VirginBlue Roster

[WaldoPepper]

I have searched the archives, but would like to know what the Virgin rosters are like.

How many days off per month ?

How many overnights ? (2 or 3 nights in a row ?)

Duty times etc

Thanks

[Soup Dragon]

And whilst you're at it, what is the staff travel package like, if any?

[sprucegoose]

Hard to believe the archives are blank on this topic because it has been flogged to death in this forum. 8-12 overnights a month plus or minus. 50 - 80 hours of stick time. A few whingers but they are not the majority. Some key rostering issues are being addressed both as part of the new EBA and as an ongoing maturation of the growing VB crewing program. I have seen a lot worse...a LOT. Biggest problem is that some pilots want their cake and to eat it as well.

Staff travel allows ID90 on VB. I can't remeber who else. We have the usual access to Breakaway and Easyway industry discounted tickets as well. Life is good. Those that aren't happy wouldn't be happy anywhere.

[MIss Behaviour]

With all those overnights when does it become more viable for an airline to introduce other crew bases?

12 nights per nights X no. of pilots = lots of $$$ on overnight hotel accommodation.

[F27Friendship]

FYI, Virgin pays $85 per night for each crew member that overnights in Adelaide (Radisson). There is about 35-40 of them per night. 35 x $85 = almost $3K on a daily basis. :eek:

I don't think I would be crazy to assume that it may cost even more per night in an eastern states hotel, and more PAX at that too.

[Theo Racle]

The amount of overnights has nothing to do with crew bases. It has a whole lot to do with sector legths, turn around times and the strict CAO 48.1 adherence (ie no exemption). That is to say it is not possible to have all traingular routes to get people home everynight efficiently. Apart from efficient use of crew there are other benefits to DJ too, such as no problems with dissent between bases ie your base gets better/worse rosters than ours, centralised training and reserve coverage etc etc.

This sytem has its pros and cons but generally the majority are happy.

[WaldoPepper]

Thanks Sprucegoose for the info. Just another thing. Are the overnights concurrent, ie: do you go away for 4 nights, then 3 days off, or are the overnights all single nights away ? Or does it all just vary depending on the month ?

[AlbertRoss]

Don't take everything you read from Spruce as indicitive of how all the troops feel. Yes, there are some whingers in our midst, and despite most of us just doing our job and getting on with it, don't take our percieved silence to mean that everything is great. An old saying about Rose Tinted Glasses springs to mind when I read some of Spruce's comments regarding life at DJ, and knowing where Spruce was previously I'm sure he HAS seen worse, but there are A LOT of things that need attention at DJ with rostering being the biggest issue, by far.

[sprucegoose]

Well it varies a bit as one would imagine. For example I have just come home from a four day trip. I now have 2 reserve days and 2 days off followed by another 2 day trip. I think if one were to examine the rosters over the last few months you would see an increase in general in the length of a trip in terms of days away but an improvement in the number of days off in a row at home. Remember, we are only guarenteed 8-9 days off at home a month. There is a benefit to our pilot group, though some of the stodgy dudes won't see it this way, in adopting the exemption to CAO48. If we were able achieve greater utilization of a crew while they were on the road then there would be room to allow us more days off in a month at home. It is rather more complicated than just that but the productivity under CAO48 is needlessly **** poor.

As for other bases, well the OFFICIAL line seems to be none for now. We had a reasonabley good presentation some time back from the person in charge of rostering and the explanation revolved around the fact that just because you have, say, 65 crew in MEL every night and then decide to make MEL a base doesn't mean that those crew won't end up overnighting somewhere else in the system and so on. All the facts elude me now but the argument was credible. As far as I am concerned there is one base and if someone chooses to live elsewhere and commute well its their business. I've done it in the past and it's hard work. Easier to live where the crew base is. VB does have a handful of crews who were told in the very early days that they would be based in in SYD or MEL and it didn't work out that way. As far as I know they get what is called "commuters rights" and the company provides them with a seat between BNE and the city they were told they would be based in originally. I think thats pretty fair, probably 99.999999999% of all other airlines would have told them "tough titties". Still if you project out a few years to a company with 700 or so pilots and God knows how many cabin crew covering what will be quite an extensive network then another base isn't to hard to imagine.

[B772]

I understand there may be an agreement with the QLD Government for all crew to be based in QLD, something to do with the payroll tax exemption and other benefits.

In view of the rapid expansion by Virgin Blue I would expect to see some further crew bases at some stage in the future.

[sprucegoose]

I THINK that agreement was related to payroll tax consessions and it was for a limited period of time only.

Albert, you need to chill. Rome wasn't built in a day and if the idiot that left that unsigned letter in most of our pigeon holes last week is closer to the mark than I am then I pitty those of you that take THAT point of view and tone. I never said there weren't issues to be addressed at anytime, anywhere. But I see now some hothead beating a drum which seems altogether out of place and misguided and he hasn't got the balls to or the spine to sign the document. The colour of my glasses is my choice and I have far better things to get upset about in my life than some of the trivial issues here at VB that can be resolved with perseverence. Remember it is going to take a change to the CAO48 flight and duty time limits as they stand for us now to achieve any significant improvement in the state of the roster. The problem there is not all one sided. If you really want something to get worried about then check your "six" for a bloke with the initials CC.

[Capt Claret]

Hey Sprucie, I'm not on anyone's "six"! How'd I get dragged into this? :p

[sprucegoose]

If in doubt....run.

[THEFAARKAWE?]

Gday again Spruce,

I know the OFFICIAL line is that there is no plans for a second crew base at this time,however,many in your ranks have UNOFFICIALLY suggested that either MEL or ADL bases are on the cards,perhaps mid-late 2003.Any truth in this or purely speculative?

[sprucegoose]

I wouldn't know to be sure but ADL is the preferred option from he who runs the place. MEL is the preferred option from those who live there by choose and commute to BNE. ADL makes more sense because it is geographically central and allows crews to be flown north, east, west with the greatest chance of minimal overnighting as you can out and back to ADL on more trip pairings than MEL. That is entirely my opinion and not one that has been reflected from any other quarter. Also ADL is not a major hub for QF thus it allows VB a chance to be the dominant carrier in time from that port. Who knows. And to be honest those of us here at VB shouldn't be to worried about it either. I can just see all the MEL commuters now when ADL is opened up instead of MEL!

[Mark CRUISE]

Do you think Virgin will ever push for Sydney basings in the near future?

[sprucegoose]

I don't know. I rather think its to close to BNE to be effective economically given the way our route flying is structured.

[THEFAARKAWE?]

Cheers Spruce!:D

[B772]

Whilst in Aus I was told Corrigan and his people are starting to force change in Virgin Blue. The terminal issue is one example.

Corrigan apparently made public comment on the terminal matter through frustration and told the someone at Virgin Blue to get their act together and stop dicking around.

I understand the player in particular has his nose out of joint due to perceived (outside) interference with his play thing.

It would appear the honeymoon period at Virgin Blue is over with a few grumblings due to the growth pains. I guess the next stage is an AFAP campaign for a salary and conditions increase.

With the purchase of the ex AN National Operations Centre and associated facilities I guess MEL will figure sooner rather than later in the Virgin Blue expansion plans.

[sprucegoose]

There could be some truth in that B727......check yer six.

[Capt OverUnder]

Careful Sprucie you dont necessarily speak for the majority of DJ drivers, the unsigned letter you mentioned is very factual and you should not forget that when you vote on the EBA soon.:eek:

[sprucegoose]

Capt Overunder, I don't take my advise from people that won't stand up to be counted for what they say. The letter was full of points that were tenuous and arguable. If the individual concerned has a case then make it to my face. Whether or not I vote for or against the EBA will not be a product of that kind of rubbish. I make no claim to represent the "majority" but the majority of pilots I fly with are sick and tired of the whinging they have to put up with from the vocal few who feel they have an axe to grind with VB and an inability to move on from their past. Do you really think that a letter like that one is going to garnish a lot of sympathy from the pilot group as a whole? I don't and as such I am p!ssed off that it was distributed the way it was. If the author wants an audience then lets have a BBQ and a few beers and sit down and discuss the issues among ourselves as professionals instead of resorting to gutless scare mongering. Rostering and pay ARE big issues. They are not bad enough to go to war over.

[B772]

sprucegoose:

It is a fact of life that every airline has a few pilots who stand outside the square. I guess they are referred to as the vocal minority.

Care to elaborate and provide the former backgrounds or career paths of the pilots concerned so I have a better appreciation of the potential problems at Virgin Blue.

At one stage I considered applying for a position back in Aus but decided against it after talking with a few Virgin Blue mates.

[sprucegoose]

With all due respect 727, I won't taint a whole group by "guessing" about the perpetrators here. You are correct, there always has been and always will be those that are whiners. I see leadership as the effective tool in mobilising people in issues such as industrial relations and I'll take my hits on this one but peddling militant rubbish from a position of obscurity around VB or anywhere else is outdated and will be ineffective. The people concerned here need to stand and be counted for what they believe. I would listen then, and so would many others that binned the letter. We could then challenge and respond to our collective ideas and move ahead as a group instead of the tact(less) method being employed now.

[Dan Kelly]

Hmmm.........

Seems like the do-doos (refer previous post ... somewhere) might be getting a little deeper at VB. :eek:

[hmm...]

Does anyone know when the big move to the old Ansett terminal in YMML is due?

Seems to be taking a while to get in order........:confused:

[sprucegoose]

Well Dan, the do doo isn't any deeper than it was a year or two ago. It's just some of the people standing in it that have decided it's no good anymore. And some of it isn't but the method being used to address that issue won't work. My gripe here is that the individual concerned who sent us all that letter will do more to destroy the moral among pilots at VB than any EBA we are likely to see in the coming weeks. These guys already spend every second of their duty at work putting FO's and FA's completely off. Let's work smart as they say to get a better deal but whingers can go elsewhere as far as I am concerned.

[Hugh Jarse]

I wouldn't like to depend on the AFAP to do anything productive, based on their recent performance with their Regional customers. They have dropped the ball.

T minus ten, and counting...........

[Dehavillanddriver]

Regardless of the motives of the individual that wrote the "letter", the fact that it was nameless detracts from its credibility.

There may well be some very valid points, but equally there were some emotive generalisations that also detract from the message that I think it was trying to convey. The message is lost amongst a lot of people because of the method of transmission.

Sprucie - the BBQ and a few beers sounds like a good idea, we can get Vince McMann and the WWE to televise it as championship wrestling - the meeting of the minds will be an eye opener I suspect!

It is easy for all of us to armchair quarterback the negotiation process, but the AFAP are not winning themselves any friends by the lack of meaningful communication regarding the progress of the negotiations and neither is the Company going out of its way to foster goodwill - rumours about a certain employer putting the mockers on a mutually suitable agreement kill goodwill amongst the workforce quicker than a hand grenade.

I hope for all of our sakes we can get to a mutually happy position and do it soon.

[sprucegoose]

Funny thing Dehavillanddriver, I raised the issue of "non communication" during a group gathering one Friday and I got about twenty blank stares as if I had just caught a herd of deer in my landing lights. It seemed the concept was lost on many in the room and the point you make is entirely correct. At the very least the AFAP ahould have a substantive update on a regular basis on what the issues on the table are and where we stand in the negotiations. There is simply nothing but rumour and empty memo's. You gotta wonder if anyone actually has this bull by the horns.

But you know what? Its still a great place to work and I wouldn't be anywhere else.

[Kaptin M]

"deer in my landing lights"......not THAT original, Sprucie - it was used to define George Bush quite a while ago. (and very aptly, I thought).

"At the very least the AFAP ahould have a substantive update on a regular basis on what the issues on the table are and where we stand in the negotiations"......the AFAP has looked after its members fairly well to date. There will be some howls of disapproval wrt 1989, however pilots who were willing to accept PERSONAL responsibility for their actions, would agree that the Federation is democratically elected, guided, and led, by the members.

Virgin Blue is a young company in Australia - a seedling that needs nurturing - but guidance.
You have a good mix of the old, experienced Australian airline pilots mingled with the uninitiated "virgins".

SRB has (through the persuasion of a couple of ex-89'ers) been tempted to gamble more than most of us could ever dream of winning in a Lotto, on what might have been a third rate discount carrier.
By the luck of the gods, VB is NOW Australia's second domestic carrier.
And all of you have been carried along in the whirlpool!!

Give it time...........give HIM time.

But don't give up!!

[CallButton]

Spruce

Not knowing what the contents of the letter were, I can however appreciate that distributing it anonymously is a valid method of promoting discussion within the pilot group.

You are part of a pilot group that does not have seniority and thus are at the whims of the guys in charge. How does one get promoted there Spruce? (I direct this at you because you are obviously a management wannabee and you can't resist spouting the 'company line'. Maybe you suggest candidates...)

If this person was to put their name on this letter, what sort of management reaction would there be? Would he still have a job?

Your suggestion about a BBQ and beers is laughable. I can picture you tearing the heads off anyone suggesting that things aren't all fantastic (with a beer in hand) and telling them to go back where they came from (while surreptitiously recording their names and comments).

Your solution is to change the FDLs that you operate to. Have you started to investigate this? Is it possible (without a fatigue monitoring program)? I would have thought that a good start would have been to simply have some sort of bidding system for lines, trips, days off, whatever! Or do you just shoot off at the mouth and not bother doing some real work.

But you know what? Its still a great place to work and I wouldn't be anywhere else.

This is the sort of crap comment that stifles discussion. By implication, you are saying that the guys attempting to bring about change don't want to be there and are unhappy/disloyal. Does this apply to your union reps as well, as they try to bring about change?

I know plenty of VB drivers and they are all happy in general. But they all realise that the last 2 years have been a setting up process and that there is room for improvement. They expected it to occur with this EBA but now this does not seem to be the case. How about posting some details?

As far as I am concerned there is one base and if someone chooses to live elsewhere and commute well its their business. I've done it in the past and it's hard work. Easier to live where the crew base is.

Who gives a ****? Again you are raining on the parade of fellow workers who have a goal (to live where they choose) that may in fact SAVE the company money.

You are a rabid dog.

[Dehavillanddriver]

Crikey Callbutton - that was a bit uncalled for!

It would appear to me, as a person having read the letter that it was written by a person who is a Captain within the organisation.

If this is in fact the case, there is nothing to lose by plonking your name on the letter - you don't have to worry about not getting your command.

I don't think that the management are vindictive - it seems to me as a pilot in the organisation that if you meet the minimum requirements and maintain the required standard you will get your shot at command - and all in far less time than has been the norm for a number of years.

Callbutton - please tell us how you feel - as Sprucie has done - but play the ball not the man.

[Gnadenburg]

Can someone please print the letter?

I enjoyed the rebuke of Spruce.

We had dozens of similar at AN.

Their small personal gain through blind management allegiance better than the more difficult road of group progression.

Survivors though.

[sprucegoose]

Dear oh dear CallButton,

"Not knowing what the contents of the letter were......."

Exactly, so you have no idea.

"..at the whims of the guys in charge. How does one get promotted there Spruce? ( I direct this at you because you are obviously a management wannabe.......)"

Knocked that one back a long time ago Button. You still have no idea.

"If this person were to put thier name on the letter....."

Mate, they should never have written the letter in the first place. Signing it would be worse again. The BBQ idea was a figurative comment that REALLY meant we should be organising group discussion in an orderly sort of manner to let the collective opinions of our pilot group be heard and debated. Who cares if we have a BBQ or not. You really do have no idea at all. I won't pull anyones head off that stands up to be counted for their ideas. I believe we as a group have no place for an underground movement of anonymous diatribe which will do nothing at all but erode moral and much of which was rubbish.

A bidding system for trips, days off....I cut my teeth in this business under a seniority system so the idea isn't lost on me. But why don't you direct your question to the junior pilots in our company and ask them if they want the worst of trips and days off month after month. At least with our system as it is there is no bias towards seniority. We all get a reletively equal share of whats on offer. The only mouth shooting off here is yours and you have no frikin' idea at all.

"How about posting some details". About the EBA? There aren't any and thats the point D/driver and I made. Do you read and understand english?

And lastly as for bases and my preferences, I ain't raining on anyones parade. People can live anywhere they like. I have. It doesn't obligate the company to consider a base in that city and believe me if it saved money to do so then VB will have given it priority consideration. You obviously don't know much about the company if you missed that point. See, you haven't got a clue. I made mention of the few who were told one thing and had another happen. There are plenty of pilots and FA's here that took the job under NO pretense of a possible base anywhere other than BNE and as such shouldn't be whinging about the lack thereof. If it happens, great.

Woof.

[Theo Racle]

Callbutton,

now THAT's funny.... You seriously think that DJ wouldn't be champing at the bit to set up new bases now, if it was going to save the company bags of dosh?

Some people just can't get it through their heads that CAO48 is restrictive - not only on what a company can do but on flight crew lifestyle. Whatever the agreement is, you bet that the company will find a way to maximise crew efficiencies under THAT system. To get a better sytem everyone needs to sit down and table their concerns and come to a reasonable agreement. So far DJ management and crews have done this really well with both sides behaving like grown ups.

Problems occur when someone with a chip on their shoulder or an ego problem thinks they know how to do something or are simply more important than their colleagues and under the guise of helping them sets the management/crew relationship back to square one. Bad cliche actually because DJ management approached the unions for their input before any crews were even employed I believe.

Everyone at DJ does their best to ensure crews are treated fairly and lifestyle is protected. using the rules as they exist now. All the crews knew the EBA before accepting the position. Those that joined up thinking "ha ha give it a couple of years and we'll be able to claim QF/UA/AN pay and conditions" had better go looking elsewhere now please.

[Capt Claret]

Gees CallButton, you don't know Sprucie too well, do you!

[Long Prong]

Well said Theo Racle.

If only pilots had an understanding of CAO 48 (especially the three tour of duty rule) and how restrictive it is, then they may realise why they are on tours of duty for 3, 4 or 5 days at a time.

But then again, we are talking about PILOTS.

Come in Spinner.


:D :D :D :D

[Kaptin M]

My missus always washes our linen before she hangs it out for airing, and even then it's not in full public view!

[sprucegoose]

Oh c'mon Kaptin, you aren't gonna let a few skid marks make you squeemish are ya??

[IsDon]

Bloddy hell.

Any of you that are unhappy with your present lot are more than welcome to swap places with me.

I haven't flown, commercially, since 12 Sept 01 after spending 4 months training to fly the CRJ-200 and being cleared to line for a whole 3 weeks before crrrrrrump!!!!

I set myself the unofficial goal of being back doing what I love within 12 months of my last flight. I have 3 weeks left and its not looking good.

The final indignity is being told by the new owner that because I took a jet job, and worked my ass off to pass, I was surplus to requirements.

I know I'm not alone with a ****ty story, but what really gets up my nose are those who bleat, whine and complain because they are forced to live in what would have to be one of the best places on the planet doing the job I would crawl naked over broken glass to get back to. Or worse, accuse someone who is actually happy to tell the world that he enjoys what he is doing of being some sort of management sycophant.

Well done Spruce, I hope you continue to display your present attitude towards the job that you clearly love. I hope to join you there one day.

To the knockers, put your feet where your mouth is and send me line. Just tell me the start date and I'll be there with bells on to swap jobs with you. Nothing makes you realize how good you've had it till it's gone.

[sprucegoose]

Hang in there IsDon, there are a lot of CRJ pilots here at VB so your time may come. Good luck!

[AlbertRoss]

Knocked a management job back, did you Sprucie ?

[Gnadenburg]

IsDon

Don`t confuse whinging/whining with people improving their conditions through an EBA.

One day you may benefit.

CRJ conditions weren`t too bad.The result of pilots negotiating.

I here talk of Dragonair and CRJs.Hong Kong and C scale.Only street talk at the moment but if more concrete and your interested,get on the first plane to HK.

A proactive response your best defence against the postSept 11 pilot hoards.

[eisle s]

Well Spruce I'm sorry to inform you but your view on "The Letter" isn't shared by the majority of the pilot group as you think it is. The letter as mentioned was very well recieved by MOST that I have come into contact with. Whoever penned the letter was spot on in my opinion. Most points raised, you could not argue with, they were undisputed facts. Agreed that there was a bit of emotion involved but do you think that a 73 driver who carries 180 pax should get significantly less pay than a 717 or 146 driver who carries half the number of passenges? Your obvious love of the exemption indicates that you have been spending far too much time in the office. I dont care either way CAO 48 or exemption, but would like to see something in return for giving them what they want,(and 3% just doesn't cut it). It is a fact that the management pilots told the start up guys that the current wage would be raised to match industry standards when the new EBA is negotiated in 2 years. Well times up and they are not coming to the party and to me that would be a pretty bitter pill to swallow for those guys who were told by there mates one thing, and delivered nothing when the time comes. The company should try a little harder to negotiate a fair package for the pilots instaed of trying to screw us to line there own pockets.
Having said all this I still enjoy working for VB because of the great bunch af guys/girls that I fly with. Lets hope the mess is sorted ASAP:cool:

[sprucegoose]

My love of the exemption, if you could call it that, is based on the fact that I wish to fly more hours in a day at work than I currently do and to have more time at home afterwards as a result. I have worked under the exemption, unlike a lot of the objectors, and it can work well for us all if we achieve a protocol for the rostering which VB are willing, in fact have been forthcoming, to resolve.

As for the letter, I can't vouch for what some of the pilots were told when they were hired in the very beginning. I wasn't there then but they are definately a minority. My EBA makes no reference to, or implies, or insinuates, or leans toward suggesting that the conditions we ALL signed up to were in any way temporary. My EBA is exactly the same as every other pilot that has joined VB. Verbal deals are great but at the end of the day pardna you better get it in writing or it isn't worth the paper you wipe yer bum with. And that isn't altogether the fault of the people who made those remarks either.

All work place conditions are indeed negotiable and we should be negotiating for what we think we deserve but the tone of the letter will foster tit for tat ill will and given CC's presence in our company will only set us back in the longer term. I don't argue with the issues, just the method of attack. The approach I am angry about will fail. Period. Play smart boys, not dirty.

[Capt OverUnder]

Sprucie, lets face it "the letter" has promoted discussion amongst the ranks when it is needed and as you know hardline tatics get the troops spirits running as it has happened post AN falling over. By the way remember , the "original minority "you speak of trained most of the pilots in DJ and still do.:eek:

[The Puzzler]

Puzzle me this....

Back to the original thread, how many reserve days a month are you guys getting and how many of these do you get called out for?

Cheers:)

[eisle s]

Have got 6 days reserve this month and already had 3 without a callout. With a lot of training going on (both new captains and FOs) you tend to have a lot of reserves off.

[Interceptor]

Spruce.

You do not represent the majority view of the Virgin Blue Pilots as others have posted on this thread !!
Nor were you elected to be a spokesman on the issues affecting pilots at Virgin Blue.
Whilst everyone is entitled to an opinion, yours is just that, an opinion, and don't ever presume that the state of euphoria that you feel by working at Virgin Blue is shared by everyone else.
There are important issues to be resolved as the company evolves and the pilots' vote on the EBA will be an important step in the process.

[AlbertRoss]

Hear hear Interceptor. (Just bringing this back to the top)

[gaunty]

Geeez, going where angels fear to tread.

The flesh has barely fallen off the bones of Ansett and we're away again.

[Rubber Chicken]

Spruce, Mate, I think you speak well and truely for yourself. I have been with DJ for a hell of a lot longer than you and I can tell you now that I have only come across 1 person who agreed with you and after our conversation he had changed his mind. I don't know where you find all these people who agree with you. You must fly with a different bunch of F/O's. I have not come across 1.
You would have to be ex NJS. No doubt about it.
I don't normally Pprune but after reading all your dribble just couldn't stop myself. You have something to say about everything. Most things you have not idea about but talk about like you have the inside scoop! Well you don't. You don't speak for the majority but the vast minority. you are not involved in the EBA negitiations or have anything to do with setting up bases, or pay or conditions, or rostering, or or or or or. YOu are a line driver and thats it.

We have people in the company with 20 years rostering experience with AN and East West telling us that it can all be done under CAO48. Work harder on the days we fly. No single sectors, extra days off etc but rostering refuse to listen to them and will not allow them to prove it. Let them try and prove it first. If they succeed great. If they fail no harm done. We have been trying to get them in to at least try for 2 years now. Ask yourself, why won't the company allow them to have a go!!!.

Spruce you talk without all the facts.

And to that person who wrote that letter. I just WISH IT WAS ME!!!!!! Good on you.

Spruce, you will of course be turning down any extra money we get or any other benifits that are negotiated seeing that you so love our current EBA. No!! you are one of the snivilling tight arses who allow other to pay for the AFAP to negotiate the EBA and you just sit back and reap the rewards. For FREE!!! Why don't you go and negotiate you own EBA with DJ. There is nothing stopping you. Sign up for the dispensation, work for less, reject the increased bonus and any extra days off.

Bet you won't.

[Dan Kelly]

Gee it's great to see that PPRuNe has lost none of it's vitriol.

Having been a moderator, and having PPRuNed for quite some time I am quite au fait with Spruce's contributions over that past few years.

I have yet to see him claim to be a spokesperson for any group, be it VB or his former employer. He is opinionated, as am I, as are most PPRuNer's. However, he seems better able than some others to argue the point rather than the person.

So, why don't we get back to the topic, rather than trying to beat our chests, pretending to be big men?

[fj-100]

Are you guys using ops software that originated in NZ or did they bring software with them from the EU? If its NZ, the rostering is a low cost after thought tacked on to a low cost system in general, probably sold as "in developement". Just a thought......if it's true the rosters may be improved manually. Though a bit like trying to convince someone that it goes better with the autopilot turned off.

Exemptions..........yeah right.

[sprucegoose]

Thats an interesting suposition Rubber Chicken. Do you have a theory to put forward as to why....WHY....VB would pursue such an inefficient system of rostering when to do so would be rather costly in terms of the number of crew required to fly the line? When it could be done more efficiently under the current system?? As much as I love my job and the people I work with, probably even you if the truth be known, I don't see VB as a charitable organisation looking to sign up as many crews as they possibly can just to be nice. Tell us all your theory about why they would insist on using CAO 48 inefficiently and to the financial detriment of the company if there was a better way under that system. Is it just to annoy the pilots do you think? In your long and distinguished career in aviation have you ever been happy?

Not sure what NJS has to do with anything in this thread. I wonder what reaction I would get if I drew a long bow and made mention of the prior histories of the likes of you Rubber chook.

[Woomera]

Thanks Dan, you saved me the trouble.. :rolleyes:

[Capt OverUnder]

Sprucie , you choose to miss the chooks point. Rostering dept will not open their eyes to more efficient rostering that can be done under CAO48. I am not in the know myself , but have spoken to those with a lot of previous experience in the days before fancy computer software. Why not listen to their suggestions , there is nothing to lose and maybe something to gain for all concerned

[AlbertRoss]

My theory, Spruce, is that it is being blocked by the fat bloke and his stable of GA cohorts to protect their jobs. They have been insiting all along that they could do this job efficiently, and have been proving all along that they can't. If they allowed one of the guys in who knows what he's doing they figure they would be out of a job. So they employ another 'expert' from Ansett to oversee it all, yet he just sits there and says it can't be done.
They are playing politics.

[tightcannon]

To all the aspiring new hires at VB and to all of those who would love to join Vb I can only say this of the above ramblings. No matter who you fly with at VB everyone to a man/woman likes the job, everyone to a man/woman would like more money. the letter everyone is talking about contained some very real truths about work conditions and expectations of the early employee's, I have heard it was primarily aimed at the newer pilots in the company who may be willing to sign anything to keep the peace. This is not a reflection on the newer guys and girls just consideration that they might not be as well educated about the EBA process as the rest of us.
hey Sprucie I like your enthusiasim but you really need to calm down a little. At last count i heard we were up to 300 pilots so maybe rather than airing our dirty washing we should try and ensure that we make up for others lack of professionalism with our own.

[Theo Racle]

Rubber chicken, Capt Overunder et al.

You guys really are the bee's knees... Firstly, go away and sit down with the a copy of the rules - ie the EBA in one hand and CAO48 in the other - and read them until you understand them. Now I know you busy pilot types don't have six months to spare ('cos it appears that's how long it takes you read that many words in a row and come away with some comprehension!) but please try.

When you feel you do understand it then please make let it be known that you are ready to go in to HO and give it a go. Guess what.... you won't be the first. There have been at least three "I can do it better" guys come in spend a day working on pairings with the rostering dept. Without exception, they all threw their hands in the air saying " Too hard!", "Stupid system anyway!" and my favourite "Oh, I've just forgetten I have an urgent appointment that I have to rush off to" - which translated means "Oh yeah guys - I see what you mean"

I speak to heaps of guys about this and unfortunately quite a number ex ansett and the Qf group have no idea about the rules they operate under actually are - particularly the three day tour of duty rule.

As stated before, if you have an idea DJ management are definately willing to listen - you just need to come up with something that works not this neverending mantra of "I'm a pilot I must be getting screwed"

[tightcannon]

Hey Theo Racle

You would find it a little easier to roster and find the troops happier when the following questions are answered
1. when will there be new bases
2. You were promised a new rostering system 10 months ago where is it.
3. when will you get more help and less transfers of experienced personell across the room or to other departments.

Good luck mate but instead of trying to blame the whole thing on pilots, maybe you need to learn that sometimes a workman can blame his tools and ask for new ones. Tis easier to cut down a forrest with a chainsaw rather than a teaspoon, even if the teaspoon is more comfortable.

[Rubber Chicken]

Theo,

you sound like a man from rostering. I do believe that as I said before 2 people have been trying to get in and help one with 20 years of rostering experience but after 2 years, yes 2 years still are being kept out. We (Pilots) trust these 2 and if they came out and said well boys it can't be done under CAO 48 we would be happy to look at something else but while they are not given the opportunity to at least try, thats when we smell a really really big rat. What have you got to loose. If you are so sure they will fail, well they look like fools and you look like the hero.
I think they have been kept out because they can make it work and may make other look like fools. That is all we have been asking for the past 2 years. Yes that NZ program is not worth the floppy disk it came on but when we started up it was ok for the number of pilots we had at the time. New software has been purchased but won't be running until march 2003. What we are saying is that the proplem may lie with the way the blocks are produced in the first place and not with CAO 48. I spent many years working under both and I know which one I prefer.

[Capt Claret]

Rubber Chook,

That We (Pilots) trust these 2 and if they came out and said well boys it can't be done under CAO 48 we would be happy to look at something else .... seems to me to indicate that you speak for all the VB pilots. Is this so?

Why only trust these 2? Why not trust the VB schedulers that are telling you it can't be done?

ps. Don't work with VB so don't know the nuts and bolts about the issue, but agree with Spruce's logic, why would the Co do it the hard and unproductive way?

[Rubber Chicken]

It's not the company telling us that it won't work it is rostering telling to company who intern tell us. The compnay believe what they are told by the man in charge of rostering. Why not trust them, well lets see.
You have 2 people who have years and years of experience telling us that it can be done. The current head of rostering was a radio operator not so long ago with a small SAAB airline. If he admits that the problem is with him then he does himself out of a job. All we are asking for is the chance to be proven wrong. If we are wrong then no harm done. we all look like fools and then we sit around and talk about alternatives. These people have said they will go in, in their own time and run a parallel roster using their methods. if it is better great. if not, like I said all that happened is thatthey have given up a perfectly good day off for nothing and walk away and go to the pub for a beer. No harm either way. Why not listen and take advice from people who did this for a living for 20 years. At the end of the day we all want the same thing. Efficient rosters. We win and they win. But before we go and sign our lives away lets at least try and make work what we have now. If it doesn't move to plan 'B'.
Why is this so difficult to understand.

[24]

Firstly "Go Theo!"

Secondly, Rubbie it is obviously a long time since you've been through the HQ of DJ and found out who is who and what job they currently do! I would strongly suggest that you pop your head in some time, even better why dont you get your 2 "Hot Shots" together and go through the normal process of speaking with your line manager or even your Cheif pilot and put your case forward to them. Try to approach it with a clear head as it is becoming very clear to alot of viewers that you are a bit short of that six pack!
I know your response will be some what heated and charged by emotion but............[edited by "24"]
Good Luck.....:D

Hell's bells, I think we could all do with a stiff drink!

[bonvol]

In the good old days the pilots at AN/EW/TN etc did build the rosters and presented them to the company. The pilots could hardly whinge they were no good as they built them.

Building good blocks is a bit of an art and a sound knowledge of all the rules is paramount, as Theo says. If the company will give you the pairings then you have a chance to demonstrate the skill of the 2 who reckon they can do better. There is some serious rostering talent within the VB pilot group including an ex MSC. If he is happy with the rosters then I would guess they are ok?

[Rubber Chicken]

Yawn!!!

The two hot shots as you call them have been throught all the correct channels including that of the flight ops manager. All of whom have promised access the rostering and the chance to show alternate methods to those who are currently rostering or who were rostering at the time. 2 years later, still waiting. As for having a look in VB HQ I spend quite a lot of time in there and am more then aware of all the recent and not so recent changes that have gone on in various departments, not just rostering. I have no doubt that rostering would have to be one of the hardest areas to work in. You will never make everyone happy. We will have the new rostering program up and running soon. Let wait and see how it goes before rushing out to sign for a dispensation. The company has outgrown of NZ program and the rostering staff are flat out just trying to keep it running let alone make it run efficiently.
What we are talking about goes back 2 years when our NZ program was handling thing ok and the problem was in the block building. This is not a new issue. It has been fought out for 2 years to have thing changed. The suggestion was made to have these '2 hot shots' go in and run a parallel roster in their own time to prove that the problem lay in the block building and not CAO48. This had the approval of the Chief Pilot but has still not occurred.
Do I have to draw you a picture? It really isn't that difficult to grasp the concept.

[sprucegoose]

Part of the problem Chook, lays in the fact that the commercial dept., where the scedules are programmed each month, don't pass the final pairings on to rostering until as late as the 20th of the month. Given the very short space of time then available to build a roster for a constantly growing group of pilots makes the task of finding the best combination of pairings for the roster a very difficult task. The problem is exaserbated by the fact that the pairings do not remain the same from one one month to the next. So what was put together in May is useless in June and to analyse it as such is a waste of time. I can't vouch for the lack of access to the pairings in any given month but I am fairly sure they are not confidential in nature. I could walk in there and get a copy of them so I would assume your guru's could as well. My question remains unaswered. Why would anyone in the flight ops area tolerate such a blatent waste of money if a better solution was attainable. I do know they look at the pairings and all the associated whinging that accompanies them each month. It is short sighted and ignorant to believe that VB are willing to continue wasting money on inefficient crewing practices simply to protect a job here or there. They could save a ton more money by flying the same monthly roster with, for example, five less crews. Don't forget either, CAO48 will disappear in the not so distant future and will cease to be relevent from a regulatory standpoint. The change will occur whether we vote for it or not. Why not get proactive and work on that change now.

Overunder, I am not in the "whole" know either and I can't see why the ideas expressed by those with so much experience may not have been taken aboard. I am sure the truth in the matter lays somewhere other than the stories filtering through the crew room. There is certaintly no lack of opportunity to raise these issues in a forum every fortnight. Why not get in there and press the case. I haven't heard anyone speak up yet and put a credible argument forward. All these so called verbal agreements seem to happen when nobody is looking or listening.

[Kaptin M]

If what you say is correct, Spruce it sounds as though your Commercial Dep't needs a rocket, or the block building and bidding should be held off until nearer the end of the month.
It would seem that VB are having to carry extra crew, to cover the shortfall between Scheduling being advised of the ACTUAL pairings for the forthcoming month, and their block building.

BTW, Sprucie invest in a spellchecker! ;)

[bonvol]

As usual, commercial screwing up the operation. When will they ever learn :D

After being through all that RC with no result, time to give up, no one in authority is interested by the sounds.

However, if you can get DJ to employ a red hot rootin' tootin' rostering man then find out where the famous "Clam" of ANSW is these days. He'll want some incentive though. Offer him F/A scheduling and he'll work for zip!

If you can't get him, poach Dale from QF, he'll liven the place up ;)

[Kaptin M]

Dale from QF...as in Dale from ANSW, eons ago??

Now THOSE guys were Masters of the Art of Rostering. And all without the fancy wiz-bang confusers!!
Talk about flexibility of operations.

As a matter of fact, anyone who can remember the schedulers of pre-computer days (and the Woolies checkout operators, before bar codes were introduced) will recall a faster, more efficient, less costly operation than has been forced upon us.
How many F/O's today know HOW to calculate a TOD at (say) 37,000'?
Betcha at LEAST 70% rely on the FMC.
Most will blindly follow the PFM figure - and perhaps scheduling could also do with a little knowledge of "tweeking", when the parameters are obscure.

[sprucegoose]

We don't bid for our rosters Kap and they have to be out by the 24th of the month. I don't think many people would be happy if they came out later as they already complain how late the 24th is. See, you just can't please some people any of the time. :rolleyes:

[bonvol]

Yes Kap, the one and the same Dale.

These days, with all the "advances" made with computers the pilots are worse off than they were 20 years ago. In DJ, with commercial delivering the flying so late you haven't got much of a chance to avoid chaos.

Still, the whole game has deteriorated from nearly every perspective so crook rostering is par for the course.
Getting paid in the modern age of aviation has become a significant perk!

[CallButton]

Are you telling us that commercial finalise their schedules 10 days before they operate them??!! Doesn't allow much time for advance selling of tickets does it...

"Yes we will sell you a ticket for next Thursday. It will leave sometime between 9 and 10. We haven't finalised it yet.":eek:

[sprucegoose]

I have no idea what the actual process is Cally. I have been sitting in rostering when a list of pairings was handed down on or about the 10th of a month and rosters were started based on this but the heads that be made it clear they were not "signed off" on just yet so changes could take place. And indeed they did then and do now right up to as late as the 20th of the month. I guess with new aircraft arriving which have to be slotted in the system and minor schedule changes designed to maximise aircraft utilisation things just end up in a pile towards the end of the month. Belive me the problem has been addressed between the two departments and supposedly the line of communication has started to improve but I am not sure how much better it is yet. I know absolutely nothing about how all this fits in with advance ticket sales. Just some more of that good old PFM.

[Ustar]

Capt OverUnder, AlbertRoss and Rubber Chicken you should not believe everything your fellow pilot fraternity states.

Approximately 8 months ago, two so called gurus of rostering came forward from your ranks (VB Tech Crew) to give advise and show VB rostering how it is done. Unfortunately, your 2 representatives lasted only approximately half a day as they realised they were well out of their league. (True fact, sorry it hurts)

To the guys and girls of VB rostering I take my hat off to you, as I know it is not an easy job to do. The all too common occurrence of publishing schedules with two weeks notice (instead of the required 4 weeks) only provides rostering staff with an inadequate two weeks to complete rosters. Therefore it is extremely difficult to accommodate all crew roster requests and allocation of training etc. Unfortunately, crew constantly complain and whine as they only appear to consider their own personal needs. Rostering staff NEVER receive praise or thanks for approving roster requests. The only time crewmembers contact rostering staff is to unleash invective and demand reasons as to why their requests weren’t met. Once again we are talking about the small minds of certain people!!

However, I was recently fortunate to obtain a copy of the so-called Black Letter that everybody is referring to. There may be a slight percentage of truth to the letter, but the rest of it is CRAP. Once again we see the pilot fraternity crying foul and complaining about the work conditions. We all knew what the conditions were before we were employed either as aircrew or ground crew etc. Nobody forced you to sign the EBA at the start of your employment with VB. If you are so unhappy, why don’t you pack your bags and crawl back under the rock from where you came. Have you ever sat down and thought about the other departments within VB maybe getting screwed as well? Like I said before we all knew of the conditions before we started with VB.

What more can I say, we are talking about whining Tech Crew. Grow up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

CRAP NEVER

[Sir Topham Hatt]

"Have you ever sat down and thought about the other departments within VB maybe getting screwed as well?"

Oh Lord!
Ustar, you are not refering to the fact that you too may be one of these poor under paid employees at VB are you?
It seems that alot of troops at VB are beging to wish for a brighter star, is it not all that you thought it would be or as your advertising shows just another circus?
Alot could be said for the number of you who pledged their allegiance to the Virgin banner, and your constant complaining between each other. Sounds like AN just got another name!
You should all be greatful for being given a job and an oppertunity! Why not work together and create an even better empire than the one you came from or is it true, the majority at VB have never worked in aviation before?
If so heaven help the Aussie punter who places thier life in your hands!
:eek:

[24]

USTAR,

"STANDARDS! STANDARDS! please":D

[Put me down sick]

Yawn.....

I think someone got it right along the way?!
Alot needs to be said for your Scheduling Department! It would be very difficult for anyone to complete a roster with less than 2 weeks before publication date! Correct me if I am wrong but 8 months ago didn't DJ only operate a schedule with about 10 aircraft? Now how many? How many rostering staff were there 8 months ago and how many pilots did they have on the books to put into a roster? If the growth of the aircraft is anything to go by and the same growth obviously has to be matched by the pilots, so how many rostering staff are there now?.....Evidently....now you guys have 24 aircraft to play with, and around 300+ pilots to crew them but the rostering staff have only 3 on the team an increase of 1! So much for a fair go! If these 2 Hot Shots couldn't work out a better way to do things 8 months ago, how the hell are they gonna have a better idea now?!
let you drips in on an idea.....get your heads around committing to a schedule and committ to that schedule for a period of 3 months! Obvious constraints are assosiated with this but forward planning would outway the problems that you are being faced with. You cant come back Spruce with crap about aircraft deliveries, someone there must be signing the leases on these babies! Nor can you come back with crap about maintenance issues regarding major checks, these too are also planned! Theo, Ustar you blokes seem like bright sparks, well you claim to be anyway, surely you guys can suggest how many crew you need to make it work! I could go on but thats what you guys are getting paid to do there!
Hell, doesn't anybody talk to one another at Virgin Blue?
The art of speaking negatively about other departments within your own organisation can be seen as unprofessional boys! What are you doing there?
I will be waiting for your emotional charged replies!;)

[sprucegoose]

Well Put me down sick, you need to have some inside knowledge to pass some of the comments you have made and expect to be taken to seriously. Sure aircraft deliveries are planned way in advance. PLANNED being the operative word. What actually happens in some cases is that new aircraft don't leave Seattle or wherever they are coming from exactly on the day they were PLANNED to and then most of our aircraft seem to go through Christchurch for winglet modifications these days and they don't always get done by the PLANNED day and so a schedule that is PLANNED in advance around an aircraft delivery may just have to be rearranged at late notice to accomodate these UNPLANNED delays. And believe it or not UNPLANNED delays occur with scheduled maintenance as well. It's all part of life in the aviation universe.

As for speaking to each other at VB it goes reletively well considering the magnitude of growth (something like 120%) in fleet size and changes within the various departments that have occurred in the last year or so. I have seen a lot worse at places where nothing has changed in years.

[Sharfted Groundhog]

:eek:

I've just read this thread from start to finish and wow! What started off as a really simple question has turned out a whole heap of dirty washing..... Now, I wonder where I've heard this all before....

Ansett Australia, Tasman Pacific NZ, Air NZ, Qantas, etc, etc.:rolleyes: Wonder if there's any common factor in the current state of those airlines and the people who work in them......

Life's crappy in any job; that's a given. The trick is to make the best of it, get on with it and get over it! Remember what it was like to get paid REALLY bad money when you were instructing??? Remember all those REALLY crappy nights flying cargo up and down the country in thunderstorms in a light piston twin? Think really hard and I'm sure all those memories will come back.

This forum is about posting OPINIONS, and I believe that the majority of people do exactly that. Don't beat them up for doing what the forum is designed to do. I feel that some of the posting authors need to go away and either go for a very long walk, or have a few stiff drinks to calm their tempers, nerves or general disposition! ;)

The only rule of thumb that I think we all have to remember is that there are alot of us out there that got shafted recently; either by AN Australia or TP NZ - and who are still looking for jobs. We are experienced, good pilots who are still out of work because of circumstances out of our control. If things are that tough in VB (or any other airline for that matter), come and swap jobs.... I'm sure pouring concrete for 8 hours a day followed closely by a 6 hour shift at the local supermarket packing shelves will readjust your attitude towards the industry and job you took on a very long time ago because of the love of the whole package!

Take a very long look at life in general, guys and girls - bet you five bucks it's not that bad..........

[I'm with stupid]

My 2 bobs worth;

The CAO48 exemption I used to work under gave Ops the opportunity to shaft you wherever and whenever it was convenient for them, because of the long duty periods and short rest periods available to them. They will always take the easy way out and a rostering protocol is just that, a protocol, it is not set in stone and the 48 exemption always ends up being the law.
With all due respect to Spruce, he, unlike myself, worked in a base that had very few different flights and therefore less scope to be screwed around.( actually, 3 from memory )
The other thing about current CAO48 exemptions is, that bunch of softcox at CASA have relaxed the need for a Fatigue Management system, so you become your own fatigue manager after you decide that 5 pre 0500 starts is enough, when they throw in a 11 hour duty to top it off on the 6th day. Only problem is you then have to use a sick day or go to work dog tired.

Oh yeh, and, what Gaunty said.

[Clearance Clarance]

The CAO48 Exemption is only worth considering if you get paid overtime above a certain number of hours. Typically 55 hrs/mth.

With no overtime payment, you can (will) work your ring off, to the employers advantage, for no extra pay.

Why do that, when some Australian pilot's are already among the lowest paid in the world?

[thebonecollector]

If you read the definition of "roster" in the VirginBlue EBA then be rest assured that VB have nothing that could seriously be called a roster. Trouble is that VB can't accept any constructive critic over their operation and believe me one could fill hours doing just that.
The old line sprucegoose uses about things are changing is not unlike old smelly cheese. Fact is crewing use as a rostering tool perpetual excuses for not rostering the way a bona fide airline does. As for 50-80 hours per month.....get real spruce. That may appear on the planned roster if you happen to have 2 weeks leave, however you can fully expect cancelled leave and a REQUIREMENT to work on days off when called by crewing. Don't forget the cancelled leave during the "CRISIS" raby jumped up and down about, turned out to be one flight per day to Mt Isa, hardly justification for cancelling all leave, again another rostering tool to get the flights covered as a result of insufficient crews due to unwillingnes to put hand in pocket and employ the necessary pilots. As for CAO 48 being inefficient.....take your hand off it spruce. The boffins on level 12 where shown by those with more than 5 minutes real experience how to roster effectively under 48, problem was too many ego's hurt as the so called experts in commercial where shown to be what they really are.....spurts.
For those wanting to pursue a career at VB be warned...its no career but a good place for jellybacks, losers and old has beens.

[oldhasbeen]

HEY!!!
At least the weather's nice!!

[mauswara]

Hey --bone------, thanx for the insight at VB , w/out the b/s!seems to be a lot of HYPE surrounding this outfit. i'm an old loser myself, but not too sure about the "jellyback". Confirm this is a close relative of the sycophant (or to put it more crudely, the ass-licker! The incidence of this species seems to be on the increase in todays industry.

[sprucegoose]

Leave wasn't "cancelled". People were asked to volunteer.

The rostering protocol needs to be embodied in the EBA and then it will be binding....as much as anything else is in an EBA.

Bonecollector, I am quite sure nobody has come out of the woodwork and shown anyone a better way to do the rostering. I belive you are being misled by someone. Are you confusing "help" with someone that barges in to the rostering area and demands to know why their roster doesn't contain all of their personal requests and points out how THEIR roster could have been better suited to their personal needs?

[shakespeare]

Settle down BONER.

You have obviously had a rough ride at Virgin. Yeh things have a long way to go to be spot on (although they will never be spot on for some, no matter how many balls the boss juggles at once). The airline is only 2 years old and growing reasonably fast. That is not an excuse that will last much longer but I think we should get things in some kind of perspective mate.

I'm not all that old, I can squat a couple of hundred kilos in the gym, so I suppose that means I am not a "jelly back", so I guess I must be a loser. I'm a loser flying brand new a/c all over the easiest country in the world to fly in. I have very few hassles with bad weather, most of the guys I fly with are not out to kill me (i.e. they have a reasonable amount of experience) and the chicks are gorgeous albeit a little full of themselves at times. Jaysus life is pretty bluddy tough jack!

Yeh I want more money and a better roster. I will save my protestations/inputs for the EBA meetings. If I like what they are putting forward I will vote YES, if not I will vote NO! Even a moron like me can understand that simple concept. Virgin is still evolving and has a way to go yet but give it some time mate. Relax, get laid, do something enjoyable. Please don't take your pent up frustration to work.

Things will eventually get much better if we are half smart about this.

To all you people considering applying to Virgin. I would like to give you another perspective in addition to the above.

1. New a/c. i.e Brand new!!
2. Most of the people you fly with are great both on the flight deck and after work in the pub for a beer.
3. Generally hassle free weather.
4. Money is average.
5. Rosters need a bit of work but are getting better.
6. Tons of potential for further growth both here and o/s.
7. All in all not a bad job.

Hope that provides a little balance.

[I'm with stupid]

Gees shakespeare, a moron and a loser ?, you really have some self esteem issues :p

It's easy for op's/rostering staff to cry " whining pilots " when for the most part, they know exaclty what they are doing, work wise, each week. Try having any sort of life when your roster gets changed significantly and often, and you may get an idea why some of that whining happens.

[CallButton]

Are you having EBA meetings? What input is being put forward? How does a vote work on input or did you mean that you will vote 'No' for the EBA final draft if you don't like it?

If it is voted down do you know what the implications are?

For the company - status quo.

For the pilots - status quo (without any payrises, even CPI).

Forewarned is forearmed.

[KaptinZZ]

Shakespeare,

I note your post, and take issue with a couple of points.

Squat a couple of hundred kilos?? bull****!!

Money is average?? Average for third world maybe.

They may be a great bunch at work, and even after work to have a beer with? On those salaries, you can't afford to drink beer, especially at somewhere like the Radisson.

The thing I do agree with is the point on the tea ladies. Hostitutes don't change the world over - they're all full of themselves, and think they're something they're not - they do, after all, only serve the drinks.

[Dehavillanddriver]

For Kristsakes...

We, particularly Captains, are in the top 5% of wage earners in Australia.

You want to talk about 3rd world wages - find out what the guys flying 737's for Polynesian and Air Pacific are earning! - and then take the tax and accom out of the equation - they can't afford to drink at the bar.

Would I like more money - yes.
Do we deserve more money -yes
but are we the poor downtrodden - hardly.

You want crap money go and fly in GA and see what crap really is.

Get some reality into this discussion

[Gnadenburg]

We Captains

Don`t pull the old Go Back To GA line,entirely inappropriate for a professional airline pilot.

Check the ATO figures too.Don`t forget this is not telling the real story of wealth in this country-cash econony and small business etc.

60 odd K,20K borrowed for an endorsement is a raw deal for an F/O.Your conditions the lowest of Australian RPT jet pilots by a country mile.I`m glad you feel warm and fuzzy compared to South Pacific airlines.

VB has a bright future,VB pilots deserve a comparable wage.

Some say it`s totally appropriate that VB pilots entered the stage undercutting the industry only to now find,as evidenced by this thread,they maybe stuck with lowly conditions.

I still say good luck,as your wages affect us all.

[airbrake42]

It sounds very much like the honey moon is over. Pretty girls with attitude and shiney brand new jets, which after a week are old again, means **** when you compare it to life style.
The money is OK if you compare it to a school teacher BUT a school teacher doesn't spen 13 nights a month away from their family, simchecks and medicals every yr!!

A QF baggae person earns more than a VB F/O and almost as much as a VB Captain. A QF F/A earns more than a VB F/O.
I don't think a pohm witha big mouth ( and a billion $$$ in his pocket) will be able to convince you guys that you should take it up the arse, for the good of the company for too much longer even spruce duck has too wake up and smell the roses sooner or later and realise that life style is more important than sucking up to the boss for recognition and get a real job or demand real conditions than his current one!

VB has catered for a bunch of out of work ANSETT pilots, pilots who want to return home, GA guys and dreamers who initially would accept these conditions. I don't think a $50 bonus at the end of the year, whoopy, makes up for the $100,000 below equivalant airlines year round. I can't see you guys accepting those condition for the rest of your lives. You may as well be O/S earning good money as spending 13 days a month in ****ty little hotels for 10 hrs and then back in the jockey seat.

Time will tell

[sprucegoose]

airbrake42

Sucking up to the bosses? Really.
Oh, and where did I say I thought we didn't deserve more money? A lot of you jokers need to get off the hooch before you respond to a thread. If you can't accurately state a fact when it is all here is "writing" it's no wonder some of you have off the wall ideas.

And as for the pretty girls, well a FEW have attitudes. Most are very pleasant. There are more "attitudes" from pilots on THIS thread alone than in the whole FA department at VB.

As for my lifestyle you're right, it is important. My lifestyle is fantastic thank you very much and you would be the last person on earth to make that judgement on my behalf. Funny how you seem to be so much more miserable than I am!

[eisle s]

F/O's at VB on 60K, what a load of crap. My income as an FO with VB for the past 12 months was 91K, with 12K of that tax free. Hardly poverty stricken:(

[Exotic-Temptress]

It's been a while since my last post, but it's nice to see nothing has changed.

Skimming through a few of these posts, i'm assuming the majority were posted by the male species...yes????

Well guys this amount of biting and scatching is kinda yukki.

In my opinion, i appreciate the opinion of SPRUCEGOOSE. and his very diplomatic opinion. It is his perogative to think what he thinks and express it in ways he prefers

I know there have been a majority who have debated with him regarding some ''letter''(which im dieing to know the contents)...but he is a minority who appreciates what he has and where he's at. Lets face it guys, you are living in your home country in a job thats very hard to obtain...why don't you be grateful or move on, and allow the others who would sell their soul to be in the seat that you're given.

[Gnadenburg]

E-T

Your too beautiful for us.Wasn`t you at Ninbin today reading Tarot?

Traditionally in airlines, 5% of pilots do 90% of the fornicating.These 5% giving pilots a terrible reputation amongst the Flight Attendants.

Same same at Virgin Blue?

If so is Sprucey in the top 5%?

[Exotic-Temptress]

Gnadenburg....

You seem like you're in need of a cold shower.
S** is on the mind my dear???

So people of opposite gender cannot be appreciative of each other without having some kind of intimacy??.....another sad case!

[I'm with stupid]

KaptainZZ, when Shakespeare said 200kgs, he was being humble, I would'nt upset him if I were you.

eisle s, 91k minus 12k allowance = 79k, are you a check effo or something?

[Woomera]

And so we get to the magic "ton" at 9783 views not bad at all.

It's time to go.............. "Virgin Blue Roster"

Feel free to start again.