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Alaskaman
9th Feb 2020, 21:58
Hello Maintenance experts,

I'm trying to find information on the "Temporary Permit to Fly" that is issued by the aviation authority to allow an aircraft that, while not technically within the definition of airworthy as put forth by ICAO Annex 8, is considered safe for flight. In the US, we can gain approval, via OpSpec D084, to authorize these flights on our own while in US airspace. All of the information I have found on the CAA website pertains to EASA or UK aircraft, and I have not been able to find anything for foreign aircraft as I have with other countries, including the UK OT.

Anyone from the UK have a lot of experience with these? I'm primarily trying to determine if a US operator such as ourselves, would be able to apply and obtain a continuing authorization for these while in UK airspace. I doubt it, but wanted to see if there is anyone here that works in that area.

Yes, I have reached out to the CAA, but sometimes the replies are understandably delayed.

Also, I found this statement in the CAP 733

"Foreign registered aircraft operating on airworthiness documents which are not ICAO compliant will also require the permission of the CAA to fly within UK airspace; if granted, this permission will be contained in a ‘Certificate of Validation’, details of which can be found in Article 9B of the ANO"

I can only find Article 9B in the ANO 2000. How do I determine which ANO is current? It seems that the 2016 one is most current, but then this reference to 9B disappears. Also, It appears that the UK has a "national permit to fly' which appears to be used by non-EASA aircraft, but it too doesn't seem to apply for what I'm looking for, as I see it mentioning ultralights, ex-military, gyro copters etc.

Thank you in advance for your input,

AM

Genghis the Engineer
10th Feb 2020, 14:36
I was one of the authors of the first edition of CAP733, and am reasonably familiar with both UK and USA regulations.

Glad to help if I can, and I think I can see a way through, but could I ask - what's the purpose of the flight, and what is it (or class and MTOM if you don't want to be too specific).

Please don't PM me (the box is always full), but you can email me via PPrune, or I'll put this thread on subscribe so I'll see anything you post here.

G

Alaskaman
10th Feb 2020, 17:21
Hi Genghis,

Thanks so much for the reply. I was confident I could find the horse's mouth on this here!.

This is mainly an academic situation. We don't have a ship needing this right away, but would like to get the procedures, contacts and terminology correct so that when we do we don't have to spend a week researching. For argument's sake, let's use a US registered. transport category aircraft, B767/A350 type that needs to depart UK, enter UK or overfly UK for a maintenance item that is outside the MEL. We can use for example something as simple as a missing Inflight Medical Kit or a dent that is 1/8" outside of limits requiring a ferry to repair. I assumed it would be a temporary permit to fly, but as I worked through the regulations and the form, found out quickly this was for EASA or UK aircraft only. Nothing for foreign registered. I then thought I would fall under the Annex II definition of Non-EASA, but that appears to only apply to vintage, homebuilts, ultralights, etc. Nothing relating to foreign register.

I then thought perhaps I was after a 'National Permit to fly", but that was a dead-end also.

Also, this is my first experience with UK regulations. I thought the regulatory websites were actually well done, but I was confused as to which ANO is current. My current belief is that ANO 2016 is the current document, with amendments dated later (2018,2019). The CAP733 referenced "ANO 9B", which I found to be in the ANO 2000, but then did not discuss 'Certificate of Validation', which it appears I need by then no reference anywhere else.

So, I think you can see my confusion :).....

I am very very grateful for any clarity you can provide. Bottom line, I'd love to know "what form do I fill out, who exactly do I send it to and how long does it take to get approval."

Thanks and Cheers!

AM

Genghis the Engineer
10th Feb 2020, 18:18
Hmm, there's not an instant "fill out this form, wait 5 days" answer to that, but give me a day or two to scratch my head and I'll try and say something coherent. I can certainly see your issue.

G

happybiker
11th Feb 2020, 15:55
Alaskaman: I think what you are looking for is a UK Air Navigation Order Article 33 Permission to carry out such a flight

Take a look at this and see if this helps. https://www.caa.co.uk/Commercial-industry/Aircraft/Airworthiness/Exemptions/Foreign-exemptions/Apply-for-an-exemption/

This page provides information on how the CAA may accept applications for and issue Exemptions and Permissions concerning overflight of aircraft with non ICAO compliant registrations and airworthiness certificates.

Genghis the Engineer
12th Feb 2020, 09:30
HB has, I think, pretty much nailed it, with the exception that your issue is the lack of a valid CofA. The Article 33 permission is clearly where you sit, but there will doubtless be a requirement to satisfy CAA that the flight is fundamentally safe.

I think that what I would do, in your position, is set up a 3-way conversation with your friendly neighbourhood FAA FSO, and whoever mans the desk handling those at CAA Gatwick, and get an in principle agreement that FAA will issue a OpSpec D084 temporary permission, or possibly a letter saying "if it was in the USA, then we would" that the CAA would consider that as acceptable in part of the supporting evidence for issue of the article 33 exemption.

UK AIr Navigation Order is, incidentally a bit of a legal headache these days, because so much of UK aviation legislation has been handed over to EASA these days - for example with air navigation rules now being incorporated into EASA SERA. It looks to me that the UK at the end of this calendar year will leave EASA, but aim to remain in close regulatory formation with it. What will that actually look like? Goodness knows, but I'd be inclined to get your hoops in a row early, then even if you need to renegotiate in 2021, you'll be doing so on the basis of precedent.

Do be aware also that CAA are VERY busy right now with the whole Brexit thing, so getting a meeting can be an enormous struggle, but best of luck.

G

happybiker
12th Feb 2020, 10:37
[QUOTE=Genghis the Engineer;10685831]HB has, I think, pretty much nailed it, with the exception that your issue is the lack of a valid CofA. The Article 33 permission is clearly where you sit, but there will doubtless be a requirement to satisfy CAA that the flight is fundamentally safe.

That is correct if the C of A is temporarily invalid due to say non compliance with a maintenance requirement then the CAA will require to see the documentation that has been issued by the State of Registry that attests that it is safe to carry out the flight. In the case of a US registered aircraft that would normally be a Special Flight Authorisation issued by the FAA as per FAA Order 8130.2J Chapter 18.

Alaskaman makes reference to his company holding a "continuous authorisation" via Ops Spec DO 84 to authorise such temporary flights. I do not know what document and release of the aircraft is required under an Ops Spec DO 84 authorisation and I am not sure whether this would be acceptable to the CAA but it is well worthwhile asking CAA policy the question.

Alaskaman
16th Feb 2020, 17:13
HB/GE,

Thanks a ton for the input. I believe HB nailed it also. I went through the application for exemption 33 to test it (did not submit) and, while it appears it would get to the correct department, it doesn't seem to explicitly cover the temporary invalidation of COA due to maintenance issues. If you look at the attachment below for example, is a copy of the form used by Turks/Caicos and is similar to other countries. It specifically asks for the details of why the aircraft is unairworthy and what has been done to verify 'safe for flight'. Regardless, I think this would work and I thank you for your sleuthing. I could not find that.

For the D084 discussion, the way it works in the US if the flight becomes un-airworthy for an item (overfly an inspection, placard missing, radio inop, missing medical kit, minor damage slightly outside limits etc) that our maintenance team determines does NOT affect the safety of flight, then we can authorize the flight with no further discussion with the FAA under our D084 OpSpec approval. We have our own authority to authorize the flight as long as we follow our approved procedures. This allows us to quickly move the aircraft for repair without having to wait for a response from the FAA and the subsequent adding workload to them for minor issues. Keep in mind this only applies to specific items. Other items not within our approval require a direct contact via an FAA form 8130-6 to gain direct approval (8130-7)from the FAA for the Special Flight Permit, which is (as HB pointed out) covered in FAA order 8130.2J.

HB mentions that the CAA would want to see the documentation and in the case of the 8130-7, we would have it from the FAA. For the D084 continuing authorization, we have our own documentation and release, but it is produced by our own maintenance department without FAA input.

My second question was "Would the CAA allow a continuing authorization under our own approval, similar to US for overflight of UK airspace?" I would love to chat with the CAA as HB suggests, but have not had a response in over a week. I suppose I could fill out the application, pay the fee and then simply ask my questions on the application and see the response. :)

Perhaps if anyone knows a CAA airworthiness guru I could cover all the pints and have an informal roundtable discussion on my next LHR layover!

Thank you again for your time gents!

AM

Genghis the Engineer
16th Feb 2020, 22:11
As I said, because CAA are neck deep in Brexit issues, you aren't going to get any fast communications from them right now.

I'm not as current on dealing with CAA as I once was, but if I was to hazard a guess - no, CAA won't accept your internal D084 authorisation, they are highly likely to want something that says "FAA" under the signature.

G

Alaskaman
17th Feb 2020, 13:33
GE,

Thanks. I just got a response from CAA.

They pointed me at the same page HB found, so we're on the right track! I just replied to them asking about the 'continuous authorization' and will report back when I get a response. Like you, I personally doubt they will approve it, but I do know some countries do - Transport Canada for example does accept the US authorization but you must get special approval from TC.

AM

Alaskaman
18th Feb 2020, 18:34
Response from CAA. "The CAA does not issue or allow continuous authorisation, a permission/exemption will required for each flight. Kind regards"

AM

Genghis the Engineer
19th Feb 2020, 09:15
Clear and to the point, if nothing else!

G