F-35s to Red Flag

[Chris Kebab]

What a disappointing and frustrating start to the det, all diverted to Lajes, https://theaviationist.com/2020/01/22/raf-f-35b-lightnings-bound-to-nellis-afb-for-their-first-red-flag-exercise-diverted-to-lajes/

[Not_a_boffin]

Any of the usual suspects blamed the carriers yet?

[Asturias56]

Not even the RN thinks it can get it's carriers to Nevada...................... :E

[oldmansquipper]

Not even the RN thinks it can get it's carriers to Nevada...................... :E

Are you sure? Have you spoken to Sharkey?

:eek:

[SASless]

I suppose putting them on a RORO freighter for the crossing wasn't a choice.

[MountainMetman]

I suppose putting them on a RORO freighter for the crossing wasn't a choice.
They would but all the RORO are sequestered for Brexit contingency...

[Asturias56]

I suppose putting them on a RORO freighter for the crossing wasn't a choice.


Book some seats on Delta for the pilots and send them as "emotional support items"

[BEagle]

No doubt '10% Carlos' (if he hasn't yet retired) will have done his usual excellent job of sorting out some hotel rooms etc.? He once put me in the presidential suite of the Hotel Nasce Agua - "Special room for Commandante!" as he put it.

I can't help wondering quite what sort of a 'fuel anomaly' would have caused the whole trail to divert? While the F-35B does have rather short legs, there are few abort aerodromes available on the southern route. Trailing 3 x Jags from Lajes to Halifax often wasn't quite doable if the tanker went single hose, so a decision had to be made as to the need to use 2 tankers in cell or risk going single hose.

[SASless]

Beags,

As I know naught about such things.....why would a routing around the typical northern route structure not have afforded more flexibility with access to more diversions than appears to be available on the routing selected?

Is there an advantage to going south rather than north that I do not understand?

I would think the aircraft could be either landed or craned aboard one of the new carriers and transported to close proximity of the USA or Canada and then be flown off to continue on their merry way as a legitimate option.

[Asturias56]

Only the QE can handle F-35'a right now according to the article below and she's still in port.

Thursday, 23rd January 2020, 12:22 pm
https://www.portsmouth.co.uk/news/defence/royal-navy-aircraft-carriers-hms-queen-elizabeth-and-hms-prince-wales-set-reshuffle-portsmouth-1373626The 65,000-tonne giant has been given a window to leave the naval base between 11.15am and midday, the Queen’s Harbour Master has announced. It comes after the Royal Navy cancelled an earlier departure of the £3.1bn aircraft carrier on Tuesday. The navy refused to confirm why the trip had been postponed. Speaking to The News on Tuesday evening, a spokeswoman said: ‘HMS Queen Elizabeth did not sail today. This will not affect her training programme.’

She added: ‘We do not discuss ship’s programmes in detail and all ship’s movements are subject to change.’ Navy sources have not yet officially confirmed whether the vessel will set sail from Portsmouth tomorrow. An announcement could be made later today or early tomorrow on the Royal Navy’s social media accounts.

It’s not clear how long the vessel will be at sea for. However, it’s understood the ship, when it does leave, will continue with a work-up that will see her preparing for her first operational deployment in 2021. These preparations will include flight trials of the F-35 stealth jet in British waters. Meanwhile, Queen Elizabeth’s sister ship, HMS Prince of Wales, is also scheduled to move from her home at the naval base’s Victory Jetty tomorrow. If Queen Elizabeth is given the green-light to depart, Prince of Wales will be shifted over to the neighbouring Princess Royal Jetty, where planned maintenance work will continue.

Prince of Wales is expected to leave Portsmouth on her first overseas adventure later this year, where she will sail to Florida. The 280m giant will carry out her first tests of the new multi-million pound stealth jet. Her first operational deployment is expected to take place in 2023

[Chris Kebab]

Well, it seems 5 F-35s landed in Lajes but only 4 continued west yesterday.

[flighthappens]

Well, it seems 5 F-35s landed in Lajes but only 4 continued west yesterday.

RAF strewing aircraft around the globe on a trail?

Tell me it isn’t true!

[BEagle]

Beags,

As I know naught about such things.....why would a routing around the typical northern route structure not have afforded more flexibility with access to more diversions than appears to be available on the routing selected?

Is there an advantage to going south rather than north that I do not understand?

I would think the aircraft could be either landed or craned aboard one of the new carriers and transported to close proximity of the USA or Canada and then be flown off to continue on their merry way as a legitimate option.

Survivability aspects of the northern route are more problematic in winter. The UK no longer has any long range SAR assets - yet another 'capability holiday'....

[sandiego89]

Beags,


I would think the aircraft could be either landed or craned aboard one of the new carriers and transported to close proximity of the USA or Canada and then be flown off to continue on their merry way as a legitimate option.

Using an aircraft carrier to take 5 jets across the pond is surely doable, but not really an easy or cheap option. The bunkering, crewing, provisioning, impact on scheduling with say 2 weeks of sailing time, loss of the ship and aircraft for training times, etc would be enormous.

I also note the Spanish P-3 borrowed for long range SAR support.....as Beagle noted, another capability gap until P-8 comes on line.

[KiloB]

But if the Aircraft can be deployed to the other side of the World without the Carriers, do we need the Carriers?

(Light the blue touch paper and retire to a safe distance)

KB

[BEagle]

But if the Aircraft can be deployed to the other side of the World without the Carriers, do we need the Carriers?

(Light the blue touch paper and retire to a safe distance)

KB
Are there any military aircrew left on this website these days?

[Lonewolf_50]

Are there any military aircrew left on this website these days?
Given that your own sell by date has long since expired, how is that a valid query, Beags?
You are not, any longer.
So why do you impugn others?
My sell by date expired in 2005.
I am a 'used to be' who still loves that Military Aviation Profession and advocates for it.
Take your wet blanket act and park it on the ramp way out there, where the fire fighters practice their craft on long dead airframes.
You'll be in good company.

[Lonewolf_50]

But if the Aircraft can be deployed to the other side of the World without the Carriers, do we need the Carriers?
(Light the blue touch paper and retire to a safe distance) KB
Who is "we"
Kilo B?
(yeah, that rhymes)

[Bob Viking]

May I elucidate on LWs post.

Here is my honest appraisal. If you don’t want honesty then please skip this post.

I have spoken with several current aircrew about Pprune and you’d be amazed at how often your name crops up.

This thread is a great example of why that is. A question about F35 turns into a tale about 10% Carlos.

We all know of your past experiences and expertise but the minute you start off down that track many people lose interest.

It is for reasons like that, that many people jokingly refer to this forum as the Military Nostalgia forum.

Now before everyone jumps down my throat I am not trying to be offensive or disrespectful. All of us look up to those that went before us and value their knowledge and experience.

What I am suggesting is that it is often best to consider if a thread really needs an historical tale to make it better.

I try as much as possible to only comment on things I know about. And where my inputs can be relevant.

I’ve trailed through the Azores but it was 15 years ago and not in an F35. We also intended to stop there. But that input would have no relevance to the topic.

You also need to consider the modern world.

The infamous AVM Walker address to CQWI should serve as a reminder why current aircrew need to think very carefully about what they post.

Commercial sensitivities also play a huge part. Is it any wonder that staff at MFTS locations, for instance, stay out of the numerous MFTS bashing threads?

Anyway, I’m sorry if you don’t like my post and please everyone don’t think we don’t want to hear tall tales but BEagle, you did ask.

BV

[Asturias56]

Bob

I have some sympathy with your irritation on thread drift but I really believe it would have been better to PM Beagle rather than call him out in public. We're supposed to play the ball , not the man

PPrune isn't just about technical queries and news - it's a community and that means a wide variety of people - some of whom irritate others occasionally but who add to the sum of the whole place.

[Bob Viking]

We shall have to agree to disagree. A public query gets a public response.

BV

[SASless]

BV,

How did you earn your Brevet (is that the proper British Term) to hold forth as you did?

I have bashed Beags in the past....a few times he actually deserved it.

But....Beags has walked the walk and as American Cowboys will tell you....it ain't bragging if you done it.

I tip my hat to those that have in the past and those who do currently.

The day I pinned those Wings on my Chest....I became a Military Aviator......and that is a something that shall never change.

We should all remember that as it applies to all us who did that even it yours was sewn on and not pinned on.....in reality they could have been tattooed upon your breast and it would have been the same.

[Bob Viking]

That whole thing was a bit cryptic for me I’m afraid.

As I said, BEagle asked the question of where all the current aviators were and I gave an answer. I also said he may not like the answer I gave.

I also made pains to point out that I have total respect for the aviators of the past but that sometimes reminiscence doesn’t help with answering a question. There is a time and a place. Admittedly, I don’t think any of us should have expected an actual answer to the question posed in this thread.

My later points were meant to illustrate the modern issues of OPSEC and commercial sensitivities. Does anybody ever wonder why we don’t have current Typhoon and F35 pilots running their mouths off on here? I’m a REMF, hence I can post a little more freely.

I have locked horns with Beags in the past and my point has always been that nobody is above criticism. That includes me and I accept that willingly.

I think you were questioning my credentials. I’ve probably banged on enough about it in the past. I have 20 years flying jets (Jag and Hawk) and am still doing it on a daily basis.

I am well aware of your experience and admire it greatly, but it doesn’t mean we have to agree about everything.

BV

[Asturias56]

To be fair anyone who posts on here about their current paid employment is.... unwise.........

[sharpend]

Given that your own sell by date has long since expired, how is that a valid query, Beags?
You are not, any longer.
So why do you impugn others?
My sell by date expired in 2005.
I am a 'used to be' who still loves that Military Aviation Profession and advocates for it.
Take your wet blanket act and park it on the ramp way out there, where the fire fighters practice their craft on long dead airframes.
You'll be in good company.


Lonewolf. Given that I am quite a bit older than Beagle (I actually taught him at RAF Chivenor in 1982), you probably think I am past my 'sell by date'. Not a bit of it. I still teach aerobatics, tail chasing & formation flying and own my own 'Warbird' So don't really seem ready for pipe & slippers just yet. Moreover, having watched interviews by Douglas Bader and Robin Olds, they too had much to offer despite being even older than myself. Military aviation principles don't change too much.

[downsizer]

In the past I've had some great help out of this site from serving people with current knowledge (pensions, JPA, policy, etc...). Would I ask many of those questions today, probably not for the very reasons BV mentions. And nor would (m)any of my serving colleagues.

That said, it is what it is. It is now more a RBL, VFW, etc than a virtual T-Bar. Not better, not worse, just different.

Long live the mil history forum. :E

[BEagle]

Indeed you taught me at Chiv, Bluntie - and very well too, I might add!

These days I am merely one of […]the backroom boys and girls who support the flying […]

So my professional interest in AAR trail management was attracted by the news of the trail diversion. So all the F-35B and carrier bashing was an unwelcome distraction.

As SASless might agree "You can take the man out of the fighter, but never the fighter out of the man" as a USAF pilot once said!

By the way,10% Carlos was (and probably still is) a most excellent chap!

[Airbubba]

Possibly related to the F-35 deployment to Red Flag.

From FlightRadar24:

MRTT RRR9401 out of Charleston (the one in South Carolina, not CRW) has apparently done some refueling and is headed west.

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1214x584/rrr9401_b5b4d8047c4dc533812da3d003daa9b9b2d8ec6a.jpg

RRR9403 out of Lajes has done the 'forgot his sandwiches' maneuver and is headed eastbound.

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1225x619/rrr9403_fee88be9da774f235e52115822ae1cc6769f01d9.jpg

[RAFEngO74to09]

It is - they staged through MCAS Beaufort, SC.

[Lonewolf_50]

Lonewolf. Given that I am quite a bit older than Beagle (I actually taught him at RAF Chivenor in 1982), you probably think I am past my 'sell by date'.
That makes two of us, you and I. Though I suspect you are a bit older than I.
A few of my mentors flew in Korea, more in Viet Nam.
Clyde Lassen was my CO when I was in my early helicopter training.
What I find really annoying about Beags' whinging is that it is whinging.
Military aviation principles don't change too much.
We are in violent agreement.
The post I responded to had bloody fcuk all to do with military aviation principles.
Maybe my point did not come across clearly enough, and really, it doesn't matter.
Better to stay on the topic of the F-35 to Red Flag.
Bob the Viking covered the rest.
Personally, I think it is great the the UK's F-35's are heading to Red Flag to train ... and to do Vegas. Work hard, play hard. That was once part of the Military Aviator's ethos.

[BVRAAM]

41 Sqn will also be joining them this year for Typhoon trials work, according to the Nellis media list.

[Airbubba]

It is - they staged through MCAS Beaufort, SC.

If they staged out of Beaufort it looks to me like that refueling must be for stragglers or somebody that's going home. Nellis is in the other direction. It looks like the second MRTT plane was an airborne spare. Navy Pax River is nearby if they needed gas and the tanker had another problem. But that might not be a good optic for the media back home.

The westbound plane went into Las Vegas (not Nellis) and the eastbound plane is doing an RON at Gander.

[6foottanker]

Tanker moving a straggler F-35 from Lajes, with a second tanker to keep the F-35 going all the way to Nellis, having already brought the rest out to Beaufort earlier in the week.

[Pontius Navigator]

BEagle made a good point about the northern route in winter. One of my last jobs in maritime was to brief the SAROp cover for a Leopard Trail. To give a flavour of the hazard we planned to join the Jaguar crews at Marham for a mass brief. We never made it. We diverted to Waddington and were snowed in.

For the flight across we carried a mix of additional dinghies - for a Victor crew and a Jaguar - and also Containers Land Equipment as there was almost ad much land/ice than sea between Colt and Gander.

[Cat Techie]

In the past I've had some great help out of this site from serving people with current knowledge (pensions, JPA, policy, etc...). Would I ask many of those questions today, probably not for the very reasons BV mentions. And nor would (m)any of my serving colleagues.

That said, it is what it is. It is now more a RBL, VFW, etc than a virtual T-Bar. Not better, not worse, just different.

Long live the mil history forum. :E

I suspect Sharpend is the only person bar BV that gets above FL10 these days on a regular basis. Certainly in the front. I know BV does go a lot higher and way faster. I get my chances in a jump seat ocasionally, like last week. Enjoyed that,, But my place was to shut up and hold the voyage report on take off, climb and final. :) This is a historical forum in the main.