Norwich Approach/Radar

[Mooncrest]

I remember reading in a Pooley's Guide about thirty years ago that NWI APP was provided by a Norwich Airport ATCO but based at a radar console at RAF Coltishall. Was there any particular reason for this - operational, technical or financial ? Thankyou.

[Mooncrest]

I'm sure Norwich had its own Plessey 430 at one time. Maybe it was easier to coordinate their traffic with Coltishall's if the controllers were all together.

[rodan]

My understanding at the time was that Norwich Radar was done from a console at Coltishall only while Coltishall was operational. In the evenings and weekends, Norwich Radar was done from a position in the Norwich VCR using a display that doubled as Norwich Tower's ATM whenever Radar wasn't there.

The reasons for using a console at Coltishall were presumably to do with ease of coordination, given the close proximity of the two airfields and their approach/climbout tracks.

I don't know what the operation at Norwich is like now, but I'd hope they at least have a separate Radar Control Room.

[whowhenwhy]

As one who was there, at least in early 00s, Rodan is correct. During Coltishall opening hours the Norwich approach controller would sit at Coltishall. I will always remember when we at Coltishall felt a bit pleased that the old Watchman Crown displays had been replaced with colour LCDs. On our first day operational with them, the late Robin Scrivens wandered in with trademark shorts and sandals and highlighted that they'd had such kit at Norwich for about 10 years. Greatly deflated Coltishall controllers.

Don't know about the original reasons but I can vouch for the fact that it made coordination and understanding of each others tasks much easier being able to sit alongside each other.

[Mooncrest]

Thanks everyone. The coordination angle makes sense. Another oddity I read about Norwich ATC was in a book by Peter Crook, a former Genair captain. He quotes an exchange between a Genair pilot and Norwich ATC where the aircraft is given start clearance from TWR and then instructed to taxi to "Marshalling Point 27". The aircraft is then transferred to APP for takeoff clearance. I haven't a clue what a Marshalling Point is in this context, nor have I ever come across the Approach Controller performing the Air control function. Mysterious.

[chevvron]

Thanks everyone. The coordination angle makes sense. Another oddity I read about Norwich ATC was in a book by Peter Crook, a former Genair captain. He quotes an exchange between a Genair pilot and Norwich ATC where the aircraft is given start clearance from TWR and then instructed to taxi to "Marshalling Point 27". The aircraft is then transferred to APP for takeoff clearance. I haven't a clue what a Marshalling Point is in this context, nor have I ever come across the Approach Controller performing the Air control function. Mysterious.
'Marshalling point' is the original name for a holding point on grass airfields with no marked taxiways; used to have them at White Waltham in the '60s when it was still RAF marked with a letter 'M' in black on a yellow background.
Dunsfold used to do the 'contact approach for takeoff' thing in the '80s when I visited a couple of times by air. I was parked by the newer southside tower (visiting ATC); was cleared to enter and backtrack at the intersection and told to contact approach for takeoff clearance.
Cranfield Radar used to operate from a console in the tower at RAE Bedford until Bedford closed; course like Norwich, they couldn't do this at weekends but in those days, Cranfield management did the sensible thing and allowed people to 'self announce' when operating in/out of Cranfield at weekends; why yhey won't do that nowadays is beyond me.
TAG's original plan for Farnborough was for Farnborough Approach to be done from Odiham and when Odiham got its own radar (ODI App/Radar had been done from Farnborough's 'old' tower from 1975 until 2001 sometimes with RAF controllers ['75/76 and '98 to 2001] - and sometimes with NATS controllers '76 - '98) two extra consoles were installed to facilitate this. We (Farnborough ATC) tried to point out to TAG that this would mean no radar service when Odiham ATC was closed ie weekends, evenings, PH and during TACEVALs and they eventually 'saw the light' and ordered a new radar for Farnborough which was ready for use by 'O' date, 23 Nov 2002.

[Mooncrest]

Thankyou for your explanations, chevron. Now I know what a Marshalling Point is/was, it doesn't really make sense that they formed part of ATC procedure at a civil licensed airfield with hard runways and taxiways, IYSWIM. I still don't get why APP would be issuing takeoff clearances from any airfield. One wonders if landing clearances were also part of the NWI APP remit.

On a side note, at Leeds Bradford some decades ago, TWR and APP (procedural) were combined on a single frequency. The RAD controller was also based in the VCR but shut away in a tiny corner with a single PPI fed from a Plessey 430. Radar was then purely for vectors and SRAs. No RAS or RIS was available. I think East Midlands (perhaps other airfields too) had a similar arrangement for a time.

[radarman]

Ref the comments about transferring to APP for take off clearance: My first operational posting was RAF Wittering, at that time operating Blue Steel Victor Mk 2's. The procedure was for Tower to issue taxy instructions and line-up clearance, and then transfer the a/c to the approach frequency (all positions could select Tx and Rx on all station frequencies). However, the tower controller was still responsible for issuing take-off clearance, but using the approach frequency. Approach then took over control when radar identified the aircraft after departure. I think it was a Bomber Command procedure to ensure that should an incident occur shortly after take off, both ATC positions knew exactly which frequency the aircraft was using, and there was no need to instruct the pilot to change frequency in the middle of an emergency.

[spekesoftly]

I recall a similar procedure during my time at RAF Linton in the mid '70s. If the JP pilots wanted radar monitoring after depature (usually in poor weather) then the request was abbreviated to "C/S request take-off and climb". Tower would inform the Linton Zone Controller, and then transmit "C/S clear take-off, call rolling on Stud 5". The pilot then lined up on the runway, changed to Stud 5, and transmitted "C/S Rolling". It saved the pilots from having to change frequency when just airborne and entering IMC. Tower would also monitor Stud 5.

[chevvron]

I recall a similar procedure during my time at RAF Linton in the mid '70s. If the JP pilots wanted radar monitoring after depature (usually in poor weather) then the request was abbreviated to "C/S request take-off and climb". Tower would inform the Linton Zone Controller, and then transmit "C/S clear take-off, call rolling on Stud 5". The pilot then lined up on the runway, changed to Stud 5, and transmitted "C/S Rolling". It saved the pilots from having to change frequency when just airborne and entering IMC. Tower would also monitor Stud 5.
Yeah it would allow the departure controller to issue climbout instructions prior to the aircraft rolling too, a system used by NATS at Boscombe Down until the RAF 'stole' the ATC task (only joking!!)

[stopbar]

Norwich Radar was operational at RAF Coltishall whenever they were open, this aided the coordination between the units. This was especially necessary when Colt were on Rw04 as the approach path was directly over Norwich Airport. Indeed it is not unknown for then occasional aircraft (not Colt based) to make an approach in error to then operational RW 04 at Norwich. That is why there was a big. NOR on the threshold of RW 04 which as those of you old enough may remember had a long Sterile Area due to the Terminal being at the Southern end. The old KLM F27's used to land on Rw22 and basically coast into stand probably the shortest taxi anywhere from end of Runway to the terminal. Back at Norwich was a Marconi S511 with colour cathode ray tube displays but no SSR. There was a full sized radar approach console in the VCR which was used as an ATM when APR was at Coltishall. The Radar controller used to sit alongside the ADI ATCO and it worked brilliantly with the Situational Awareness and coordination of both controllers greatly enhanced. There was also a radar room downstairs with 2 operational radar postions but it really was shoeboxed sized and not utilised very much. When Coltishall closed in 2006 SSR data was imported from the Cromer radar. When the Tower furniture was replaced a proper radar room of decent dimensions was opened downstairs. At that point a proper ATM was fitted in the VCR and the radar postion in the VCR was closed. It is much mourned by the older controllers. That how things continued until about 3 years ago when the Marconi radar next to the tower was retired and replaced by a Thales digital search radar near the fire station on the southside of the airfield.