltimes.nl/2020/02/11/ruling-parties-want-new-investigation-schiphol-safety-growth), the broadcaster said.

NH Nieuws also said that air traffic control makes selective use of this European regulation.

The broadcaster referred to a recording of King Willem-Alexander communicating with air traffic control as a pilot that was published on social media.
A communications adviser for LVNL called this a "nice fragment".

Last month, LVNL also allowed a vlogger into the control tower, and sound clips were published on their video blog, NH Nieuws said.
...which is Sam Chui at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKp_0268BVQ ...

The Netherlands association for journalism NVJ is impressed
with NH Nieuws for standing its ground, general secretary Thomas Bruning said on Twitter.

Stratofreighter
17th Feb 2020, 14:01
...if you can read Dutch, then try
https://nos.nl/artikel/2322990-topman-schiphol-wil-dat-kabinet-knoop-doorhakt-over-groei-aantal-vluchten.html
Published last Friday.

Amsterdam Airport Schiphol and Dutch ATC want to raise flight-capacity/slots from 500,000 flights to 540,000 flights, putting pressure on Dutch national government.
Publicity like
https://www.nhnieuws.nl/nieuws/262102/luchtverkeersleiding-dreigt-met-juridische-stappen-tegen-nh-nieuws-na-bericht-over-landingen
they can ill-afford right now.

It is not that much about sensationalism anymore, it is about censorship.
And certainly not all Dutch institutions have the wellbeing of residents near Amsterdam Airport in mind.

Amsterdam newspaper Parool is not that much sensationalist:
https://www.parool.nl/amsterdam/weer-vragen-over-veiligheid-schiphol-door-incident-zwanenburgbaan~bbf27729/
De affaire komt op een pikant moment.
Vorige week bepleitten twee van de vier regeringspartijen, D66 en ChristenUnie,
nieuw veiligheids*onderzoek (https://www.parool.nl/nederland/d66-en-cu-willen-nieuw-onderzoek-naar-veiligheid-schiphol~b22ab238/) voordat er een besluit valt of Schiphol verder mag groeien.

Bus Driver Man
17th Feb 2020, 14:02
...
It is not that much about sensationalism anymore, it is about censorship.
...
No, it is about preventing sensationalism.
According to the media, this was a blunder and a serious safety risk. According to LVNL, it was just a formality. Im sure that it will be dealt with an internal safety investigation and that a trial by media is absolutely unnecessary.

The runway had been inspected, and the runway lighting with the corresponding stopbars that protect against unauthorized entry onto the runway had been switched on.

To me, that seems like a formality as the runway was not officially cleared for operation. Apart from that, the runway was safe to be used.

This media sensationalism only works in favour of anyone who is against the airport and the aircraft noise in their backyard. This gives them more reasons to complain.
Unfortunately, the LVNL drew more attention and fuelled the sensationalism by wanting this video, which basically shows a non-event, to be removed.

Stratofreighter
17th Feb 2020, 14:10
No, it is about preventing sensationalism.

No, this is about censorship. This NH-Nieuws item of yesterday is only one of several recent incidents whereby LVNL puts pressure on Dutch public media.

Again read
https://www.parool.nl/amsterdam/weer-vragen-over-veiligheid-schiphol-door-incident-zwanenburgbaan~bbf27729/
in a translation.

The English-language
https://nltimes.nl/2020/02/11/ruling-parties-want-new-investigation-schiphol-safety-growth
was published earlier last week.Before Schiphol can be given permission to further expand its number of flight movements, there must first be a new investigation into safety at the airport, according to coalition parties D66 and ChristenUnie. They want to be absolutely certain that growth will not affect the safety of passengers and employees at Schiphol, NOS reports.

D66 parliamentarian Jan Paternotte and ChristenUnie MP Eppo Bruins want the Dutch Safety Bard to conduct a new investigation into safety at the airport and publish a report. Until then, Schiphol must remain limited to its current 500 thousand flight movements per year.

"It is already very busy in the air around Schiphol," Bruins said to the broadcaster. "If you are going to squeeze more traffic into that airspace, you will hit the limits of what is possible." Paternotte added that the Dutch Safety Board already published a critical report about safety at Schiphol (https://nltimes.nl/2018/04/25/schiphols-safety-measures-cant-keep-explosive-growth-safety-board-stresses) a few years ago. He gets the impression that not much was done with it. "There are collisions on the ground (https://nltimes.nl/2019/07/11/air-traffic-controller-apologizes-planes-colliding-schiphol) and all sorts of other incidents; 140 times per year. Before there is any growth, there must first be new advice from the Dutch Safety Board."

lomapaseo
17th Feb 2020, 14:20
No , they are just ensuring that they will not be put on trial by social media. There are very well functioning institutions to deal with such incidents inside the Dutch system without adding twitter and Facebook ..
It is not limited to ATC by the way , he same goes for CVRs
Similar procedures and actions exists in many modern States (e.g Canad or New Zealand) where safety management is more important that journalist sensationalism...


You can't get away with that over here. We have leakers and the news is free to post hearsay as fact

BDAttitude
17th Feb 2020, 15:19
From ITU Radio Regulations Vol. 1 from 2016
Administrative Provisions:
17.1 In the application of the appropriate provisions of the Constitution and the Convention, administrations bind themselves to take the necessary measures to prohibit and prevent:
17.2 a) the unauthorized interception of radiocommunications not intended for the general use of the public;
17.3 b) the divulgence of the contents, simple disclosure of the existence, publication or any use whatever, without authorization of information of any nature whatever obtained by the interception of the radiocommunications mentioned in No. 17.2

18.4 2 The holder of a licence is required to preserve the secrecy of telecommunications, as provided in the relevant provisions of the Constitution and the Convention. Moreover, the licence shall mention, specifically or by reference, that if the station includes a receiver, the interception of radiocommunication correspondence, other than that which the station is authorized to receive, is forbidden, and that in cases where such correspondence is involuntarily received, it shall not be reproduced, nor communicated to third parties, nor used for any purpose, and even its existence shall not be disclosed

Aeronautical Services:
36.3 3 Except as otherwise provided for in these Regulations, the person responsible, as well as all the persons who may have knowledge of any information whatever obtained by means of the radiocommunication service, are placed under the obligation of observing and ensuring the secrecy of correspondence.

37.11 4 Each administration shall take the necessary steps to place operators under the obligation to preserve the secrecy of correspondence as provided for in No. 18.4.



I guess some countries fall short of enforcing what they signed up for.

Stratofreighter
17th Feb 2020, 15:42
...guess so.

See
https://www.nhnieuws.nl/nieuws/262102/luchtverkeersleiding-dreigt-met-juridische-stappen-tegen-nh-nieuws-na-bericht-over-landingen
Selectief beleid

Opvallend is dat de LVNL zeer selectief is in het eisen van verwijdering van fragmenten tussen de verkeerstoren en piloten.

Een fragment (https://twitter.com/MennoSwart/status/1218227479049011200) waarin Koning Willem Alexander (die ook KLM-piloot is) te horen is,
werd zelfs door het Instagram-account van LVNL geliket.

Het fragment werd uitgezonden bij meerdere televisieprogramma's.

Ook plaatste nota bene de CEO van de luchtverkeersleiding, Michiel van Dorst,
een fragment op YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NFq2eZSDJE) waarin allerlei opnames te horen zijn tussen de verkeersleiding en het toestel.

Vorige maand nog liet de LVNL een vlogger toe tot de verkeerstoren (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKp_0268BVQ),
die daarin ook geluidsfragmenten maakte van de communicatie tussen piloten en verkeersleiders.
...it may very well be
hat in future Luchtverkeersleiding Nederland LVNL
itself
will have to refrain from using radio-communications.

Dutch media is now particularly riled that that LVNL is using these rules randomly as it seems fit to themselves...
https://twitter.com/dsajet/status/1229036571254558722
/
https://twitter.com/dsajet/status/1229091538057256962
Klopt. En LVNL cherrypickt in die wet.
Verbieden wat ze niet uitkomt,
toejuichen dat wat ze in het zonnetje zet.

Stratofreighter
17th Feb 2020, 15:47
...so, LVNL applies the rules randomly, as seems to fit to its' own goals.

If they succeed in forcing that Youtube-clip of the internet
(there are MULTIPLE copies floating over social media now, by the way),
then it is very likely that in future
some parties may take Dutch ATC / LVNL to court for arbitrarily enforcing these rules.

Cherry-picking legislation is VERY much frowned upon in The Netherlands.
LVNL/Dutch ATC has taken the lid of Pandora's Box.
If they press on with this lawsuit, then it will come back to harm them in future.
Dutch media has got a long memory.

A0283
17th Feb 2020, 16:32
What you would expect from LVNL is a preliminary public summary of the incidents, indicating which party investigates the event, and when the results of the investigation will be publicly reported.

ATC Watcher
17th Feb 2020, 16:37
...so, LVNL applies the rules randomly, as seems to fit to its' own goals.

If they succeed in forcing that Youtube-clip of the internet
(there are MULTIPLE copies floating over social media now, by the way),
then it is very likely that in future
some parties may take Dutch ATC / LVNL to court for arbitrarily enforcing these rules.

Cherry-picking legislation is VERY much frowned upon in The Netherlands.
LVNL/Dutch ATC has taken the lid of Pandora's Box.
If they press on with this lawsuit, then it will come back to harm them in future.
Dutch media has got a long memory.

Who are you ? obviously not a pilot or a controller, and obviously not knowing how we work . Yes an error was made, corrected and an investigation to make sure it does not happen again is on the way . That is what we do everyday . We definitively do not need twitter or Facebook to tell us what to do. You are barking at the wrong trees and the wrong people here ..

homonculus
17th Feb 2020, 16:41
I find it interesting that a european country belonging to the EU which enacted Freedom of Information Acts to give its citizens access to information should allow not only restricting information but the use of threats of legal action to suppress the information once it is in the public domain. There is no issue of national security and this is clearly censorship. Whether the relevant authorities undertake an investigation or a proper investigation is a separate issue.

Ironically if this threat had not been made only a handful of people would have been aware of the probably trivial event. But now millions are aware and reputations are being trashed. Conspiracies will seen where in fact there is just bureaucratic stupidity.

Intrance
17th Feb 2020, 16:53
I am a pilot. I don't mind a single bit that my ATC communication might be recorded and re-transmitted. You are talking on non-encrypted hardware, face reality. I also don't mind people like NH News here kind of accidentally uncovering a mistake by ATC. Mistakes happen. Own up to them.

This could have been so easily dealt with by LVNL/Dutch ATC by simply issuing a statement themselves. Be transparent. Be ahead of the story. If it was purely a formality, no harm issuing a press release disclosing the facts, actions taken, done. Instead of this surfacing in the news through an innocent video weeks later and now running around trying to do damage control by means of hypocritical law suits.

Less Hair
17th Feb 2020, 17:38
The story is out now. There is no way to cover things up again legal threat or not. Id say its not too late to come up with some smart press release and rectify this. There is no value in fighting the story.

His dudeness
17th Feb 2020, 17:44
I am a pilot. I don't mind a single bit that my ATC communication might be recorded and re-transmitted.

Im a pilot too and I mind "it". Have journalists taped and broadcasted all over the internet during their work.

If and when THIS happens, quid pro quo, put "us" up the internet. (and yes, Im aware of the reality, thanks)

To investigate issues in aviation, we do not need the press up front, we need the procedures we already have.

Less Hair
17th Feb 2020, 18:11
ATC thats formal phrases and nothing personal or even private at busy airports like Schiphol. I dont see the problem you do. All those spotters have receivers and might listen in so what?

His dudeness
17th Feb 2020, 18:19
Listen in and publishing with a direct access for anyone are 2 different things.

OldnGrounded
17th Feb 2020, 19:14
Im a pilot too and I mind "it". Have journalists taped and broadcasted all over the internet during their work.

If and when THIS happens, quid pro quo, put "us" up the internet. (and yes, Im aware of the reality, thanks)

To investigate issues in aviation, we do not need the press up front, we need the procedures we already have.

Journalists' work is all over the Internet, and the airwaves, and in print. That's pretty much the nature of their work. Their private and internal communications are not.

Neither are the private and internal communications of pilots and controllers floating around in the public sphere. What is said in cockpits, towers and other ATC facilities isn't published or broadcast (well, except when accidents result in CVR transcripts being, at least partially, released).

I'm having a bit of a difficult time imagining what some people are saying to ATC that they feel a need to keep secret from the public. I must not have been listening to the interesting frequencies.

Bus Driver Man
18th Feb 2020, 00:44
No, this is about censorship. This NH-Nieuws item of yesterday is only one of several recent incidents whereby LVNL puts pressure on Dutch public media.

Again read
https://www.parool.nl/amsterdam/weer-vragen-over-veiligheid-schiphol-door-incident-zwanenburgbaan~bbf27729/
in a translation.

The English-language
https://nltimes.nl/2020/02/11/ruling-parties-want-new-investigation-schiphol-safety-growth
was published earlier last week.
-The runway was inspected and operational. It was only not officially released for service.
-The incident was reported and published on the LVNL website. How can this be censorship?
-Technical adjustments will be implemented from March this year to prevent this in the future. So lessons learned from previous mistakes. A mistake was made and measures will be taken.

Anything else is just pure sensationalism by the media. As usual.

Incidents happen all the time. Anywhere. And they are being dealt with by internal investigations. We dont need the media and the public opinion about something most people have no clue about.
I do admit that the LVNL has created a storm in a teacup themselves, which obviously works in favour of the media.

Havingwings4ever
18th Feb 2020, 01:54
I agree. The poster 'StratoCruiser' got a bit enthusiastic putting up links to the same subject I think.

Having flown in/out of EHAM/AMS/Schiphol airport for 30 years(and all over the world) I believe Dutch ATC are true professionals, EHAM is not the easiest ap for ATC looking at the layout of all those runways and neighboring airspace restrictions. And their standard ATC phraseology is usually better than some English speaking countries, sometimes feel bad for an Asian carrier coming into LAX, JFK ,MIA etc.
We are all human and even the utmost professional will make mistakes.

FrequentSLF
18th Feb 2020, 04:48
As SLF I cannot understand the reason of this thread, in summary someone posted some conversation on YouTube, others did not like to have their conversations posted so sue for removal.
Is this worth a thread, plus several posts to keep it going?
TBH I found just annoying, but that is my FLS stupid opinion.

Gauges and Dials
18th Feb 2020, 05:18
If I walk down a public street, anyone has a right to publish an account of having seen me, or even to take a photograph of me and publish it.

If I speak on the radio over the public airwaves, I can't imagine what reasonable legal theory prevents anyone who chooses to listen from reporting what they heard.

sandos
18th Feb 2020, 07:27
The rules about not being allowed to act on, or retransmit these recordings are idiotic in my mind. As mentioned, taking photos in public is somewhat similar: its a sensation that is easily accessible. Trying to restrict the flow of information is like restricting a stream of water with a spoon: almost impossible, and not in any way productive. Sweden has them, as well. I have been thinking about just opening a darknet site to share my local ATC frequency, but sadly I think its probably soooo boring to listen to. Now if I had lived close to a larger airport, however...

Yes, sensationalism is a problem. One solution: let people hear how often mistakes are made so that its not a big deal. Media and people get used/bored by stuff happening. By the way, what about all the US recordings that are out there of similar incidents? Did the world somehow crash and burn from those?

the_stranger
18th Feb 2020, 08:03
If I walk down a public street, anyone has a right to publish an account of having seen me, or even to take a photograph of me and publish it.

Not in the Netherlands, at least not as clearly as you state.

There are circumstances where publishing a photo of you walking on a (public) street is not allowed or at least debatable.
​​​

b263354
18th Feb 2020, 11:01
Holy crap! Here we go again! As stated earlier by various persons, OWN UP TO IT. And to the others, stop acting like those entitled little brats that are flooding the aviation sector as we speak. It was an error, it IS public domain, they ARE funded by the public, so they CAN be held accountable by the public. FACT is this IS censorship, why? It comes at a tricky timestamp because of reasons stated earlier, little good boy dutch of the class has been called out anyways because we as all the rest do bad and can't hide behind the charade anymore. (elbow deep already concerning cover ups but back on topic again).

As far as I am concerned they may live stream me on camera so that all in the back can see how "we as a team" are professionals and when so, are professional and adult enough to own up to mistakes and fix them. (PG13)

Black Pudding
18th Feb 2020, 12:17
I’m struggling to understand what the reply was to the question why the go

What was the reply from ATC ?

the_stranger
18th Feb 2020, 17:07
Im struggling to understand what the reply was to the question why the go

What was the reply from ATC ?
That the runway was closed and therefore they couldn't give permission to land.

Gove N.T.
18th Feb 2020, 17:51
May the gods protect us all from sensationalist journalism, the Twitterfarti, the Daily Mail “terror in the skies " type headlines.
Perhaps the ATC fellows have made a rod for their own backs bu really, this is a nothing story

MathFox
18th Feb 2020, 19:13
May the gods protect us all from sensationalist journalism, the Twitterfarti, the Daily Mail terror in the skies " type headlines.
Perhaps the ATC fellows have made a rod for their own backs bu really, this is a nothing story

"Airplanes landed without damage on a clear runway"

The events are an indication that, despite all professionalism of ATC, the holes in the cheese at Schiphol are larger than those usually found in Dutch cheese. Problems have been reported before, advisories have been published, but process and safety improvements are slow.

Gauges and Dials
19th Feb 2020, 02:23
Not in the Netherlands, at least not as clearly as you state.

There are circumstances where publishing a photo of you walking on a (public) street is not allowed or at least debatable.
​​​

I fully understand that not every government protects freedom in the same way.

lomapaseo
19th Feb 2020, 22:44
I fully understand that not every government protects freedom in the same way.

The next step is enforcement,. That is usually far more difficult than publishing a rule.