Qantas Academy Questions

[flyhigherflybetter]

A mate of mine is thinking about applying for this program, however it seems there are many pitfalls, such as no guaranteed job at the end of it all.

Straight from their FAQ:4. If I successfully graduate from the Academy will I be guaranteed a job at Qantas?No. However, after graduation, students will automatically join the Qantas Group’s talent pool, have access to our General Aviation partners and be part of the Academy Alumni Program, all of which combined, will help to fast track your place in the recruitment process.

Different airlines have different entry requirements and it’s best to contact prospective employers to seek advice on this matter. It is common for regional airlines to require a minimum of 500 multi-engine command hours for employment. Major airlines usually require 500 multi-engine command hours, 1500 hours total flying time and an ATPL for direct entry.


It’s the second paragraph that gets me.

After $150k “hey youngin thanks for the cash now off ya go, have fun in GA or airline direct entry”

But whoops you don’t have 500 hours of multi engine command.

Essentially this is just getting a Qantas branded pilots licence, is it not?

[swells]

Yes, and if you rock up a for a non-QANTAS job with a QANTAS branded licence, the employer knows you are in the "talent pool" for QANTAS and arguably this could work against you in securing a non QANTAS job

[RatsoreA]

My question is, who are their ‘General Aviation partners”???

[crosscutter]

There is only one reason Qantas and Virgin have established their own pipeline...and that’s to address a structural pilot supply problem.

If you were selected into the Qantas program you would be crazy to not accept it based on the above logic. There is no guarantees in any job, let alone at training stage. What Qantas has is several subsidiary airlines and that means jobs.

I know what ticket I’d want.

The better questions would be:
What are the experience and quality of instructors? Where are they coming from and why?
Is the course good value? If you live in Adelaide, is it worth moving?

So back to the top, there is a supply problem of pilots. Training with a Qantas ticket is unlikely to restrict future employment, but it might give you a leg up.

[Climb150]

Structural pilot supply? The only structural supply I can think of is structural unemployment. Which is a mismatch of skills between employers and jobseekers.

These airline backed flying schools are just a way to keep an oversupply of pilots fighting for the few jobs on offer every year. Lots of applications means downward pressure on wages.

[crosscutter]

These airline backed flying schools are just a way to keep an oversupply of pilots fighting for the few jobs on offer every year. Lots of applications means downward pressure on wages.

You are spot on.

They also want quality control and to dictate future culture.

However, back to the questions asked...Is it going to matter where you train? Personally, I don’t think so. Is attending the Qantas school going to help you. Maybe, maybe not. It will certainly work in many students favour. But Is the environment that will exist within that school going to suit everyone? It sure will be competitive.

Fact is aviation is brutal. You slave away building hours, sit interviews...get rejected. Sit interviews...get accepted and put on hold files. Little glimmer of hopes are crushed as you realise the hold file can mean nothing. You move cities, countries and the worst bit....some people seem to get what you want so easily.

You want to give yourself the best opportunity. Currently, that is with an airline sponsored training course. If you don’t get a job due to a million possibilities, you’ve still given yourself the best shot, and if I was a prospective student, that’s what I’d want. (I don’t know the costs, so I assume all is equal but appreciate it’s a valid consideration)

[flyhigherflybetter]

Structural pilot supply? The only structural supply I can think of is structural unemployment. Which is a mismatch of skills between employers and jobseekers.

These airline backed flying schools are just a way to keep an oversupply of pilots fighting for the few jobs on offer every year. Lots of applications means downward pressure on wages.


That’s exactly what I’m thinking, the long term intention is to quash future salaries and conditions in the industry, albeit behind the guise of an “academy” where the public think that Qantas actually gives a damn, and is actually contributing to the industry...

Its just perplexing that with the abundance of qualified professionals in GA, military, instructing, regionals and not to mention plenty in the university qlink partnership pipeline, they then go and set up this academy.

I understand it would be mighty useful if this shortage was at an apocalyptic level and they needed pilots left right and centre but I can’t see this happening anytime soon.

[Clare Prop]

Good luck to them, so long as they go in with their eyes wide open - especially with regards to the VET loans.

I'm supposing that this training will not be preparing them in any way for anything other than airline work, it's quite a risky basket to put all your eggs in.

Of course this sort of thing was around when I was a fugly in the 80s, funny but there was a "pilot shortage" then as well!

[ziggerz]

surely this is just another FTA venue to fuel growth of overseas demand in the long term? The fact that is branded may allow a higher price of training to be charged... sounds all too familiar

[dr dre]

But whoops you don’t have 500 hours of multi engine command.


Which would be a problem in the past but now considering CASA don’t require 500 multi command for an ATPL nor do QF, VA, Qlink, VARA, Tigerair, JQ, or any other major airline here or overseas have a requirement for 500 hours multi engine command for recruitment it isn’t a problem at all.

In fact what is more desired is multi crew time so advice to youngsters out there get yourself those multi crew hours up ASAP. And the obvious best way to do it is join a cadet program like this academy.

Is employment guaranteed? Nope, but no employment is guaranteed in this life. If you pass the course to the acceptable standard and the economy isn’t in a downturn when you finish I can’t see why you wouldn’t be prioritised for recruitment.

[pull-up-terrain]

Does anyone know who the General Aviation partners are, and what sort of flying they do?

Will it be a program similar to what some Regional Airlines in the USA do where you do an interview with the airline, undergo training (CPL, ATPL etc) and then work as an instructor for 1500 hours? Once they get the 1500 hours, the cadets are guaranteed an “interview” with the Regional Airline?

[dr dre]

Will it be a program similar to what some Regional Airlines in the USA do where you do an interview with the airline, undergo training (CPL, ATPL etc) and then work as an instructor for 1500 hours? Once they get the 1500 hours, the cadets are guaranteed an “interview” with the Regional Airline?

For some it could involve work as an instructor. As Australia (and the rest of the world) doesn’t have the 1500hr rule then it will more probably involve direct employment post training on anything from F/O on a Dash 8 to an A320 or S/O on a 787 or A330, but it’s all up to what is needed at the time.

[flyhigherflybetter]

For some it could involve work as an instructor. As Australia (and the rest of the world) doesn’t have the 1500hr rule then it will more probably involve direct employment post training on anything from F/O on a Dash 8 to an A320 or S/O on a 787 or A330, but it’s all up to what is needed at the time.

It would be extremely attractive if that was the case. I understand employment cannot be guaranteed due to student performance, economic factors etc, but if they could at the very least guarantee employment based on satisfactory performance during the course, and where a position becomes available in the group. But then again this isn't a cadetship.
Nonetheless it's still a gamble of sorts since there are cadetships available that do stipulate employment upon successful completion of course.

If they want to train upwards of a few hundred a year, and if this pilot shortage sees the group employ a few hundred new pilots a year, where does that leave the wealth of experience that come from GA, military, instructing, regionals and overseas airlines. Would these academy graduates be prioritised though?

[Stickshift3000]

If they want to train upwards of a few hundred a year, and if this pilot shortage sees the group employ a few hundred new pilots a year, where does that leave the wealth of experience that come from GA, military, instructing, regionals and overseas airlines. Would these academy graduates be prioritised though?

Exactly that: there is no pilot shortage in Aus. It’s an industry-perpetuated myth, and a mirage to all young aspiring pilots. Thee is a shortage in some other countries.

[ravan]

There's no shortage of low time pilots. There might be a shortage of experienced pilots but you won't address that by churning out more low time pilots.

[Capt Fathom]

There's no shortage of low time pilots. There might be a shortage of experienced pilots but you won't address that by churning out more low time pilots.

You can only churn out low time pilots. The rest is up to them and fate!

[Jabberwocky82]

I don’t think this is a bad thing but you need to have the right mentality. You need to go in here and act as though it’s a course long job interview. It’s not a ticket in wins a job, you’ll need to dedicate yourself and try to be at the very best of the courses to give yourself the best shot at a job. If you cruise through the course you’d likely to be cruising the prospect pool.

What is to be more worried about is the VET fee bill. I’m not 100% privy to how this one works so apologies if I am incorrect but having such a big bill over your head is really going to take the fun out of anything you do. It’s a new problem creeping in to the industry that is just not going to end well for many I feel.

But dedicate yourself and try your best and hopefully you are rewarded.

[neville_nobody]

These airline backed flying schools are just a way to keep an oversupply of pilots fighting for the few jobs on offer every year. Lots of applications means downward pressure on wages.

Exactly just have a look at what happens in Law and Engineering. All the big operators throw money at universities to keep the cost of getting a degree down to oversupply the labor market. Same would happen in Medicine if there was no intervention to limit supply.

There's no shortage of low time pilots. There might be a shortage of experienced pilots but you won't address that by churning out more low time pilots.

However these days low time pilots are walking into turboprops. The airlines will then ensure the exemptions are all in place so they can be made Captain. That way the Airline has complete control over its labour supply. CASA has also helped out by locking up instrument ratings with your company and by making the ATPL Flight Test prohibitively expensive.

All these factors reduce competition in the pilot market and basically give Airlines a monopoly on pilot supply and thereby giving them control of their employees.

[Pickle123]

What do you think will happen to the QANTAS Academy now?

[managed]

They still have 4 more courses locked in from July. I know a youngster going for an interview next month. Would be very interested to hear from anyone who is on course at the moment.

[retardeduck]

They still have 4 more courses locked in from July. I know a youngster going for an interview next month. Would be very interested to hear from anyone who is on course at the moment.

Not on the course personally but a mate of mine is a Grade 2 instructor with FTA QLD (the company that actually does the training). The graduates are simply added to the QF talent pool once they complete the course with a CPL, CIR and ATPL passes. FTA gets their $120k+, Qantas gets the media of ‘training the future generation’ and all are happy. Apparently a lot of the QG01 students are saying they want direct entry after they finish but are “basically dreaming”.

That’s not to say it won’t be a leg up once they do go and get a GA job to build hours for a few years (especially now considering COVID), but it’s hardly a cadetship by any stretch of the imagination. Best tactic would be to treat it as a year-long job interview, do the very best you can, go and get those multi hours up and then try and get in through the talent pool.

FTA still trains other airline cadets from the academy too, currently a batch of IndiGo ones are going through. Overall it really is just a glorified FTA CPL VET-FEE course with an airline badge stamped on top. Will be interested to see in a few years time if the talent pool actually eventuates to anything.

[Pickle123]

I would be interested to know where the academy is suggesting all of these new pilots get jobs in the next few years. I suppose that isn't really their concern if they're only a training facility and Qantas hasn't said any of the graduates are guaranteed jobs. By the looks of it they will have around 100 students in the academy by the end of the year.

[KeepItStraight]

I would be interested to know where the academy is suggesting all of these new pilots get jobs in the next few years. I suppose that isn't really their concern if they're only a training facility and Qantas hasn't said any of the graduates are guaranteed jobs. By the looks of it they will have around 100 students suckers in the academy by the end of the year.
I saw an error in your post which I have corrected for you. :ok:

[normanton]

I would be interested to know where the academy is suggesting all of these new pilots get jobs in the next few years. I suppose that isn't really their concern if they're only a training facility and Qantas hasn't said any of the graduates are guaranteed jobs. By the looks of it they will have around 100 students in the academy by the end of the year.
You mean the part of the contract which states there is no guarantee of a job or employment?

Was nothing more than a way to make $$$, and yet suckers still fell for it.

Now they will be over $100k in debt to mummy and daddy with no chance of a job in aviation anywhere in the next 2 years.

[Styx75]

Now they will be over $100k in debt to mummy and daddy with no chance of a job in aviation anywhere in the next 2 years.
VETFEE is a debt to the government, at a pretty good interest rate for an unsecured loan. Made up by over the top charges for the course though.

[Bodie1]

at a pretty good interest rate for an unsecured loan.

Are you forgetting the 20% flat fee the government levies on the course cost?

So, that would make the comparison rate a bit of a joke.

[Styx75]

Me
at a pretty good interest rate for an unsecured loan.

Also Me
Made up by over the top charges for the course though


Bodie:
Are you forgetting the 20% flat fee the government levies on the course cost?

sO, tHaT WoUlD MaKe tHe cOmPaRiSoN RaTe a bIt oF A JoKe.

Hope you can read your regs better then you can read pprune posts.

[Pickle123]

250 flying hours, CPL, MEIR, ATPL and MCC in one year for $150 000.
How much time and money would it cost to do everything the QANTAS academy is offering at another flight school?

[Climb150]

250 flying hours, CPL, MEIR, ATPL and MCC in one year for $150 000.
How much time and money would it cost to do everything the QANTAS academy is offering at another flight school?
About 50k less

[Bodie1]

Hope you can read your regs better then you can read PPRuNe posts.

I do alright with the regs thanks.

You obviously have no clue what a comparison rate is. Like a lot of pilots, financial management is not a strong point. Hope you're not doling out financial advice with your flight lessons.

[Pickle123]

About 50k less
Would the time you need be the same?

Although it may be 50k more, you don't have to pay upfront and it is done in a year. Putting you back into the workforce and hour building sooner?

[Styx75]

I do alright with the regs thanks.

You obviously have no clue what a comparison rate is. Like a lot of pilots, financial management is not a strong point. Hope you're not doling out financial advice with your flight lessons.

Maybe if I'm mentioning rates and course fees I'm effectively referring to a comparison rate? :eek:
Nah, you best take those regs back to whichever flight schools garbage bin you lifted them from.

[Bodie1]

Maybe if I'm mentioning rates and course fees I'm effectively referring to a comparison rate? https://www.pprune.org/images/smilies/eek.gif
Nah, you best take those regs back to whichever flight schools garbage bin you lifted them from.

Well, no you weren't, you said it was a pretty good rate. You just don't like your lack of knowledge being pointed out. If you say one thing but mean another then you have a problem.

I don't trawl garbage bins for regs, the amendments are all kept up to date. I don't teach subjects with out of date regs, that would be wrong.

Let's keep up the little tit for tat, I quite enjoy so called experts making dickheads of themselves.

[Styx75]

Well, no you weren't, you said it was a pretty good rate. You just don't like your lack of knowledge being pointed out. If you say one thing but mean another then you have a problem.

I don't trawl garbage bins for regs, the amendments are all kept up to date. I don't teach subjects with out of date regs, that would be wrong.

Let's keep up the little tit for tat, I quite enjoy so called experts making dickheads of themselves.

Flight schools must love your monthly dumpster dive amendments... and watch the language, can just picture your bloated red face typing that...

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

As Styx and Bodie can't seem to understand the rules about personal attacks not being tolerated this thread has to stop here. Perhaps someone would like to start a new, up to date thread on the subject.