50% co-pilot time

[carboncub180]

Hello,
i am a RPL pilot based in WA. I am flying a lot in my friends cessna 180 and RV6 however just sitting in the right seat and acting as a co-pilot, flying it down to short final and then handing over controls etc. Can i log this as 50% co-pilot time if i hold a CSU and Tailwheel endorsement and all design features for that airplane?

[NZScion]

No.

This message needs 10 characters.

[junior.VH-LFA]

On this topic seeing as this is somewhat relevant, I'm just curious because of something I've seen someone post on Instagram.

Is it legal to log PNF time on a singe pilot aircraft >5700kg if you DO NOT hold a type rating? Like A King Air or Citation? Or an Avanti...

Just curious.

[jonkster]

I think you can only log co-pilot time if acting as a co-pilot in an aircraft where either:
1. you are operating as co-pilot in an aircraft that requires at least 2 pilots (according to the flight manual) or
2. you are operating as co-pilot under an AOC that specifies the aircraft will be operated as a multi pilot aircraft.

I think there is (suprise, suprise!) an unintended discrepency in the part 61 stuff (see 61.460 Privileges of recreational pilot licences)
that says an RPL *may* act as pilot *or co-pilot* in an aircraft that is certified for single pilot operations so - if the 180 is operating under an AOC and the AOC requires it be flown as a multicrew aircraft you might be able to! :)
At least until someone in CASA notices the typo!

[geeup]

If you are flying as a recreational pilot I don’t think CASA or anyone else would really care. Your logbook is all yours.

However if you are a commercial pilots logging KingAir / Citation time without an endorsement I feel it would raise flags particularly with your company or airline (or at the interview). Most companies / airline semi own what’s in your logbook & it’s legality.

[carboncub180]

Thanks for the reply, its just operated privately so does that mean i can or cannot log 50% co-pilot time if i'm flying in the right seat.

[tail wheel]

C180 private ops does not require a co-pilot, there fore, no you can not log co-pilot.

"...if the 180 is operating under an AOC and the AOC requires it be flown as a multicrew aircraft you might be able to!"

If the AOC required the aircraft to be flown multi pilot on commercial operations, both pilots would be required to hold a CPL or higher.

[spektrum]

All the above posters have given in to the troll.

[roundsounds]

Thanks for the reply, its just operated privately so does that mean i can or cannot log 50% co-pilot time if i'm flying in the right seat.

if you’re appropriately licensed you can log the time as PIC if you are acting as PIC. If you’re not appropriately licenced you cannot manipulate the controls unless the other pilot is a qualified instructor and operating under a part 141 or 142 school.

[drpixie]

Thanks for the reply, its just operated privately so does that mean i can or cannot log 50% co-pilot time if i'm flying in the right seat.

No - you cannot. The only time you can log copilot is when you are part of a formal multi-crew operation - being when the AOC requires it (commercial op) or the aircraft type rating reqires 2 pilots, with duties appropriately shared and managed, and you both hold multi-crew cooperation (MCC) training. That could theoretically happen with PPL but you're talking about (say) a DC3 or Learjet (requires 2 crew) with both pilots type rated and both MCC trained.

[Ixixly]

All the above posters have given in to the troll.

Scarier thought is that he isn't trolling...

For OP, incase you're not trolling anyone looking at your logbook will instantly see this time and probably pass you over if you're trying to get hours this way as it'll call into doubt the usefulness of all your other hours.

[Capt Fathom]

Oops. I better white-out my Space Shuttle entries then!

[AmarokGTI]

Next minute..... “Hi I’m an FO and want to know, when the CPT goes for a toilet break can I log command time? I was thinking 0.1 for a wee or 0.2 for a poo would be reasonable”

[beached az]

No!!

C180 private ops does not require a co-pilot, there fore, no you can not log co-pilot.
If the AOC required the aircraft to be flown multi pilot on commercial operations, both pilots would be required to hold a CPL or higher.

What Tail wheel said......
To log CP time you need to have at least a CPL (as far as I'm aware there is no PVT ops that require 2 pilots below 5700KG) and Type Rated.
Also you need to be flying a type that requires 2 pilots due to AFM, AOC, or CASA RPT regs.
At least that's was the case pre Part 61

[megan]

as far as I'm aware there is no PVT ops that require 2 pilots below 5700KGRules and rules. Flew helos in private ops 11,700 lbs AUW single pilot, CASA decided we had to upgrade from CPL to ATPL, and company decided to introduced co-pilots, even though single pilot was legal. This back pre 2004.

[thunderbird five]

So the answer here so far is:
No.
Yes.
Maybe.
I think so.
I think not.
Could be.
Maybe not.
I dunno.
Some guy told me.

CASR 61.085.

[Capt Fathom]

What I would say is.... does it pass the pub test?

[swh]

Hello,
i am a RPL pilot based in WA. I am flying a lot in my friends cessna 180 and RV6 however just sitting in the right seat and acting as a co-pilot, flying it down to short final and then handing over controls etc. Can i log this as 50% co-pilot time if i hold a CSU and Tailwheel endorsement and all design features for that airplane?

Do you also drive down to the police station after a night out in the pub to ask them if your over the limit ?

“Stupid is as stupid does.” – Forrest Gump

CIVIL AVIATION SAFETY REGULATIONS 1998 - REG 137.125
Manipulation of flight controls

(1) While an aeroplane is engaged in an application operation its flight controls may be manipulated by a person only if the person is:

(a) the pilot in command of the aeroplane; or

(b) a pilot who is being trained in application operations; or

(c) a person authorised to do so by CASA.

Penalty: 25 penalty units.

(2) If an aeroplane engaged in an application operation is on the ground with the engine running, the pilot in command must be at the controls unless:

(a) the pilot is refuelling the aeroplane in accordance with the operations manual; or

(b) the following apply:

(i) the pilot remains near the aeroplane;

(ii) the wheel brakes are locked and, if practicable, the wheels are chocked;

(iii) the aeroplane's power controls are friction locked and, if possible, the propeller is feathered;

(iv) the engine is retarded to idle and, if possible, ground idle.

Penalty: 25 penalty units.

(3) Subregulation (4) applies if a person who is not, under these Regulations, entitled to manipulate the aeroplane's flight controls:

(a) occupies a control seat fitted with fully or partially functioning controls; or

(b) is seated in a position where he or she could interfere with the controls.

(4) The pilot in command of the aeroplane must:

(a) instruct the person not to interfere with the controls; and

(b) be satisfied on reasonable grounds that the person has understood the instruction.

Penalty: 25 penalty units.

(5) A contravention of subregulation (1) or (2) is an offence of strict liability.

(6) Strict liability applies to the physical element mentioned in paragraph (4)(a).

If you want a keep a written evidence record for the commonwealth prosecutor to use in court against you, by all means log all the time you have been flying illegally.

[CAVOK92]

Defiantly just a wind up :)


However, there is an instrument for AOC holders to allow flight crew to log co-pilot time in a single pilot certified aircraft.

https://www.legislation.gov.au/Details/F2018L00914

[deja vu]

Hello,
i am a RPL pilot based in WA. I am flying a lot in my friends cessna 180 and RV6 however just sitting in the right seat and acting as a co-pilot, flying it down to short final and then handing over controls etc. Can i log this as 50% co-pilot time if i hold a CSU and Tailwheel endorsement and all design features for that airplane?

Log whatever you like, jeez it's been happening for years. One of my first instructors ( also a flatmate) created a brand new log book showing 3 times more hours than he actually had flown. CFI was in cahoots and stamped and signed the new log book. Off he went to airlines with about 400 hours but claiming 1200 or more. No sim ride required in those days, no one checked, what a farce.!

[parabellum]

If a pilot is prepared to lie about his/her experience in order to gain employment they have committed a crime, obtaining money or goods under false pretences. That is only a part of it. When an insurer insures an operator the cover will be based on the Ops Manual, if an AOC operator or a written declaration from the proposer, if it is not an AOC operation. Either way, if the AOC, Ops Manual or written declaration certify the minimum qualification for crew and a pilot with a falsified log book and insufficient hours is involved in an accident/incident it could invalidate the insurance, unlikely, but it could lay the individual open to legal action from the insurers and having been uncovered as a cheat and liar renders the individual unemployable, particularly after the regulating authority have had their pound of flesh too.

So it does matter deja vu, if a pilot is prepared to lie about their experience what else are they going to cheat and lie about?

[deja vu]

If a pilot is prepared to lie about his/her experience in order to gain employment they have committed a crime, obtaining money or goods under false pretences. That is only a part of it. When an insurer insures an operator the cover will be based on the Ops Manual, if an AOC operator or a written declaration from the proposer, if it is not an AOC operation. Either way, if the AOC, Ops Manual or written declaration certify the minimum qualification for crew and a pilot with a falsified log book and insufficient hours is involved in an accident/incident it could invalidate the insurance, unlikely, but it could lay the individual open to legal action from the insurers and having been uncovered as a cheat and liar renders the individual unemployable, particularly after the regulating authority have had their pound of flesh too.

So it does matter deja vu, if a pilot is prepared to lie about their experience what else are they going to cheat and lie about?
Yes, of course it does matter.

I guess I was just pointing out how easy it is to get away with falsifying log books. The case I was talking about was over 50 years ago