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ProPax
6th Feb 2020, 09:02
https://www.flightglobal.com/air-transport/bombardier-discussing-sale-of-business-jet-unit-to-textron-reports/136534.article

Looks like (a) Bombardier is completely disappointed in aviation business and is leaving, and (b) Textron will now own Cessna, Beechcraft, and Bombardier. Will be a strong manufacturer provided its approved by anti-trust authoritires.

VERY surprising move from Bombardier considering how good the A220 is. And if they think their transportation division will run smoothly in the rail segment, they are in for a huge surprise. They don't have one product that doesn't have at least two competitors. And if bailing out is their reaction to tight competition, how long till they put the entire company on a garage sale?

Twitter
6th Feb 2020, 12:57
The new rolling stock hasnít made a good impression in German speaking Europe - lots of teething problems.

admiral ackbar
6th Feb 2020, 14:17
https://www.flightglobal.com/air-transport/bombardier-discussing-sale-of-business-jet-unit-to-textron-reports/136534.article

Looks like (a) Bombardier is completely disappointed in aviation business and is leaving, and (b) Textron will now own Cessna, Beechcraft, and Bombardier. Will be a strong manufacturer provided its approved by anti-trust authoritires.

VERY surprising move from Bombardier considering how good the A220 is. And if they think their transportation division will run smoothly in the rail segment, they are in for a huge surprise. They don't have one product that doesn't have at least two competitors. And if bailing out is their reaction to tight competition, how long till they put the entire company on a garage sale?

Not surprisingly since Boeing tried to run them out of business after Delta order and they were 'forced' to sell the C series (which is a great plane) for nothing to Airbus.

Arrogant company (weird stock class for founding Beaudoin family, invisible CEO that is paid way too much for someone who just sells divisions, the list goes on) that bit off more than they could chew. Will now be Alstom-Bombardier or something similar.

If they would have stuck to trains and business jets (and they should have kept BRP) they would be ok but delusions of grandeur. No military procurement going their way as opposed to Boeing and EADS was always going to be a big issue since they would always be accused of getting 'subsidies'. Don't get me wrong, this company is a master of getting handouts at various levels of government here in Canada but that particular double standard always grated me the wrong way.

End of an era, I hope Montreal still has an aerospace industry after all this.

l.garey
6th Feb 2020, 14:24
The new rolling stock hasn’t made a good impression in German speaking Europe - lots of teething problems.
Neither has it in French-speaking Switzerland. Due for delivery in 2016, the final date is now expected 2021 - and access for wheelchairs has still not been fully resolved.
Laurence

ve3id
6th Feb 2020, 14:33
The new rolling stock hasn’t made a good impression in German speaking Europe - lots of teething problems.
Nor the people of Toronto!
https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2020/01/25/as-torontos-last-new-streetcar-arrives-heres-a-look-back-at-the-long-bumpy-road-to-a-new-fleet.html?li_source=LI&li_medium=star_web_ymbii

ProPax
6th Feb 2020, 15:02
...weird stock class for founding Beaudoin family, invisible CEO...
Both are unknown to me. You mind to elaborate about stock class and "invisible" CEO?

Will now be Alstom-Bombardier or something similar.
I'd bet on Hitachi or Kawasaki.

Drc40
6th Feb 2020, 15:17
Truly the end of an era but debt has sunk the company. Quebec already bailed them out once and it’s not happening again. They have no way to meet upcoming repayments without selling. Even then they might come up short. The PTB burned this company into the ground. Really sad for this once shining star of Canadian aerospace. What’s left? Floatplanes, Otters and Dash.

Imagegear
6th Feb 2020, 15:29
I'd bet on Hitachi or Kawasaki


Refer Post 3: Textron

IG

admiral ackbar
6th Feb 2020, 15:42
Both are unknown to me. You mind to elaborate about stock class and "invisible" CEO?


I'd bet on Hitachi or Kawasaki.

Most of the stuff I can finf is in french so not very useful here. Basically there are two classes of shares, one that is traded publicly and another, very small in number, that has superior voting rights and are owned in majoprity by the heirs of J-A Bombardier, the Beaudouin family. Gives them much more power than they should have.

As to the invisible CEO, he is compensated well above average (the previous CEO was the grandson of the founder and attended about 4 board meetings a year while pulling a multi-million dollar salary), gets billions from the government but is never around to answer tough questions when there are layoffs, etc. Company used to be admired by the people here but now that sympathy is gone. I have linked one example of egregious behaviour (not unique amongst CEOs granted) amongst many. This CEO was hailed as a saviour and an outsider but all he has done in the last few years is divest, divest, divest and collect bonuses. Don't need to be paid millions to do that!

https://igopp.org/en/cppib-backs-investor-group-in-bid-to-end-bombardiers-dual-class-share-structure/

https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/bombardier-compensation-plan-1.5112398

This is a good recap of the whole ordeal for QC and CAN taxpayers

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/bombardier-what-happened-bailout-1.5453012


The PTB burned this company into the ground.

PTB?

moosepig
6th Feb 2020, 15:57
PTB?
Powers That Be?

Drc40
6th Feb 2020, 20:40
Powers That Be?

Exactly, as in the jack wagon linked above. Hated by many Quebecers and vilified by many workers. Ruined the company while raking in millions. The company is unlikely to be a going concern in the near future but those in charge (PTB) already bailed in their golden parachutes. Wouldnít be surprised if they end up sticking it to the government too. Typical corporate malfeasance and ridiculously poor governance.

rattman
6th Feb 2020, 21:11
Neither has it in French-speaking Switzerland. Due for delivery in 2016, the final date is now expected 2021 - and access for wheelchairs has still not been fully resolved.
Laurence

Damn same thing in Queensland australia. Looks like thier trains are shit

https://www.qt.com.au/news/queensland-rail-facing-legal-action-because-its-ne/3359054/

Old Dogs
6th Feb 2020, 21:37
Thank you, Boeing, .... and America. 😏

​​​​​​https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/bombardier-what-happened-bailout-1.5453012

Fogliner
6th Feb 2020, 23:59
Hmmm, a 1.5 bill bailout to save the company from a rogue take over and massive layoffs and they vote themselves a 50 percent extra bonus and then lay off the workers anyway.
Then to top it, the government gives them another 372 mill.
The sheer arrogance of these people is shocking.
After reading the facts, I hope the company dies a quick death.
Perhaps they can go back to snow mobiles again and make a go of it.
Just wow
Fog

Jet Jockey A4
7th Feb 2020, 03:15
Hmmm, a 1.5 bill bailout to save the company from a rogue take over and massive layoffs and they vote themselves a 50 percent extra bonus and then lay off the workers anyway.
Then to top it, the government gives them another 372 mill.
The sheer arrogance of these people is shocking.
After reading the facts, I hope the company dies a quick death.
Perhaps they can go back to snow mobiles again and make a go of it.
Just wow
Fog


Oh don't worry about the snowmobile division, Seadoo/personal watercraft division and motorcycle division all known as part of the BRP group, because they are doing very well... In fact they used to be part of the global company until the "family" bought them outright from the main company in a shady deal which is now fully controlled by the family and making money.

BTW, Bellemare the CEO, got a $26M bonus while asking for government help/subsidies to help them with their debts.

Drc40
7th Feb 2020, 06:25
Thank you, Boeing, .... and America. 😏

​​​​​​https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/bombardier-what-happened-bailout-1.5453012

I donít blame the Americans and Boeing as much as I blame the upper management and officers of Bombardier. Sure the tariff issue played a part but the path was laid down way, way before that. Please look at all the facts my Canadian brother before pointing the finger at America and Boeing. Their action just hastened the inevitable demise.

ProPax
7th Feb 2020, 08:24
Thank you, Boeing, .... and America. 😏

​​​​​​https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/bombardier-what-happened-bailout-1.5453012

Based on that article alone, I'd say, thank you, Quebec. If I understand it correctly, Quebec is so indignated by spending 1.3bln on the company when it was in trouble that they refuse to support it when it's on the brink of making billions on a successful if risky project. Whatever the margin notes are (CEO, bonuses, etc), it looks like an unprecedentedly obtuse move on their side. Killing a goose two days before it starts laying golden eggs. That's exactly what happened to Airbus, only France and Germany persevered and now they have a successful aircraft manufacturer.

Old Dogs
7th Feb 2020, 22:32
Based on that article alone, I'd say, thank you, Quebec. If I understand it correctly, Quebec is so indignated by spending 1.3bln on the company when it was in trouble that they refuse to support it when it's on the brink of making billions on a successful if risky project. Whatever the margin notes are (CEO, bonuses, etc), it looks like an unprecedentedly obtuse move on their side. Killing a goose two days before it starts laying golden eggs. That's exactly what happened to Airbus, only France and Germany persevered and now they have a successful aircraft manufacturer.

No doubt the management made a lot of mistakes, however, America, at Boeings request, implemented a 292% tariff on the C-Series.

That killed the project and forced the sale of the now Airbus 220.

Few products can survive a 292% tariff. 😏

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/trade-panel-rejects-boeings-case-against-bombardier/

tdracer
7th Feb 2020, 22:40
No doubt the management made a lot of mistakes, however, America, at Boeings request, implemented a 292% tariff on the C-Series.

That killed the project and forced the sale of the now Airbus 220.

Few products can survive a 292% tariff. 😏
That tariff was overturned and removed well before deliveries were scheduled to start, and years before Bombardier gave the C-series to Airbus.
Sorry, but that tariff mess had minimal long term affect on Bombardier's failure.

Old Dogs
7th Feb 2020, 22:43
That tariff was overturned and removed well before deliveries were scheduled to start, and years before Bombardier gave the C-series to Airbus.
Sorry, but that tariff mess had minimal long term affect on Bombardier's failure.

With respect, sir, that is patently incorrect.

Pease read the attached Seattle Times article.

Old Dogs
7th Feb 2020, 23:41
Wasn't me that said it, it was the Seattle Times.

Last time I checked they were American, ..... no?

ProPax
8th Feb 2020, 08:05
No doubt the management made a lot of mistakes, however, America, at Boeings request, implemented a 292% tariff on the C-Series.

That killed the project and forced the sale of the now Airbus 220.

Few products can survive a 292% tariff. 😏

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/trade-panel-rejects-boeings-case-against-bombardier/

The tariff was implemented on December 20, 2017. Thirty-six days later, on January 26, 2018, the tariff was overturned. The article says little more, other than the supposition that Boeing antagonized Delta. If a $6bln+ 8-years-long programme can be "killed" by a month long tariff dispute which didn't affect the sales or deliveries, whose fault is it?

Drc40
8th Feb 2020, 14:43
The tariff announcement was made in Sept/2017 and finalized later that year. It would be disingenuous to suggest the tariff only existed for 30 days when the damage was done months before. While there might be some blame to lay at the feet of Quebec comparing Bombardier to AB is another fallacy. Both companies where in completely different positions at the government bailout juncture.

Bombardier suffered death by a thousand spears. The tariff only amount to a few dozen of those.

WillowRun 6-3
9th Feb 2020, 02:46
Seattle Times article notes that acquisition by Airbus also granted AB "option" to buy out remaining ownership interests held, after the AB deal, by Bombardier and Quebec government. Without any access to the pertinent transaction documents - and while accepting as accurate the news reporting as far as it goes - what conditions for exercise of that option may exist at present, as opposed to what was projected for 2026 as referenced in the article, we can only guess.

Probably the CAQ party currently in charge of Quebec government would find nice advantage in giving a superior performance on the matter of retaining good, well-paying jobs in the province, as comparrd to Trudeau's party rather botching similar interests with engineering firm SNC-Lavalin. And quite plausibly there is a path forward that could work out well.

Instead of buying the interest AB didn't originally acquire, it should consider a modified consortium arrangement. The jet reportedly is a strong seller, correct? - and it is in the market ahead of other potential rivals. Don't shift production to Mobile - Quebec's aerospace heritage and its accomplished workforce not only match up well but surpass even strong resources in Mobile. Use an "earn-out" structure for taking a greater ownership interest now, and a reconfigured option later on. The more revenue and earnings, the more paid to Bombardier and QC for the fractional additional interest conveyed now, as well as under the later-deferred option.

It's innovative as a structure if you want to call it that, but it's really about dropping the pretense of resolving "who did what to whom" until now and instead getting on with, you know, the business of building airplanes.

Drc40
9th Feb 2020, 06:07
Instead of buying the interest AB didn't originally acquire, it should consider a modified consortium arrangement.

It's innovative as a structure if you want to call it that.

Yes, that would be very noble and innovative but why would AB do it? Business is business and they are about to buy the entire 220 program on the cheap. AB isnít in the business of being a charity. They made one of the best deals ever now its about to be all theirs for a bargain basement price. The 220 could be the best investment AB ever made.

WillowRun 6-3
9th Feb 2020, 13:40
However are Bombardier, and in the background the QC Province, bargaining smartly enough? Of course if there is no business incentive for AB, then it can drive the reportedly imminent deal to their own optimal terms - I wouldn't dispute that.

But allow a reference to the prior deal. Press reports indicated that AB was becoming obligated to bring its worldwide marketing, sales and support, and presence to bear in favor of the A220 program. Has AB done that sufficiently, and in accord with and fulfillment of the deal's terms (assuming the contract and related documents from the original deal, in the hands of a competently assertive attorney, provide a realisitic basis for "pushing back" on AB)? From QC's perspective, one could realistically expect that no stone will go unturned in endeavoring to keep jobs in aerospace here. AB has plenty of finance capacity, or so its apparently unblinking response to a four billion dollar civil penalty would suggest. And QC, and more broadly Canada (and its friends) could have pretty long memories. Not least the intensity of loyalty to the French-speaking tradition is easy to underestimate - but the sting when resentment is applied is not easily forgotten.

I don't know what the deal documents from the first AB deal say, but I do know that the entire earlier deal occurred in the grips of a strange, totally uncalled-for Tariff Delusional Fever from someplace south of Mirabel and Dorval, and it stands to reason there is leverage to be found from that earlier, hasty or hasty-seeming deal, if wise business people only will look for it. (Notice, no possible wisdom is claimed for any lawyers, SLF here included.)

Jet Jockey A4
10th Feb 2020, 01:13
Scoop!

I'm going to say that Bombardier is going to sell their train division and keep the Business Jet division.

Seat4A
11th Feb 2020, 23:49
An interesting and detailed read.

https://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/what-went-wrong-at-bombardier-everything


https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/641x349/1g_a49c15df567a7349f8f800e9d02c5d79e34be448.png

Drc40
12th Feb 2020, 17:50
Great write up from the Gazette. Yup, death by a thousand spears. Big economic hit to Quebec and Montreal. Sad.

ve3id
13th Feb 2020, 01:19
Apparently not only getting out of aerospace:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/major-announcements-to-accompany-bombardier-earnings-report-thursday-minister-1.5461294

Seat4A
13th Feb 2020, 13:53
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/688x393/1bm_7310ba19e80ab2d02a81f4d380637b3876d75b83.png


QUOTE:

"Adieu, A220. Farewell, commercial aviation.

Bombardier Inc. is transferring its 33.6-per-cent stake in the partnership that builds the plane formerly known as the C Series to Airbus SE and the government of Quebec, the companies said in a statement issued early Thursday. Airbus paid Bombardier $591 million to boost its stake to 75 per cent, while Quebec now holds the remaining 25 per cent.

The deal, which is effective immediately, cements Bombardierís exit from commercial aerospace. It also frees the Montreal-based manufacturer of future capital requirements to Airbus Canada LP, as the venture is called, just as production is ramping up. Bombardier put the future contributions at US$700 million."

Full article
https://montrealgazette.com/business/local-business/aerospace/bombardier-sells-off-a220-stake-ending-c-series-chapter

Drc40
13th Feb 2020, 17:02
Quebec’s only option and it’s a good one. They are positioned for a ROI while saving some jobs and getting rid of Bombardier’s corporate malfeasance impacting their bailout money. Not what they hoped for but the best they can do now.

Fogliner
13th Feb 2020, 19:06
Not to worry,those poor exec's will do fine on the 30 million bonus they voted themselves after the last fiasco.
Surprised that JT isn't trying to throw some more bonus money their way.

Fog

grizzled
13th Feb 2020, 23:22
The Beaverton (a Canadian satirical news outlet) sums things up well: https://www.thebeaverton.com/2020/02/bombardier-ask-for-another-3-7-billion-to-study-the-effects-of-government-money-going-through-a-jet-engine/

WillowRun 6-3
17th Feb 2020, 00:59
WSJ reporting Bombardier in preliminary transaction, to be announced Monday if terms completed, to sell train unit to Alstom, for reported approx. $7 billion.
If completed (per Journal reporting) this deal would mean recently reported talks with Textron for sale of business jet unit would be terminated.

340drvr
17th Feb 2020, 15:49
I can't keep up!
https://www.avweb.com/aviation-news/bombardier-ceo-favors-keeping-bizjet-business/?MailingID=288&utm_source=ActiveCampaign&utm_medium=email&utm_content=Bombardier+Stays+In+Bizjets%2C+VisionJets+Ground ed&utm_campaign=Bombardier+Stays+In+Bizjets%2C+VisionJets+Groun ded-Monday+February+17%2C+2020

WillowRun 6-3
17th Feb 2020, 21:37
https://www.bombardier.com/en/media/newsList/details.binc-20200217-bombardier-announces-its-strategic-decision-to-foc.bombardiercom.html

Official announcement.

The Range
17th Feb 2020, 21:53
So the CSeries almost took Bombardier bankrupt

Fogliner
17th Feb 2020, 22:39
So the CSeries almost took Bombardier bankrupt
It left them shadows of their former selves.
Just terrible for those poor exec's, how does one survive on a measly 30 million bonus?
Maybe another bonus for unloading the rail as well.
Sad
fog