Reasons for NOT doing SLS - please add yours

[controlledrest]

A few reasons I can think of for not taking SLS:No meaningful profit share since 2010

No apology or accountability for fuel gambling hedge losses

No 13th month for aircrew, multiple times

Base closures due to CX law breaking (Paris)

No real basing options (only enough to try to stop crew leaving)

Direct entry FOs over those SOs with adequate experience

Many SOs with no meaningful experience

Shorter Layovers in cheaper hotels

Inadequate housing allowance

Renege on 25 year housing

Cuts to medical benefits

Salary lagging inflation

No seniority type transfers

No seniority roster system (fair share is meaningless)

No subsidised Junk for hire

Cuts to base training so new FOs can barely fly the aircraft, line crew have to finish off their training

Cuts to SO training so many can’t even make a radio position report, let alone be left unsupervised for a toilet break over high terrain, line crew have to finish off their training

[RAT Management]

Sounds like:
5 demands not one less.
revolution of our times.
This came from a United silent majority lead by a vocal minority, yet still no progress has been made, only chaos and destruction.

Unfortunately we have no unity, and the message will not get thru.

Good luck. Add oil!

[From a distance]

I cannot do SLS because there is “No money in the Pot”

[cxorcist]

I cannot do SLS because there is “No money in the Pot”
Hahaha, same!

[Slasher1]

I like to dwell in the positive and not the negative world but occasionally miss the mark.

What I’d really like to hear is one positive reason FOR taking SLS. Or a coherent rationale why it would benefit the pilot body OR the long term health of the place.

The money won’t matter; compared with the huge capital costs involved this is a token gesture of goodwill (which has been exploited in the past) which is more of a face saving type of thing. A literal fart in a hurricane when it comes to cash. Providing an illusion of ‘doing the right thing’ while acting in the opposite direction to address the high ticket operational costs (and past ‘blunders’ for that matter—assuming they were actually ‘blunders’ and weren’t a form of money laundering).

If retrenchment is necessary, it delays this from occurring (and also delays the subsequent recall provisions) — preventing a ‘right sizing’ of the airline (and for people to get on with their lives).

It undermines pretty much ALL existing pilot COSs/EAs/CA/CBAs by subverting the legitimate (negotiated) contractural provisions designed for contingencies like this.

It directly subverts the concept of seniority which is the basis for pretty much every airline contract everywhere. In fact, it PENALIZES seniority.

It enables the practice of hiring on ever decreasing contractural conditions which undermine those in existence; in the long run this benefits no one. It rewards bad behavior morally, economically, and contractually.

I’d really (seriously) appreciate a coherent argument given the nature of the pilot contracts how somehow this might benefit the pilot body OR others and a good argument FOR SLS.

[rhoshamboe]

Don't expect anything from the meeting with the AOA's to change your mind. It will be along the lines of "we're not offering you anything, you just have to help out and take SLS". I'd sit on your hands for the outcome of that meeting before I signed up if you haven't already.

[SeldomFixit]

You are a number. You are not a Swire Prince. Look after number one.

[cxorcist]

You are a number. You are not a Swire Prince. Look after number one.
Exactly, just like the Swire princes do...

[Farman Biplane]

IF......

Perhaps if our company “leadership” had put all of the affordable ex-gratia payment money into a pot and divided it evenly into a numbers of days pay for every employee (similar time how Profit Share was once payed a long time ago...) then every employee would have got X days of pay as an ex-gratia payment.

But NO, they decided to cap the payment at HK$30000, thereby disproportionately affecting all pilots and senior cabin crew. So a Captain gave away 3 weeks of pay and that equally important office worker who is apparently a more important piece of the machine got the full 13th month.

Step forward to now, and the office worker sees the SLS as simply giving back ¾ of the 13th month and getting a few weeks off work. The Captains perspective is that they have already donated 3 weeks of pay via the 13th month cap and now the company wants another 3 weeks pay.

What IF our “leaders” hadn’t been so vindictive with the ex-gratia methodology /13th month cap? Perhaps there would have been a bigger take up in the SLS already? Lessons to be learned for this “stronger company “ that will emerge from this event?

[unitedabx]

Meanwhile, CARGOLUX has increased its tariffs into China by 400% and is making a killing on the freight business from Europe into and out of China. Crews never leave the flight deck. It's like the Berlin Airlift all over again. So why hasn't CX cashed in on this little earner ?
Answer : too busy screwing it's staff.

[cxorcist]

Meanwhile, CARGOLUX has increased its tariffs into China by 400% and is making a killing on the freight business from Europe into and out of China. Crews never leave the flight deck. It's like the Berlin Airlift all over again. So why hasn't CX cashed in on this little earner ?
Answer : too busy screwing it's staff.
Correct! Too many other Swire interests in Mainland China.

[cxorcist]

IF......

Perhaps if our company “leadership” had put all of the affordable ex-gratia payment money into a pot and divided it evenly into a numbers of days pay for every employee (similar time how Profit Share was once payed a long time ago...) then every employee would have got X days of pay as an ex-gratia payment.

But NO, they decided to cap the payment at HK$30000, thereby disproportionately affecting all pilots and senior cabin crew. So a Captain gave away 3 weeks of pay and that equally important office worker who is apparently a more important piece of the machine got the full 13th month.

Step forward to now, and the office worker sees the SLS as simply giving back ¾ of the 13th month and getting a few weeks off work. The Captains perspective is that they have already donated 3 weeks of pay via the 13th month cap and now the company wants another 3 weeks pay.

What IF our “leaders” hadn’t been so vindictive with the ex-gratia methodology /13th month cap? Perhaps there would have been a bigger take up in the SLS already? Lessons to be learned for this “stronger company “ that will emerge from this event?
100% accurate.

[Dilbert68]

They lost me when they paid a 35k bonus to everyone except me. What genius thought that was a good plan? Screw all the Captains, they get paid too much already.

This company is a case study on how NOT to manage people.

[Sqwak7700]

Isn’t it a violation of employment ordinance to not provide the working roster for the next month on the 15th of the current month?

Now for those that sign the “blank check” form, fair enough, you’ve given them full consent to have their way with you. But for those of us that haven’t, could we not legally tack on those missing notification days in front of the March roster? Another lawsuit to add to the pile? :rolleyes:

Word on the street is that those consenting have signed off critical redundancy protections in their contract, making them less complicated to put on furlough than someone who hasn’t.

[Ex Douglas Driver]

Isn’t it a violation of employment ordinance to not provide the working roster for the next month on the 15th of the current month?

Now for those that sign the “blank check” form, fair enough, you’ve given them full consent to have their way with you. But for those of us that haven’t, could we not legally tack on those missing notification days in front of the March roster? Another lawsuit to add to the pile? :rolleyes:

Word on the street is that those consenting have signed off critical redundancy protections in their contract, making them less complicated to put on furlough than someone who hasn’t.

Not according to the Hong Kong Employment Ordinance CAP57
18. Appointment of rest days
(1) Rest days shall be appointed by an employer and he may appoint different rest days for different employees.
(Amended 71 of 1976 s. 4)
(2) Subject to subsection (4), every employer shall, before the commencement of every month, inform each employee orally or in writing of his rest days in that month.
(3) The provisions of subsection (2) shall be deemed to be complied with if an employer exhibits in a conspicuous place in the place of employment and for so long as it applies a roster showing the days appointed to be rest days for each employee during the month.
(4) Subsection (2) shall not apply where rest days are appointed on fixed days in each period of 7 days on a regular basis.
(Amended 71 of 1976 s. 4)
(5) An employer may, with the consent of his employee, substitute for any rest day appointed under this section some other rest day—
(a) within the same month and before the rest day so appointed; or
(b) within the period of 30 days next following the rest day so appointed.

[Farman Biplane]

“Word on the street is that those consenting have signed off critical redundancy protections in their contract, making them less complicated to put on furlough than someone who hasn’t.”

Is this related to the “temporary variation” of the contract, which has not been specifically published and disseminated? Do tell!

[Xfiles]

Word on the street is that those consenting have signed off critical redundancy protections in their contract, making them less complicated to put on furlough than someone who hasn’t.

IF the Company have altered the redundancy clause for those who sign for SLS, it makes more sense they will protect those who support and EXEMPT them from any redundancy or furlough that may result from the current downturn.

[cxorcist]

I cannot think of a single upside to taking SLS EXCEPT for the brown nose points. So you will be viewed as a “team player” when you put in for training or a management position 🤮

No thanks!

[AllWobbly]

I cannot think of a single upside to taking SLS EXCEPT for the brown nose points. So you will be viewed as a “team player” when you put in for training or a management position 🤮

No thanks!

3 weeks on the Gold Coast?

[claraball]

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/427x427/86272432_1613525408797582_6549638312502493184_n_27e79c2bba5d dd6b7b48be66021fa1f20afd0afe.jpg
There has been no one on the third floor I would take my problem to for over a year now. That failure of leadership demands greater attention than Swire's panic over their cash cow's demise due to their own misguided greed and incompetence.

[cxorcist]

3 weeks on the Gold Coast?
Uh, you think you’ll get those three weeks consecutive? Keep dreaming. And you’ll probably get that time off anyways. Paid or unpaid? Not hard to choose.

[AllWobbly]

Uh, you think you’ll get those three weeks consecutive? Keep dreaming. And you’ll probably get that time off anyways. Paid or unpaid? Not hard to choose.

well i can but dream

[Dilbert68]

Well, the uptake of SLS from the trainers has been "fantastic". Shocker.

[Sqwak7700]

IF the Company have altered the redundancy clause for those who sign for SLS, it makes more sense they will protect those who support and EXEMPT them from any redundancy or furlough that may result from the current downturn.
Quote (https://www.pprune.org/fragrant-harbour/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=10691617)

They don’t need your consent for improvements. They DO need your consent to take things from your contract. Hence why the blanket clause in the SLS signup is so troubling and dangerous.

But you are right, Cathay never screws over people that go out of their way to help them. Has never happened, so why worry about it? I’m sure you’ll be fine for taking SLS, don’t worry about it mate. :rolleyes:

[Slasher1]

Word on the street is that those consenting have signed off critical redundancy protections in their contract, making them less complicated to put on furlough than someone who hasn’t.

IF the Company have altered the redundancy clause for those who sign for SLS, it makes more sense they will protect those who support and EXEMPT them from any redundancy or furlough that may result from the current downturn.

Ya..........I don't think you can do this one way or another.

Most of the COSs/EAs/CAs/CBAs have the redundancy clause referencing the master seniority list. In HKG it's likely possible you could amend YOUR OWN contract/COS but not others. You could certainly not alter the various other collective agreements. Nor is there an easy way for an individual to amend a collective agreement in most other jurisdictions (when a collective agreement exists, in most countries unless there's a contractual provision for it a person cannot make an individual 'deal'). So while you potentially could screw yourself you couldn't alter the requirement to make people redundant based on seniority for everyone else's agreement.

Meaning that if an individual were getting preferential treatment with regard to seniority in HKG the unions in other jurisdictions could file a complaint in THEIR jurisdiction (and adjudicate it with respect to their particular CA). In fact by not consulting with the TUs and 'imposing' this the Company may well have opened up a can of worms. For example, had the terms been clearly delineated and the TUs worked it out in their jurisdiction there may not have been a problem. But now the company may not be able to pay back SLS in those jurisdictions downline even if it wants to. Since there was voluntary leave proposed with no delineated concrete contractual terms (with subsequent 'payment' of salary reduction for this leave) and this came at the expense of NOT making redundancies IAW seniority, this has made some TU members worse off. One possible scheme MIGHT have been to frame this as a form of interest free loan to be paid back according to contract terms. But it went into an uncertain 'soft' quagmire with no delineated terms. So those who didn't take this voluntary scheme have been made worse off by the lack of forced redundancies IAW contract. Now if the company pays back those taking it, those not have been disparaged by the voluntary scheme and may well have basis for grievance or legal action IAW the contract.

SLS falls under the 'voluntary leave' section of those CAs. When the CAs were ratified, I guess it was assumed the individual members would recognize an attempt to short circuit their CA and act accordingly when and if it happened. And could not be compelled to take some scheme which might do so. ON these CAs, there really isn't a way to take a voluntary redundancy (with the layoff procedures being delineated in the CA itself--some with 6 months pay protection and recall rights). I guess some scheme could be concocted and placed under the voluntary leave section much like SLS was that offers a better deal (similar to the way 'real' air carriers do it--overage leave where you're essentially taking a voluntary redundancy over the time period you choose with chosen start and end days; this varies with degree of pay protection and benefit retention).

Were an individual given preferential treatment with regard to redundancy this would violate the OTHER contracts on bases (which are enforceable via real contract and labor law in the respective countries). As would any punitive action for NOT taking a voluntary scheme (or preferential treatment FOR taking a voluntary scheme) in those countries.

[Freehills]

Best reason to take SLS - use the time off to find another job

[cxorcist]

Best reason to take SLS - use the time off to find another job
Truth! But can’t you do that on paid time off?

[Angel 8]

I will not sign SLS because:
1- My Mortgage lender refused to allow 3 weeks free from payments.
2- My Utility suppliers will not give me 3 weeks free Electricity, Gas, Water etc.
3- Supermarkets are refusing to supply me with 3 weeks shopping.
4- Because it will not make a difference to the company's demise

[Frogman1484]

Best reason to take SLS - use the time off to find another job
fishing trip with the boys!

[unitedabx]

The outburst by the DFO on Yammar yesterday shows what pressure he is under to secure his annual bonus. It doesn't look good that all the other department heads have secured over 80% sign up to SLS and it is noticeable that even the GMA can't boast a 100% return.
What seems to be totally misunderstood ( but more likely ignored ) by senior management is that there is absolutely no trust in senior management by the CX pilot body.
So the DFO could tell me it's Friday afternoon and I wouldn't believe him. It's that simple. CEO doesn't get it and actually he's not interested. He has his shareholders to satisfy and they will get their dividend end of March no matter what and then he gets his bonus. GMA doesn't get it and is pleading "not on my watch" for the transgressions of his predecessors and his bonus is less secure this year and his accent to DFO in jeopardy. Conveniently they jump from Cathay Group to CX to KA, whichever suits their story at the time. If they want to save money, ground KA and let CX do all the work. If they want to make money, fly the pax with the A350's, ground the A330's and let the 777's supplement the freight operation in and out of China. Other carriers like Cargolux are charging 400% markups to take components to USA and Europe while CX stands still. If you want to save money, stop all base training. If you want to save money retire the many hangers on in engineering/stores/admin who are over 60 and retained on special consultancy deals. If you want to save money let your part time sim instructors go. Cashflow is critical we are being told. Really, are we still paying USD6 per can of Coke ? Of course we are because it's to a Swire company. Senior management has cried wolf once too often and when it really counts, when the house might really be falling down their cries are now lost in the wind.

OH, I just checked it is Friday.

[Asturias56]

Best reason to take SLS - use the time off to find another job


Qantas are going to be looking for non-union labour to operate Sunrise............. you might even be able to stay in HK........

[unitedabx]

Notice how silent the KA pilots have gone ?
100% signed up for SLS.
CX carrying this lame duck airline again.

[AllWobbly]

Notice how silent the KA pilots have gone ?
100% signed up for SLS.
CX carrying this lame duck airline again.

rubbish 56%

[Shot Nancy]

Minor point, however.
Really, are we still paying USD6 per can of Coke ?
As you rightly point out Swire own the coke franchise in HKG.
Why do you think that your uniforms are dry cleaned by another Swire company?

[Slasher1]

Minor point, however.

As you rightly point out Swire own the coke franchise in HKG.
Why do you think that your uniforms are dry cleaned by another Swire company?

Real estate, maintenance, hotels, banking, shipping, perhaps even fuel and delivery, etc.

It’s kind of like a circular Company Store !

[TSIO540]

Notice how silent the KA pilots have gone ?
100% signed up for SLS.
CX carrying this lame duck airline again.

where do you get this crap?

[AllWobbly]

where do you get this crap?

he just makes it up?

[Kitsune]

Real estate, maintenance, hotels, banking, shipping, perhaps even fuel and delivery, etc.

It’s kind of like a circular Company Store !

In Kai Tak days Swires were said to extract 70% of all net revenue from the whole airport operation....

[Asturias56]

Real estate, maintenance, hotels, banking, shipping, perhaps even fuel and delivery, etc.

It’s kind of like a circular Company Store !


Yeah well - they saw the opportunity and invested - others didn't or sold out.........................

[Freehills]

Qantas are going to be looking for non-union labour to operate Sunrise............. you might even be able to stay in HK........

heh - someone recognises the name...

[bobrun]

Cathay Pacific Hiring Chauffeurs For Office Staff Amid Business Crisis (https://www.forbes.com/sites/willhorton1/2020/01/15/cathay-pacific-hiring-chauffeurs-for-office-staff-amidst-business-crisis/#25385fb617c7)

[ACMS]

Cathay Pacific Hiring Chauffeurs For Office Staff Amid Business Crisis (https://www.forbes.com/sites/willhorton1/2020/01/15/cathay-pacific-hiring-chauffeurs-for-office-staff-amidst-business-crisis/#25385fb617c7)


Must have a few Pilots they could use, already paying them after all.

[Oasis]

Must have a few Pilots they could use, already paying them after all.
we’re apparently just like glorified bus drivers anyway.

[dingodyle]

The outburst by the DFO on Yammar yesterday shows what pressure he is under to secure his annual bonus. It doesn't look good that all the other department heads have secured over 80% sign up to SLS and it is noticeable that even the GMA can't boast a 100% return.
What seems to be totally misunderstood ( but more likely ignored ) by senior management is that there is absolutely no trust in senior management by the CX pilot body.
So the DFO could tell me it's Friday afternoon and I wouldn't believe him. It's that simple. CEO doesn't get it and actually he's not interested. He has his shareholders to satisfy and they will get their dividend end of March no matter what and then he gets his bonus. GMA doesn't get it and is pleading "not on my watch" for the transgressions of his predecessors and his bonus is less secure this year and his accent to DFO in jeopardy. Conveniently they jump from Cathay Group to CX to KA, whichever suits their story at the time. If they want to save money, ground KA and let CX do all the work. If they want to make money, fly the pax with the A350's, ground the A330's and let the 777's supplement the freight operation in and out of China. Other carriers like Cargolux are charging 400% markups to take components to USA and Europe while CX stands still. If you want to save money, stop all base training. If you want to save money retire the many hangers on in engineering/stores/admin who are over 60 and retained on special consultancy deals. If you want to save money let your part time sim instructors go. Cashflow is critical we are being told. Really, are we still paying USD6 per can of Coke ? Of course we are because it's to a Swire company. Senior management has cried wolf once too often and when it really counts, when the house might really be falling down their cries are now lost in the wind.

OH, I just checked it is Friday.


Well said :ok: